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How many times is Kennen going to start building AD before he gets reworked?

DunkinNoobs··58 votes·3,744 views

Because as far as I can tell, this is the third time this has happened since I started playing the game 4 years ago. This stupid cancer rat constantly manages to claw his way back into the meta, whether as an AP mid, AP top, or even a support or adc. But out of all the incarnations of Kennen, AD on-hit top lane Kennen is easily the worst; it's like laning against a Teemo that's impossible to catch and has hard CC. He's such a dominant lane bully that your viability a top laner these days is heavily determined by whether or not you can survive lane against this guy. Even Jayce, Quinn, and Teemo have the decency to have shitty 1v1 ults in exchange for their lane bullying power, but not Kennen. He's still pick or ban in pro play (literally 100% pick or ban in LCS today) and is extremely obnoxious in Solo Q, and Riot seems content to just let this continue. This champ clearly was not meant to build AD and duel people given his E and his CC but Riot just let's him do it anyway because ?????

117 Comments

Chønklord23 votes

why do you want binary, static builds and champ playstyles?

There's literally nothing wrong with ad kennen;

The problem you and some others here on this thread are having, is ad kennen with frozen mallet.

It would be the same issue with any ranged marksman (ad/ap/hybrid) vs a melee champion.

Either learn to adjust your playstyle, or counter-pick him, or counter the build, or play another ranged champ.

It's ridiculously tiring to constantly see posts about X champion being "broken and OP please nerf ASAP", simply because you and others like you feel as though you've been "cheated" by the enemy because they picked something you have no concept of playing against.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xtUQf3dB,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-06-05T07:20:09.641+0000)

The problem you and some others here on this thread are having, is ad kennen with frozen mallet.

He's a problem well before he gets his mallet. All he needs his Botrk and he's now unduelable by everyone since he does too much damage to fight, has too much sustain to poke down, is too fast to all in, and has too much CC to escape.

Chønklord5 votes

Play Pantheon Gangplank Nasus Swain

to name a few.

Teemo with on-hit bruiser build like kennen completely shits on him.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

It's awfully annoying when people say stuff like "AD kennen is abusing the stun." Like wtf, using his abilities and kit to his advantage is considered abusing?

Spicy Rice1 votes

what they are tying to say, albeit poorly, is that his kit, combined with an ad build, feels like an unhealthy interaction for the game, kinda like old ad soraka, or ap yi, ap rengar etc

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xtUQf3dB,comment-id=001300010000,timestamp=2017-06-09T14:38:23.579+0000)

what they are tying to say, albeit poorly, is that his kit, combined with an ad build, feels like an unhealthy interaction for the game, kinda like old ad soraka, or ap yi, ap rengar etc

Having been around during that time, I would say current Kennen is nowhere near the level of those three. Besides, he was developed to BE an AD champion. He was released during a time when almost no champions had any AD scalings, but he did! On his W!

Doodlzzz21 votes

I feel like people will hate me for this but why not keep Kennen the way he is?

Build variety woooo! AD Kennen is also rlly unique and a different experience from AP Kennen.

Essychu5 votes

its so unique not being able to play the game for 20 minutes as a melee xd

i love uniqueness.

in fact lets buff him because hes so diverse and thats a good excuse to keep him like he is :)

Chønklord5 votes

then dont play ad melee vs kennen.....?

Velzard of Koz11 votes

Because you always have the later pick. Episode of great advices.

Chønklord7 votes

If you picked your laner first, and then they counter-picked you with say, ad kennen, then that's just your draw of bad luck for that game. Then adjust your playstyle for the lane, or ask for ganks, farm under turret, roam if you need to, etc.

League is a strategical game that involves champions who are better against some and worse against others; there's multiple build paths, playstyles, player skill levels, etc.

There is such a thing as being counter-picked and also simply being outplayed by someone better than you. It doesn't take an ad kennen for those things; just simply takes someone with a better champ/build/ability. Could be something as mundane as picking a melee champ versus a ranged champ; so you're going to whine and complain that all ranged champs are broken because of that scenario? Please.

Essychu2 votes

ad kennen counters everyone tho .

it doesnt matter who u pick he has the lane advantage regardless.

Shahamut2 votes

If you can't figure out how to play against him, then just ban him. I can post a video later of me playing against him as Skarner top... my team gets crapped on, but you could at least see how to handle the lane phase:-/

Edit: I think I went like 12/4/??(that is a different skarner game I lost) 6/3/15 That game~~? I'll have to look~~

EDIT 2: if you DO get the chance to counter pick, choose olaf. It's hilariously easy. You should be able to find a solorenektononly video of that matchup

Yaśuo Main2 votes

AD Kennen is literally no different, he just combo's you then AA's and repeat like AP Kennen and deals more damage on auto attacks. Literally the same thing. And Kennen is an AP champion not AD. He has hard CC, that only has to be applied by pressing R, and thanks to AD kennen he can kill you even faster as his AP scales off AD I think, so he'd have almost the same damage as an AP Kennen early game AND deal more damage on AA's. So yeah, "totally not a stupid champion".

SirLapse9 votes

Wrong, his W's AA passive scales off of AD. AP Kennen was based entirely around bursting you via R>W active. Since that got utterly destroyed, AD path is the next option and works great against the current meta.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

{quoted}

I feel like people will hate me for this but why not keep Kennen the way he is?

Build variety woooo! AD Kennen is also rlly unique and a different experience from AP Kennen.

A good AD Kennen is worse to play against than Darius.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like people will hate me for this but why not keep Kennen the way he is?

Build variety woooo! AD Kennen is also rlly unique and a different experience from AP Kennen.

This

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

I think they should embrace his hybrid build and give him some AD ratios but lower his bases and auto range, as well as tone down his CC.

NinjaGuy692 votes

I think they should embrace his hybrid build and give him some AD ratios but lower his bases and auto range, as well as tone down his CC.

Kennen was designed as an assassin, not a fighter. He's just an older champion who needs some sort of minion rework so that hit kit can't be abused with AD builds.

THE RlVER KlNG12 votes

Plenty of champions have since left their intended role, often for the sake of game health. Not all have been successful but sometimes it is necessary.

NinjaGuy692 votes

Plenty of champions have since left their intended role, often for the sake of game health. Not all have been successful but sometimes it is necessary.

Can you provide any such examples?

PrinceVert9 votes

Blitzcrank, Tam Kench, Alistar, Zyra, Nidalee, Evelynn, Graves

Arakadia4 votes

Kayle was supposed to be a fighter but she's more a marksmen mage. That's why she is melee.

Holy Fervor2 votes

She's kind of everything tbh

9kPluzZ7 votes

Build Diversity??? Do you want every champ to only have one build/playstyle? Ap Kennen is still viable

Sp33d Zer06 votes

His core items don't give him much AP anymore so a new build had to pop up for him to maintain viability. I would blame the ap nerfs more than his kit.

NinjaGuy695 votes

It definitely is a problem that needs to be addressed. If an AP champion is building AD, then you know there's an issue. Not sure if they consider it a priority though.

3TWarrior10 votes

not necessarily as there have always been hybrid champs or reverse-stat off-meta builds

such as AD twisted fate

Attack speed thresh/AD thresh

marksman ziggs?

on-hit teemo

If anything, I say this only proves how valuable AD items are. Kennen uses the item because his kit can support them, but would it be any better if they reduced the count of his passive and removed the auto attack function within it, allowing him to pull off easy AP stun-kills?

50000000000000006 votes

"Marksman" Ziggs still built AP. He just went bot lane.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Honestly, they probably need to rework him. Because of how his kit works, he is either too strong, or too weak, with little to no inbetween.

Pierce The Veal12 votes

{quoted}

It definitely is a problem that needs to be addressed. If an AP champion is building AD, then you know there's an issue. Not sure if they consider it a priority though.

He has AD scalings. He's a hybrid with mostly AP scalings.

UnboundHades1 votes

he has a w which deals bonus damage based on your ad not multiple scalings its just his base stats stuns and e can all be abused by ad kennen

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

he has a w which deals bonus damage based on your ad not multiple scalings its just his base stats stuns and e can all be abused by ad kennen

As I said, hybrid. Being able to use your passive isn't abusing a champion like wth. In fact, Kennen wasn't originally developed to be an AP champion. He was developed way back when skills got AP scalings and only autos and some rare abilities (his w) got AD scalings. He was only played AD, then people realized he scaled better as ap and started playing him that way.

Bisaknosp5 votes

lower base as and more as per lvl should fix him

Quepha3 votes

There's nothing inherently wrong with AD builds on Kennen. His W obviously lays the groundwork for that style of play and the 'balance' between physical and magical damage and scaling is a thematic tie he has with Akali.

TwinkiePro2 votes

It doesn't help that his W has a passive that deals bonus damage every few strikes based on AD and dealing magic damage. Making that AP Would likely shut any ad kennen build down.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Honestly I can't think of one ranged top laner that isn't horrible balance-wise Teemo Quinn are pretty self explanatory Kennen as you said Vayne I'd argue she's even MORE self-explanatory Gnar item 3022 Kayle has just had a bad track record; she's getting her overhaul soon Cassiopeia I don't remember her Ryze Bad track record Lissandra basically stops the top laner from doing anything, like what ryze does with his snare Lulu Same with Ryze and Liss. "nope" to top laners with cc while constantly poking them to death Swain Was fine for the most part, actually, but he needs a rework due to being outdated Urgot REwork soon. "ranged"

Sozan51 votes

And the only reason you gave is: "Self-explanatory" or "Bad track record".

I disagree that ranged top laners are horrible for game balance (also, it's unavoidable as long as there are ranged champions in the game), they just require a different playstyle to handle early on in the game (a lot depends on the actual picks too). Mind you, I am biased because I mostly (and by mostly I mean 90%+ games) play Teemo, but I actually used to play melee toplaners a lot back in the day (Seasons 2-5, basically) and I had no problems (except for few matchups, like Garen vs Ryze (not the current one, don't remember which iteration)) - well, at least no more problems than against other melees.

That said, there is a small problem with ranged champs top and that's this thing: item 3022

The slow effect shouldn't be permament, nor should it be applied immidiately with the first auto (at least for ranged champions). So either some kind of multi-hit mechanic (ex. Every third attack (every second for melee) slows the target by 30% for 1,5 seconds), a stacking slow (ex. 3%, stacking up to 10 times, melee stacks three times as fast) or tied to an active (Ex. Using the mallet gives you a 10 second buff that makes your autos slow by 30% for 1,5 seconds. 60s cooldown (halved for melee).).

Troll for Trump1 votes

And the only reason you gave is: "Self-explanatory" or "Bad track record".

Not for all of them. I didn't want to write essays on every single ranged champ, that'd just clog things up. If you want specific champs, list them out.

I disagree that ranged top laners are horrible for game balance (also, it's unavoidable as long as there are ranged champions in the game), they just require a different playstyle to handle early on in the game (a lot depends on the actual picks too). Mind you, I am biased because I mostly (and by mostly I mean 90%+ games) play Teemo, but I actually used to play melee toplaners a lot back in the day (Seasons 2-5, basically) and I had no problems (except for few matchups, like Garen vs Ryze (not the current one, don't remember which iteration)) - well, at least no more problems than against other melees.

The thing is counterpick is never counterplay. Every champ needs a way to get dealt with in-lane, 1v1, at all stages of the game. If you didn't have problems with ranged champs as melee back then, then the people playing the ranged champs were bad; back in those days, ranged champs were even more polarized at top lane. Ever play old Darius vs Gnar, Kayle, or Teemo? GL winning them without the jgler.

That said, there is a small problem with ranged champs top and that's this thing:

The slow effect shouldn't be permament, nor should it be applied immidiately with the first auto (at least for ranged champions). So either some kind of multi-hit mechanic (ex. Every third attack (every second for melee) slows the target by 30% for 1,5 seconds), a stacking slow (ex. 3%, stacking up to 10 times, melee stacks three times as fast) or tied to an active (Ex. Using the mallet gives you a 10 second buff that makes your autos slow by 30% for 1,5 seconds. 60s cooldown (halved for melee).).

Mallets needs to be reworked or removed. It's intended users aren't buying it, and champs are abusing it. Keeping it in the game is a lose-lose scenario.

58697132DEL12 votes

I would say he needs some fixes or adjustments, but dont neuter a different playstyle for no reason other than "I dont like to face it" That is dumb.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

I'm doing it because it's unhealthy AND I dislike it, and there's precedent for doing that sort of thing. Vlad was too strong just stacking health after his rework so they changed him to make him build AP and be squishier. Tank Akali got her reworked and removed that playstyle. Ekko got all his scalings changed because he was building tank. So did Fizz. Fiora had her scaling adjusted so she needed to build AD instead of Titanic Hydra. Maokai literally just had his E nerfed massively because people were just playing him support, maxing E, and building AP. Riot changes champs for unintended, unhealthy gameplay all the time, and AD Kennen most certainly qualifies.

Key word here is unintended. I know you people love to complain about Yasuo but he's doing exactly what Riot intended him to do; you just don't like it.

58697132DEL12 votes

shrugs i beat the only two Kennan i've seen in game since being back easily. One was traditional and one was some AS build. Yeah I think Shift him away from the marksmen build is a good plan, but you still shouldnt cripple an alternate playstyle. In all your examples, those were broken "Play it this way or you're doing it wrong" types, and thus needed fixing. Kennan plays just fine as AP burst as intended, and just happens to ALSO play super well as an on hit AD based build that's been utilized well in this specific meta.

Does it need tuning? Yeah cause it wasn't a specific design intent, but i'm thoroughly against removing a play style that's different just because it does well. It enforces this game as "stick to what's 'right' or just uninstall" and that's pretty dumb.

Sozan52 votes

Okay!

Let's analyze him:

  • First of all, AD (on-hit, really) Kennen has very little success in SoloQ. Taken from champion.gg, his current most popular build (which is exactly what you'd expect from on-hit Kennen) has a whoppin 43% winrate.
  • He can be built on-hit because it was meant to be one of his possible playstyles - it's not uncommon for champs to have several possible builds.
  • Even in LCS, despite high ban rate, he doesn't seem to be all that great. I am actually clueless why they ban him so much, I just googled some of those Kennen games and he didn't do anything extraordinary.

In short - AD Kennen is an intended off-build, that's not out of line. There should be very little to no changes to him.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

The problem is Kennen himself. Endless harass, a solid chunk of which is targeted, along with great burst and mostly unavoidable hard cc. His ult is literally an objectively better Amumu ult.

ProtestantCaesar2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xtUQf3dB,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-06-05T04:32:32.504+0000) His ult is literally an objectively better Amumu ult.

You need the Amumu ult first so that people don't just walk out of Kennen's ult.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

You need the Amumu ult first so that people don't just walk out of Kennen's ult.

"Just walk out" when he can move it, and is also faster than you because of his e. It's better than Amumu's in all 3 categories: More damage, stronger cc, and it can't miss.

Mecha Incognito4 votes

You haven't considered that Amumu has a long range engage to supplement his ult.

If kennen is using his e to keep you inside his ult, he's either had to blow summs for it or you were caught out really hard.

Violet Fields1 votes

We currently have 4 champions that build AD to be more effective then what they should be building, these champions are: Teemo Kennen Evelynn and Nidalee

In all honestly, this needs to change. I'm sick of seeing all these champions who haven't been touched since their released 5-6 years ago and when the people in the meta complain about them they get nerfed. Not only did they get nerfed, but then they secretly use a better build that has almost next to no counter-play when mastered.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

What? Eve and Nid are 2 of the stronger junglers right now and they build both AP. I'll give you the other 2 though.

Violet Fields1 votes

{quoted}

What? Eve and Nid are 2 of the stronger junglers right now and they build both AP. I'll give you the other 2 though.

Evelynn has a terrible early game and I see them build titanic hydra and frozen mallet to make up for that, they wind up being impossible to kill. This works because evelynn's only abilities that deal magic damage are her Q and R. Her Q has terrible base stats and her ultimate doesnt do a % of people's max health it deals a % of people's CURRENT health.

Not only does her E deal physical damage, but it adds on hit effects aswell. If you combine this with the Titanic Hydra and Triforce. Face it, AD is so much better. Plus she has over 3000 health at like 20 minutes.

Now with Nidalee the first item I ever see her build is Phage. She turned that into triforce and goes from there.

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