My thought process whenever I lane against a pantheon.

DunkinNoobs··77 votes·5,806 views

"I sure hope my team is good because I don't get to do anything for the first 15 minutes of the game no matter what champion I pick or how I play."

Can we admit that this is an extremely problematic design in a PvP game? There is literally not a champ you can pick to handle this champ 1v1 in the early game; at best, you can pick something like Malphite and do your best to survive. You still lose, you just lose a bit less. Panth's kit is just too dominant at 1v1 laning early in the game: He has spammable targeted poke that doesn't draw minion aggro, a passive that prevents any sort of retaliation, a targeted gap/closer stun that refreshes said passive, an E that does an insane amount of damage, free crits on low health enemies to nearly guarantee winning close duels, and the ability to take ignite without losing global pressure thanks to his ult.

This champ is practically designed to win any possible lane without real counterplay in exchange for falling off late game, which would be an understandable trade off if late game was a consistent occurrence. Anyone who has played the game recently knows this isn't the case. And it's still bullshit for the person that actually has to lane against this guy. There's literally nothing you can do except try your best to scrape out farm early in the game and hope your team holds out long enough for you to have a chance to impact the game. The worst part is that he isn't even weak to compensate for this toxic playstyle with a 53% winrate overall. He doesn't get any easier to deal with in higher elo either; he actually gets even better with a 55.5% winrate in Diamond+. Yorick got left in the dumpster and eventually reworked for doing the exact same thing that Panth is doing, but Panth is better at it than Yorick ever was.

201 Comments

KoKoboto22 votes

Change this bullshit early game meta first. Then let's check on Pantheon.

DunkinNoobs4 votes

Why do you want to defend Pantheon? What motivation could you possibly have for keeping him the way he is?

Bob the Toastr18 votes

I don't think he's saying that Pantheon isn't currently unfun to play against, I think he's making a somewhat unrelated complaint about all games being very early-focused.

Unreformed Shaco16 votes

I like how they nerfed Urgot many eons ago for doing the same thing in bot lane.

I don't really care for Pantheon though.

Everyone says Riven loses that lane but to date I've never seen it happen. Just E every time he uses Q and watch him oom.

Secretlolz11 votes

Pantheon's key weakness is failing to become fed. There's plenty of champions that deny interactions in lane, and also plenty who focus on surviving harsh enviroments.

Maokai's sustain gets absurd as the game progresses and more spells are thrown into him. Lissandra denies any kind of interaction by pushing with her Q, and every melee engage on her may end up in an easy kill if your jungler is nearby. Karma is very effective at denying interactions and mitigating whatever he manages to do achieve.

Stalinium1 votes

How is heimerdinger? I would imagine (based on your description) he'd to pretty well

Zerenza4 votes

Pretty poorly, it's kind of based on positioning but i'm pretty sure that Pantheon's Spear will one shot his turret's, after that if pantheon is able to leap on to heimer once, he's going to die instantly.

General Esdeath 6 votes

Pick Swain or DrMundo and use Q to farm from max range :^)

AFilthyCaitMain5 votes

Illaoi hue

Salron4 votes

Rumble is actually REALLY good into panth, it's the only champion i've been able to go even against panth on, though i'm not sure how badly the nerfs hit this matchup

Rexxiee4 votes

Jesus the bronze advices in this thread lmao.

Dust14 votes

Mordekaiser actually does pretty well against pantheon. His Q range is the same as your E so everytime he chucks it, E him and the spear will hit the shield AND he takes damage. Also, if he stuns you...well now youre in melee range with mordekaiser and thats not a good thing.

Big Lincoln3 votes

illaoi is a pretty strong pick into him in my opinion, she's very good at counterpoke and winning trades

JavelinJoe1 votes

Panth shits on her pre 6 when he can spam poke her with his Q and she cant easily trade because of her mana costs. post 6 though she is usually better.

Big Lincoln3 votes

hasn't been My experience honestly

Q buffers her through his stun if he tries to all in and if she lands an E he's not gonna be able to contest it

post 6 he's done

Escheton3 votes

Singed +armor runepage and maybe even item 1054 can outright ignore Pantheons damage, and use his great waveclear ability to just downright control the entire lane (you don't actually have to push, you can just last hit).

YumaS2Astral2 votes

I like to use Mordekaiser because you can block Pantheon's Q with his passive shield by using E everytime he uses Q. Mordekaiser has natural sustain too, and decent waveclear. Rush a Chain Vest, and then build a Rylai.

MorgManBasher3 votes

I am surprised people are picking now of all times to complain about pantheon considering doran shield is broken as Hell still and is extremely good item against pantheon.

macromite2 votes

luckily this game isn't actually a 1v1 pvp isn't it.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

If the only solution to a matchup is to have a 2v1 advantage, that's the issue. Don't know how you'd miss that.

macromite2 votes

the solution is lose early or 2v1 him.

Which is only acceptable because even losing against pantheon is winning in the long run, he seariously falls off, and if you are playing a champion that scales even a little bit you will outscale him to hell, even when drastically behind.

He is a champion that was designed and balanced around being ahead of everyone else, and he has so many real problems for it that it balances out.

SweedishGunner1 votes

Would Trynd do well into Panth?

DunkinNoobs31 votes

Eventually. But early on, Trynd can't even CS.

Zerenza19 votes

Trynd is a horrible pick into pantheon, for the first 5 levels of the game if you aren't sitting under your tower, pantheon WILL kill you and he will do it as many times as he want's. Even with your ultimate he can still probably kill you with ease, once you get your crit item's you should be fine but by then he's probably farming your teamates.

nice table2 votes

the fact trynd is a horrible pick into pantheon is probably the reason pantheon has like a 40% win ratio against tryndamere right?

DunkinNoobs2 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hpYFXgKI,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-06-19T10:47:13.846+0000)

the fact trynd is a horrible pick into pantheon is probably the reason pantheon has like a 40% win ratio against tryndamere right?

citation needed.

Zerenza5 votes

https://na.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/top

I prefer to use Op,gg due to it using Korean statistic and changing throughout the patch unlike Champion.gg.

nice table1 votes

the thing with op.gg is that it uses plat statistics, in platinum everyone does their cookie cutter build and never changes anything not to even mention custom runes for the matchup and these are the things that winning against pantheon depends on the most.

Zerenza2 votes

That's a generalization, it's not a fact, you can't prove that every platinum player uses Cookie Cutter builds.

nice table1 votes

of course not all of them, hell i didn't use cookie cutter builds when i was plat but the mass majority of them do and that's what makes the statistics ya know.

Zerenza1 votes

DO you actually have concrete proof that platinum player's mostly use Cookie Cutter builds. Cause i really don't think you do, your experience isn't enough to warrant the entirety of platinum.

nice table1 votes

asking for concrete proof on something that's impossible to provide concrete proof on - well you can ask any streamer or youtuber that has smurfed in plat elo and they will tell you. also my personal experience is more than you have for proof on saying that they don't.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hpYFXgKI,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-19T14:45:26.591+0000)

asking for concrete proof on something that's impossible to provide concrete proof on - well you can ask any streamer or youtuber that has smurfed in plat elo and they will tell you.

If you cannot prove a point that's not the fault of the evidence for not being there, nor the opposition for asking you to provide evidence.

...my personal experience is more than you have for proof on saying that they don't.

It is your claim. It's your job to prove it, not theirs to disprove it. Don't shift the burden of proof.

nice table1 votes

"the personal experience of anyone that has played in the elo isn't enough proof to me i want the statistics that riot won't release" well i guess there's no convincing you bud

HalcyonDweller2 votes

You misquoted me in order to make it easier for yourself to dismiss my argument. That's a 'straw man' fallacy.

Rather than try to support your initial claim you're resorting to trying to discredit or dismiss all opposing arguments.

If you want anyone to believe you you had best present a compelling argument. I'm still open to persuasion, but you won't convince me of anything if all you do is use dirty tricks of argument instead of presenting a properly reasoned case.

Rave Riven2 votes

As a currently high plat/low diamond player that has played about 50 games in low plat this season alone I can assure you that there's no "cookie cutter" shit because its just how the game is, and I will expand:

ADC: Every adc has a few core items and then a few situational, this exists in plat aswell.

Support: Every support has a few core items and then a few situational tank ones, this exists in plat aswell.

Mid: Every mid champ has a few core items and then lane situational and game situational ones, this exists in plat aswell (zhonyas/void staff/qss/a possible tank item etc.).

Jungle: Jungler item, and then maybe somewhat cookie cutter when it comes to junglers, simply because with the current meta junglers they have very specific core builds they go nearly every game, but still some situational in there.

Top: Every top has a few core items and from there its usually situational.

I dont know if this shows why plat isnt all "cookie cutter" builds to you but I strongly disagree with that statement and have never in my games in low/mid range plat elo seen someone that builds the same build every game except for myself on warwick because I love my build and its almost always good, just the order changes (frozen heart vs. gauntlet for example, or maybe a spirit or randuins), but thats a thing on ww for diamond elo aswell if you take a look at warwick one tricks they have a build line they usually follow. Junglers are also an exception imo because having 1 item that you pretty much always buy the same of (jungler item) already makes it harder to change the build around.

Hope this makes sense.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hpYFXgKI,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-06-19T10:47:13.846+0000)

the fact trynd is a horrible pick into pantheon is probably the reason pantheon has like a 40% win ratio against tryndamere right?

Championg.gg says pantheon has a 52% winrate against him. Sounds like pantheon is on the winning end.

nice table1 votes

champion.gg is a meme site everyone knows that. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/counters/pantheon/diamond

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hpYFXgKI,comment-id=00030001000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-19T11:54:42.893+0000)

champion.gg is a meme site everyone knows that. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/counters/pantheon/diamond

All sites I look at indicate that what you said is false. Op.gg, lolcounter, etc..

In short, you're a meme.

Junkο2 votes

Winrate applies for the entire game. Tryndamere eventually scales into an annoying splitpusher that needs to be constantly taken care of, while if Pantheon doesn't close game he is probably one of the worst champions to have on your team.

Lucrativic1 votes

I have a question about countering Pantheon. item 1029 oritem 1054 ?

JavelinJoe1 votes

You are often better off with damage honestly.

Ralanr4 votes

Why?

Danjeng3 votes

Dorans Shield is a pretty good start vs Pantheon. I really don't mind Pantheon at all, but it might be due to my champion choice. His Q takes up a high amount of mana. I play champions who have a high amount of sustain, and I just farm while healing up from poke. He'll be oom by the time I'm half health, and have a small cs lead too, since he's so focused on harassing me. He'll be popping corrupters at full health just for the mana, losing out on the item's efficiency.

My way of dealing with him is to completely ignore Pantheon's existence. Cannon minion low on health and Pantheon trying to zone you off? Ignore him and go for that cannon minion. If you get low on health, recall and buy some more sustain/tank items. Do not stay in lane and try to fight him. Keep repeating and you'll soon be too tanky for him to kill. Eventually, Pantheon's psyche will be so scarred by his inadequacy to kill you, and your neglect of his presence, that he won't even try anymore. Outscale him hard, render him useless and make him wonder what he's doing with his life when he stares at the post game lobby in reflection.

Note that this mainly works for me because my champions have innate healing. This may not work for your certain champs.

DunkinNoobs4 votes

{quoted}

My way of dealing with him is to completely ignore Pantheon's existence. Cannon minion low on health and Pantheon trying to zone you off? Ignore him and go for that cannon minion.

You will get all inned and die if you do this, provided the Panth understands the huge advantage he has. What's to stop him from standing in front of his cannon minion to stop you from doing this?

General Esdeath 1 votes

Cloth, new Doran's shield doesn't block 8 damage and the "20 seconds of HP regen" isn't that great when panth chucks a spear every 6 seconds. Unless he's got longsword 3, go cloth.

Quepha14 votes

doran's shield is absolutely amazing against pantheon

assuming that pantheon actually spams spear off cooldown (which means you are mysteriously standing in his range constantly for no reason), then dshield's passive will recover 12 health between casts, more than the 8 blocked by old dshield.

sardiniii1 votes

But hes played so rarely

DeerGreenwood2 votes

"we shouldn't xray people's bags because contraband is so rare"

More from Gameplay

More by DunkinNoobs