I want to know who looked at pre-rework Zac and thought he needed MORE CC.

DunkinNoobs··157 votes·5,536 views

Seriously, who was it? Whose idea was it to make his Q yet another hard CC, as if his E and ult weren't enough? Whose idea was it to make dodging his E meaningless since he can just Q you afterwards? Whose idea was it to make his ult able to fling you into his tower from the middle of the lane? What idiot actually came up with these ideas? What idiot approved them? Did no one question any of this during internal playtesting? I apologize if I sound extremely salty right now but this is bafflingly bad design to the point where I can't help but ask these kinds of questions. I've been very supportive of Riots reworks the past few years but the Zac and Sej reworks have both been so short sighted that I can't help but wonder if this stuff was even tested before it got shipped. You took the most problematic part of Zac's design and made it even worse. There is nothing you will be able to do to balance this Zac unless you gut his damage or CC durations; that's indicative of terrible design.

P.S. This also applies to whoever thought buffing Nasus' 1v1 was a good idea. Give him even more power where he already lacks countplay; great thinking.

169 Comments

LankPants55 votes

I want to know who looked at pre rework Zac, Sejuani and Maokai and thought that.

Almost everything about the tank rework was terrible, we got terrible tank updates that homogenised the class to an insane degree, one new cancer item in Stoneplate and GA reworked into complete cancer, overall nerfs to most tank items with tanks relying on Stoneplate as a crutch and later tank support items that outclass regular tank items and force all tanks to build as glorified supports.

The only good thing to come from the tank rework is the improved MR itemisation, but that's not at all worth all the other bullshit that's been funnelled into the game as a result of the changes. The game would be better if Riot just rolled back all the "work" they've done on tanks over the last few months.

DunkinNoobs21 votes

{quoted}

I want to know who looked at pre rework Zac, Sejuani and Maokai and thought that.

I want to know why Riot decided to change Sejuani from a carry style tank into a support tank, but that's another thread entirely.

Big Lincoln16 votes

cos riot's slowly trying to remove carries that aren't ranged

flyingbaklava5 votes

Zac was a diver before the rework, so the same thing happened to him. I played him as a carry before, not a support tank, but now I have no choice but to build him full tank and hope my team can follow my plays because Zac does no damage now and relies on his team 100% in fights.

Asayake 5150glow9 votes

{quoted}

Zac was a diver before the rework, so the same thing happened to him. I played him as a carry before, not a support tank, but now I have no choice but to build him full tank and hope my team can follow my plays because Zac does no damage now and relies on his team 100% in fights.

Didn't Zac do a bit too much damage as a full tank before the rework? As in half healthing with E+Q+W?

Elikain2 votes

And you can play him exactly the same way now. Riot didn't remove his scaling nor did they make him into an exclusive tank. The same things he did before are still accessible to him now, even his old Liandry's build. I don't know why you don't play him as a "carry" anymore since i saw people doing the same exact shit as before and now it's even more potent as he has a bit more CC in his kit than he used to.

flyingbaklava3 votes

Ok, let me educate you on Zac since you obviously haven't played him since the rework. Each and every one of Zac's abilities lost damage in the rework. His ultimate lost over 60% of its potential damage, quite possibly the single largest damage nerf any ability in League of Legends has ever had. Liandry's torment is the type of item that relies on high base damage to get the most out of the magic penetration. When Zac lost all that damage, Liandry's became a joke for him. It really just doesn't make sense to build damage on Zac since Zac is a CC bot now. You want to stay alive as long as possible so you can get as much CC off as you can. You really don't have any good options other then to build full tank.

TheDonar12 votes

{quoted}

I want to know why Riot decided to change Sejuani from a carry style tank into a support tank, but that's another thread entirely.

Yes...so much yes. I used to LOVE playing as Sej. Now I feel like she is just there to whip out flails, bump heads with people and pop item 3190 every time hostilities are afoot....then die.

DunkinNoobs12 votes

{quoted}

Yes...so much yes. I used to LOVE playing as Sej. Now I feel like she is just there to whip out flails, bump heads with people and pop item 3190 every time hostilities are afoot....then die.

Don't forget how she "leads" by pressing E after her melee teammates set up stuns for her. Such great leadership. So inspiring.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Leadership comes in different forms you know.

An Undead brat3 votes

But her E really doesn't feel like it's leading, the opposite I'd say, it feels like she's asking you for permission to stun the target so you can engage - feels like less confident Nami...

The5lacker5 votes

That's a pretty asinine complaint, all things considered. A leader grants opportunities to her allies and capitalizes on their work for the benefit of everyone. That's literally how her E works in a nutshell. If anything, that's the one part of her kit that makes totally sense for this "Charge into the fray, inspiring allies to great ferocity" champion.

DunkinNoobs8 votes

It's not asinine because it completely changes how Sejuani plays and not in a good way. New Sejuani plays like a support which is the exact opposite of how she was before the rework. I feel like I'm playing a more aggressive version of Braum on the new Sejuani when she should feel far more like Leona. Hell, the optimal way to play new Sej is to initiate and then kite back and peel the enemy frontline since she lacks the sticking power to keep on the enemy backline. That's support play, not barbarian warlord play.

The5lacker3 votes

So, just to be clear, your argument is "I don't want Seijuani to be doing anything that isn't charging into the enemy team and beating them senseless."? Because I think that's more or less a fair argument... if you're fine with Seijuani losing some of her CC. Because a champion who can wade into the enemy team, stun them all, and then kill them herself? That'd be some broken shit. And it was, when Seij was really good. She was terrifying.

DunkinNoobs10 votes

Yes. Please god lose some CC in exchange for not being so team reliant. Give me anything other than the Braum 2.0 garbage she is now.

The5lacker3 votes

I'd say that's fair. Treat her more like a Juggernaut than a Tank.

DunkinNoobs7 votes

Sejuani being a juggernaut/tank hybrid is the whole reason I played her pre-rework. I played her because she was a tank that could carry with damage and make big plays similar to Amumu. New Sej is a support that can't 1v1 anybody who isn't miles behind, let alone 1v2 people like I was doing before the rework. They decided to take one of the highest dps tank champions in the game and turn her into one of the lowest dps tanks while also gutting her ult, all for that stupid E that doesn't even feel good to use.

TheDonar4 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget how she "leads" by pressing E after her melee teammates set up stuns for her. Such great leadership. So inspiring.

Don't get me started on that. Her new E is depressing. I will grant that the range (or the damage, take your pick) on the old E was probably a little too strong. I remember killing people who were well out of vision with it.

Her rework...she feels more like the team watergirl than the bad ass Viking warlord goddess she allegedly is in her lore.

I Main Swain5 votes

i miss my teamfighting goddess of aoe cc

Sujiren35 votes

Can't wait for that nasus buff to go live. Now ignores 35% armor on the target he es and halfed q cooldown during ult. Won't even have to try and dive carries, to be effective anymore. Just focus who ever is in the frontline with my 600 stacks triforce/ tank build. Good stuff to have on already one of the most braindead champions in the game.

BoilTheOil12 votes

hes kinda shit right now and it doesn't matter if hes easy to play

karolmo10 votes

{quoted}

hes kinda shit right now and it doesn't matter if hes easy to play

He's only shit because of the current metagame. If the meta shifts to splitpushing tanks again he's becaming a real god. With the buff he's gonna be able to 3v1 very easily on late.

Wafflessssss11 votes

He already gets outscaled or bullied into oblivion by other popular top laners. Let this dog have his day.

karolmo4 votes

{quoted}

He already gets outscaled or bullied into oblivion by other popular top laners. Let this dog have his day.

He's supposed to get bullied as a lategame champ. If you don't bully him and let him farm till min 20 he's gonna carry the game.

Big Lincoln9 votes

he's not a late game champ right now though

here's what nasus does with the classic build

get shit on in lane try to do something between 20-30 minutes with your stacks get shit on late game

karolmo3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OI24fqPR,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T17:23:08.366+0000)

he's not a late game champ right now though

here's what nasus does with the classic build

get shit on in lane try to do something between 20-30 minutes with your stacks get shit on late game

*splitpush two-shotting towers late-game

Serika Zero3 votes

Fiora/trinda/camille/jax, etc will also 2 shot you while you try to split push.

That's why nasus isn't to good in late game. He won't win the split push game. And in team fights now adcs has qss to get rid of his slow.

But with the upcoming buffs he really will 2 shot enemy champions that try to stop his split push as just one armor item won't be enough on the split pusher to win the 1v1 vs nasus.

And even tanks won't be able to properly hold him off.

AwesomeGuyDj8 votes

{quoted}

*splitpush two-shotting towers late-game

Theres champs that can splitpush better, while also bringing utility and actual teamfight. Hell, trundle can shred towers with his W attack speed, duel, and be tanky and bring utility in a teamfight.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

He's already on my ban list next patch

flyingbaklava13 votes

As a Zac main, I agree with everything you say here. The rework was a disaster in every way possible. Zac required more skill, had more agency, was more fun to play before, and far less hated. The big mistake with the rework was that they decided to turn Zac from a Diver into a tank. They destroyed my favorite champion in this rework...

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

ac required more skill, had more agency, was more fun to play before,

is it joke ? or do u really believe u bs ?

The big mistake with the rework was that they decided to turn Zac from a Diver

Wasn't a divers to begin.

flyingbaklava6 votes

At my peak, I was a Diamond 1 Zac top/mid OTP. Not only do I have thousands of Zac games under my belt, but I understood him well enough to play him in positions no one else did and made it to D1 doing so. Yes, I am serious and my words carry a lot of weight when it comes to Zac.

Zac required a lot more skill before the rework. To get the most out of your kit, you not only had to land your elastic slingshot, but you needed to land in precise positions in order to get the most out of your follow up ultimate. Now, it does not matter where you land as your ultimate does not care about your position, and if you miss, you can still get a good ultimate off with your stretching strike right after.

He had more agency because he did more damage. Each and every one of Zac's abilities lost damage in the rework (his ultimate lost over 60% of its potential damage). Zac has to rely 100% on his team. If they are doing poorly, it does not matter how good your ultimate is, there will be no one there to take advantage of it. With pre-rework Zac, if you were skillful and patient, you could single handedly turn a game around. That feeling was probably one of the most fun aspects of playing Zac pre-rework. He was a high risk, high reward champion.

And yes, Zac was the quintessential diver. If you look at Hecarim, Vi, and Nocturne, they all have similar CC and play patterns to pre-rework Zac. Dive the backline, try to assassinate the ADC or a mage, while causing chaos in the backline and being difficult to peel and kill. When they drained him of his damage and gave him all that CC in this rework, they changed him from a Diver into a tank. They fundamentally changed who Zac was as a champion.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I understand more ur pov.

He was a high risk, high reward champion.

High risk ?? u were tank as well but dealed more... u just smashed all touches after going in with no tough. low risk high reward.

flyingbaklava3 votes

In Diamond, he was high risk, high reward in teamfights because everything revolved around landing your elastic slingshot and it was very common for people to either dodge or interrupt elastic slingshot. I can't list the amount of times a Thresh Flay or Alistar Groundslam or Trundle Pillar interrupted my Elastic slingshot, and if the enemy team had a Janna or Poppy, why bother even trying to go in. And that is the thing, if you used Elastic slingshot and whiffed, you were exposed as not only was it a large portion of your burst, but it was also how you threatened the backline. Especially in the late game, where tank items don't do much against proper damage itemization. Usually, if you miss your Elastic Slingshot, you had to use your ultimate just to give you the movement speed you'd need to get away or you'd likely die.

There were many games I played which were won or lost on my Elastic Slingshot. If I whiffed at the wrong time, we lose the fight and maybe the game. If I landed it at the right time, we win the fight and win the game. In lower ELO's, it wasn't quite as risky, but in the ELO's I played Zac, he was always high risk, high reward. The changes to the Q and R in the rework made it a lot less risky to miss Elastic Slingshot, though the loss in damage also reduced the reward of landing the perfect one.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

do u hate his rework ?

flyingbaklava3 votes

I want to like it, but I can't. I liked playing Zac like a high risk high reward carry. He is now a team dependent tank. He is a completely different champion and I prefer the old one massively. And, you know what, I would probably still be ok with this rework if his banrate werent 70-80% in the ELO's I play in. I just want Riot to revert his ultimate.

Ravenous Howls10 votes

Nasus's weaknesses are still intact and his 1v1 potential is completely windowed by his ult. He will still be easily kited and easy to escape as before. The Q CDR will just make him back some damage that he lost when his ult used to give him a large portion of AD instead of resistance.

Also, let's be honest, resistances become less valuable as the game goes on due to the fact so many champions top have true damage or can easily make use of BC for shred or already have better shreds in their kits. Nasus needed these changes to solidify his 1v1 and split push play style where he is strongest. He is currently siting at just over 46% win rate which means he needed these changes.

I agree new Zac is problematic and I really thought he was unique and well conceived before the rework. Not sure why he NEEDED a rework...

DunkinNoobs3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OI24fqPR,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-07-24T17:10:30.327+0000)

Nasus's weaknesses are still intact and his 1v1 potential is completely windowed by his ult. He will still be easily kited and easy to escape as before.

Maybe in a teamfight. But we're still talking about the same Nasus that has wither, right? You aren't getting away from that shit 1v1 unless you hop a wall.

Ravenous Howls4 votes

{quoted}

Maybe in a teamfight. But we're still talking about the same Nasus that has wither, right? You aren't getting away from that shit 1v1 unless you hop a wall.

Most of Nasus top lane opponents now a days are highly mobile or tanky. If they build tons of Armor then even a stacked Q will tickle them and negate his healing. If they are super mobile and they know their champion well they will save their mobility for wither and kite back until Nasus runs out of mana.

The changes will make his 1v1 better which has been something he's struggled with for a long time. his low win rate is indicative of him needing these changes.

DunkinNoobs3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OI24fqPR,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T18:04:25.824+0000)

Most of Nasus top lane opponents now a days are highly mobile or tanky. If they build tons of Armor then even a stacked Q will tickle them and negate his healing. If they are super mobile and they know their champion well they will save their mobility for wither and kite back until Nasus runs out of mana.

What on earth are you talking about? What top laner can reliably 1v1 Nasus past 25 minutes?

Ravenous Howls4 votes

{quoted}

What on earth are you talking about? What top laner can reliably 1v1 Nasus past 25 minutes?

Fiora- True damage that is % max health based. Mobility, ability denial and tremendous amounts of free AD with vital.

Shen- % max health damage, energy based, built in effective HP with shields, armor rush heavily destroys sustain early and spirit zones denies Q stacks.

Jayce- Ranged and melee based. Mana sustain with hard CC and poke. Builds straight lethality which destroys Nasus built and ult resistances.

Vayne- % Max health AA's, mobility and builds specifically to kite and destroys immobile killers like Nasus.

AD Kennen- % Max health damage with BotRK, energy based, stuns easily and escapes with lightning rush when withered.

Maokai- Hard and soft CC, %max health damage, pre resistaice sustain based on max HP, Armor rush.

Darius- Free AD bleed passive, True damage, hard and soft CC, Black cleaver rush.

Trundle- Ult steals resistance/health, free sustain passive for enemies dying near him, free SV with Frozen Domain and an AA stealing Q.

Illaoi- Black cleaver Rush, tentacles do % HP damage per hit and heal her for a % of the damage dealt.

Garen- Silence, slow cleanse on Q activation, % armor shred on spin to win, true damage and free passive sustain that is almost as good as warmog's after the buff.

Some of these champions can not maybe out duel him but Nasus won't kill them either unless they massively misplay. Nasus needed more trading power in his ult where he is strongest and the % armor shred on E b/c most of his counters build tanky.

Big Lincoln6 votes

i play a good chunk of these champs you've listed

a farmed Nasus will destroy them for free unless they go into a build explicitly for dealing with Nasus and give up their ability to participate in teamfights just to follow him around and fight him, and sometimes not even then

this will be harder for them after the buff as well

Teridax6810 votes

Okay, putting my Warden hat on for just a sec:

There are times where League can feel utterly frustrating, and experiencing some particularly unfair gameplay can easily lead to questioning the developer's decisions, often rightly so. However, it is possible to disagree very strongly and still be civil, and that can be done by directing your anger at the game and the mechanics that annoy you (which you did), without insulting any actual people along the way (which you also did, and which isn't good). Rioters do read through these discussions, and what would be more useful would be to say "I really don't like this decision you made", rather than "I hate you and think you're an idiot because of this", the latter of which tends to degrade productive conversation and turn people away as a result. It is one thing to ask for accountability, and another entirely to look for a person doing their job to use as a punching bag. The devs have made some pretty awful decisions throughout League's history, and will likely fuck up many more times in the future, but at the end of it we're still all playing League and enjoying it (sometimes), and they do work hard to make sure the game keeps on thriving and improves over time, even if there are some missteps along the way. In the future, please try not to call anyone else on here an idiot.

Takes Warden hat off

I personally dislike many aspects of the Tank Update and its related reworks (including the Galio VGU, which I absolutely hate), because it really feels like that update ended up giving tanks less definition than before. Zac was always a generalist, but now has really strong CC on top of great mobility and decent damage, and the way his kit is built means he doesn't really trade reliability for his strengths either. I think it's fine for him to have lots of CC, because he's a vanguard and so is meant to be good at initiating, but he needs a lot more counterplay: his Q design definitely does feel short-sighted, as the idea likely was that Zac would use a skillshot on his main target and an enhanced auto on a minion or secondary target, but the reverse ended up happening in practice, removing much of the ability's interactivity. His current E is at odds with his new ult, as landing the full knockup prevents targets from moving out of his scoop zone, again removing a lot of counterplay. On top of all this, he still has bland spammy PBAoE damage on W, when that was exactly the kind of feature tanks as a class were criticized for having.

I think Q would end up being perfectly okay if it were two skillshots instead of one plus an auto, and lost the slow effect. W could still be spammy and use the blob collection game, but I'd prefer it to output soft CC instead of damage. E+R is a major conundrum, though, because the only two apparent options are to either nerf/remove the knockup on E (and hardcore Zac fans will hate this because the CC is an important part of landing E), or rework the new ult (which would feel terrible for anyone who just learned to use Zac's new kit). I speak as a non-main and someone with little experience with Zac, so I am very likely to be wrong on this, but I feel Zac's E is a bit too strong for how low on interactivity it can be: sure, if you're channelling out in the open you're giving the enemy plenty of time to react to you, but if you do it from a bush or out of vision range, which often happens with how long-ranged the ability is, and on a jungler too, your target can get completely screwed without really having the appropriate time or options to anticipate it. It's kind of the same problem as with Nidalee's spear, where the mechanic of a long-ranged ability becoming stronger as it travels kinda clashes with the fog of war and limited vision, and can lead to situations where you get chunked without really feeling like you could've outplayed the effect. Because of this, I would support limiting the knockup to 0.5 seconds, and possibly reducing/removing its damage (though that might be overkill).

DunkinNoobs8 votes

{quoted}

Because of this, I would support limiting the knockup to 0.5 seconds, and possibly reducing/removing its damage (though that might be overkill).

Hence the "There is nothing you will be able to do to balance this Zac unless you gut his damage or CC durations" part. In fact, his E was limited to 0.5 seconds when the rework was released; it led to Zac having the worst winrate in the game at around 38% iirc. His damage was also far lower than it is now. All he did was jump in and then be useless since he did no damage and his E CC didn't last long enough for him to ult anybody. Then they decided to buff his Q slow, add damage to it via 2.5% of his own max health, increase the range of it, increase the collision radius of it, spawn an extra blob, and allow him to cast other spells while this is happening. They also changed his E to knock up for up to 1 second based on E's channel time, giving him a reliable E-Ult combo. Nerf the duration of E back down and his ult becomes unusable again. Leave it the way it is and Zac remains broken. That is the textbook definition of shortsighted design.

Velzard of Koz3 votes

This isn't the right question. That Tanks are supposed to be overloaded with CC was general direction of Tank Update. Except for that they promised they will put their damage down, so that they will be crowd-control focused without proper damage. I don't feel change on that part, but that may be just me. However they did generaly want to make Tanks CC-masters.

Big Lincoln14 votes

it's a terrible direction to begin with unless we're moving every tank to the support role

Velzard of Koz2 votes

Yeah I liked the idea which is why I tried using more proper words but the term one would be on his way to is CC-bot, which does sound supporty.

Anyway, I believe they went that way but realized this kills solo-lane potential and so they kept half of the philosophy. My point is that I don't think Zac is the only problem (he may be the biggest).

Big Lincoln11 votes

I never liked it, because there's such a thing as too much CC on one kit. The support tanks get away with this because they don't need high damage for solo laning or killing jungle mobs. Top lane and jungle tanks should have less CC and a little more damage.

The reworked tanks are going to be a nightmare to balance between their massive amounts of CC, their durability, and their still-high base damages

DeadUnborn9 votes

MEanwhile naut has existed for a long time and before he was trash he had hard cc on all his abilities except W, including his passive, yet no one complained. The problem with Zac is that:

Riot didn't realise you can Q minions for reliable CC during laning phase E R combo is too reliable and powerfull All of Zac's CC is not reduce-able with tenacity

It's not that he has a ton of CC, it that the CC Zac has does not have much counterplay and is too powerfull

DunkinNoobs7 votes

{quoted}

MEanwhile naut has existed for a long time and before he was trash he had hard cc on all his abilities except W, including his passive, yet no one complained. The problem with Zac is that:

Riot didn't realise you can Q minions for reliable CC during laning phase E R combo is too reliable and powerfull All of Zac's CC is not reduce-able with tenacity

It's not that he has a ton of CC, it that the CC Zac has does not have much counterplay and is too powerfull

Don't forget that he can jump in from off the screen, making him extremely hard to ward against. Worse, his base damages are high enough that he can max E first which is a complete load of garbage.

As for Naut, I did complain about him, but there are big differences between him and Zac. He has to hit his hook to realistically combo you; it's a fairly easy hitbox to dodge, it's blocked by minions and other champs, it has a long CD, and you'll almost always see him when he throws it. None of those things apply to Zac's E. Naut's ult also gives you time to react to reposition yourself or activate Zhonyas; Zac's R does not given how long his E CC's you.

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