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Why Zyra isn't a mid/flex pick?

Taliyah Rocks·Oct 31, 2016·4 votes·2,225 views

I get that she's a strong support, but i don't get why she isn't considered a mid laner AT ALL. Even when you look on champion.gg she doesn't have mid laner as a secondary role, which even Morgana has.

Why tho? I've always loved Zyra mid, much more than playing her support. I have to admit i rarely play mid, but for the past three seasons she's been my first pick whenever i went midlane. Her auto attacks are great and reliable for CSing (especialy compared to lots of mage who have retardedly bad auto-attack animations that make their life a nightmare at csing) Great waveclear, and relatively safe against all-ins with her CC and ult. Plus she's so great at zoning that she's already safe as it is against all-ins. ''free'' wards with seeds also means she's relatively safe from ganks combared to other low-mobility mages.

Her only real downside is how squishy she is. She's the squishiest champion in LoL, second only to Anivia(who has her passive to save her) and equal to Sona(who has heals and shields.)

So my question here is why isn't she considered a mid laner, at least as a secondary role? I just fail to see why, what makes her kit ''bad'' at being a mid laner?

22 Comments

Privileged JewOct 31, 20163 votes

You only have 34K experience on her. Play her enough, and eventually you will encounter a GOOD silver player who demonstrates why she's unviable mid.

No mobility, highly choreographed movements, CC that travels so slowly that it's sidesteppable even without upgraded boots, etc etc.

She's incredibly squishy, has no mobility, relatively small range on her combos, gets countered by practically every midlaner, especially assassins and ones that outrange her (read : almost every other mage).

She's really only good against midlane ADCs and a few select tank mids like Cho.

VoidStaresBackOct 31, 20161 votes

Well you're not wrong about her dicking on Cho... of course, I can't remember the last time I saw a Cho mid that wasn't me, and ADC mids are a scarcity to begin with, so it's hard to find a situation to counterpick a champion with Zyra.

Privileged JewOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well you're not wrong about her dicking on Cho... of course, I can't remember the last time I saw a Cho mid that wasn't me, and ADC mids are a scarcity to begin with, so it's hard to find a situation to counterpick a champion with Zyra.

Yeah... in retrospect, there are a few mages she can bully fairly well. Ryze, Kennen, and Brand come to mind. There are just so many better options, especially when you consider how gankable she is.

Sniper 0Oct 31, 20162 votes

People don't like to venture outside of the established meta and she does the job just as well from bot lane. You put support or fill/mid you're getting support. SO it's honestly just easier that way. That said, I love playing her mid when I get the chance and I don't feel like trying a new mid laner.

MisterHealYoGirlOct 31, 20162 votes

All of her skills are really good at creating a 'don't mess with me zone'. This makes her good as an aggressive support, since she can scare your opponents off of CS and threaten divers. The reason that she's not typically played mid is that she doesn't have any really good ways to get opponents INTO her zones; her root and ult are both very slow and unreliable, even with Rylai's on plants.

tl;dr She's good as a support because your opponents have to stay out of her zones, meaning that your ADC can hammer away on your enemies. As a midlaner, if your enemies stay out of your zones you can't really contribute; you're doing the same job as support Zyra but using up a third of your team's farm instead of having a FQC.

Taliyah RocksOct 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

All of her skills are really good at creating a 'don't mess with me zone'. This makes her good as an aggressive support, since she can scare your opponents off of CS and threaten divers. The reason that she's not typically played mid is that she doesn't have any really good ways to get opponents INTO her zones; her root and ult are both very slow and unreliable, even with Rylai's on plants.

tl;dr She's good as a support because your opponents have to stay out of her zones, meaning that your ADC can hammer away on your enemies. As a midlaner, if your enemies stay out of your zones you can't really contribute; you're doing the same job as support Zyra but using up a third of your team's farm instead of having a FQC.

I haven't considered that. At my elo (silver) my enemy laners often end up within reach which allows me to makes plays and get kills despite her slow CC, but at higher elo when people don't make these kind of mistakes, i guess it makes all the difference.

Makes me almost glad i'm only silver xD

PopCorn Chick3nOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xrljo2bU,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-31T06:17:27.622+0000)

I haven't considered that. At my elo (silver) my enemy laners often end up within reach which allows me to makes plays and get kills despite her slow CC, but at higher elo when people don't make these kind of mistakes, i guess it makes all the difference.

Makes me almost glad i'm only silver xD

Actually I tried her in mid in diamond elo and she's a lot harder to get fed compared to other mid laners. It's probably because of her slow/unreliable cc and damage. Her old Q used to have a bigger hitbox and range plus damage to poke down enemy but now the new shape probably take her out of mid completely. If you compared her with syndra or orianna, you can see that their cc and damage are a lot more consistent and easier to put out if you mastered them. Syndra can set up her stun and kill the enemy is one rotation, and the stun is pretty easy to hit if she set up the ball and the enemy doesn't aware of it. Orianna can set up her ball close to the enemy to pressure or hard poke the enemy low enough to get the kill. Zyra E is one of the slowest ability to land and it's just really easy to dodge unless you predict the enemy movement pattern. Her R is not reliable because it takes 2 second for the knock up to happen, unless you maxed E first which no mid laner do that. She's a lot easier play as a supp though because you have adc to back you up if you missed E and your base damage if pretty high if you add the plants damage in for a supp.

VekknaOct 31, 20161 votes

Virtually every decent Zyra maxes E first, and I think that includes literally every Zyra 1-trick in Master+.

LimmieOct 31, 20161 votes

Her biggest problem is the high cooldowns on her w, since that's the only way she can be proactively aggressive. She has very clear and narrow windows to make plays that don't rely on the enemy making a mistake and wandering into your zone. Experienced players won't make those mistakes, and can play around your W windows.

DarkRitualOct 31, 20162 votes

She can mid just fine.

She just isn't a good META pick right now.

Taliyah RocksOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She can mid just fine.

She just isn't a good META pick right now.

That's my opinion too, but website like op.gg and champion.gg don't even list midlane as her secondary role, which i find surprising, especially since other supports like Morgana and Zilean have mid lane as a secondary role. From those stats also, over 92% of her match are played as a support role.

I've even had multiple people frown down upon me as i selected Zyra mid, stating that she's a support.

She was released as a mage, ans played as a midlane mage for a while, and just because she became a mainstream support nobody recognizes her as a mid anymore?

Skia AsteriOct 31, 20162 votes

Most people who play her mid are probably Zyra mains who likely queue as mid & support and nearly always end up in the support role.

If you look under champion analytics on op.gg for Sona the people it considers to be the best Sona players, those high on the list play her mid lane and support. I expect the same is true of Zyra .

LimmieOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xrljo2bU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-10-31T12:19:05.581+0000)

Most people who play her mid are probably mains who likely queue as mid & support and nearly always end up in the support role.

I know this to be true because that's how it is with me.

That said, the nerfs on her seed cooldowns really hurt her ability to go toe to toe with most midlaners. She's not bad, but she isn't great either.

xtratalentOct 31, 20161 votes

Shes one of those "supports" that are supposedly supports (cough cough Sona cough cough) but play like mids. Really its more of a sheep effect where everyone just goes with it

VekknaOct 31, 20161 votes

As you can see, I'm a Zyra main. I play her Mid, Top, and Supp. Here's a quick rundown:

MID

Typical build order: item 3098 item 3285 item 3020 item 3136 item 3151 item 3001 item 3135 replace frostfang with item 3165 , item 3030 , or item 3092 (if against stealth threat).

Situational: item 3152 item 3116 item 3157 item 3742 item 3512

Hard matchups: Ahri Diana Velkoz Syndra

Privileged JewOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As you can see, I'm a Zyra main. I play her Mid, Top, and Supp. Here's a quick rundown:

MID

Typical build order: replace frostfang with , , or (if against stealth threat).

Situational:

Hard matchups:

Hard matchups Ahri Anivia Cassiopeia Diana Ekko Fizz Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Lissandra Lux Malzahar Orianna Syndra Taliyah Talon Varus Velkoz Vladimir Viktor Xerath Zed Ziggs

Yeah

VekknaOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Triple K Maf1a,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xrljo2bU,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-10-31T17:31:49.095+0000)

Hard matchups

Yeah

For most of those matchups, how you play them is the difference between them being easy or hard. For example:

Cassiopeia Poke her a lot at levels 1-2. Run MS quints. Save an EQ for when she lands a poison, and she can't stick to you. All-in her at level 5 with ignite for a kill. Shove lane to force her OOM. Farm passively and let her push wave after each of her buys. Rank E>W>Q

Anivia Farm around her, dodge Qs, and keep your distance. Rush Luden's to shove waves and out-roam. Rank E>W>Q

Malzahar Bully him super hard from 1-5. Use plants to keep his passive off. Free gold before 6. Free kill when his ult is down.

Lux MS quints. Pre-6 you win every trade EWQW if she tries to AA you ever. Rush Luden's, dodge her shit, and all-in her the second she misses Q. You have complete wave control. After 6 it's a skill matchup, but you have dps and scale better into late game unless she gets fed off snipes.

Leblanc This is only a hard matchup for a few levels, like 2-6 where you have to CS with plants. Once you finish Abyssal or Guise + Negatron, she will die with you if she all-ins. At 2-3 items you shit on her and win the game.

Taliyah Not hard at all.

Lissandra You win before 6. Poke hard early. Run cleanse or buy QSS and you win after 6 unless she's super on-point with exploiting vision for surprise ganks.

Orianna Skill matchup. You have poke and range advantage, but she'll win most 1v1 all-ins. You're stronger in team-fights.

Ekko I'll give you this one. He can be really hard since you can't do anything but react to him. This matchup is about biding your time and baiting him into outplaying himself. That's actually pretty easy to do a lot of the time, so I don't consider him hard except in top lane.

Kassadin Not hard. Lane with caution after 6 until you have a complete item. You should have a kill on him before 6. Shove wave after 6 to prevent roams.

Katarina She's extremely easy if you know her power spikes and how to deal with bounces. Fall back during those windows and go aggro the rest of the time. Very easy to bait into over-extending by throwing an E and dropping a QWWR behind her as your jungler goes in. Even without ganks, she really struggles to stay healthy in lane due to incessant Q poke.

Zed Zyra is one of the best mid mages to go against Zed because her mana costs are extremely low, you can CS well outside his Q range, and her damage/mana aren't completely fucked by a Zhonya's rush. He can be hard, but it's not hopeless.

Talon Ditto Zed except easier lane and harder post-lane.

Fizz Ditto Zed for the most part. He can kill you pretty easily, but you'll almost always trade kills on the counter-engage. You can often get a kill pre-6 At 3 items, he'll suicide on your ulted plants while you're in stasis.

Ziggs Skill matchup. He wins poke, you get a kill if you land an E.

Varus Ditto Ziggs

Viktor Skill matchup in his favor. It's not hard to survive lane, but he can punish any aggression. Rush Luden's if you want to duel and follow his roams, or rush Morello to match his waveclear and force him to play passive.

Xerath Ditto Ziggs. Your advantage is that you can cc him through the wave, and he can't stun. You can also bait the E and flash > EWQWR Ignite for a free kill through his barrier.

Vladimir He's hard to judge, but he's not really a threat until he's fed. He's a rare case where you rush Morello because you have to literally spam him with plants to get him in kill range, the GW is actually useful, and you need the mana to keep up with his lane sustain. He's super hard to kill 1v1, but it's not hard to win the farm lane. Go Morello if you aren't getting help. Rush Luden's if you have a jungler who will burn his puddle for you. Get Void Staff first or second item if you see him build a spectral cowl.

But, yeah...

Ahri Fuck her. You can get a kill at level 2-3, and that's pretty much it. You win after lane, so just rush item 3092 and miss as many CS as needed to not die.

Syndra This is actually a skill matchup. You really bully her hard early. After 6, you can win by out-playing her. Fake roams and bush-camp her route, bait with pink wards, etc. She dies if you get a combo off (usually through Zhonya's), and you die if she hits a stun first.

EcchiOtakuTMOct 31, 20161 votes

Zyra sucks mid because she's far too squishy, and since her damge is tied more to plants than abilities it hit her waveclear a lot more.

Thus she'll never shine more than support now.

AbyssalSino Nov 1, 20161 votes

All the arguments to why Zyra is not a viable mid laner is completely false and irrelevant. This is coming from a Zyra (MID) main who has over 2K games only on the midlane on several different accounts. Zyra mid does exactly what she does on the botlane but on a much larger scale. She completely zones out the enemy midlaner and the leftover seeds spread around the lane from her passive is enough to get her a double if she happens to get ganked.

The only reason she's considered a support is because of the LCS puppets who can't think for themselves, it's the same people that once said Miss Fortune support is a troll pick and now play it themselves after seeing it on the LCS. Simple clueless dogs.

The only reasn she was brought to the botlane is cause her burst is intimidating, the seeds lying on the ground gives the enemy little to no chance to go all in and if they happen to go in almost every fight is bound to end in her favour cause of the plants. She can completely zone out the enemy botlane on her own and keep the ADC safe. The reason AND only reason she's not played alot in the midlane is cause of her lack of mobility, thats it. She is a mage brought to the botlane, not a support.

@MISTERHEALYOGIRL If you're sitting in a lane as mid Zyra and waiting for someone to dive your seed zone so you can do something, then sir you're doing something wrong. She's a burst/poke mage.

@POPCORN CHICK3N Before making false assumptions first learn to hit an ability. Just cause you can't hit her Q doesn't mean she's an unviable midlaner. Lmao.

@Limms Her Q is what lets her play aggressive. Not E.

PopCorn Chick3nNov 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=AbyssalSino ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xrljo2bU,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-11-01T02:38:16.018+0000)

All the arguments to why Zyra is not a viable mid laner is completely false and irrelevant. This is coming from a Zyra (MID) main who has over 2K games only on the midlane on several different accounts. Zyra mid does exactly what she does on the botlane but on a much larger scale. She completely zones out the enemy midlaner and the leftover seeds spread around the lane from her passive is enough to get her a double if she happens to get ganked.

The only reason she's considered a support is because of the LCS puppets who can't think for themselves, it's the same people that once said Miss Fortune support is a troll pick and now play it themselves after seeing it on the LCS. Simple clueless dogs.

The only reasn she was brought to the botlane is cause her burst is intimidating, the seeds lying on the ground gives the enemy little to no chance to go all in and if they happen to go in almost every fight is bound to end in her favour cause of the plants. She can completely zone out the enemy botlane on her own and keep the ADC safe. The reason AND only reason she's not played alot in the midlane is cause of her lack of mobility, thats it. She is a mage brought to the botlane, not a support.

@MISTERHEALYOGIRL If you're sitting in a lane as mid Zyra and waiting for someone to dive your seed zone so you can do something, then sir you're doing something wrong. She's a burst/poke mage.

@POPCORN CHICK3N Before making false assumptions first learn to hit an ability. Just cause you can't hit her Q doesn't mean she's an unviable midlaner. Lmao.

@Limms Her Q is what lets her play aggressive. Not E.

You sound salty as hell and I do play her mid when I get a chance. If you can't take other people opinions about her being good or bad mid laner then stay away from the board. Trust me, any experience player can dumpster mid Zyra if play correctly, especially assassins and my landing is on point as a Zyra main. The new shape just make it a lot harder to hit compared to the old one. You can't say Zyra new Q is easier to hit compared to Brand W (old Zyra Q hit box). Go ask Melyn or other high elo one trick pony Zyra main about the new Q. The only good shit about her new Q is to summon plants and that's it.

AbyssalSino Nov 16, 20161 votes

"Any experienced player can dumpster Zyra mid if play correctly".

Not true, a champion is as good as the person playing it. Any experienced Zyra can dumpster anyone if played correctly, same goes for other champions. Any Soraka mid can dumpster anyone in the midland if played correctly.

It's sad how you play a champion so much and still haven't discovered the true potential. Just cause you get tossed around in the midlane as Zyra doesn't mean everyone does. Her new Q is hard to hit, yes. Impossible? No. Do i win lanes with Zyra mid? Most likely. The only champions i struggle against is Yasuo and Leblanc. You should play her mid more often, eventually you'll find it easier to land your Q.

Taliyah RocksNov 2, 20161 votes

OMFG i'm done, f*ck this game

Okay not really but i'm dumbfounded

MF support was played TWICE in worlds, and she's now noted as a secondary support.

But NOOOOO Zyra who was release as a midlaner mage and played like this for a whil is 100% support.

wtf

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/758299dfgdsgdsfg.jpg

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