Is Riot out of their mind?

Taliyah Rocks·Feb 28, 2018·128 votes·12,972 views

ADC favoritism much.

His winrate went from 53% to 51% since his last nerf. He's not quite as strong, but he's still strong.

...and currently on PBE:

Twitch Contaminate (E) base damage increased from 20/25/30/35/40 to 20/30/40/50/60

HOW can they EVEN CONSIDER buffing a champion that's ALREADY "too" strong and has been plaguing the Rift with his cancer kit???

Edit: I checked on Champion.GG which shows his winrate to be 51% in the adc role. Other websites show a lower winrate.

Even if his winrate is a bit lower, him getting buffed almost instantly while Riot has been ignoring other champions that have been struggling for a long time feels terribly wrong. I just think it's a shame that Riot doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about the dominance of lategame hyper carries.

154 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 28, 201838 votes

PTA changes didn't land as we wanted. For champions that were affected by the set of changes more than intended, we are cutting back on some of their nerfs. Twitch is one of these. Shyvana is the other. Imo, the problem with this situation is that we didn't land the changes as intended in the first place much moreso than that we're following up on that miss. The primary improvement to be made here is to get it right on the first pass. We're not always going to, but we should definitely aim to.

Work on hyper carries, and ADCs more generally, does need to be done.

O B Wan KenobiFeb 28, 201829 votes

you guys miss all the time. its a regular thing

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 28, 201842 votes

Yep! We should get better at that.

AirKingNeoFeb 28, 20187 votes

By the grammar in this situation, it sounds like you mean getting better at missing...

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 28, 201843 votes

Nope! We should get worse at that.

ZepperFeb 28, 201810 votes

Either way, you guys do a wonderful job, and I feel like you guys are looking too much at the little details compared to the big picture due to a portion of player's feedback being avaricous.

Keep up the good work.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 28, 201826 votes

I think managing to strike a good mix between hitting the little details and working on the big picture at the same time is important in League, but also pretty damn hard. Too much detail stuff and we never answer any big questions, just cycle strong/weak champions around. Too little detail stuff and it feels like we're not responding to the needs of players at an appropriate rate.

JmmanMar 1, 20183 votes

maybe the issue is WHICH champs you keep looking at. It seem to be the same ones that are always in an ok play. Then low played champs ( Fiddlesticks Karma etc) when people talk about fix you NEVER listen to the people that play them. A lot of time the "up votes" and Riot is listening to people with ZERO games played.

Try looking and the low played and low win rate champs. Because a champ doesn't have a high win/play rate because he is "COOL". Its because they are stronger and easier to win.

LOL the big picture.... fiddle mains have been waiting YEARS on the big picture. I'm sure others have too. Maybe THAT is the point.

CleverCactusMar 1, 20183 votes

It's okay, aiming is hard when your eyes are on the side of your head!

Twitch

5000000000000000Mar 1, 201812 votes

Respect for responding to that comment with grace

EkyonKunMar 1, 201816 votes

RiotRepertoir taking it like a man.

+50 Respect.

SalsonFeb 28, 20189 votes

But aren't you buffing PTA and nerfing Footwork? Won't he be S tier again.

Also, why can Ashe and MF sit in the gutter, why a less healthy champ gets buffs.

Chromatic EagleFeb 28, 20185 votes

Are they in the gutter, or is everyone else too strong?

Somebody Love MeFeb 28, 20184 votes

^THIS. Ashe is the most balanced ADC right now. She also doesn't abuse crit the same way everyone else does. In fact, she makes crit look balanced because it just turns into slows for kiting, and tenacity actually affects those. (Though there's so much tenacity that her kit is kinda invalid, but no one notices thanks to all the knockups and damage....something she doesn't have)

Whenever Ashe is meta, she doesn't receive nearly as much complaints about game health. I hope to god they don't buff her and add to this power creep mess. I just want them to nerf the other ADCs (and by extension, tanks) to a reasonable level.

Tomoe GozenMar 1, 20182 votes

Ashe really isn't alright at the moment. The problem is that her Q needs time to stack before she can use its AS steroid and more damage buff for herself and that takes too long to get, compared the easily accessible steroids and damage from the usual Marksmen. Ashe's Q needs to drop one AA from the activation requirement or that Ashe be allowed to stack her Q from her W champ hits, like it used to work when she was updated.

Jinx HunterFeb 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

PTA changes didn't land as we wanted. For champions that were affected by the set of changes more than intended, we are cutting back on some of their nerfs. Twitch is one of these. Shyvana is the other. Imo, the problem with this situation is that we didn't land the changes as intended in the first place much moreso than that we're following up on that miss. The primary improvement to be made here is to get it right on the first pass. We're not always going to, but we should definitely aim to.

Work on hyper carries, and ADCs more generally, does need to be done.

and what about Xin??? He didn't deserve those nerfs either and now it shoe horns him into getting PtA and ruins his keyston diversity.

RiotRiotRepertoirFeb 28, 201814 votes

According to the data I've seen, Shyv and Twitch took about 3x the hit Xin did in 8.4. That's why he wasn't given the same treatment. Happy to be convinced otherwise.

Hexs FortuneFeb 28, 20189 votes

{quoted}

According to the data I've seen, Shyv and Twitch took about 3x the hit Xin did in 8.4. That's why he wasn't given the same treatment. Happy to be convinced otherwise.

Some of us liked using Glacial Augment on Shyvana. Nerfs to Shyvana's numbers to compensate for Press the attack made PTA even more mandatory

Jinx HunterFeb 28, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lbF8oUGQ,comment-id=0015000300000000,timestamp=2018-02-28T23:32:45.253+0000)

Some of us liked using Glacial Augment on Shyvana. Nerfs to Shyvana's numbers to compensate for Press the attack made PTA even more mandatory

Same with Xin, Some Xin players Liked Electrocute better then PtA. With his nerfs, like Shyvana. He is shoehorned even harder into PtA.

ProfirixMar 1, 20183 votes

I have to agree with you on this one. Shyvana got plastered by the nerfs on top of the Press the Attack changes. It put her in a position where if she doesn't take Press the Attack, she effectively gimping herself. I know Riot has a stance on forcing champions to have to play a certain way (Keystones included), so I was pretty sure you they were going to revisit Shyvana.

She is a champion that excels at 2 things: applying damage and controlling objectives. The nerfs to Q and her scaling AD just made her feel terrible when trying to clear jungle. I get that she shouldn't come out super healthy, but she shouldn't almost die every time on the first clear.

AMYS GRAVEMar 1, 20184 votes

The convincing i'm seeing here is you're linking champions to keystones already, which means the new system is beginning to be solved. How long until the next iteration of the pre game systems?

TelosenMar 1, 20183 votes

By nerfing Xin you guys forced all xin builds to play PTA in order to stay playable.

however the biggest flaw with the nerf is that you gutted his late game power. If I recall the point of his rework in the first place was to give him more options in team fights, and to give him a stronger identity late game. Now his winrate goes down to sub-50% as the game goes on, most likely due to the damage on his passive being halved.

Xin now needs even more damage items to even come close to killing a carry who has peel/shields.

Xin is overbearing because of his early game power. So why did you guys nerf his late game even more than you nerfed his early game?

All you guys needed to do was keep the 80% scaling and make changes to bring his early game insanity in line.

dunder killFeb 28, 201831 votes

His winrate from 53% to 51% since his last nerf.

Where are you getting that from? I'm seeing him lower on every site I checked. Anyway, it's still an overall nerf

DisembarkFeb 28, 201817 votes

Let’s just say it. This perceived “ADC favoritism” is actually just “ADC hatred” from the boards.

When WW has been 54% winrate for a long ass time but not mentioned on the boards. Or Brand... or even the Sion posts mentioning HOW FUCKING BUSTED he is get barely any upvotes.

Breaking News: Just cause a champion is well designed doesn’t mean they can’t be busted numbers wise.

SteelflameFeb 28, 201822 votes

Except plenty of people on the boards mention Warwick as "Why the fuck is he untouched."

The others just enjoy the fact they have a bruiser they can play fairly successfully. I personally can't wait for Warwick to get his much deserved nerfs.

DisembarkFeb 28, 20187 votes

Have not seen it mentioned/no thread hit the front page. How does a champ have a 54% win rate for a while now not get a single top thread, but Kog getting half his nerf reverted gets 3 hot threads.

Yeah...

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 28, 201830 votes

48% winrate, check your data. Also, still overall nerf to his previous state. The problem with this boards is you dont seek balance you seek revenge, gladly letting any champ you dont like to be gutted to satisfy your "sense of justice".

T4underboltFeb 28, 20186 votes

He didn't get gutted. This was barely a nerf. 99% of his DMG came from ultimate right clicking out of nowhere. The lower win rate is the consequence of whiny twitch mains. Even if nerf were -1 base DMG his winrate would fall.

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 28, 201825 votes

Your logic is so screwed by your hatred you are spewing bullshit. "Twitch winrate dropped by 5% in 1 patch because of whiny twitch mains". Wtf does that even mean? You really think a whopping 5% drop is some sort of placebo? So far the only people whining nonestop are people like you exaggerating facts and manipulating details to somehow make you seem right. I've never seen someome argue a 5% winrate drop is because of the said champ's main whining.

Teridax68Feb 28, 201812 votes

Placebos in League can and in fact did happen before. A Rioter told at one point how a patch note accidentally mentioned a nerf to Vladimir, but didn't actually change anything about him: after the patch hit, both his play rate and win rate dropped by several percentage points, even if he was in exactly the same state as before. This is one of the reasons why Riot generally waits for at least one patch cycle to let players adjust to a champion's power adjustments. I'm not saying this is what's happening for Twitch, or that "whiny mains" are the reason his win rate dropped to 48%, but I wouldn't discount the psychological impact of such a change, particularly since Twitch has remained virtually untouched for quite some time until last week.

TheThundersRoarFeb 28, 20183 votes

Also Graves during his reign in season 6. His Q got nerfed by 20 damage at rank 5. People just stopped playing him.

Of course he came back next patch because he still killed anyone in 2 autos while being tanky as shit. But placebo.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 28, 20183 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Twitch/ADC/

50.39 % wr/6.69 % pr

BestPudgeNAFeb 28, 20186 votes

{quoted}

48% winrate, check your data. Also, still overall nerf to his previous state. The problem with this boards is you dont seek balance you seek revenge, gladly letting any champ you dont like to be gutted to satisfy your "sense of justice".

Twitch is an ADC, there is normally one ADC on each side and it always brings them towards 50%, so win rates for ADC only tell if they're strong vs other ADCs. It's not really good info about if ADCs are balanced compared to other roles, spoiler alert they're OP atm. Like even Jhin is actually strong right now and he has the lowest ADC win rate... he's just well worse then the other ADCs.

It's not justice to be buffing any ADC right now.

RaiyzaFeb 28, 201811 votes

And no nerfs to his ultimate.

Still going to be permabanned.

zacktootallFeb 28, 201810 votes

esports.......

DisembarkFeb 28, 20185 votes

Twitch barely picked in competitive even when he was 54% w/r.

Weak laning, bad sieging, and has to hard commit fights around his ulti cooldown when most competitive fights are a lot more skirmishy and in/out.

His only benefits - his cheeseing with stealth and melting teams in a PURE 5v5 is heavily negated in competitive.

MagicFlyingLlamaFeb 28, 201810 votes

They just nerfed that thing last patch, wat.

vgamedudeFeb 28, 201810 votes

Meanwhile zoe had a lower winrate and got absolutely gutted, ryze has a lower winrate and is getting nerfs too.

It's BS, adc favoritism is so obvious. Jhin is also getting huge buffs and is at above a 47 percent wr.

VoraciousXFeb 28, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile zoe had a lower winrate and got absolutely gutted, ryze has a lower winrate and is getting nerfs too.

It's BS, adc favoritism is so obvious. Jhin is also getting huge buffs and is at above a 47 percent wr.

Jhin is the only fair ADC and the buffs are barely anything. Level 18 with a full build it's like 10 extra AD from passive and 50 extra damage from his Q. He's also like the 3rd worst ADC last I checked right now. Though I think that's because people are still building him lethality and going fleet footwork(I honestly think the 100 extra AD from Lethal Tempo is far better). As for the every form of damage being able to be rooted with W, it honestly should have come out with Jhin. It always felt like it should have been that way from the start, and it won't effect much aside from Q bounces(because you're not gonna ult and then root, they should be dead by the time your ult ends).

LDG JiamblesFeb 28, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Jhin is the only fair ADC and the buffs are barely anything. Level 18 with a full build it's like 10 extra AD from passive and 50 extra damage from his Q. He's also like the 3rd worst ADC last I checked right now. Though I think that's because people are still building him lethality and going fleet footwork(I honestly think the 100 extra AD from Lethal Tempo is far better). As for the every form of damage being able to be rooted with W, it honestly should have come out with Jhin. It always felt like it should have been that way from the start, and it won't effect much aside from Q bounces(because you're not gonna ult and then root, they should be dead by the time your ult ends).

I've had a lot more success playing Jhin with Arcane Comet. Taking Arcane Comet for the poke in lane, Manaflow Band for Q spam, Celerity for some extra MS, and Scorch for even more lane poke. Then just take whatever you want in Precision.

The Moral PotatoFeb 28, 20182 votes

That's generally what I do. I'm definitely a fan of comet for early game poke and the manaflow band is nice to get a free Q or W off. I'm not sure what the best build is currently but whenever I play him now I just build 100% crit. It's pretty fun and the extra move speed that synergizes with Celerity works pretty well. My fav build is IE, Shiv, RFC, Swifties (or CDR boots), BT, and Essence Reaver.

TwitchInMyPantsFeb 28, 201810 votes

https://na.op.gg/champion/twitch/statistics/adc

http://www.lolking.net/champions/twitch#/overview

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/twitch/na

His winrate is 48% high elo, only getting to 51% low elo. Like I don't think he needs the buff, I'll play him even if you guys somehow got him nerfed again, but he's floating around the middle if you take pure averages amongst ELOs and he's around the bottom of adcs at high ELOs. The idea that he's broken on the current patch is straight up delusional lmao

Like champs like WW and Sion have 4%+ more pickrate than him and are floating at a 54% winrate yet you're going on a tie-raid on an adc that was just nerfed while claiming adcs are favorited when plenty of fighters are dominating pickrate/winrate. Maybe they should've given him time to settle to see how the nerf affected him but this hate for adcs ya'll have is exaggerated absurdity

WubbaLubbaDubDabFeb 28, 201810 votes

Riot always kisses the asses of the ADCs that's not news. Inb4 ADC mains downvote

Corrupt BlissMar 1, 20183 votes

I'm a support main and I down-voted :D

JK.

Zed geniusFeb 28, 20189 votes

They are leaving champions unplayable for years but when twitch gets a little bit nerfed they rebuff him straight away Y I K E S

DurzakaFeb 28, 20186 votes

He is actually at 48% win rate, not at 51%.

They are doing the exact same thing they did with Kogmaw. A very MINOR number tweak to bring him back into line

ElohavenFeb 28, 20184 votes

It's still an overall nerf.

Why gut Twitch when Varus is a toxic entity right now?

ThefrostyvikingFeb 28, 201810 votes

Varus is toxic? O_O

He literally does no burst all all as far as i know, only DPS and he is entirely reliant on 1 item to make that work....and the item needs 6 stacks to even work while also being among the expensive ones.

He doesnt have any significant self peel, doesn't go invisis or speedbuff himself, doesn't get range extensions and doesn't do sky high crits either.

You are the first person i ever saw calling Varus toxic O_O

Seen people refer to his damage as strong or top class now with guinso but never toxic.