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Seriously, I don't understand what the counterplay is to Wukong's ultimate

VoraciousX··4 votes·2,755 views

Yeah, I know, he's not amazing, but his ultimate completely turns any fight into a win. Once he gets 6 the only way to fight him is when it's down. What am I supposed to do? Just stay under turret? Because that works in a 2v1 under tower with hard CC and tankiness. Seriously, how are you supposed to play around his ultimate when he has so many abilities to gapclose? I hate any time I see this champion, but he's not worth banning. It's just extremely anti-fun to play against him unless you completely dominated him before he hit 6 and even then his ultimate is a team-wide teamfight turning tool, though my main problem is right around 6. If he's jungle he just gets me right at my tower, I can have dashes, I can have flash, and none of it matters because he has just as much if not more mobility and movement speed. What do I do when Wukong hits 6? Especially assuming he's not my lane opponent and comes after me? They're no friggin getting away from his ultimate, especially now that Riot decided to add friggin Nimbus Cloak(to the sorcery tree of all things, because that's the tree for divers). Every time a Wukong has wanted to use his ultimate to kill me, he has always gotten his way, no matter how the hell far away from him I am.

11 Comments

Woodakoodashooda4 votes

Well, first off, the damage to the ult is not at all impressive. He deals more damage with an e-auto-q-auto combo than he does with the full duration of his ultimate. It's used for its knock up and the movement speed buff. Against single targets, a good Wu would ult just long enough for the knock up and then end the ult for a series of autos and another combo.

As for "counterplay", you want CC (as with most things). Snare or root or stun and he's stuck in place spinning around. Slow him enough and he won't be able to get at all or most your team in a team fight.

Also, don't cluster for team fights. It's like fighting Amumu. You want to be together for a team fight, but not so close to one another that an AoE ability spells doom for all of you.

Also, armor. Wukong is all about AD scaling. Without AD, he basically hits you with all the deadliness of a blanket. Build some armor and it will allow you time enough to survive him to either counterattack or make an escape.

And wards. Wu often engages using his decoy for the briefest moment of invisibility. But its duration is so short that he has to engage from a nearby brush to optimize its effectiveness. SO WARD!

Vlada Cut1 votes

Push him away from you or cc him.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Okay... seems like nobody really replied to you seriously.

I don't understand what the counterplay is to Wukong's ultimate

The counterplay... just walk away and cc him. Your issue isn't his ult, but his E > Q > R. They're no counterplay to this (they're some spell like, Janna R or lulu ult... but as u describ him, i think you would already be dead at when knockedup). When he's on you its to late.

Yeah, I know, he's not amazing, but his ultimate completely turns any fight into a win. Once he gets 6 the only way to fight him is when it's down.

no. Actualy his lv6 is weak af. But when you make post like this you should say what's you play. i assume you play a mage or anything mid if you think Wukong 6 is strong. So :

  • don't get caught by his transition lv6 (mainly when you're lv5)
  • abuse of your range
  • focus on your positionning. If you play a bruiser or any skirmishers, Wukong lv6 isn't scary.

Because that works in a 2v1 under tower with hard CC and tankiness.

???? Wukong isn't tanky

Seriously, how are you supposed to play around his ultimate when he has so many abilities to gapclose? I

many ??, only E. his W only last 1,5 sec, you won't go so far with it.

I can have flash, and none of it matters because he has just as much if not more mobility and movement speed.

They're no assassins with less mobility than Wukong. If you are in theses situations its due to your positionning & selfawarness.

The best way to learn how to play against Wukong is to play him, go make one or two normal game with him.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xod9JlY7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-08T13:08:34.767+0000)

Okay... seems like nobody really replied to you seriously.

The counterplay... just walk away and cc him. Your issue isn't his ult, but his E > Q > R. They're no counterplay to this (they're some spell like, Janna R or lulu ult... but as u describ him, i think you would already be dead at when knockedup). When he's on you its to late.

no. Actualy his lv6 is weak af. But when you make post like this you should say what's you play. i assume you play a mage or anything mid if you think Wukong 6 is strong. So :

  • don't get caught by his transition lv6 (mainly when you're lv5)
  • abuse of your range
  • focus on your positionning. If you play a bruiser or any skirmishers, Wukong lv6 isn't scary.

???? Wukong isn't tanky

many ??, only E. his W only last 1,5 sec, you won't go so far with it.

They're no assassins with less mobility than Wukong. If you are in theses situations its due to your positionning & selfawarness.

The best way to learn how to play against Wukong is to play him, go make one or two normal game with him.

When you have no CC, it's kinda hard to CC him. I was playing Kat, and yeah Wukong isn't tanky(unless he builds like he was intended to, but who does that when they can build duskblade and one shot people), but when he has a tanky assistant it's kinda impossible to survive a tower dive even at full HP. And yeah, I had no way to get away from a Wukong ultimate EVER, even being extremely far away from him. With nothing to jump to except him your conditional mobility is useless, and again, he has more movement speed as well as gapclosers. Not getting caught by it seems pretty impossible when I can get under tower and still die to it. He just chased me down every single time. Unless I had a minion wave coming I wasn't getting away, and he can also E to minions, so that doesn't help unless I stand still long enough to W to get a reset on Shunpo in which case I'm dead anyways.

[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xod9JlY7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-08T10:11:34.213+0000)

Well, first off, the damage to the ult is not at all impressive. He deals more damage with an e-auto-q-auto combo than he does with the full duration of his ultimate. It's used for its knock up and the movement speed buff. Against single targets, a good Wu would ult just long enough for the knock up and then end the ult for a series of autos and another combo.

As for "counterplay", you want CC (as with most things). Snare or root or stun and he's stuck in place spinning around. Slow him enough and he won't be able to get at all or most your team in a team fight.

Also, don't cluster for team fights. It's like fighting Amumu. You want to be together for a team fight, but not so close to one another that an AoE ability spells doom for all of you.

Also, armor. Wukong is all about AD scaling. Without AD, he basically hits you with all the deadliness of a blanket. Build some armor and it will allow you time enough to survive him to either counterattack or make an escape.

And wards. Wu often engages using his decoy for the briefest moment of invisibility. But its duration is so short that he has to engage from a nearby brush to optimize its effectiveness. SO WARD!

So Randuins first item on Kat, got it.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

hum... Kat... i honestly don't know the matchup, think you should ask on Katarinamains discord/reddit.

So Randuins first item on Kat, got it.

no sure... but i advice this item 3145 > item 1031 But, i think its more about micro the issue.

MalrothDragonia1 votes

so in the kat match up you really need to be aware of when your shunpo is on cd. A good wukong will wait for you to use it before engaging on you. If you have shunpo up, that plus flash should get you away. A jungler should also be helping you abuse him early in mid, and if you're playing kat top, I'd say don't. You may even want to consider a doran shield start just so you can survive to 6, once you hit 6, you want to bait out his ult, shunpo/flash away, then immediately re-engage with your ult, since you should outdamage him. You have a poke tool as well, so for levels 1-5 you should be prioritizing your q to chipping him down, and abusing him for getting near your daggers.

Also, and I'm sure you know this, kat is a high skill-cap champion, so proper execution of her abilities for max effect is quite difficult, so there is a possibility that some of it is reaction time/cd management related.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

so in the kat match up you really need to be aware of when your shunpo is on cd. A good wukong will wait for you to use it before engaging on you. If you have shunpo up, that plus flash should get you away. A jungler should also be helping you abuse him early in mid, and if you're playing kat top, I'd say don't. You may even want to consider a doran shield start just so you can survive to 6, once you hit 6, you want to bait out his ult, shunpo/flash away, then immediately re-engage with your ult, since you should outdamage him. You have a poke tool as well, so for levels 1-5 you should be prioritizing your q to chipping him down, and abusing him for getting near your daggers.

Also, and I'm sure you know this, kat is a high skill-cap champion, so proper execution of her abilities for max effect is quite difficult, so there is a possibility that some of it is reaction time/cd management related.

My shunpo is always ready to get out of sticky situations, the problem is, it's not enough distance to get away from a Wukong who wants to ult you. I've shunpo'd away several times and usually if he hasn't already used his E(He usually hasn't because Wukongs are that special kind of evil where they specifically save it to no counterplay ult you), that closes enough distance for him, and if not, he flashes, if flash doesn't work, he has 100 extra movement speed from that stupid friggin rune they built specifically for Wukong because it's not like he couldn't cover enough distance on his own. Also yes, I have also shunpo'd and flashed. I don't think there's ever been a time where I've gotten away from a Wukong ultimate when a Wukong was chasing me. I was playing her top, and I know it's not ideal(although I was facing an Urgot who I could pretty much beat the hell out of as much as I wanted at the time, outside of when Wukong came for me of course), the Wukong was jungle. Although I've experienced the pain in the mid lane from Wukong junglers and top laners just as much. There seems to never be a way to actually get away from his ultimate whenever he specifically wants to use it on you. It's almost like a Vi ult, except hers has slightly more counterplay in that you can't do anything about it, but Wukong's is basically a pseudo Vi ultimate in the same sense, as I don't think I've EVER gotten away from it unless the Wukong was trying to use it into the team and not me specifically. I've never liked Wukong, he's never been amazing but he does just enough damage to one shot squishies and has a team disrupting ultimate. It's enough to be a special kind of anti-fun to play against. Yeah, my jungler just kind of decided to ignore any cries for help for more farm, despite me pinging minutes beforehand to signal I was about to be ganked and/or towerdove after seeing the Wukong come to my lane, but I really hate that whole "have your jungler help you" mentality about counterplay, because counterplay to one champion shouldn't be two champions(I mean the Urgot was there occasionally, but Wukong could and had killed me himself most of the time). I pretty much only play Kat(unless I just feel the urge to play another champion), and Vi and Wukong are the only two champions I've ever felt like I just can't do anything against(With Vi it's obvious why, since you can't outplay her ultimate, and Wukong's is almost the same way, except it's only deceptively undodgeable if you're the target instead of outright undodgeable). So yeah, I'm tempted to next time basically just start rushing randuins or some tank item first item because by the time I get my first item(actually sooner) he's bashing my face in. I already have my bruiser Kat build with Dark Harvest when I feel like I'll need some extra beefiness, I suppose I can just run that any time a Wukong is in the game and rush armor earlier on, or maybe I'll just buy stopwatch really early or something(Although that comes with it's own extra set of problems such as enemy champions having the perfect time to hit you with CC or some other BS).

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xod9JlY7,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-08T19:06:45.737+0000)

hum... Kat... i honestly don't know the matchup, think you should ask on Katarinamains discord/reddit.

no sure... but i advice this item 3145 > item 1031 But, i think its more about micro the issue.

Not sure I'll have enough gold to actually get both of those items before a Wukong comes into my lane at 6.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

CC is a major factor in dealing with his Ult and can ruin him, but honestly not every champ is going to have a solid counter for it. Wukong himself isn't really able to counter a number of champs in lane and will be demolished in a head to head fight with them. It's the same concept for his Ult. Some champs just don't have a way to escape it aside from maybe using summoner 4 over a wall. Some champs are Poppy, and can W him when he tries to dash in to Ult, E him to keep him away from champs that he could actually hurt with his Ult and just plain Ult him away when he Ults. Like a lot of other champs in the game, you need the right champs on your team keeping him in check. I will also say that at lvl 1, his Ult isn't that strong at all. The base damage is only 20 and his AD isn't that high at lvl 6. The real danger is when his Ult is lvl 2 and 3, where it jumps to 110 and 200 base damage respectively, and he's had a chance to build some good Damage items by then.

But the main reason its so universally strong is because of its power budget. It takes up a lot of power in his kit to the point the rest of his abilities are pretty boring and have limited use compared to other similar abilities in the game. In a similar case, look at Amumu. He has an AOE toggle, a gap closer and a sort of... spin kick. those abilities are not very strong and I believe you need item 3116 just to be able to use his W without the enemy just walking right out of it. But he's had a very high win rate for years because of how much power his Ult brings to the table. a large scale AOE stun that deals damage can turn the tides of a fight and almost any team comp can work with it.

I'd assume when Riot goes to update Wukong, they would likely look at his Ult and look into the possibility of taking power from his Ult to spread it more evenly throughout his kit, but there has to be a team that is willing to pick him up between larger projects from what Meddler said.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xod9JlY7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-06-09T04:49:25.754+0000)

CC is a major factor in dealing with his Ult and can ruin him, but honestly not every champ is going to have a solid counter for it. Wukong himself isn't really able to counter a number of champs in lane and will be demolished in a head to head fight with them. It's the same concept for his Ult. Some champs just don't have a way to escape it aside from maybe using summoner 4 over a wall. Some champs are Poppy, and can W him when he tries to dash in to Ult, E him to keep him away from champs that he could actually hurt with his Ult and just plain Ult him away when he Ults. Like a lot of other champs in the game, you need the right champs on your team keeping him in check. I will also say that at lvl 1, his Ult isn't that strong at all. The base damage is only 20 and his AD isn't that high at lvl 6. The real danger is when his Ult is lvl 2 and 3, where it jumps to 110 and 200 base damage respectively, and he's had a chance to build some good Damage items by then.

But the main reason its so universally strong is because of its power budget. It takes up a lot of power in his kit to the point the rest of his abilities are pretty boring and have limited use compared to other similar abilities in the game. In a similar case, look at Amumu. He has an AOE toggle, a gap closer and a sort of... spin kick. those abilities are not very strong and I believe you need item 3116 just to be able to use his W without the enemy just walking right out of it. But he's had a very high win rate for years because of how much power his Ult brings to the table. a large scale AOE stun that deals damage can turn the tides of a fight and almost any team comp can work with it.

I'd assume when Riot goes to update Wukong, they would likely look at his Ult and look into the possibility of taking power from his Ult to spread it more evenly throughout his kit, but there has to be a team that is willing to pick him up between larger projects from what Meddler said.

It's strong enough rank 1 to one shot someone with electrocute(mainly it's his Q damage but his ult just makes it so you can't escape the rest of his damage to finish you off), and I've never really agreed with counterplay being "play a specific champion". It's just wrong, but I understand he's too old to have the type of counterplay Riot has started adding over the years. Really hoping his ult changes when he's reworked.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

It's a sad truth of the game that there are just some champs that don't have counter play against others. From what I've seen, Riot has been working hard to change this so that even bad match ups have some amount of counter play, but they have a LOT of work to do before that becomes a reality considering "play a specific champion" was their idea of counter play to them for a long time. Wukong pretty much one shots squishes due to Assassin builds, but at the same time other Divers who have durability and sustain ruin him because he can't burst them down without them punishing him for trying. I myself had to learn at least 2 champs for each role to deal with whatever champs my first pick can't handle.

If picking another champ is not in anyway an option, then the only other thing I could say is try to make a build specific to dealing with that champ. the Runes were updated partly in an attempt to tone back hard counters and while you might not find a build that will fully counter him (he does still need to be updated to current standards after all), you may be able to work out something that can at least make him less of a problem for you.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xod9JlY7,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-06-09T05:45:08.918+0000)

It's a sad truth of the game that there are just some champs that don't have counter play against others. From what I've seen, Riot has been working hard to change this so that even bad match ups have some amount of counter play, but they have a LOT of work to do before that becomes a reality considering "play a specific champion" was their idea of counter play to them for a long time. Wukong pretty much one shots squishes due to Assassin builds, but at the same time other Divers who have durability and sustain ruin him because he can't burst them down without them punishing him for trying. I myself had to learn at least 2 champs for each role to deal with whatever champs my first pick can't handle.

If picking another champ is not in anyway an option, then the only other thing I could say is try to make a build specific to dealing with that champ. the Runes were updated partly in an attempt to tone back hard counters and while you might not find a build that will fully counter him (he does still need to be updated to current standards after all), you may be able to work out something that can at least make him less of a problem for you.

Luckily I have a bruiser Kat build though generally I build MR and HP(spirit visage/sterak's, although sterak's will likely be removed from my build options cuz of the synergy with lich bane being removed. The build only came to my mind because of how OP Sterak's and Trinity Force combined are, so don't know how well the build will work when that's changed, but hoping it's still pretty decent). Perhaps I could work around building armor early with it and still doing okay as long as I can survive laning to get enough Dark Harvest stacks.

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