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@Riot - A certain magical floating mute musician wants some attention

RedCyclone··17 votes·1,866 views

We have been here before, Sona is really lackluster as a support, her playrate is lackluster now and her winrate slowly tanking and with good reason, many supports just do her job much better then she does, pro players deem her as a "bad Nami", solo players whine when you pick her and none of this helps when Riot seems to aimlessly nerf her.

Lets go into what makes Sona...so...nah https://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-8d7ba0451973a34abff182291859a957.jpg

#1. She relies too much on AP stacking With word that different Sightstones are coming that is great, but It's not going to stop Sona from needing 300+AP to get around the same utility she had before her rework, With all these new utility support playthings introduced this season she can't really utilize them well A Sona with hardly any AP is a R pressing 1 trick pony, her skills have crazy low base values so she effectively does nothing lategame.

#2. Her counters are too binary Ever played Sona against a good Blitz/Leona/Thresh/Braum? because I have and it's literally impossible to do anything versus any of these supports in capable hands, they will stick to you at any given moment and make your life miserable to the point where you just want to AFK because you made the mistake of picking Sona, no matter how good you are, you cannot prevent a low level all in that depletes your entire HP bar and stay relevant in the game.

#3. Her base stats are unforgivably low It made sense for pre-rework Sona to be crazy squishy, she gave out a bundle of stats with her auras, but now she hasnt got them anymore yet she still is part of the "glass bones" crew, a very common and obvious trait to these characters is their safety Sona is NOT a safe champion at all, there is no reason for her to be in the slowest movement bracket in the game...she floats dammit, sure she can heal harass (costing 1/4th her mana bar for a tiny bit of HP) but she has the lowest bracket of movement speed, low health and armor, she has all this risk yet she periodically has to get into 550 range of enemies to harass and do well with absolutely zero hard pre 6 CC...For a champion who is deemed one of the easiest in the game, that's actually quite difficult to do without getting slapped for it.

#4. Diminuendo and her Q allied proc effect NEVER get any use out of team mates Even if I am in botlane with a friend, I have never seen anyone capitalize on me casting my W powerchord on them, the effect goes missing right away and no one knows what it does, the same for her Q aura effect but you use that so much that it accidentally gets used If Diminuendo got the shrink effect you had planned for it in PBE I assume that this skill will not be wasted anywhere near as much as it does now, when a enemy looks physically weaker (Teemo sized Jinx :D ) your allies are going to jump on it right away, much like they do when Lulu uses polymorph on them. Trundle's ult makes champions smaller, why can't anything else? These effects are currently unsatisfying to use and it is pretty much always an accident that they ever get attention from your team

So with that, I hope Riot can understand our frustration this year with Sona and do something to make her a better support champion, I would LOVE if they gave her another shot at a rework, the last one looked so promising but missed everything everyone wanted, then we got the gutpunch unneeded nerf soon after, I hope our voices can be heard (lol) and I hope that once again she becomes a good champion again (not overbearing).

#Return the happy bosoms! #:D

44 Comments

BeMyFriendPlease10 votes

Good lord her tits in that picture are ....impressive. How they expand is mesmerizing.

Excellent choice of image for the topic.

Lugg6 votes

She has a 52% win rate in High ELO. Sounds like she's in a good spot to me.

RedCyclone5 votes

(**Can I just say, that under the first paragraph there is a ton of text with genuine concerns about one of my fave champions in the game, she could have a 75% winrate and I would not care, the simple fact is that she is unsatisfying to play in her primary role and feels a step below other supports **)

*51% Also SAMPLE SIZE Incredibly low

I'm getting really irritated by having to explain to people why she has a slightly above average winrate

Let me reiterate, at the start of the year she had a 54% winrate, it has only declined because supports got better around her Periodically ANY nerfs she received never even shifted her winrate, I can see it doing the exact same with buffs (but we don't know that because...Sona getting buffs...) Sona is a champion with an incredibly dedicated playerbase, no one in higher elo is going to spam pick Sona as a "support to use when they don't want to support" unlike a certain someone

Also mentioning that I would prefer another rework over just buffs, she needs that much more Rework could entail anything, but just make her feel better

SaltyKracka3 votes

9000 games played is not low.

Face it, she's not weak.

RedCyclone4 votes

Face it, she feels like shit to play as a support

AGAIN, fucking winrate never changed when she was nerfed

Seriously shut it with the winrate bullshit, by that logic we need to buff Yasuo, Thresh, Zed and Lee

Azeria20112 votes

{quoted}

Face it, she feels like shit to play as a support

AGAIN, fucking winrate never changed when she was nerfed

Seriously shut it with the winrate bullshit, by that logic we need to buff Yasuo, Thresh, Zed and Lee

Actually no she doesn't. I absolutely love playing her as support (or anything else really). Picking up aura items (aegis + froheart) enhances her abilities while also giving her the survivability to survive. Heck other than a morellonomicon (if they have a heavy heal-oriented team) and spellthief I don't get any other AP items. If the game lasts long enough I'll grab rylai's and whatever boots are needed (mobi's/merc's). After that it's really up to the player's runes/masteries and skill (dodging skillshots). She does well against tank supports (Leo, Thresh, Braum, Taric, Tahm, Ali) and can do well against sustain/poke lanes if you build well.

I have survived a lot of all-in's as Sona before thanks to W's shield and damage reduction. I actually have the most trouble not KSing as Sona than I do as any other support thanks to her Q Power Chord. Not to mention in various modes she can be extremely oppressive (One4All/ARAM). IMO she's in a good spot and the only thing I would want is making Q a skill shot (mostly cuz I hate that grey area for minion range and champion range).

Lugg4 votes

A sample size of 9k isn't low at all. Sona is strong against most supports and is only countered by 3-4.

RedCyclone4 votes

She wins 4590 games and loses 4410 games every 9k games Not really that much of a difference, specially when you consider Sona's winrate does not shift with balance changes

Kitten of Evil2 votes

How many of those 9k games do you think a balanced champion should win?

Not really that much of a difference, specially when you consider Sona's winrate does not shift with balance changes

So... what's the issue then?

RedCyclone3 votes

Think about it Nerfs happen, she gets weaker, but she still has the same winrate The feeling isn't very nice, being weaker means being weaker, imagine if your main got hammered by nerfs, only to keep the same winrate and that excuse to be always used against you

And I don't quite think you get the whole point of the thread either, Sona does not necessarily need buffs, she NEEDS changing, it's quite obvious that Riot don't like her being in a good position in botlane and I can understand why

When she is good, she is too safe When she isn't good, she is trash vs competent players

Kitten of Evil2 votes

How do you measure "weakness" then? Winrate is one measure of viability in high-level play, though perhaps not the only one. I understand the issue with it being less satisfying to play her (I stopped playing Brand and Orianna 3 years ago when they nerfed spell ranges because it felt weird).

When she is good, she is too safe When she isn't good, she is trash vs competent players

She does have an extremely un-interactive kit, and that's the problem.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

She has a 52% win rate in High ELO. Sounds like she's in a good spot to me.

I heard WW has (or had) 100% win rate in Plat+ because he only has 2 games played or something along the lines.

Maybe Sona is in the same boat just not as extreme.

Lugg2 votes

Well it said that was from almost 9,000 games analyzed. It had her ranked at the #7 best support right now. She does well against Tahm, Morg, and Thresh but sucks against Blitz, Soraka, and Naut.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Well it said that was from almost 9,000 games analyzed. It had her ranked at the #7 best support right now. She does well against Tahm, Morg, and Thresh but sucks against Blitz, Soraka, and Naut.

That will depend on whether or not 9000 is big enough of a scale when it comes to the total amount of recent games played in LoL.

But I can see where you're coming from.

VDc0zCqe0w3 votes

{quoted}

She has a 52% win rate in High ELO. Sounds like she's in a good spot to me.

GOD STOP with this shit

You go around posting winrates like it's the word of Jesus Johnatan Christ Reborn.

Stop posting in these boards and change every message of yours into a link to champion.gg, it would be the same shit.

You're literally a robot.

Slamurai Jack5 votes

Yeah man, FUCK DATA! FEELINGS are more important. We should balance based on feelings! Nerf Lee Sin, Yasuo, Riven, and Buff Sona and Zyra.

RedCyclone3 votes

Because winrate is the only thing that matters right?

Sona hasn't been picked once for the first time in worlds, pros voice the popular opinion that she is one of the worst supports in the game

But you know, she's a good champion...

Slamurai Jack1 votes

It's not everything, but it's not meaningless either. Sona's been hovering at around 52% the entire season. That kind of consistent data shows that she, at the very worst, is a slightly above average pick in solo Q. Competetive play is another thing entirely and I'd argue that her strengths and weaknesses just aren't relevant at an LCS level. A lane dominant support that scales well isn't going to be nearly as good in competitive where bot lanes routinely swap out of bad matchups and supports are constantly on the roam, putting them massively behind in exp and gold. Im pretty sure Ahri hasn't been used in Worlds and yet I wouldn't argue that she's weak either, and neither would anyone else.

On the other hand, if you're arguing that Sona feels weak or unsatisfying to play, then I'm 100% with you. Often times she does just feel like an Ult bot that doesn't do anything else. She does feel exceedingly vulnerable because of how squishy she is. The power that Sona has will never feel as satisfying as landing an amazing hook on Thresh. And yet, that 52% win rate remains and has for the better part of 10 months now. Regardless of how Sona feels to play, she's on the better half of average from a balance standpoint. Does that mean she should just stay as is? I say no; She can definitely use changes to make her feel impactful and less vulnerable all the time. Just be prepared to give up some of the invisible power she has now if you want those things.

RedCyclone2 votes

I would just really appreciate it if everyone dropped the whole winrate thing and focused more on the problems with her, I made a bunch of discussion inciting stuff below the part where I mentioned the winrate and only one person has commented on it thus far, this thread feels like a failure Stuff like we can agree on, playing Sona full support is less entertaining then watching grass grow, playing her AP however is fun

Honestly I would not care if after a rework she had a 40% winrate, as long as when I am supporting with her, I am more in control of my power, rather then being a glorified spectator

Ravenhale1 votes

{quoted}

I would just really appreciate it if everyone dropped the whole winrate thing and focused more on the problems with her, I made a bunch of discussion incising stuff below the part where I mentioned the winrate and only one person has commented on it thus far, this thread feels like a failure Stuff like we can agree on, playing Sona full support is less entertaining then watching grass grow, playing her AP however is fun

Honestly I would not care if after a rework she had a 40% winrate, as long as when I am supporting with her, I am more in control of my power, rather then being a glorified spectator

Oi...

  1. Is there something wrong with reliance on AP stacking? The way Sona's kit works presently, she is a mid/late game support since her built in utility tends to be worthless before she builds Lich's Bane (or any 80AP item for that matter). She technically doesn't need any of the finished gold generating items, and her kit negates the need for some of the utility items other supports have to buy. I mean think about it. It costs 2200 gold to passively get Talisman (had Ancient Coin for some reason) with an active that isn't available more than once every 40 seconds. It costs 3000 gold to build Lich's Bane (less if you merely want 80AP from Morello or Twin Shadows) to empower an E that can be spammed multiple times in 30 seconds. Which is more valuable? What's more interesting is that same 3000 gold effectively makes her W into a better shield than Locket's active can provide. And this is just one AP item mixed with Spell Thief.

The only reason to complain about AP stacking is a desire to bring more utility early game. This means you would want to buff base values and nerf scaling on her E and W (buffing Q would make things oppressive). Without a need for AP (unless she wants to power up her Ult and Q), Sona would be able to build more defensive and utility items like Mikhael's, Zeke's or Zzrot.

  1. This ties in to her reliance on AP stacking. Without Sheen, Sona can't poke down a tank. It's not even worth trying as most can counter-engage you for more damage than her early Q ranks provide. In my personal experience, Leona tends to be an even trade (both supports die due to Leona's all-in nature), while Braum is not any more a threat than Tahm or Alistair. Thresh can be an issue and Blitz is a farm under tower lane and hope for a mistake. I guess the complaint here is that Sona is worthless when countered because she can't even poke. It happens. So what? Sona will eventually become relevant in the game. It's not like Blitz negates her entire game.

  2. Have you heard of Lux and Zyra? Maybe the three should unite and demand higher Mana/Health/Movespeed. At least put them on par with Annie. Oh wait, she only has 30 more health. Viktor? Oh, he has the same as Annie. Soraka has 50 more health... so maybe that high? I really don't know what you consider "fair" base stats, when it seems a lot of champions start pretty close to each other. I guess Lux and Zyra both have snares (which doesn't stop AA or spells) if you can call that protection.

  3. Sona's bonus auras don't seem to get all that much use. I don't know how this is viewed as an issue. Leona's passive doesn't always get used either.

Edit: Had to correct some of my statements.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xn2cPOcU,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2015-10-21T19:03:10.016+0000)

Yeah man, FUCK DATA! FEELINGS are more important. We should balance based on feelings! Nerf Lee Sin, Yasuo, Riven, and Buff Sona and Zyra.

Thank god riot doesn't listen to shit like this and they are actually gonna buff Sona and nerf Riven

I don't mind Riven at all and i actually find her a healthy and fun and balanced champion but her being nerfed just to see people like you whine pleases me.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Riot eventually caves and caters to the whining of the community no matter what. They even say so in their patch notes from time to time. On multiple occasions last year, Riot said that they thought Yasuo was fine but nerfed him anyway because the community wouldn't shut up about it (or stop banning him). Riot constantly nerfs and buffs already balanced champions based on community perception (Think Lux, Veigar for buffs, Leblanc, Zed for nerfs), knowing they'll have to do follow up work. It's a good way to keep the game fresh and gets the whiners off their backs for a bit.

Lugg3 votes

Low win rates can be deceptive, high win rates are a very good indication that a champion is fine or possibly even OP.

Yeah, Sona has some champs that counter her pretty well, but she counters other champs just as hard. So you pick her into advantageous matchups JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CHAMPION.

After looking at your stats, I think this thread is just you trolling. You have an almost 54% win rate on Sona, so I have no idea why you would be bitching otherwise.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Sona has some champs that counter her pretty well, but she counters other champs just as hard. So you pick her into advantageous matchups JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CHAMPION.

Sona doesn't counter anyone at the moment, i used to hate Sona in S2-S3 because she would roflstomp Janna so hard that you couldn't do anything about that so i couldn't play her that much, but this matchup in S5 is so silly easy it's not even funny, you just get 4 cookies and shield.

Sona doesn't counter even what used to be her easiest matchup and she's countered by many.

{quoted}

After looking at your stats, I think this thread is just you trolling. You have an almost 54% win rate on Sona, so I have no idea why you would be bitching otherwise.

Because people are braindamaged in soloQ (yes, even in fucking dia3-dia2 you find bad players) and you can win with a bad champ if you're skilled enough.

What's this logic btw? I got <50% winrate with Sivir am i whining that Sivir is shit? No because she isn't and i should git gud at her, but Sona is shit.

Lugg3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xn2cPOcU,comment-id=0001000200010000,timestamp=2015-10-21T20:32:28.549+0000)

Sona doesn't counter anyone at the moment,

Let's see her win rate vs other supports: Lulu 59% Tahm 57% Morgana 55% Thresh 55% Bard 54% Nami 53% Braum 51% Janna 51%

Yeah, she totally doesn't counter anyone at all. /s

Sona doesn't counter even what used to be her easiest matchup and she's countered by many.

Countered by many? The only supports that have a winning record against her are Brand (how often do you see that anyway), Naut, Blitz, and Soraka. That's it.

Go sell crazy somewhere else, no one is buying it here.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Unfortunately Riot hates Sona and will never give her anything good

The only "buffs" she gets are shit like passive not being consumed on wards and not having an increasing mana cost on ult AKA glorified QOL fixes.

Then next patch they say they buffed her too much and nerf her base HP again.

Apparently they regret making her

RedCyclone1 votes

Well this is partly the reason why I want her reworked again Riot cannot allow her to be decent with her current kit, they make up silly excuses to keep her under the bar because a lot of her kit is both invisible and easy to use

I'd like them to actually try with her, make her a little harder to play, give her a reason to be played over some other supports who currently are just flat out described as better then her in every way (like Nami)

Marthian1 votes

Unfortunately Riot hates Sona and will never give her anything good.

Yeah they hate her so much they give her several skins, including an awesome ultimate skin, and arcade skin which is very awesome.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

So you can look nice while you suck in game. Fact is that for almost every direct or indirect buff Sona got two compensation nerfs were heading her way. She's not absolutely terrible, but half of her kit feels like complete shit.

Oh look, she got new Q on-hit effect. We should nerf Q basic missiles to compensate - fine, it's better that part of her damage gets shifted to riskier AA's than long-range Q. And then we nerf Powerchord. And then we nerf it again to the point that Sona that does not rush Lichbane becomes absolutely useless.

And my personal favorite which kinda proves they were just looking for excuses to nerf her: Reducing her W base and scaling, but introducing missing %HP scaling. Pretty good change IMO, specifically aimed at preventing Sona from keeping people topped off in lane but keeping her heals effective at low HP allies... and then they cut said HP scaling in half. This results in W feeling extremely underwhelming untill well in mid-game: you can't max it first because you are useless without your Q, so it remains as a horrible mana sink with garbage bases and miserable missing %HP scaling which can save someone in maybe 1/10 cases.

E is the most unrewarding ability in this game to level up. +1% MS per level? Wow. That's, like, 3, maybe even 4 flat MS boost.

And ultimate passive boost is just a joke. +10 damage/shield every 5 levels? They've really compensated her for all those nerfs here. That +10 is going to feel really impactful at level 16. And increased MS boost should just be on her E levelup by default - you know, so it could actually feel impactful to level up?

Marthian1 votes

Welcome to a champion designed around auras.

However, saying they straight up hate Sona is just a blanket statement that isn't remotely true (and they probably will look at her/other caster supports pre-season anyways, so hold your horses.)

NemeBro2 votes

{quoted}

her winrate slowly tanking

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona

Dipped briefly for two patches, and is now back to over 52%.

If you don't want people to bring up win rates in your thread, don't start your thread off by lying about them. =)

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

yet her play rate is only 3.42 lol

SEKAI1 votes

Yeah off-topic but....

So I tried to see the pic in its original size in order to save it by opening it on a new tab and it tells me the domain is "403 forbidden".

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

Oh well the small one would do.

RedCyclone2 votes

:D

Icestar11861 votes

Diminuendo only applies to your autoattacks. Q is the only one that buffs ally attacks, and the power chord effects still only apply to you.

EDIT: Not that Sona doesn't need to be looked at, mind you. I would like to see her, and caster supports in general, more often.

RedCyclone2 votes

I mean casting Diminuendo gets no reaction from my team when I use it on a key enemy (carry, burst mage, sticky tanky dps)

Ravenhale1 votes

Well... according to lolking.net in the past month across all regions Sona had a 1.1% popularity and a 45.6% win rate at Master +

She consistently breaks even at Diamond level so that might be the ceiling on her skill. There's probably dozens of champions that have this issue, so I don't see why this particular champion needs a fix.

RedCyclone2 votes

She still feels like she has too much invisible power and you never really feel like you actually impact the game outside your ult when you are supporting

Erockandroll1 votes

Just a couple critiques. I coarse, sona was the first champion I ever picked up.

  1. While that's some what true, no support should really be reliant on scaling. Considering the role of support doesn't really have a gold source. (basically saying that increase AP ratios probably isn't going to be the answer.)

  2. I could probably handle the latter 2. Blitz and Leona however, have way too much force of presence. The threat of their spells means that just standing their zones sona away. But I feel like the main problem with those two champs is they take almost no damage from poke, and the sustain too much from relic shield. Maybe Support defenses are a bit too much. (either from their kits, or from the defense tree.

  3. The only stat I really had problems with was the MS. Prior to her last nerf to MS, I was always able to bob a weave in and out of fights. But now, I really can't go anywhere. Whether you support Sona as a poke, or as a Aura champion, She needs to remain mobile. And if Riot won't return the MS to her, then they should make her E a little more potent on cast.

  4. I do feel like her power chord procs do go unnoticed. Many times because, the W and E affects have such a short duration. While her Q powerchord is instantaneous. I would feel like her E powerchord should have a more powerful slow. (considering she has no other CC except for her ult.) As for her W, I feel like it should offer something else. It's kinda hard to balance the power/duration of these effects when her spells are on relatively short cooldowns.

I'm not sure, but I don't think Sona is that far off. I would probably look at her counters first. And if that doesn't help, find a way to help her against her counters, that doesn't make her oppressive.

RedCyclone2 votes

Well, just anything to better her feel when she does not have 300+ AP One time I used to build support items on her, now the game demands me I rush a Lichbane

Not only that but support Sona is incredibly boring to play now with her pathetic bases

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Well, just anything to better her feel when she does not have 300+ AP One time I used to build support items on her, now the game demands me I rush a Lichbane

Not only that but support Sona is incredibly boring to play now with her pathetic bases

The problem with Ratios is, if you have them, your better of laning. Now you could argue that Sona's kit is so atrocious in lane that she has to support, regardless of her ratios. But people won't accept having high ratios on a support. Even if you try to justify lack of gold as a balance lever. People still cringe at the possibility of Sona with 500 AP from a Death cap, lichbane and ludens. (however unlikely that is to happen.)

But on the same train of though. Lich bane Probably is one of the reasons why sona gets scuffled into a poke build. Because it gives her ratios that she otherwise wouldn't have. And she wouldn't even be that effective at damage without one.

Captain Aishi1 votes

I want to play sona again, she used to be my favorite support before her rework... I hope they can bring tempo back into playing her but i'm not holding my breath either :(

Ruin Lance1 votes

imo Sona should be reworked instead of just buffed. Her Q, W, and E in particular are totally un-interactive, I guess would be the word for it. Her ult and passive are fine though.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Sona doesn't feel satisfying to play, it's true, but her ultimate is just too strong for the rest of her kit to be any good.

Sona also doesn't function well in a meta where all her hard counters are so prevalent (as they have been for the last 2 years).

Face of the Mountain gives too many raw stats compared to Talisman or Frost Queen's, and in lane it also gives the support a heal for both themself and their carry so they can just shrug off poke.

That's why Sona isn't good. Her kit is pretty well balanced, but support itemization is terribly unbalanced. Tank supports get ridiculous sustain and health from their first item (and don't mind building Ruby Sightstone) while Sona gets almost nothing from Frostfang and only decent stats from Talisman.

The items and the meta are the problem, not the champion. Personally, I really do enjoy playing Tank Sona (her AP build is just too terrible). Sona's kit is about landing a critical AOE stun and completely changing the team fight around her, and playing tank means you can bait like a boss because people expect you to be easy to kill.

Here's my Tank Sona build: Talisman, Ruby Sightstone, Mercurial Treads + Captain, Dead Man's Plate, Warmog's Armor, Banshee Veil. Pick up Elixir of Iron as well for Giant Sona.

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