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Riot, Revert the W change on Evelynn or Fix her Q

mirAcIe··30 votes·2,784 views

This was not a buff. I know it was intended as one, but it was not thought through. Did you forget how terrible you made her Q? It doesn't even hit anymore because you can't keep up with people.

With that change you just took something reliable - the speed buff that a lot of people actually made use of - and replaced it with a possible reward for not killing a target. In the end this was far from a buff, because now Evelynn misses more Q's than usual and she has a lot less tools in combat once she shows herself.

Not only you made her a weaker fighter, but you also made her more binary and plain. Since she has no gapcloser, she had to rely on her dash to go in/break slows/get out and it was a tricky spell to use, but there was also a hidden strength that SEPARATED GOOD EVES FROM THE GREAT which was the passive part. At full stacks you could manoeuvre around people and dodge a lot of damage - which is basically using both your game knowledge AND skill to a great effect.

Why would you remove this mechanic and replace it with a dumb reset, especially when she already had a reset on kill/assist anyway?

EDIT: @Riot @Meddler @Statikk @SorryIfIdidntmentionyou Thank you for looking into this (even if it wasn't because of this particular thread)! Rito delivers!

30 Comments

SiNful Jungler4 votes

I hope thry buff irelia as they did with eve #betterbuffirelia

Rinky Dinky4 votes

Why revert it, when she can have both?

Evelynn Players, get hyped! Riot listened!

rikelol1 votes

BPE reverted back to livre status. Well, they said: "gotta go fast removed". Rioters obviously don't play Eve. They think her kit is all about perma-stealth, but they are wrong, she was so FUN late-game also due to that persistent speed buff. It's absolutely disgusting the way they treat her. I hate myself for being attached to this game because some few champions I still have fun playing. One more reason to leave this stupid game behind and move my life on.

Support Evelynn2 votes

Not to mention it also killed her early game snowballing. That's a lot of MS to lose early, especially in long lanes like top.

ForPortal2 votes

{quoted}

Why would you remove this mechanic and replace it with a dumb reset, especially when she already had a reset on kill/assist anyway?

Yeah, it was a blatantly stupid change. Two nearly identical features that don't stack are not worth as much as two features that do stack.

Widder882 votes

{quoted} With that change you just took something reliable - the speed buff that a lot of people actually made use of - and replaced it with a possible reward for not killing a target. In the end this was far from a buff, because now Evelynn misses more Q's than usual and she has a lot less tools in combat once she shows herself.

Did you test the change? At Lolking it looks like your last Evelynn game was 2 weeks ago. Seriously, it seems like 50% of the people who complain about the change, didn't even test it.

"A lot less tools in combat"? She has no longer a 16 flat ms passive, but an additional 30% ms active. If you get the reset, what is not that difficult, it is a much better tool for chasing and escaping.

I think the CD reduction on spell hit is great. But i don't know why they removed the passive ms. I wanna have both.

mirAcIe2 votes

{quoted}

Did you test the change? At Lolking it looks like your last Evelynn game was 2 weeks ago. Seriously, it seems like 50% of the people who complain about the change, didn't even test it.

I play on a different account. And you were the one to accuse me of making quick assumptions. Besides, I even tested it when it was only on PBE and expressed the same exact opinion back when it wasn't live yet. And it was a big thread as well, started by another Evelynn player and it had a lot of support. Sadly, we couldn't convince Riot. By the way, if you look at Evelynn's plat+ stats on champion.gg this little change only made her winrate go down.

"A lot less tools in combat"? She has no longer a 16 flat ms passive, but an additional 30% ms active. If you get the reset, what is not that difficult, it is a much better tool for chasing and escaping.

Now this is far from true. She doesn't have additional anything, because she lands less skills and if it so happens that she does get a reset before killing someone (alternatively after failing to kill someone and trying to get the hell out) it's still not an even trade compared to what she had before. And if we're talking late game it was 80 bonus MS, not 16.

I think the CD reduction on spell hit is great. But i don't know why they removed the passive ms. I wanna have both.

Glad we agree on something. I just know that they don't want to give her too much. But how about not taking anything away either?

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

I play on a different account. And you were the one to accuse me of making quick assumptions. Besides, I even tested it when it was only on PBE and expressed the same exact opinion back when it wasn't live yet. And it was a big thread as well, started by another Evelynn player and it had a lot of support. Sadly, we couldn't convince Riot.

I think Riot will react in one of the next patches as they said. But i really think that there are existing some prejudices against this change.

By the way, if you look at Evelynn's plat+ stats on champion.gg this little change only made her winrate go down.

There is an even bigger change from patch 5.4 to 5.5. So maybe the tanky meta is a reason for the win rate falling down.

Now this is far from true. She doesn't have additional anything, because she lands less skills and if it so happens that she does get a reset before killing someone

It depends on how much CDR you have. Buy Magus + CDR shoes, get 40% CDR, hit 4 people with R, 2 people with Q, one champion twice with E, and you get an reset within 1! second. Or if you assasinate a single target: Hit R, Q, E, Q, Q and you still get the reset within 3 seconds.

And you do even more damage with CDR shoes than with Sorcerer shoes: CDR shoes increase the Q-DPS by 25% while Sorcerer shoes increase the DPS by just 12% against a target with 42 MR. E does physical damage and R can't kill anything anyway. But you can lower the CD.

Vermonster1 votes

You get the reset anyways if you kill something. Read her abilities more carefully.

That being said, she was already in a shit place before this nerf. How about we focus on the fact that Eve has the worst ult in the game and it cannot kill anything.. Some assassin

Yorukin2 votes

{quoted}

Glad we agree on something. I just know that they don't want to give her too much. But how about not taking anything away either?

Good news, then. The MS buff was returned on the PBE, and the reset is still there.

Aazzlano2 votes

{quoted}

Did you test the change? At Lolking it looks like your last Evelynn game was 2 weeks ago. Seriously, it seems like 50% of the people who complain about the change, didn't even test it.

"A lot less tools in combat"? She has no longer a 16 flat ms passive, but an additional 30% ms active. If you get the reset, what is not that difficult, it is a much better tool for chasing and escaping.

I think the CD reduction on spell hit is great. But i don't know why they removed the passive ms. I wanna have both.

Hi! Diamond eve player, main since season 2, here.

The change is horrible. It is a huge, huge, huge, huge nerf. The champion is pretty much utter trash at this point. It removed the only thing that made her even decent. If they took her stealth from 6 second timer to 12 second timer, that increased up to 12/13/14/15 with ult ranks, but reverted the W change, it would STILL be a huge buff compared to what it is now. You really underestimate how hard the nerf hits her.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

Hi! Diamond eve player, main since season 2, here.

The change is horrible. It is a huge, huge, huge, huge nerf. The champion is pretty much utter trash at this point. It removed the only thing that made her even decent. If they took her stealth from 6 second timer to 12 second timer, that increased up to 12/13/14/15 with ult ranks, but reverted the W change, it would STILL be a huge buff compared to what it is now. You really underestimate how hard the nerf hits her.

Your build is good. AP, 40% CDR. But at which point you feel a huge nerf? When you try to hit AAs or if you try to hit Qs? Before the W active times out? After the W active times out and before you get a reset (should be a short duration with 40% CDR)? After you get a reset for kill/assist?

How can you say, that the W passive is the only thing, that make her decent? With your build it is no big problem to kill squshys out of stealth. That doesn't make her decent?

mirAcIe1 votes

{quoted}

Your build is good. AP, 40% CDR. But at which point you feel a huge nerf? When you try to hit AAs or if you try to hit Qs? Before the W active times out? After the W active times out and before you get a reset (should be a short duration with 40% CDR)? After you get a reset for kill/assist?

How can you say, that the W passive is the only thing, that make her decent? With your build it is no big problem to kill squshys out of stealth. That doesn't make her decent?

I don't know why do you keep ignoring my points and still want answers, I think I made it pretty clear. The trade off that we got with that change is simply not even close. Old W >>>> New W, that's all we're saying. The amount of spells you have to land to get your W to reset in the mid game almost equals the amount you'd normally land to kill someone anyway (and you'd get your reset regardless of the new W mechanic). Capping out at 40% cdr in the midgame is not an optimal build tbh. There are a lot of other concerns and it doesn't change the biggest issue with this change which is:

Now you might get a reset before getting an assist or might not, but you still lose out on all the MS that you could use to potentially outplay your enemies. It's just straight up worse and we simply don't understand how in the world someone decided she deserved a nerf.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why do you keep ignoring my points and still want answers, I think I made it pretty clear. The trade off that we got with that change is simply not even close. Old W >>>> New W, that's all we're saying.

Old W passive gave 16 flat ms during most of the game. As long as your W active is active it is reduced to 11 due to soft caps. When W active timed out, 16 flat ms was nice, but not really strong compared to the active. 30% ms means 95 flat ms. If you get the W reset now for example 4 seconds after your first activation, you have to deal with 16 ms less for 1 second, but have 90 ms more for 3 seconds afterwards.

Timeline (example): 0-3 seconds: 11 ms less 3-4 seconds: 16 ms less 4-7 seconds: 90 ms more, slows removed

The huge, huge, huge nerf is not obvious for my, sry.

The amount of spells you have to land to get your W to reset in the mid game almost equals the amount you'd normally land to kill someone anyway

With 40% CDR you need only 6 spell hits. You need just R, Q, E, Q, Q. Its easy to do within 3 seconds. If your target is already dead after this, you have done your job. When the job is done, it is not that important if you have 11 ms more or less. But if the opponent is still alive, it can be very useful to extend your powerful active W duration to 6 seconds, and remove slows.

mirAcIe1 votes

{quoted}

Old W passive gave 16 flat ms during most of the game. As long as your W active is active it is reduced to 11 due to soft caps. When W active timed out, 16 flat ms was nice, but not really strong compared to the active. 30% ms means 95 flat ms. If you get the W reset now for example 4 seconds after your first activation, you have to deal with 16 ms less for 1 second, but have 90 ms more for 3 seconds afterwards.

Timeline (example): 0-3 seconds: 11 ms less 3-4 seconds: 16 ms less 4-7 seconds: 90 ms more, slows removed

The huge, huge, huge nerf is not obvious for my, sry.

With 40% CDR you need only 6 spell hits. You need just R, Q, E, Q, Q. Its easy to do within 3 seconds. If your target is already dead after this, you have done your job. When the job is done, it is not that important if you have 11 ms more or less. But if the opponent is still alive, it can be very useful to extend your powerful active W duration to 6 seconds, and remove slows.

The problem is if you land 6 spells - it's sort of good, but if not - it's HELLA bad and you most certainly not BECAUSE you don't have that extra ms that allows your Qs to hit and not just go off and then miss.

The amount of time required to land 6 spells is not 3 seconds, while you had passive stacks the entire time you keep using your abilities. I don't know about you, but a lot of people used that to their advantage when positioning yourself in combat to dodge stuff etc etc. It was your field to play with, now it's gone. You have another field to play with (trying to get a faster reset on your W), but you can do it by killing people as well. You play a champion that literally runs up into people's faces and it's very important to bait out and dodge crucial abilities coming your way.

Besides, not it's not like you go all in with your ult all the time, you had a lot of ways to mess around with your enemies by using your W passive.

Also "this is not a nerf because you're forced to 1 buildpath into make up for the lost stats" is not really a valid argument either.

BTW, it's on PBE, they are bringing it back!

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/03/330-pbe-update.html

Aazzlano1 votes

{quoted}

Your build is good. AP, 40% CDR. But at which point you feel a huge nerf? When you try to hit AAs or if you try to hit Qs? Before the W active times out? After the W active times out and before you get a reset (should be a short duration with 40% CDR)? After you get a reset for kill/assist?

How can you say, that the W passive is the only thing, that make her decent? With your build it is no big problem to kill squshys out of stealth. That doesn't make her decent?

you lose a lot of damage from both AA and Qs, also you will be unable to get in range for a second E if they are running away now. i used to be able to chase them down and space myself as i want to, but now i have to run straight at them or they will just blatantly be out of range (and usually do anyway)

i pick eve because she moves how i want her to move, if i want to kite i can kite, if i want to chase i can chase, if i want to juke, weave around, go in and out in fights, whatever i want, i can do that because of that bonus MS. without it, she is extremely immobile. I mean if you think about it, 30% movement speed for 3 seconds is like moving 90% of the distance you move in 1 second, so with boots and rank 1 W you just move 328 units more than you would have. For a comparison, Graves/Lucian dash are 425 units (and near instant) and Ezreal is 475. Rivens is 325, and is also pretty instant. Obviously her W gets much better the later the game goes, but it is really really horrible early on, mostly useful for the slow removal. With the passive movement speed on it, it was a much more relevant skill for the entirety of the game instead of just post level 13 when the skill would actually get more than a single point in it.

Even with 40% cdr the skill is like impossible to reset, either you or the enemy are already dead by that point, and after the 3 seconds when your W wears off, you are pretty immobile until it comes back. Especially since you usually have to use it to even get in range since you don't get the passive movement speed to begin with, meaning you can't even cleanse slows with it... it's just overall extremely hindering of her to not have the passive movement speed stack. It's unbearable

Kingsgrave2 votes

At least make her Q instant instead of having a travel time

junglerboy162 votes

Hey guys, check the PBE, they added the old W passive back on as a passive for her E. CRISIS AVERTED!

Vermonster2 votes

So they put her back to being one of the worst characters in the game, as opposed to THE worst character in the game. #Riot

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

Lmao knew that all the eve players would realize this too late.

Edit - I know, I was one of the ones who made a big post about these changes being bad but all the eve mains(sarcasm here) said I was completely wrong.

mirAcIe6 votes

[{quoted}](name=POPTART DELIVERY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xjzEYUKi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-30T09:10:51.657+0000)

Lmao knew that all the eve players would realize this too late.

There was a thread about this before the changes went through. We all knew what this was, nobody just listened to us.

Support Evelynn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=POPTART DELIVERY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xjzEYUKi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-30T09:10:51.657+0000)

Lmao knew that all the eve players would realize this too late.

It was really difficult to test on the PBE since everyone on the PBE is utter trash.

TenSlashTen1 votes

i remember in season3 I had a pbe account got to challenger in 3 days lmfao.

Unedible1 votes

Maybe if auto-attacks on champions would interact with her W...

rikelol1 votes

Man, this is the most reasonable Eve's analysys I've read for a while about the changes to her W

Current on PBE they added back her passive moviment speed. Since Riot can't just buff Eve's damage, cause she has such a strong passive, improving her utilitty is the better way to go, as also keeping her identity as a furious rapid sneaky men's predator. At least they are listening to comunity (:

Yuki Akuma1 votes

It's reverted on the PBE

Vermonster1 votes

Lets talk about the fact that Eve's nerf (prior to this "buff" that nerfed her) was due almost completely to her ability to use DFG to burst.... Where is her buff to compensate for losing DFG?

And Riot when I say "BUFF" I don't mean nerf her ult (Veigar Leblanc ) or completely ruin her and make her nearly unplayable (Veigar ) I mean actually give her a buff so picking eve doesnt mean being reported by your team and losing. I mean buff her like the only champion who received that "compensation" you promised for DFG removal (Ahri ). Tired of Riots shitty balance team picking constant favorites to buff or not nerf (Cassiopeia Zed Kalista Nidalee ) and ruining other champions who aren't even broken

Axrios1 votes

meybe just buff her q base dmg like it was in s4? idk

mirAcIe1 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/03/331-pbe-update.html RIP

lolipopevelynn1 votes

i dont understand what PBE is even for if riot doesnt fucking listen. these changes should not have went through in the first place.

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