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PSA: Infernal Drake isn't nearly as good as you probably think it is

TotalJerk··9 votes·8,375 views

I keep hearing people say that it gives 8% more damage against champions. It actually increases your AD and AP ratios by 8% when calculating damage against champions. This means it does nothing for your clearing or objective taking, and that champions with lower ratios and core items with less raw AP/AD receive less benefit from it. Supports and full tanks in particular gain almost nothing from Infernal Drake. It's even worse when you're dealing with a spell that uses bonus AD scaling instead of total AD. Here's a little something I just posted on Reddit:

A Zed with Ghostblade and Cleaver deals 309 damage with Q at max rank. Infernal drake bumps that up to 316.92. This means Infernal Drake effectively added 7.92 damage to Zed's Q. If it did a flat 8% more damage, he would've gained 24.72 damage, well over triple that.

I'm definitely not saying that Infernal drake is bad, more damage can always be appreciated, and the global exp is nothing to scoff at. I just wanted to let people know this.

35 Comments

LankPants6 votes

I keep hearing people say that it gives 8% more damage against champions. It actually increases your AD and AP ratios by 8% when calculating damage against champions.

It does neither, it gives you 8% more AD and AP. This can be more than 8% damage, if you're an AA heavy champ who buys a lot of crit your damage will increase by more than 8%, if you're a mage who uses entirely spells it will be far less than 8% because you rely on bases as much as ratios.

I soloed an Infernal as Xin then went back and bought an Amp tome, gaining 22 AP rather than 20 because of the 8% bonus AP, I also have 5 extra AD from the Infernal.

http://i.imgur.com/yhA4VVG.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wVX2hnI.jpg

What this means is that Infernal Drake makes you stronger VS Baron, Dragon, Minions, Champions and Towers. You're underestimating the buff heavily based off of misinformation.

Sightless661 votes

This can be more than 8% damage, if you're an AA heavy champ who buys a lot of crit your damage will increase by more than 8%,

Actually, that is a bit inaccurate. You can never get above an 8% damage boost from the dragon by being an autoattacker, because no matter how much crit and attack speed you have, your autoattack damage will always increase by exactly 8% with each dragon buff (unless you have some form of ability damage on your autos like Vayne). I can prove this with an example.

Say we have 100 AD, 1 attack per second and 50% crit chance (this numbers are obviously fake, but they're just for simplicity's sake). Over 4 attacks, you would expect to do 600 damage (2 hits for 100, 2 crits for 200). 8% of 600 is 48. If you had 8 bonus AD from the dragon, you would expect to do 648 damage (2 hits for 108, 2 crits for 216). So, you have an increase in autoattack damage of exactly 8%. You can do this with any values for AD, crit and attack speed, and I promise you that the increase to autoattack dps from a dragon will always equal 8%, unless you have an on-hit effect like Varus W (the dragon will not increase the base damage of the on-hit, so Varus will get less than an 8% increase).

So, basically, the more damage you get from autoattacks and from bonus AD/AP scaling, and the less you get from ability base damage, the closer to an 8% damage boost you will get from a dragon. That's actually a good way to determine exactly how ham you should go for the infernal drake, and exactly how many of your team it is worth abandoning to guarantee that nice juicy fire dragon damage.

CeexSett1 votes

Well, Varus's W scales with AP, so if you had some AP before, you will get a bit more AP, technically increasing the damage by 8%.

Still agree with everything else.

Sightless661 votes

technically increasing the damage by 8%.

It won't be an increase of 8% to his autoattack damage, because it won't boost the base damage of the W. The W's AP ratio damage will be boosted by 8%, but the base will be unaltered. This guarantees that the skill's damage will be increased by some value that will always be less than 8%. I can work out an equation to prove this if you like.

No ability that has a base damage will have its damage increased by 8%. The only reason autoattacks get an 8% increase is because there technically is no base damage. All of the AD used for autoattacks gets increased, while for skills, the base damage is unaltered but the ratio damage is increased by 8%.

CeexSett1 votes

Yup, you're right, misunderstanding by my side. The Ratio part will increase by 8%, but the base will stay the same.

The Deckowner3 votes

The drake is most beneficial for mages/adc because they usually stack a large amount of AP/AD, and champions like veigar can make the most value out of the infernal drake.

but the drake is pretty much useless early game, ocean drake is much better as early game is concerned.

Brimaz The King2 votes

To tell you the truth I LOVE the cloud dragon most then the ocean.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

the best one is still the ocean drake.

Master Yiseeks1 votes

On a side note I think ocean drake should also replenish energy (at a very slow rate, but still have an effect). Doesn't really make sense that a lot of champs just totally miss out on its benefits. My personal two cents.

TotalJerk10 votes

The entire purpose of Ocean Drake is sustain, this is something energy users definitely do not need more of, they can siege forever as long as they have the health.

Captain Aishi1 votes

or they could also make it regenerate fury slowly over time... never decaying renekton fury because of ocean drake... mwahahaha!

aaronautumn1 votes

every little bit helps

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

every little bit helps

Yeah, but Infernal adds like 4-6% damage in fights only to your carries and not your front line or supports while mountain adds 14-17% damage to EVERYONE when attacking turrets.

Yes, damage in a fight is more important than damage to objectives, but Infernal doesn't add an insurmountable amount of damage that you should risk everything to secure it.

Votable Jester1 votes

Well if it was an "insurmountable amount of damage," games would be decided from that alone, and that would be boring.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhAA7rOJ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T06:05:04.938+0000)

Well if it was an "insurmountable amount of damage," games would be decided from that alone, and that would be boring.

Week 1 NA LCS, teams with an Inferno drake actually lost more often than they won.

Infernal did a lot better week 2 though.

Votable Jester1 votes

Well, teams often traded drake for the rift herald at the start. The herald gives a much better buff for the early and mid game, so that makes sense. That does not necessarily reflect on the dragon being bad.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhAA7rOJ,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T06:11:24.389+0000)

Well, teams often traded drake for the rift herald at the start. The herald gives a much better buff for the early and mid game, so that makes sense. That does not necessarily reflect on the dragon being bad.

The most contested dragon being relegated to a bad booby prize? That sounds kinda bad to me, especially when every other dragon type performed better than Infernal, even Cloud managed to go even. Mountain was the standout winner with a 76% winrate.

Votable Jester1 votes

I'm saying that the Infernal Drake isn't so strong as an early game buff, but as the game goes on, it becomes more valuable. It's the same reason mages don't build a Rabadon's as their first item, % increases aren't that great early on. It's only once you have a few items that it becomes strong.

Mountain is great in pro games as they generally focus on non-player objectives. The addition to early tower pushing as well as bonus damage to future dragons is incredibly valuable. Really, Mountain Drake is great in general. It makes it easy to build a non-champion based lead, which is most of what is done in pro games.

Darth Sidiouss1 votes

Interestingly enough i am willing to bet a lot that the psychological tilt factor is very high with the fire drake and i even put it above getting a baron. Even though the buff isnt so great the thought of the enemy team having it is soo tilting. So it gives a psychological disadvantage to the enemy team and moral boost for your team which is GOOD.

67chrome1 votes

and that champions with lower ratios and core items with less raw AP/AD receive less benefit from it.

Ratios are usually pretty proportional to base damage.

With 8% more AP/AD though: the base QWER of most champions reaches ~1000 when they reach level 18, with a 220% AP ratio (or requiring 450 AP) to deal 2000 damage.

As such: champions with 450 AP would only receive 4% more damage from 8% more AP. Or if you figure 150/300/450 damage at rank 1,2,and 3 R over the course of a game: with 150 AP @6, 300 @11, and 450 @16 you'd only do 4% more damage. And to get that level of AP at those points in the game you have to go glass-cannon AP, often sacrificing mana and mana regeneration to get there. Same general thing applies on the AD side.

So yeah: what looks like 8% is 4% best-case scenario in most cases, more realistically less. And less then 1% for most supports, tanks, and juggernauts.

Darth Sidiouss1 votes

Its not one fire drake. The goal everyone has is the 3rd consecutive fire buff for the 24% which is ALOT.

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yeezy Taught you,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhAA7rOJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-20T05:50:22.794+0000)

Its not one fire drake. The goal everyone has is the 3rd consecutive fire buff for the 24% which is ALOT.

That's only triple the effect for triple the effort and a ton of luck. For you to even secure three of the most contested dragons, you're probably pretty far ahead regardless.

Eevee In A Jar1 votes

It is more fair to say different drakes focus on different things. It really is like saying cloud drake is useless when you got champs that already gave nightmares split pushing.

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

If 25 damage didnt matter so much, we wouldnt have all these memes about 5+ ad

Only Play Darius1 votes

They should revert these stupid RNG dragons and bring back Season 5 Drake

LOLsmileyfaces1 votes

............................................................................................

Okay, let's do some math OP.

5 champions auto attack 1 enemy with one infernal drake. 8%x5= 40% increased damage. Let's say the enemy team got two infernal drakes. 80% increased damage..... now add an elder dragon after the two infernals. elder dragon = 50% increase to current dragon effects. 24%x5= 120%..... congratulations, you just added another champion to the enemy team with two infernal drakes.

BloodyTompon1 votes

Sorry, this is wrong. 5 aa on 1 enemy still only gives 8% increase in damage.

Shamelessly copying and pasting from another post. As you will be able to see from below, the number of aa's doesn't influence the overall increase.

{quoted}

Actually, that is a bit inaccurate. You can never get above an 8% damage boost from the dragon by being an autoattacker, because no matter how much crit and attack speed you have, your autoattack damage will always increase by exactly 8% with each dragon buff (unless you have some form of ability damage on your autos like Vayne). I can prove this with an example.

Say we have 100 AD, 1 attack per second and 50% crit chance (this numbers are obviously fake, but they're just for simplicity's sake). Over 4 attacks, you would expect to do 600 damage (2 hits for 100, 2 crits for 200). 8% of 600 is 48. If you had 8 bonus AD from the dragon, you would expect to do 648 damage (2 hits for 108, 2 crits for 216). So, you have an increase in autoattack damage of exactly 8%. You can do this with any values for AD, crit and attack speed, and I promise you that the increase to autoattack dps from a dragon will always equal 8%, unless you have an on-hit effect like Varus W (the dragon will not increase the base damage of the on-hit, so Varus will get less than an 8% increase).

LOLsmileyfaces1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, this is wrong. 5 aa on 1 enemy still only gives 8% increase in damage.

Shamelessly copying and pasting from another post. As you will be able to see from below, the number of aa's doesn't influence the overall increase.

no.... If you're lucian and you're taking 8% increased damage from an auto, that' 8% increased damage onto you. Now if you add 4 more people, you have taken a total of 40% increased damage. From 5 auto attacks, you have taken 40% more damage than what you normally would have. Not 8%. So it does influence the overall increase. If you don't understand that, then you're a lost cause.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

no.... If you're lucian and you're taking 8% increased damage from an auto, that' 8% increased damage onto you. Now if you ad 4 more people, you have taken a total of 40% increased damage. From 5 auto attacks, you have taken 40% more damage than what you normally would have. Not 8%. So it does influence the overall increase. If you don't understand that, then you're a lost cause.

In that case you take 8% damage more than you would have without the infernal dragons No dragons: 5 champions x 100% damage per champion = 500% damage. 1 dragon: 5 champions x (100% damage per champion x 1.08 bonus from infernal drake) = 540% damage

540% / 500% = 108% damage.

And that's while accepting the ridiculous assumption that 8% AD/AP is equivalent to an 8% increase in damage, which is not true for any champion in the game and a proper team composition will certainly have at least 1 champion that gains almost nothing at all from an infernal drake.

LOLsmileyfaces1 votes

{quoted}

In that case you take 8% damage more than you would have without the infernal dragons No dragons: 5 champions x 100% damage per champion = 500% damage. 1 dragon: 5 champions x (100% damage per champion x 1.08 bonus from infernal drake) = 540% damage

540% / 500% = 108% damage.

And that's while accepting the ridiculous assumption that 8% AD/AP is equivalent to an 8% increase in damage, which is not true for any champion in the game and a proper team composition will certainly have at least 1 champion that gains almost nothing at all from an infernal drake.

Every single champion gains 8% increased auto attack damage, which means a team increase in single target damage of 40% if all you do is auto. That is the point I am making

BloodyTompon1 votes

And that is wrong is the point we are making. 5 aa from one person is the same as 1 auto from 5 different people. In both cases it is an 8% increase. Or 10aa from 1 is the same as 2 aa from 5. It's the number of auto attacks not the number of people.

Maybe it will help if we do an example where only one person has damage increased.

If person A deals 108 (8% increase) and person B deals 100. (no increase)

Then together they deal 208 to person C

If person A did NOT have the 8% increase, they would have dealt 100 each. Then they deal 200 to person C.

So what is the increase from 200 to 208 in percent? 4%. Not 8%. By 1 person having an 8% damage increase and two people attacking they gained a 4% increase. (this is the mistake you are making)

Let us do one where both have an 8% increase.

Person A does 108 Person B does 108

Total done to person C is 216. If there was not the 8% increase on both, it would be 200.

Difference between 200 and 216 in percent? 8% not 16%.

Hakkiman1 votes

sorry to revive this but you are so wrong, there is a TOTAL 8% damage done, per champion, so if 5 people attacked one guy, say Lucian, then Lucian's health goes down 40% quicker!!!

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

sorry to revive this but you are so wrong, there is a TOTAL 8% damage done, per champion, so if 5 people attacked one guy, say Lucian, then Lucian's health goes down 40% quicker!!!

You revived a year old thread to show the world you have no understanding of basic math.

Khristophoros1 votes

So it's extremely good on ADCs? lol thanks rito

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