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An indirect Janna nerf that would make her (along with other heal/shield supports) healthier.

TotalJerk··182 votes·12,060 views

When you heal or shield a target that is in combat with a champion, epic monster, or turret, YOU enter combat as well. What is the point of this change, you may ask?

  1. it disables the item 3117 passive
  2. It disables the Ocean and Cloud Drake passives
  3. It disables the item 3083 passive (this is unrelated to Janna, but has the side benefit of potentially killing Warmog's Soraka completely. This item has been nerfed/changed because of her numerous times, and as a former Soraka main I absolutely hate the build/style because it is boring and cheap)

Part of what I believe contributes to the problem of Enchanter supports is that they can easily abuse the benefits of being out of combat while actively contributing to a fight because the game doesn't consider shielding/healing/buffing as being in combat. Janna is already hard enough to catch out, but being able to throw out shields while maintaining 115 ms from item 3117 and 25/50/75 ms from Cloud Drake just makes it even easier to dodge skillshots and spend minimal time in a risky range.

109 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir99 votes

I'd love if we could make a universal change to what being "out of combat"/"in combat" means. Not sure if that's realistic, though, given the number of different applications of "out of combat" that exist in the game currently. It would definitely make changes like the suggestion here - which I think is actually quite good - much more feasible.

Nice suggestion op.

Lil Homie busta3 votes

In combat: Any HP, stat or shield value modification (self or other unit)-> damage, healing/shielding (self, team, turret, any unit) that isn't natural health recovery (including mundo/garen/Rek'sai passive), stat buff, any buff or debuff, ally or enemy CC/displacement.

Automated Riven7 votes

{quoted}

I'd love if we could make a universal change to what being "out of combat"/"in combat" means. Not sure if that's realistic, though, given the number of different applications of "out of combat" that exist in the game currently. It would definitely make changes like the suggestion here - which I think is actually quite good - much more feasible.

Nice suggestion op.

Hey, considering the topic of shields/heals. Has the design team considered reducing the duration of shields from enchanter champion? I feel like on of the problems with shields in general is that they last too long. It makes enchanters extremely easy to play because you aren't encouraged to actually shield damage. It's a drop and forget spell. Plus champions like Janna and Lulu have long duration shields on a fairly short cool down so they end up with 75-80% uptime (not sure the exact numbers atm as I am on my phone) even karma's shield is fairly long duration.

I feel like it would be alot more fun to play against these champs if shields lasted like 1.5-2 seconds compared to 4-5 seconds. That would allow for supports actually looking good when they drop shields at the right time as well as giving opponents counterplay for actually damaging the shielded target without having to burn through the entire shield just to have it reapplied directly afterward.

Also shields should grant more cool things as the game progresses and more champions are updated/released. (right now we have on hit damage lulu- ad janna- ms karma- and armor/mr Ori) but what if shields granted stuff like tenacity similar to garen w or refreshes the next non ultimate spell cooldown or your next auto attack/spell briefly disrupts the attacked target. More ways for shields to effect the game aside from damage / defense.

(Speaking entirely of enchanter/mage shields. Not the plethora of other shields in the game)

Steelflame8 votes

Several of them end up with 100% uptime when they max CDR.

Automated Riven5 votes

{quoted}

Several of them end up with 100% uptime when they max CDR.

I could be wrong but I think that Janna is the closest with a 5 second shield and a 6.5 second cooldown. If I'm wrong let me know which ones hit 100% uptime.

Sagaxwiki7 votes

Lulu can get to 100% uptime on Help, Pix! with 40% CDR (with 45% CDR she can re-cast the ability before it expires).

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Lulu's the only one, AFAIK. With the possible exception of a shield through overheal, or with Soraka and Aery (If you're right on top of your ally, your W's CD should be less than the time it takes for Aery to come back. But, of course, that'll kill you very quickly.

Nobody else is realistically doing it.

Teridax681 votes

Suppose there were some sort of preexisting definition of "out of combat", e.g. units are counted as out of combat if they haven't struck or been struck by an enemy in the last 4 seconds: what issues would flow from this if this were applied indiscriminately? What would be the biggest abuse cases, and who'd be affected the most negatively?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Suppose there were some sort of preexisting definition of "out of combat", e.g. units are counted as out of combat if they haven't struck or been struck by an enemy in the last 4 seconds: what issues would flow from this if this were applied indiscriminately? What would be the biggest abuse cases, and who'd be affected the most negatively?

None. Its just not physically feasible currently because right now its observed by the spaghetti code as opposed its own true system, is how it is from what i understand.

Kaeblen2 votes

which means that clearing that up would make the game both easier to maintain, AND more efficient for the servers...

Acheron165 votes

Simple, if it allows you to get an assists, it counts as being in combat.

Kaeblen1 votes

wait, wait, wait... Are you confirming my longtime suspicion that "out of combat" is actually defined differently for EVERY SINGLE ABILITY that references being out of combat?

SwiftKitten8840 votes

I'm shocked it doesn't already work this way... that's pretty bs.. it really needs to

RookPusher5 votes

{quoted}

I'm shocked it doesn't already work this way... that's pretty bs.. it really needs to

Same, I would have assumed it brought you into combat. What an oversight.

Naqel16 votes

{quoted}

It disables the item 3083 passive (this is unrelated to Janna, but has the side benefit of potentially killing Warmogs Soraka completely. This item has been nerfed/changed because of her numerous times, and as a former Soraka main I absolutely hate the build/style because it is boring and cheap)

Warmog's Soraka only exists because of how ridiculously prohibitive her healing and recovery mechanic is, especially at a casual level of play(where the pure healer should typically be the easiest and least efficient to use). Transfering life to allies should be a mechanic of a tank with the ability to recover it swiftly, not a squishy caster, in particular in the current burst-per-second marksmen meta.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

Warmog's Soraka only exists because of how ridiculously prohibitive her healing and recovery mechanic is, especially at a casual level of play(where the pure healer should typically be the easiest and least efficient to use). Transfering life to allies should be a mechanic of a tank with the ability to recover it swiftly, not a squishy caster, in particular in the current burst-per-second marksmen meta.

Kill warmogs and very few would oppose giving her better regen mechanics.

PB4UAME7 votes

But very many tanks/juggernauts/bruisers/fighters would be nerfed for. . . making 1 support who's abusing an item that has been largely core to those classes for years, a little less able to abuse their item?

That's like all the fucking changes to give their items to ADCs over the years: item 3004 item 3025 item 3053 item 3153 item 3124 item 3078 item 3156 item 3026 item 3812 item 3022 item 3071 item 3142 just to make them nerfed/unviable for the champions they're actually designed for.

LordGeovanni3 votes

{quoted}

Warmog's Soraka only exists because of how ridiculously prohibitive her healing and recovery mechanic is, especially at a casual level of play(where the pure healer should typically be the easiest and least efficient to use). Transfering life to allies should be a mechanic of a tank with the ability to recover it swiftly, not a squishy caster, in particular in the current burst-per-second marksmen meta.

Transfering life to allies would be a blood mage or vitality mage not a star goddes. But other than that i agree.

k wìx7 votes

Perfect idea. It's a minor change but really could alter the landscape in a healthy way. Do it.

AirKingNeo2 votes

then it wouldn't be a minor change by definition.

PB4UAME1 votes

When you try to correct someone by equivocating what they say, turning it into a strawman. -1/10

AirKingNeo2 votes

It's not a strawman. If you alter the landscape, then it isn't 'minor'; it would be major.

PB4UAME1 votes

If you cut a blade of grass you alter the landscape-- look, you want to argue by definition, then I'm not sure you understand what alteration is.

"Alter (verb) change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way."

Again:

"change [...] typically in a comparatively small but significant way" (emphasis mine).

The whole point of an alteration is that it is a minor change with a larger impact. By definition.

Beacon Academy5 votes

I thought ocean didn't go off until an enemy champ or tower hits you.

Swarovsko5 votes

Soraka using item 3083? In s8? With her base hp? With item 3083 already requiring 3.250 hp? Really? ????? ????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? This is not s5 and that would be a nerf to actual item 3083 users more than bronze Sorakas who prefer like 2 hp items + warmogs instead of item 3107 item 3222 item 3190 anditem 3504.

SpaghettiVase16 votes

Well as of right now Warmong's only requires 2750 health to get the passive, of course this is being changed next patch to 3000 health but Warmong's will still be usable on Soraka if not ideal, I still see it built all the time on her in ARAM and it works fine so why wouldn't it be fine in a SR game?

Mama Soraka17 votes

{quoted}

I still see it built all the time on her in ARAM and it works fine so why wouldn't it be fine in a SR game?

You don't tend to get the gold needed to build mogs and enough bonus health to activate it outside of ARAM.

SpaghettiVase5 votes

I'm not saying it's like a second item for her but if a game goes on long enough you can get the 3000 health requirement from item 3069,item 3107, and item 3083 itself

DeusVult9 votes

You underestimate the throw counter throw mess of Plat-Bronze

Swarovsko4 votes

Find me a challenger/master/d1 Soraka player who builds Warmogs. This is a myth that needs to be eradicated from your minds. She stopped building it in s6 so just stop spreading bullshit this game will never be balanced around bronze elo or ARAM.

Yara03 votes

{quoted}

Find me a challenger/master/d1 Soraka player who builds Warmogs. This is a myth that needs to be eradicated from your minds. She stopped building it in s6 so just stop spreading bullshit this game will never be balanced around bronze elo or whatever.

yah like..... no one fucking builds warmongs soraka and actually wants to win lol.

Dead flag blues13 votes

{quoted}

Soraka using item 3083? In s8? With her base hp? With item 3083 already requiring 3.250 hp? Really? ????? ????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? This is not s5 and that would be a nerf to actual item 3083 users more than bronze Sorakas who prefer like 2 hp items + warmogs instead of item 3107 item 3222 item 3190 anditem 3504.

in ARAM, 99.99% of Soraka build it (the 0.01% build her AD crit) ,it's really unfair to fight, since she's basically a warmog for her entire team

Silverjust6 votes

well her kit is almost usless without good health regen in ARAM, what should she build instead?

kile1479 votes

Theoretically she should be building just support items like Redemption and Ardent. The reason she doesn't is because it's not worth it for her to interact with her opponents. She has terrible defensive stats and can't survive being jumped on at all if she hasn't built health, and the way that she is supposed to recover health is so underwhelming and dangerous (landing Q) that she can't do that either. So instead of building support items and getting very efficient but also incredibly risky heals with limited sustain she builds Warmongs and just spams low power heals. Basically every nerf Riot has made to her since her rework has had the goal of discouraging "Health Battery" Soraka and has had the opposite effect because they keep making her intended playstyle riskier.

Provengreil8 votes

this. Even as full AP soraka, landing a Q in aram will heal basically nothing, and bring you in engage range with about 2/3 of the champions in the game. Warmogs isn't just her only safe option in that mode, it's the only viable one.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

Theoretically she should be building just support items like Redemption and Ardent. The reason she doesn't is because it's not worth it for her to interact with her opponents. She has terrible defensive stats and can't survive being jumped on at all if she hasn't built health, and the way that she is supposed to recover health is so underwhelming and dangerous (landing Q) that she can't do that either. So instead of building support items and getting very efficient but also incredibly risky heals with limited sustain she builds Warmongs and just spams low power heals. Basically every nerf Riot has made to her since her rework has had the goal of discouraging "Health Battery" Soraka and has had the opposite effect because they keep making her intended playstyle riskier.

Do people not build support on her? What a waste.

I run Redemption, Locket (as well as Visage and Warmogs) when I get her in ARAM and can survive things that come at me pretty well.

kile1471 votes

That's what I build as well, but the items she should be building should be item 3504, item 3158, item 3107, item 3222 /item 3174 ,item 3312/item 3306 , item 3907 , item 3190 . Riot doesn't want her focusing on health to get the warmongs passive because it's a non-interactive playstyle.

Anu3isII3 votes

What about Karma, who uses her E for Map-Mobility?

What about Speed-Ups that indirectly Shield people (Lulu's W with Aery for example).

TotalJerk45 votes

As I said in the OP, the change will only put you in combat if you use heals/shields on targets that are themselves in combat with champions, epic monsters, or turrets.

Anu3isII3 votes

Oh sorry, my bad. Then I kinda agree with your change.

The weird part would be when do you consider an Ally out-of-combat? After 8 seconds, like Mobi? How can someone see the cooldown?

I would suggest it to be more like this: When an ally recently shielded/healed/buffed by you enters in combat, you enter in combat.

OJPhoenix1 votes

{quoted}

As I said in the OP, the change will only put you in combat if you use heals/shields on targets that are themselves in combat with champions, epic monsters, or turrets.

And it is precisely this detail that really makes this suggestion fantastic and intuitive.

Chess13 votes

thats a huge nerf to bard

ahferroin73 votes

This wouldn't change anything about Warmogs. It's passive has nothing to do with being in combat, it's reset by taking damage (just like Garen's passive).

OverpoweredSoap3 votes

While I see what you mean, this generally doesn't change many of the champions its suppose to hit.

Most champions that have shields still want to interact with the enemy to ensure they don't get away or that they stay away from their ally/adc.

Janna will throw out Q and W, which will put her in combat if it hits.

Karma throws most of her kit at the enemy once she uses Mantra E so she can get mantra again and be useful so she's usually always in combat.

Lulu Q's the enemy to slow them, W will CC them and ult will also CC them, so it puts her in combat.

Ivern Throws out Q which will put him in combat if it hits, and he pokes with W passive auto, additionally his E does do damage after awhile so it will eventually put him in combat if it hits. I'm pretty sure Daisy hitting someone puts him in combat, though I'm not exactly sure.

Sona Q poke and passive which will put her in combat, which she usually wants to use to benefit her team with its aura.

Soraka wants to constantly hit Q so she can sustain her self enough to heal and E is very important to her impact without her heal and it puts her in combat.

Nami Q will put her in combat, and her W which she sometimes doesn't have a lot of control of herself (it relies on ally and enemy positioning, more so than hers a lot of the time) if it bounces to an enemy will put her in combat, if an ally hits an enemy with her E I'm pretty sure it puts her in combat too (not sure about that one).

Bard Will Q to stun and his heal isn't that great and is mostly used out of combat, which means if someone uses it even though he's not in combat it would put him in combat even though he isn't.

Rakan Uses his E mostly for mobility but he's very short ranged for an echanter mage so he's usually in combat anyways.

Taric Mostly the same instance (except mobility obviously) as Rakan, short ranged and his stun puts him in combat.

A lot of these champions are already in combat when they shield, and will cast spells that hit enemies even when they are themselves are on the run. I don't think this will really change much, but having it in wouldn't really hurt anyone except maybe Bard since he puts shrines down for his allies to use around the map.

Most of the champions in the game aren't going to be spamming their shield/heal without interacting with the enemy, they're not going to sit back and just do that, they will often also be using their other abilities while autoing.

Also apologies for grammar errors, I'm tired and sick atm lol.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

If you want to kill Warmogs Soraka, just make self-damage count as being in combat.

Mama Soraka2 votes

While I approve of this change only if it is specifically added to Soraka's W, If you just make self-damage count as being in combat you indirectly effect Mundo and Vlad.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

Thought about Mundo already. Either he's inflicting that self-damage while splitpushing (in which case his passive alone should suffice, he doesn't need the Warmog passive) or he's already fighting someone, in which case he wasn't getting Warmogs passive anyway. Mundo shouldn't care about this at all.

Not sure about Vlad, I haven't played him much since his rework, but I don't remember ever seeing a Vlad build Warmogs, AFAIK he usually just gets SV then runs AP.

Kaeblen2 votes

that's a problem because... why?

Mama Soraka2 votes

I didn't mean to imply it was a problem as much as when making changes to a system while specifically targeting Soraka we should keep in mind there would be casualties (unintended or otherwise) in the kits of other characters.

This thread was targeted towards healing and shielding supports so I figured I should mention some characters outside that scope that this change would effect. It is best to consider all angles and potential side-effects of a big change like this, isn't it?

[sg-lux-2]

Kaeblen1 votes

unexpected consequences.

I guess thats a valid point then.

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