A Post about Duality, Overwatch and Karma

SilverSquid··18 votes·5,711 views

Hey folks this is Rhykker, this is gonna be a long one again. If you don't like long reads, please move along. For everyone else; There will be parts about game design, about Karma and a rework suggestion in the end. Skip (to) any part you like. TL;DR at the bottom.

https://meromtzion.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/transcending-duality.jpg

What Is Duality

I think everyone has a rough idea of duality. "It's, like, when stuff has two sides, you know?" Arguably there is more to it though, and I will try to show you the differences between the different ideas about duality. To do this in a not-so-boring way, I will use hero designs from Overwatch to explain. If you don't know what Overwatch is what kind of rock have you been living under, mate?, it's basically a TeamFortress 2 clone done by BLIZZARD. But with shiny butts instead of sparkling hats. You could also imagine it as a lovechild of TF2 & LoL; a fun objective based shooter with class based abilities, weapons and ultimates.

As such, there are some hero designs in Overwatch that we can study and borrow ideas from. For the purpose of Duality we will take a look at Zenyatta, Zarya and the most recent hero: Ana.

https://overwatch-a.akamaihd.net/img/logos/overwatch-share-3d5a268515283007bdf3452e877adac466d579f4b44abbd05aa0a98aba582eeaebc4541f1154e57ec5a43693345bebda953381a7b75b58adbd29d3f3eb439ad2.jpg

What Is Duality in Overwatch

Blizzard had an interesting and ingenious approach to the support classes in Overwatch. Instead of making them the usual boring utility bots, they gave every single one of them playmaking abilities and ways to deal damage. This includes melee attacks - that every hero in the game has - and a hero specific weapon. Even the most pure healslut healer in Overwatch, Mercy, can switch to a simple blaster and start.... well... blasting baddies. Occasionally, this leads to unexpected, but very satisfying kills.

As you can see, there is some killer in every healer in Overwatch. Two sides. Two opposites. Healing and hurting. Duality. But Mercy has maybe one of the weakest forms of it. Let's look at Zenyatta.

http://images.mein-mmo.de/magazin/medien/2016/06/Overwatch-Zenyatta-Posing-970x500.jpg ZENYATTA Zenyatta is a robot-monk that is all about peace & harmony and wields some metal balls that he will willingly wack into the face of anyone who doesn't like all the peace he is spreading. Not only is he the (off)healer with one of the highest damage potential, he also has two abilities "Orb of Harmony" and "Orb of Discord". The first one is a HoT (Healing over Time) that he can place on any ally, the second increases the damage taken by an unlucky foe.

In a way Zenyatta is similar to champions like Lux or Morgana. He has clearly defensive abilities in his kits, that need to be used to full potential (shields) and some abilities that are mainly there for offense/damage purposes. To master those characters, you need to use both parts to their fullest potential. You might argue that this is already very dualistic, and technically that would be true. However, when playing them you don't feel like actually making choices between offense and defense, and understanding the offensive value of a good defensive spell (and vice versa) seems to not be highlighted. And in terms of duality, I think we can go a step further. Let's look at Ana.

http://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/header_ana_amari_rifle.jpg ANA Ana is a sniper, but a weird sniper. Her shots will hurt hit enemies (duh) and heal hit allies (wat?). In contrast to Mercy she doesn't have to switch weapons, she has both damage and heal available to her all the time. However, she still has to decide, who to hit; when it's better to heal and when damage is more needed (cuz dead heroes deal no damage, which sometimes prevents more damage than you could heal). Clear duality, again. But this time, with a dash of exclusiveness. Like in, they exclude each other. However, the most interesting part about Ana is just about to be revealed

and compared to most other Overwatch heroes, it's not an oversexualised body part. Yay!

Her healing grenade. Yeah, okay, we kind of left the borders of reason here (when nailing your friends with 5mm syringes to "heal" them wasn't already pushing it, there's "healing" grenades. Coz exploding antibiotics in someone's face is clearly benign), but it makes sense in terms of gameplay. So this grenade does a lot of things. First of all, it heals hit allies (okay), it hurts hit enemies (reasonable), it buffs hit allies (well then) and it debuffs hit enemies (....really?). The buff is a 100% heal increase for a few seconds and the debuff is a 100% heal REDUCTION for a few seconds.

Ideally, you want this to hit everyone in the entire game, all the time, always. There isn't anyone you DONT want to hit. It's your selfheal, buffs your healing on your tanks, annoys/counters enemy healers and finishes off enemies around corners. What's not to like? But here comes the kicker; as you obviously want to hit anyone you also have to realize you CAN'T possibly hit everyone. You have to constantly decide when and how to use this valuable cooldown. Any target hit means 11 possible targets NOT hit. I think this makes the ability fun, gives it creativity, depth and with a certain simplicity it features a high skillceiling.

https://blzgdapipro-a.akamaihd.net/media/screenshot/zarya-screenshot-001.jpg ZARYA So what is our beloved bear-wrestling, weightlifting, totally-not-tumblr-using, russian bae doing here? Officially she is not a "support" class, but a tank. However, she sometimes plays a lot like one; she has two shields, one for herself and one for some random ally. Absorbing damage with those shields increases Zarya's damage output, allowing her to bully and zone enemies, forcing them to focus her, gaining more charge and dealing more damage in the process, drawing more fire (away from her allies) to herself again.

While this isn't necessarily straight up "duality", she still has protection & people pounding built into her kit. Also, the more damage she absorbs the more damage she deals. Interestingly, this is both a nice way to check someone's skill, as well as providing a karmatic karmic feel to her. You could even say she has a playstyle very fitting for a battle-enchanter. Keep that in mind, we will be using that idea later in the post.

https://signup.euw.leagueoflegends.com/theme/signup_new_theme/img/logo-lol-smaller.png

Duality in League of Legends

So after looking closely at Overwatch, what can we find in our favourite MOBA?

Clearly the games are different. There are no, lanes, levels and items in Overwatch, so champions can't be "underfarmed" at any point. As such, the power of supports In Overwatch is closer to the power a Midlane Sona can offer in LoL. Or compare it to what supports can buckle in ARAM games, if you ever had the joy of getting blown away by an 700 AP Janna for only 2.99 a minute, you will know what I mean.

Champions like Sona and Soraka offer both damage and heals in lane, however, as a reality, their damage becomes insignificant as the game progresses. A true duality champion should probably have both parts equally relevant to them for the whole game.

A champion that gets brought up frequently when talking about duality is Lulu Lulu. Most of her abilities have two applications, one for allies, one for enemies. One buff or one debuff. This could remind you of Ana's sniper rifle; it offers constant decision making in whether to be helpful or hurtful, but it's.... JUST exclusive. It can never be both.

But there are healgrenade-y abilities in LoL! Abilities that - in a perfect world - will always hit everyone on both teams. They are featured on Ezreal, Orianna and Nami:

Ezreal Ezreal's W speeds up allies and damages enemies. Ideally you buff your team and burst the opposing one with a single use. You might even be surprised to hear read, that Ezreal used to HEAL allies with his ability. Crazy, right? Anyways, this wouldn't make sense on any AD caster today, so there might be a good reason for why it was removed.

Orianna Orianna's W is probably the closest to Ana's healgrenade. It both speeds and slows, while dealing damage. Personally, I consider it a very healthy and useful ability in the game, so I can see a room for them in LoL. Especially on Support Mages, i.e. mages that are at home in midlane, but offer utility & decent damage, instead of pure teamwiping damage.

Nami Nami, for some reason, is rarely considered, but has the highest amount of "dualistic" abilities; her W clearly wants you to hit an enemy target to gain an extra heal, or the other way around. This feels somewhat like Ana's healgrenade, but also more fixed, less flexible and weirdly missplaced on a utility based support. There's also her Q and R. Both feature strong CC to disrupt enemy movement, but - if you didn't know - hitting allies with them will trigger her passive and INCREASE their movement. They are just kind of.... favourably put on enemies, rather than teammates, so if you ever have to decide, it's usually a no-brainer.

Oh, yeah, and the most important one:

http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/March_2013/03_19_2013_-_karma_ama/LOL.com.Banner.Article.KarmaRework.jpg

Let's Talk Karma

Karma is a midlaner with shields and damage. She is what we discussed in Zenyatta. The "well, here you have some damage abilities and some protection abilities, off you go; just spam them" kind of duality. A good, but not perfectly satisfying kind of duality, like Ana's healing grenade would be.

But as some people maybe already eagerly want to shout out: "Hey, SilverSquid, she USED to have this tho! Her RQ used to be exactly like the healgrenade!" Yes. Yes, exactly. Her shield was also similar, as it challenged you to find someone that needed protection and could also be used to place your shieldbomb, to get the best of both worlds. Protection and a nuke.

I don't really want to argue whether Karma needed an update and whether it made her better or worse; however, i find it weird that the "healgrenade duality" was removed back then from her, it was removed from Ezreal and it hasn't been introduced on a new champion yet. Why?

This is what is interesting to me. I really enjoy this flexible, decision heavy part of duality and I would love to see it in League of Legends. I do enjoy it a lot in Overwatch currently, so I thought a long time about where it would fit in LoL or why it couldn't work. The answers I came up with: 1) On Karma 2) I don't know why not.

So I wrote a rework concept, based on what I saw working on Overwatch.

Karma's Design

Before we do this though, some quick points.

Does Karma need a rework As far as I've read in the last year or so, Karma should get a rework, but doesn't need one. Or put more clearly; she could really use one, just like a suprising lot of champions could use the work. The usual opinion seems to paint Karma as more bland than she should be and painfully less fleshed out than she could be. But NOT directly problematic. So.... too little for Riot to prioritize her in the next 1 or 2 years, but enough issues for me to work on.

What Should Karma Be As discussed in THIS thread, Karma seems to have parts of too many identities. Her Q and RQ suggest her being an artillery or burst mage, her RW gives her survivability akin to a battlemage, her AoE speedup and shielding are moves enchanters should have, whereas her 3.25s root just screams disruptor. In the linked thread people overwhelmingly agreed that Karma should be a Battlemage/Enchanter hybrid, and I tried respecting that. I attempted cutting her CC, range and burst, to move her away from artillery, burst and disrupting, and make room for more defined close combat abilities, both for offense and defense. Lastly, I made sure that all her abilities could profit her team in a certain way, to hammer down the enchanter part.

What About her Identity I try to be very respectful to Old and New Karma fans alike. Whereas the loss for Old Karma fans should be heard and adressed, I don't think ignoring fans of the new and more shiny Karma is a good way either. I tried my best retaining the most liked parts of both worlds to create a champion both sides could like. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get back her fanweapons or the Twin Dragons people loved about my latest rework. If you fancy visual identity, you might prefer that rework of mine. Check it out if you have the time!

http://file.thisisgame.com/upload/tboard/user/2013/03/19/20130319114213_7965.png

Analyzing and Creating a Kit

I'll try to highlight my thoughts on every ability before I present the finished project.

** Passive - Bringing Ionian Flair ** Since the passive of another crest-wearing Ionian got adressed in a recent patch, I was eager to see whether I could borrow from it. I don't know whether the "outnumbered" mechanic works well in the game and whether it will stick around, but I wanted to give it a shot. I like the idea of Irelia's and Karma's crest passives being related. I tried to not give Karma straight up power with this passive, but more opportunities instead. This should be more fit for a caster in the midst of battle. CDR instead of tenacity seemed both thematically and mechanically fitting. And just like the current passive it builds on and synergizes with Karma's core stat.

Q - Poking and Healing Karma's Q is not mind blowingly unique, but unique nonetheless. I tried keeping it. However, as with all her abilities, I tried to introduce some.... duality to it. A conditional one. One that encourages Karma to be close to enemies, one that sustains her allies in battle, one that can turn the tides in battle. A heal on top of it made sense, when thinking about her old ability. However, I made sure that Karma wouldn't offer free sustain, like Sona or Soraka do. She should be able to heal IN fights, not BETWEEN them. Battle enchanters heal in the midst of fighting, dummy, they don't take breaks.

** RQ - Teamfighting and Equity** Karma's mantras need to have different purposes and real choices that are useful in every role, not dominate each other based on builds. Karma also needs to somehow adress her equalizing identity. Consequently, I tried making this ability the one you wanna use to turn tides in battle, using both the healing and damaging component to... make the battlefield more equal. Whether it's a combat starter or a turnaround ability, it should find its place in static teamfights.

W - About the Tether Reworking the tether is hard. Really. It gets overloaded so quickly. I hope I succeded in taking only the most essential parts; damage, touch mechanic and positioning as a duo. I tried making it an ability that would let you get INTO fights, but also reward clever positioning IN fights. And I made very sure it was neither as team-reliant as her old tether, nor as boring as the current one. RQ interaction for sololanes!

RW - Team Mobility I would've loved to exclude this, but Karma needs the team mobility. It has become part of her identity. While the current iteration is wayyyyyyy too reliable, thus boring and oppressive, her old one was VERY unreliable. I hope I hit a sweetspot by combining Jace E and Rumble R.

E - Zarya's Input The idea of hurting those who try to hurt is very karmic and must find a place in her kit. I borrowed the idea from Zarya and tried to rework it into the shieldbomb mechanic. Alas I didn't give her free damage, but damage potential (Zarya has to block damage and then use the time window to retaliate). I tried to NOT make people WANT to attack Karma's prey. In exchange, I made the shield a lot shorter, so there is some downtime to it. Current Karma can shield forever, which becomes toxic quickly.

RE - Reliable damage For teamfights, this offers single-target protection and damage. With some skill and planning this can do a lot of things. Without it it just deals slightly more damage than the other abilities, with way less impact overall. But it's extra damage, that can get a lot very quickly. Also it's Karma's.... staple ability, if you know what I mean? Shield+bomb=Karma, right?

R - The Mantra Charges Debate I kept the relative power of Mantra down, I hope. I also tried increasing Mantra's power periodically; current Karma would be too strong with 2 charges at lvl1 and falls off hard at lvl6+. Like really, her winrate just plumets. My solution is; give her 2 charges after lvl6. Seems logical. I think. Also there is a forced CD in there to stop Karma from mantraing all her abilities all the time in teamfights. Shouldn't be broken, but could be. Testing only in my mind is hard.

https://i.imgflip.com/1av29y.jpg

FULL REWORK

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122919 P - Unbroken Resolve

Karma gains bonus CDR when her team is outnumbered. This CDR can break the CDR limit by up to 5/10/15% (@ lvl 1/7/14)

  • Karma’s team is stronger: 0% CDR
  • Karma’s team is equal: 10% CDR
  • Karma’s team is outnumbered: 20% CDR

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/ad/Inner_Flame.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920&format=webp Q - Inner Flame

25% slow removed Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies. Hitting enemy champions creates a spark of redemption that seeks out an allied champions near them. If it finds one it heals them by 10/20/35/55/80(+1/50AP) increased by 3% for every 1% health the target is missing.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/45/Soulflare.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122923&format=webp RQ - Crest of Equity

Karma's Inner Flame passes through all enemies hit (can't damage enemies more than once) until it reaches target location, where it creates a hovering Crest that she can tether to. Enemies around the Crest take 4/5/6/7% (+1%/100AP) of their current health as magic damage every second. Allied champions around the Crest heal 4/5/6/7% (+1%/100AP) of their missing health every second. The crest can't be walked through and lasts for 4s (5 ticks).

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0c/Focused_Resolve.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122918&format=webp W - Soul Link

Karma creates a tether between herself and a target for 2s. Karma and any ally she tethers to gain 40/45/50/55/60% bonus movement speed as long as the tether persists. Any enemy touching the tether for the first time and a tethered enemy that doesn't break it for 2s take 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% AP) magic damage.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2a/Renewal.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122922&format=webp RW - Ionia's Soul

Karma creates a tether that hangs freely suspended in the air for 4s, testing the souls of anyone passing. In addition to applying Soul Link's damage, passing enemies are slowed by 40/50/60/70% for 1s, while passing allies gain 40/50/60/70% bonus movementspeed for 2s.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c4/Inspire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920&format=webp E - Soul Ward

Karma shields target allied champion or herself for 2s absorbing up to 50/80/110/150/190 (+50%AP) damage. If the shield gets broken by damage, Karma's next Soul Ward will deal 50/80/110/150/190 (+50%AP) magic damage in a small area around the target. Karma can target a minion, ward or her crest to apply this damage, but it will not shield them.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/40/Defiance.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122917&format=webp RE - Defiance

Sould Ward overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield by 30/80/130/180 (+30%AP) and the duration to 4s. Additionally, 0.5s after applying the shield it explodes dealing 60/120/200/300 (+60% AP) magic damage in a big area, increased by Soul Ward's damage.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Mantra.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122921&format=webp R - Mantra

Charges: 1/2/2/3 Recharge: 30s (scales with CDR) Cooldown: 8s after using Mantra (fixed) Karma empowers her next basic ability within 8s. At lvl3 Karma can charge this ability faster by casting spells or hitting enemies. Shielding, healing or speeding up an ally gains Karma 1s per ally (excluding herself). Dealing damage to enemy champions gains Karma 2s for spells and 1s for Basic Attacks. Karma can not gain more than 3s per spell.

Duality and This Rework

So, Karma's Passive, E and RQ have this "equalizing" feeling to them. They are an incentive to turn around the battlefield. This might fit the "karma" theme more than the "duality" theme though.

On the duality front, every basic ability should now feature it: Q can hurt and heal (poke or duel?) and asks you to carefully consider when to use it. W can help reposition or gets back at the enemy for their bad positioning. E can protect and punish, provided you have the reflexes and situational awareness. All of these can have one or both effects, but either way, they will reward wise judgement of the situation or understanding the offensive and defensive properties of any ability. Befitting of a champion, that is about wisdom, duality and karma.

Unfortunately, and contrary to Old Karma, this iteration doesn't introduce the duality feeling with mantra (Q damage -> RQ damage & heal), but it otherwise doesn't work: Basic abilities that only do one thing are boring, outdated and kind or problematic. Having secondary effects AND adding duality effects with mantra makes the abilities overloaded. So I went with upgrading them to different teamfighting tools instead. I think it should work well enough.

But I shouldn't be the judge of myself. Please, tell me what you think! Or share any thoughts on Overwatch, Duality or Karma! And thanks for sticking with me. I know reading all of this is quite some work. So have my thanks!

TL;DR - Too Long; Didn't Read

  • Overwatch is like TF2 with butts and ultimates.
  • Supports in Overwatch always heal and hurt (can we copy some stuff?)
  • I discuss Mercy, Zenyatta, Ana and Zarya; Mercy is a healslu....a healer with a gun, Zenyatta is a metal-ball-throwing, peace loving robot monk, Ana is a support sniper that features duality and Zarya is a battlemage.
  • I discuss Lux, Morgana, Orianna, Lulu, Ezreal, Nami and finally Karma: Lux/Morgana are similar to Zenyatta, Orianna has Ana's healgrenade, Lulu/Ezreal/Nami have some duality and Karma could use it.
  • I create a kit and explain way too much.

28 Comments

IxtaliKing2 votes

P - Unbroken Resolve Karma gains bonus CDR when her team is outnumbered. This CDR can break the CDR limit by up to 5/10/15% (@ lvl 1/7/14) Karma’s team is stronger: 0% CDR Karma’s team is equal: 10% CDR Karma’s team is outnumbered: 20% CDR

I like this passive, this type of against the odds trope is a good one for Ionian champs and I hope Riot goes with this. This kind of passive looks like it could work quite well on current Karma too, for the most part.

Q - Inner Flame 25% slow removed Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies. Hitting enemy champions creates a spark of redemption that seeks out an allied champions near them. If it finds one it heals them by 10/20/35/55/80(+1/50AP) increased by 3% for every 1% health the target is missing.

I see what you're going for here, I've always felt like the duality being in her Mantra was what made her special. Other champs can have double sided normal abilities, but for Karma's mantra she'd have something much bigger and more interesting. Personally I think it's a cool and logical Idea, but I'm not sure people who like current Karma would appreciate it.

RQ - Crest of Equity Karma's Inner Flame passes through all enemies hit (can't damage enemies more than once) until it reaches target location, where it creates a hovering Crest that she can tether to. Enemies around the Crest take 4/5/6/7% (+1%/100AP) of their current health as magic damage every second. Allied champions around the Crest heal 4/5/6/7% (+1%/100AP) of their missing health every second. The crest can't be walked through and lasts for 4s (5 ticks).

This is an interesting ability, I'd imagine throwing this ability out then casting W on it for the immediate damage. I like the idea RQ creating a DoT/HoT zone, reminds me of Lyra's Imperial Sigil (from Vainglory). Would this be a ground targeted AoE?

W - Soul Link Karma creates a tether between herself and a target for 2s. Karma and any ally she tethers to gain 40/45/50/55/60% bonus movement speed as long as the tether persists. Any enemy touching the tether for the first time and a tethered enemy that doesn't break it for 2s take 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% AP) magic damage.

The speed boost definitely makes sense on the tether, but what happens after she's tethered the enemy for 2s? Also, does she get the ms boost when she tethers an enemy?

RW - Ionia's Soul Karma creates a tether that hangs freely suspended in the air, testing the souls of anyone passing. In addition to applying Soul Link's damage, passing enemies are slowed by 40/50/60/70% for 1s, while passing allies gain 40/50/60/70% bonus movementspeed for 2s.

Another very logical move, not sure how fun this ability would be to use though.

E - Soul Ward Karma shields target allied champion or herself for 2s absorbing up to 50/80/110/150/190 (+50%AP) damage. If the shield gets broken by damage, Karma's next Soul Ward will deal 50/80/110/150/190 (+50%AP) magic damage in a small area around the target. Karma can target a minion, ward or her crest to apply this damage, but it will not shield them.

Does she get a reduced CD if the shield is broken?

RE - Defiance Sould Ward overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield by 30/80/130/180 (+30%AP) and the duration to 4s. Additionally, 0.5s after applying the shield it explodes dealing **60/120/200/300 (+60% AP) magic damage in a big area, increased by Soul Ward's damage. _

Good old shield bomb xD.

R - Mantra Charges: 1/2/2/3 Recharge: 30s (scales with CDR) Cooldown: 8s after using Mantra (fixed) Karma empowers her next basic ability within 8s. At lvl3 Karma can charge this ability faster by casting spells or hitting enemies. Shielding, healing or speeding up an ally gains Karma 1s per ally (excluding herself). Dealing damage to enemy champions gains Karma 2s for spells and 1s for Basic Attacks. Karma can not gain more than 3s per spell.

Giving a small CD in between each mantra charge is a good way of balancing them, and keeping her gathering fire passive on her mantra to reduce that CD allows her to keep a similar playstyle. That's a pretty good idea.

Overall I think your rework is pretty good, but I can't imagine fans of current Karma appreciating it. Too many of them like the simple power of her RQ and RE to give it up completely.

SilverSquid2 votes

Hey man, thanks for the feedback!

Q Yeah, the problem here is the following: Either you have the dualistic effects on the basic abilities, then mantra gets kind of boring. Or you only have the dualistic effects on mantra, but then the base abilities are either boring or everything gets overloaded because of the many effects you have. I tried to keep it slim and simple, the "duality" effects on the base abilities.... optional, but guaranteed with mantra. It's a compromise, I guess.

RQ Since it deals damage by passing through, the targetting works similar to Olaf's axes or Fizz' ultimate. Directional, but up to a target point.

W "what happens after she's tethered the enemy for 2s?" Any enemy touching the tether for the first time and a tethered enemy that doesn't break it for 2s take magic damage. "Also, does she get the ms boost when she tethers an enemy?" Yes. I thought this was clear from the way I wrote it, but I maybe tried to hard at making the description short and simple.

RW It's a Jayce E, that can be more freely applied and has slightly more impact (damage and stuff). It is mostly for teamfighting, or for escapes, when you don't have something to tether to. It is arguably more powerful than current RE, but also needs proper placement and timing.

E No, the cooldown would be set. However, with enough CDR, the cooldown of this ability could go down to 3,2s (max CDR, mastery and outnumbered). In lane this ability should be more like a buildup "oh, she just blocked that. I need to prepare for her next shield, she could use it". So you either need to hide from lane minions to avoid the easy poke, or force her to shield herself from range.

RE Yay :D

Overall I think your rework is pretty good, but I can't imagine fans of current Karma appreciating it. Too many of them like the simple power of her RQ and RE to give it up completely.

Since Karma is in the meta now, I don't expect everyone, that picked her up recently, to understand what she is about, what her issues are and what she used to be. It's hard. But I just needed to get his version out there.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Since Karma is in the meta now, I don't expect everyone, that picked her up recently, to understand what she is about, what her issues are and what she used to be. It's hard. But I just needed to get his version out there.

Yeah I agree, lcs and meta sheep do tend to ruin champs too. I liked your other rework more because it seemed to keep a lot of what her rework did well and expand on it, that's what Karma needs; to be fleshed out. You got rid of that tether too, which apparently a lot people feel is the lowest point of her kit.

That RQ DoT/HoT is something I'd really like to see on her, even if they reduce the initial damage a but to amp up the zone damage, I think that would be fun.

SilverSquid1 votes

I liked your other rework more because it seemed to keep a lot of what her rework did well and expand on it, that's what Karma needs; to be fleshed out.

I know, but I also try to give options. Like, if we don't want to add identity to her, just make her current kit.... better.

You got rid of that tether too, which apparently a lot people feel is the lowest point of her kit.

It was one of the best parts in her old kit. Without the tether-touch-mechanic it's just a poor man's LeBlanc tether, that's why it's so awful. This version is easy, slim and would work with the kit. I can see why the duality-crest system might work better for some, but the tether idea was kind of core to Karma too.

That RQ DoT/HoT is something I'd really like to see on her, even if they reduce the initial damage a but to amp up the zone damage, I think that would be fun.

Personally, I would be looking forward to playing around with E and W more, but RQ would offer incredible teamfighting power, yeah.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I know, but I also try to give options. Like, if we don't want to add identity to her, just make her current kit.... better.

I can't really see Riot going for anything else tbh, maybe I've just become a little pessimistic when it comes to Karma nowadays. That's why I've always tried to push for the minimal, like making RQ a ground targeted DoT/HoT, giving RW an ally interaction, brining back her shield bomb etc...

It was one of the best parts in her old kit. Without the tether-touch-mechanic it's just a poor man's LeBlanc tether, that's why it's so awful.

That's exactly it, her current tether is garbage. Her old tether was a lot more interesting, but everytime I see someone mention it some know it all comes along to shut it down. I think an updated version of her original tether could be a game changer for her though.

Dukues2 votes

I know its to discuss the concept of duality but feel Overwatch needs to stop being discussed with League. There are separate games stop comparing them to each other. Like the duality in supports in Overwatch is not as great as you make it out to be. I mean its partially a first person shooter so it makes sense they have some weapons. Supports in leagues can all defend themselves as well. I have never played the new sniper chick in Overwatch so not really sure about her. You talk about "mercy blasting baddies" but she really doesn't Like yea... she basically has an auto attack ... WOW great duality.... The other supports you mention do, but there healing is generally not that great.

I got too hung up on the Overwatch part and I know its not really what this post is about but honestly the duality and diversity in Overwatch really is not that great so don't really see the point in including it at all.

Edit: I mean if you really want to talk about duality and use a blizzard game you should really use their MOBA.... Heroes of the Swarm. Instead of items you choose different skills for each champion each game. So you can basically take a support character and make them a healer/shielder or take them damage. Obviously its different than League where each character has sent skills so it really probably doesn't make sense to compare them after all. As in league you can't really be straight up great support with also having the ability to be a supper bad ass laner as its too hard to balance a kit that allows both. Maybe I just don't understand duality :/.

SilverSquid4 votes

Overwatch and League are sure different games, but there are also similarities. I like taking useful and established designs from other games and in my mind try to adapt them to another game. To make this tangeable for the reader, I just used two very popular games.

You talk about "mercy blasting baddies" but she really doesn't Like yea... she basically has an auto attack ... WOW great duality

Erm, well, her damage is considerably stronger than an AA in LoL is. I have solo'd the one or other Genji or Tracer at times. And as I said in my post, this is very weak on the duality part.

The other supports you mention do, but there healing is generally not that great.

Yeah, sure. Other supports heal less and deal more damage. That's kind of the point. Zen is one of the candidates where the damage and heal values are actually really close, usually. Lucio does surprising amounts of damage too, while easily keeping up with Mercy. Maybe one of the reasons why he is top tier all the time.

honestly the duality and diversity in Overwatch really is not that great so don't really see the point in including it at all.

There are some duality concepts that worked in Overwatch, i.e. another very successfull hero-based game. I could've talked about Heroes of the Storm too, yes, but I had to decide for one thing. And OW is the most popular atm, especially to LoL players.

As in league you can't really be straight up great support with also having the ability to be a supper bad ass laner as its too hard to balance a kit that allows both. Maybe I just don't understand duality :/.

Yeah, it is a hard concept. And I don't think I did a good job at making it that much clearer. But after rewriting the OW part 4 times, I kind of gave up. That being said; there is a room for a support-sololaner, as I would see it. First of all, there's champs like Annie, Brand, Trundle, that are first and foremost sololaners, but work as support. Second of all, I deliberately try to create an enchanter, that can either enchant themselves and be a battlemage, or enchant others, to make them durable in battle. If you make it scale properly, you can let this be a good sololane kit and a decent support kit. Something Karma should've been all the time...

And sorry for taking my time, I was kind of distracted by real life ;)

inplane2 votes

I play the shit out of Ana in Overwatch and she's my most played with like 41 hours in QP and 8 hours in Season 2. Duality is so bloody fun. It gives offensive and defensive options so you never feel too restricted. I feel like Karma doesn't even have Duality anymore. Her Q felt so unique, but it's been turned into a bland skillshot. Her shield bomb being removed was just a slap to the face. It offered reliable damage and options to work around the enemy.

It's sad when a team-based FPS with 23 heroes has more duality than a MOBA with over 100 champs.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

Really interesting writeup.

What do you think about Zilean ?

At least one ability with duality, E? Can speed or slow one friendly or unfriendly target.

Is R too .... I don't know... one dimensional? You R someone for them to escape or go in. If they go in then the enemy has to decide when to kill them. I don't know.

SilverSquid3 votes

Thanks, man!

Zilean's E is surely very similar to everyhing in Lulu's kit. It is exclusive (either/or), but it can't have both (would be different, if it was an AoE effect). I would've explicitly discussed him too, but he didn't add anything relevant to this topic or the rework, so I had to cut him. The post is unbearably long anyways... R is as much a duality ability, as any speedbuff, for example. It can also be used to engage or escape. But it's such a watered down duality it doesn't really count anymore.

I personally see Zilean as one of the most utility-based support mages. Lux got the range/burst, Morgana got CC, Orianna is about teamfighting, Zil's got dem utilities and Karma.... well, Karma could be the most resilent. Currently she is a bit too much of everything and too little of something. But this is also one more thing this rework tries to fix.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

I like your ideas.

Your "RQ - Crest of Equity" is interesting. Kind of working off Trundle pillar, and some other things maybe like Anivia wall or JarvanIV ultimate. I like how nobody can pass, even allies, so it's equal.

SilverSquid1 votes

The "RQ - Crest of Equity" is less supposed to be like a Trundle pillar, but more like Thresh's lantern. It's that it makes sense, that people can't walk through it, and it feels tangeable, not necessarily a gameplay aspect. It's a similar reason for why knockups, like the one from Alistar or Cho, have a slow at the end of their duration, even though it isn't necessary. It's about conveying a feeling of impact. And I think giving it a certain solidity in this world, as well as a way of failing (you can block yourself) or succeeding (block small pathways) makes the spell so much more interesting.

But again; thanks for the feedback!

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

you create the same thread every 3 months.

SilverSquid3 votes

Did I travel back in time and post about Overwatch before I started playing it?

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

no i mean this whole karma rework thing

SilverSquid8 votes

Yeah, Karma reworks are kind of my thing.

Everytime I post one, I learn more about communicating, game design, what the community wants and people keep approaching me with ideas even weeks later. I try to take it all in and improve, to present the boards with only the highest of quality posts.

If you don't like it, just move along. You don't have to read it.

Gary B Enkelis4 votes

I think refining your ideas like that is called "iteration" and what LoL is built on. I dunno.

SilverSquid2 votes

You could say that. And for every version I post, there's about 10 "iterations", that I didn't post (because they don't work, don't do what I need them to or are too similar to something). That being said, I still don't quite know what you are getting at.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

I'm not getting at much. I'm just saying if you've brought up Karma reworks before then it's ok to bring up Karma reworks again because like you said

Everytime I post one, I learn more about communicating, game design, what the community wants and people keep approaching me with ideas even weeks later. I try to take it all in and improve, to present the boards with only the highest of quality posts.

I didn't need to post anything before.

I'm supportive of what you do.

Mandang01 votes

Disclaimer: I only read through the section that discussed the loss of old Karma's RQ duality. I didn't read through the kit suggestions as I think "duality" itself isn't something Riot should be pursuing.

What you call "duality" is exactly why Karma was never allowed to be strong before, and it's why she needed a rework.

How are you going to balance old Karma's RQ? Is it balanced for lane, when it only maybe hits 4 people? Is it balanced for teamfights when it actually hits 4 people? Or is it balanced around the optimal usage when it hits all 10 in a teamfight? Now ask that same question regarding optimal and suboptimal use of missing health scaling on old Q and ask it a third time regarding Karma's old missing health -> AP passive. If you balance Karma around the best case scenario, all realistic usages are going to feel underwhelming. If you balance around her laning, then the spell feels overpowered in teamfights.

Same thing for her old W, but I'm not going to hold that against her - it could always have been replaced with something else.

Regarding the whole "duality" concept in general, I think it's similar to the generalist kits that Riot's trying to move away from (which I support them for doing). I think it's great for the game to have a support like Janna who does very little offensively be contrasted with someone like Blitzcrank who does very little defensively. I think pushing "duality" onto supports is just going to increase kit similarity and select for which supports do the same things better rather than encouraging niche picks (like how Lulu and Nami aren't usually both good at any given time).

SilverSquid1 votes

I appreciate the input, but you probably should read my kit suggestion. Because it is supposed to tackle exactly the problems you mentioned. In fact this rework should make her LESS generalistic, than she is now. Additionally it explores how you can make duality a healthy mechanic.

If you think I failed, please let me know!

Catastrop1 votes

I love this! It's still Karma, with the kit I know and love currently, but better. EDIT: Really hope a Rioter sees this and take into consideration.

SilverSquid1 votes

I'd hope so, but I doubt it. They didn't appear to notice my last rework either, even though with 280 upvotes it was the best received Karma rework I have ever seen. Or maybe even one of the best (fan made) champion reworks overall.

And it was way better than this one, albeit a bit more unrealistic. So I dunno, really.

But thanks for the positivity man, it keeps me motivated!

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

. If it finds one it heals them by 10/20/35/55/80(+1/50AP)

I don't get that 1/50, unless you meant

. If it finds one it heals them by 10/20/35/55/80(+1/50AP)%

SilverSquid1 votes

Sorry, for some reason, the answer didn't post to your comment.

On lvl 5, the ability will heal for 80, increased to 320, if the target is at 1hp. If you have 400AP, it heals for 88 (80base, + 400AP/50=8), increased to 352, if the target is at 1hp.

I am not sure if I would stick with those exact values, but I hope the mechanic works (emergency healing, but not OP when healing tanks).

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

So essentially you mean 2% AP scaling

SilverSquid1 votes

Essentially yes. It's a habit I adopted from the wiki, because it gets less confusing if it is used in conjunction with % based heals. Also % are confusing to a lot of people in general.

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