The Karma Changes Are Missing the Point. Here Is why!

SilverSquid··72 votes·6,112 views

**Inspire (E) **

  • Shield value lowered to 70/100/130/160/190 from 80/110/140/170/200
  • Can no longer shield minions.
  • Mantra Bonus - Defiance (R+E) now has same movement speed as E shield (40/45/50/55/60%) instead of 60%.

That's on the PBE right now. And it's horrible. A horrible, horrible idea, Riot. Let me explain to you why. Karma's gameplay currently has two huge problems:

  • Low skill expression
  • Lack of mantra diversity

Why Is low Skill Expression a Problem?

Karma players have two ways of showing their skill; 1) the ability to hit Q and RQ reliably 2) knowing when to mantra what Anything else in her kit requires the same mechanics as any other champion. But for a weird reason her skillceiling is very close to her skillfloor. The complete opposite of good design; she is too hard for newbies and lacks too much potential for pros. Because her playstyle is not intuitive (Is she a tank, mage or support? Where do I stand, what do I build?) but lacks depth (no surprising combos or clutch abilities).

Then why was she played in LCS so much? Because she can't fail. Her strongest (and overbuffed) ability, the AoE shield, is nearly always up, can't miss and can't be countered. The ability to never fail is very valuable in pro play. However, never being able to fail and not having clutch moments (like a Thresh hook) doesn't really get spectators exited.

So it's boring to watch and is causing game health problems. I'd like to know why Riot thinks it's a good idea to take away another small thing that experienced Karma players could do; deciding to cast RE on a minion, sacrificing some single target shield to hit one or two additional champions. Something that new Karma players wouldn't know or forget about. It's not that clutch, but Karma really hasn't much else left.

Why Is lacking Mantra Diversity a Problem?

Karma's identity lies in her mantra. Her whole kit and playstyle builds on it. It's supposed to be an ability, that grants you flexibility instead of power; giving you her the greatest toolbox instead of the biggest hammer in the group. Or to quote Riot on this: We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma's abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time. However, over the years, this idea has been forgotten. Because, depending on your build, there is no real decision to make:

  • **RQ **with its bonkers damage is nearly always superior on Midlane Karma.
  • **RW **with its ridiculous CC and tankscaling is nearly always superior on Tank Karma.
  • **RE **has just the most reliable utility, so it's nearly always superior on Support Karma.

So, instead of giving Karma a versatile playstyle, she has become a one-trick-pony in three different lanes. Making her unimaginative, boring to watch and either underpowered or oppressive. And once again Riot decides to INCREASE this problem by making RE even less of an option; if you didn't level E (which midlane Karma for example doesn't do), it makes RE MORE inferior option than it already is.

What about That E Nerf?

I actually was kind of happy, when I saw it, because that was Karma's first nerf since her implementation in 2011. It felt like a moment of normalcy. I mean, nerfing a 49% winrate champion is still kind of stupid, but other champions have been hit with a more unreasonable nerfhammer. And we knew the nerf had to be coming after her performance in LCS.

It's the other two changes that are really troubling me, because it seems like Riot keeps missunderstanding Karma's issues. Again: **Depth **is what she lacks, and taking away small tricks like the one with RE is what's killing her. Yes, I doubt it's a perfectly healthy mechanic, shielding/healing minions, but at least replace it with something interesting. Some other way to show that you have mastered Karma. Mantra diversity is what she needs. A reason to have different mantra options COMPETE with each other. It was a mistake to make RE's shield value scale with E instead of mantra levels. Now doing the same for MS makes RE even less attractive and pushes Karma into repeatedly mantra-ing only the spells she levels. Oh, and can I remind you of something?

Karma constantly only mantra-ing the ability she leveled was one of the reasons you guys reworked Karma in the first place. In her rework you introduced mantra-scaling damage, shielding and utility for a reason.

Hey, Complaining Is easy! What Would YOU Do?

  • Remove the tankscaling from RW and replace it with values more appropriate for mages (flat heal, scaling with low health), to make it more of a competitor with other mantras and less oppressive on tank Karma.
  • Give her damage options other than RQ. I don't know what was wrong about having damage on RW and RE. And people LOVED the shieldbomb.
  • Remove that unneeded rootduration from her RW. It does not fit her theme, it does not benefit her kit, it's not reliable for her supporting. It's just clogging her power budget for no reason.
  • Deciding whether you want Karma to be close or long range. So either make RQ more viable at short ranges (target ground AoE?) or make W/RW less reliable/oppressive at short ranges. Not deciding where she should be confuses Karma and her enemies alike.
  • Also that passive. People really dislike it. Yes, it's probably the only thing rewarding good Karma players appropriately, but it's a thematic failure and it could just as well be an (overbuffed) ultimate passive.

The strange thing is that, whenever Meddler writes something about Karma, I completely agree with him. So I am utterly confused why the Karma changes in the last two years have been straight up missing her problems. I want to have a constructive discussion about those changes, before they go live. And I just think that it's a mistake to nerf a 49% winrate champion in a way that increases her problems.

So please, Riot, let's have a talk.

131 Comments

IxtaliKing20 votes

I've come to the conclusion that Riot just don't give a fuck about Karma, flat out. She's a mage but wasn't the mage update because she's supportive not damage focused, okay cool. She's an Enchanter who will definitely be looked at when they get around to Enchanters, oh wait... they've made adjustments to bunch of other supports and support items in the last couple patches and ignored Karma :/. Now they decide to look at Karma and instead of addressing her actual issues, they decide to double down on making her even more generic and even less useful.

I now fully understand those people who come on here and are disrespectful and abusive towards Rioters, but that's really not my style. When those changes go live I'm done, so tired of these guys.

Supreme Senpai6917 votes

49% winrate, has obvious issues.

Played in the LCS.

Gets nerfed.

:/

I wonder if we can bribe LCS players to just... not play our champions?

IS3E531E3F96439114 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zx8VXjlO,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-07-14T04:48:15.995+0000)

49% winrate, has obvious issues.

Played in the LCS.

Gets nerfed.

:/

I wonder if we can bribe LCS players to just... not play our champions?

you can always just main lee sin, he has the opposite effect, if he is NOT played in lcs he gets buffed

ZapMyHeart3 votes

{quoted}

I've come to the conclusion that Riot just don't give a fuck about Karma, flat out. She's a mage but wasn't the mage update because she's supportive not damage focused, okay cool. She's an Enchanter who will definitely be looked when they get around to Enchanters, oh wait... they've made adjustments to bunch of other supports and support items in the last couple patches and ignored Karma :/. Now they decide to look at Karma and instead of addressing her actual issues, they decide to double down on making her even more generic and even less useful.

I now fully understand those people who come on here and are disrespectful and abusive towards Rioters, but that's really not my style. When those changes go live I'm done, so tired of these guys.

Honestly, what did you expect them to do when they decided to give her kit everything, including the kitchen sink?

Personally, I blame Scarizard who gave her this mess of a kit in the first place. He didn't know what he was doing and Riot wanted her rework done quickly. It's been 4 years and they still don't know what the hell to do with her. It's rather pathetic actually.

IxtaliKing4 votes

This might sound weird but before I started playing Karma a few years ago I expected her to have quite an overloaded kit, simply because she's referred to as "The Enlightened One". But you are right the execution could have been a lot better. All I know is that Riot has butchered my favourite champs theme, diluted her kit and bandaid buffed her into FOTM status just so they can hit her with stupid nerf, I'm not happy at all.

Voluug132 votes

They buffed her up because its the laziest thing they can do, they will never admit they are wrong, which is wht happened with the Karma Rework.

Summonerrr 112 votes

This is no common QQ thread, it's a full fledged logical argument.

THAT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

Take my upvotes, take all of them*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

Abyssphere10 votes

Removing the minion shield is properly depressing. That was a really strong and fun tool to use when pushing. Shielding cannon minions when trying to bring down a tower really helps.

Value nerfs I can take but removing that gameplay function is just... really crappy. I know they've done it for other champions but Karma was the only one who could practically use it on minions.

Ionian StarChild3 votes

Yup. Exactly what you said. Karma's shield was the only spell that made proper use of the ability to be able to cast on minions. It helped with pushing towers and extending her reach to shield allies that are beyond her range. I really hope they reconsider. Also, they should just redistribute the shield strength between her normal and mantra-ed versions, giving the normal shield regular scaling like other shields in the game with mantra only adding a bit extra to it. That should make mantra-ed E be less of a pain.

The Yetii Rider10 votes

Shieldbomb isn't healthy. You just talked about reliability, and about not being able to fail.

Shieldbomb is a lot like Orianna's Command: Shockwave. It's an ability that is either insane or useless depending on the mobility of your allies. If you have a powerful initiator who can get into the middle of the enemy team instantly, then it's a godsend. If you have no mobility and are more of a peeling/split push composition, it's a pointless effect that does nothing.

You can't balance utility like that. It's not giving health to another champion or giving them more damage on autos or something, it's a nuke that can't be dodged with an instant cast time that has absolutely no counterplay if activated on a stealth champion like Rengar or Evelynn.

So no, shieldbombing is not and should not ever come back. It's ridiculous. What is the counterplay to dodging additional burst damage from an assassin with perfect initiation like Rengar? Deep warding, throwing down pinks in the bush directly next to you but far enough away that you still have time to react? No.

Now, you might argue, "Well, wait, then why is Command: Shockwave allowed to exist in its current form?"

To be honest, I'm really not sure about this one, but I think it's because Command: Shockwave created the Deliver the Ball team comp and it's a much more visual effect than Karma's Defiance, so it's just more exciting to watch. I think Orianna exists basically as a fallback for every pro player to use if they get banned out, and Riot likes that option for them so they don't nerf her too much.

Anyway, one ability being stupid and low counterplay and balanced entirely around your team composition does not mean we should allow more to exist.

If Renewal still dealt bonus damage it would encourage burst/midlane Karma. Karma is a support, she lost her damage in both her other skills to cement her as a support. She has her Soulflare for lane phase and to participate in siege compositions, but her Defiance is her trademark spell. She's a support.

Your point about depth is pretty spot on. Unfortunately, something like that, and I need you to read this line carefully, cannot be handled by the Live Balance team. The Live Balance team adjusts numbers. New functionalities A) usually involve new particles or animations, and thus require coordination with the Art team and additional bug-testing to search for new visual bugs, which takes more time to develop, and B) are handled by the Gameplay Update team, not Live Balance.

The Gameplay Update team has a backstock. They need to rework, in no particular order, Yorick, Warwick, Evelynn, Irelia, Urgot, and Galio, according to one Rioter who posted that list of the next year's reworks some two weeks ago. They also need to handle the diving fighters, assassin, and enchanter support roster updates. Live Balance cannot create new abilities or functionalities, and Gameplay Update has higher priorities

Karma is not going to get any depth added to her for at least two years. Sorry.

SociopathFriend1 votes

2 years/ whenever that Enchanter Update comes out- or did Riot specifically say the Enchanter update wasn't coming out until after the others?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

2 years/ whenever that Enchanter Update comes out- or did Riot specifically say the Enchanter update wasn't coming out until after the others?

Depends. We may not even get an enchanter update if Riot decides that 6.13/6.14 changes were good enough.

Karma has also been identified by Riot as an artillery Mage/enchanter. If they decide they would rather support the artillery Mage aspect (which they might, since right now they only have 3 AP artilleries), then she won't be touched in the enchanter update and will likely be part of the artillery changes (I expect mostly some light tweaking with itemization changes, so no new abilities for Karma. Probably just a nerf to her utility and a buff to her range).

IxtaliKing6 votes

Depends. We may not even get an enchanter update if Riot decides that 6.13/6.14 changes were good enough.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of and a part of me thinks this is the case.

Karma has also been identified by Riot as an artillery Mage/enchanter.

They actually said she's an Enchanter Battle Mage, I believe it was Statikk who said he thought Artillery/Enchanter is a unique space he could see for Karma, but it was shut down by everyone who responded at the time.

SilverSquid5 votes

I believe it was Statikk who said he thought Artillery/Enchanter is a unique space he could see for Karma

It was him, yeah.

I also doubt Enchanter Updates are coming any time soon. The official list includes:

  • Janna (good spot)
  • Nami
  • Sona (just updated)
  • Soraka (recently updated)
  • Lulu (just updated)
  • Bard (recently released)
  • Zilean (recently updated)
  • Karma
  • Taric (just reworked)

They won't be doing it for Nami & Karma anytime soon. I feel seriously mucked at this point

"We are gonna give more identity to immobile mages this year" "So what about Karma?" "She has too much mobility!" "So why are you doing Kennen and Ziggs then?" "I mean, we are not going to do support mages. They gonna get changed with Enchanters!"

6 months later

"So, about dem enchanters..." "We have a reworked Taric, updated Sona, Soraka and Lulu!" "Yeah, but what about Karma?" "Right. She has seen some play. Unleash the nerfhammer!" "Didn't you say...." "Nerf. Hammer."

Riot, if you are reading this, I still love you, but cm'on....

IxtaliKing3 votes

Exactly! There's not going to be an Enchanter update and it feels like the changes they made in the last couple patches were to make sure of that. As for that Ionian lore event... wouldn't be surprised if they put that off for a few years just because we've seen Ionia in Jhin and Taliyah's lores already :/.

It just looks like they don't WANT to work on Karma, she's not popular enough for them waste resources on her. I'm sorry but everything they've done just lends itself to that belief, actions speak louder than words.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly! There's not going to be an Enchanter update and it feels like the changes they made in the last couple patches were to make sure of that. As for that Ionian lore event... wouldn't be surprised if they put that off for a few years just because we've seen Ionia in Jhin and Taliyah's lores already :/.

It just looks like they don't WANT to work on Karma, she's not popular enough for them waste resources on her. I'm sorry but everything they've done just lends itself to that belief, actions speak louder than words.

The Riot design team aren't even sure what specific label to define her main role, so it's not like they even know where to start with her anyways. They stumbled with answers on pretty much anything to do with Karma, which indicates that no one on that design team even plays her, therefore, no one knows her issues.

-If they want her to be an Artillary Mage, then her kit needs to be long ranged completely instead of slapping it on Q and calling it a day. -If they want her to be an Enchanter, then her kit needs to have a ton of (powerful) utility that can compete with other supports, which means a kit overhaul and not this pansy number tweak. -If they want her to be a Battle Mage, then her kit needs to be primarily mage/secondary support.

The issue with Riot is that they are too proud to ask the community for actual Karma feedback regarding their champion. They would rather continue stumbling, backtracking, act ignorant, and so on than do that. Because if they did, that would mean admitting they made huge mistakes the first time. When the forum shitstorm happened regarding the Karma rework, many Karma players blasted Riot for basically making a substandard rework (that still holds true today). Riot (Scarizard/Morello) did try to make a thread asking for feedback, but realized they messed up and ignored it in the end. The couple hundred pages thread is buried somewhere in the archives today.

IxtaliKing2 votes

You're absolutely right. I wouldn't even mind if they made her an Artillery Mage/Enchanter if they could actually make it make sense and execute it well. But as an Artillery Mage she would require even more range, I think 950 units (her Q) is still considered mid range.

SilverSquid2 votes

The issue with Riot is that they are too proud to ask the community for actual Karma feedback regarding their champion

I usually don't do this, but this is Statikk, about a month ago:

I'd be interested in what you guys think would be the most fun and distinct direction to take Karma.

Well, after doing that bellyflop of an answer where he said "it really is fun to just lob R+Qs at the enemy team." hinting that this is what he likes her identity to be.

ZapMyHeart5 votes

{quoted}

I usually don't do this, but this is Statikk, about a month ago:

Well, after doing that bellyflop of an answer where he said "it really is fun to just lob R+Qs at the enemy team." hinting that this is what he likes her identity to be.

Well, it is the same non-descript, "Oh, we care" approach to try to calm the community, but the result is that they end up dismissing the feedback and go with what they originally want anyways. It was the same 4 years ago and it's the same now.

It's fun for Statikk because he only played her once or twice. You know what is actually fun? Giving her 5 Mantra charges to lob RQ a ton of times consecutively. But oh wait, that would be broken. Personally, I don't find it fun lobbing RQ because it's a shitty skill that leaves the player a bad taste. If you miss it or hit a minion, you basically whiffed your ult. If you make it, it still leaves a bad taste because unless they were CC'ed prior, they are going to walk out of it. From a mage perspective, that makes you useless because your burst is unpredictable. From a support perspective, your ult is not a game-changer and rather useless. There is just too many restrictions on RQ to make it actually fun.

SilverSquid4 votes

Hey, I just met you. And this is crazy. But this is our first conversation. And I already like you, maybe.

Champion Skin4 votes

Shieldbomb is a lot like Orianna's Command: Shockwave. It's an ability that is either insane or useless depending on the mobility of your allies. If you have a powerful initiator who can get into the middle of the enemy team instantly, then it's a godsend. If you have no mobility and are more of a peeling/split push composition, it's a pointless effect that does nothing.

Shieldbomb on an ally which can jump into the enemy team is reliable damage yes... BUT it also means you will likely not hit more than 1 ally with the shield effect wasting most of the shield/utility effect I don't see giving Karma the option of trading utility/defense for more damage as particularly unhealthy

And can't/is very difficult to avoid it means that it is unhealthy? Does that mean that auto attacks and all targeted abilities are unhealthy?

IxtaliKing3 votes

If Renewal still dealt bonus damage it would encourage burst/midlane Karma. Karma is a support, she lost her damage in both her other skills to cement her as a support. She has her Soulflare for lane phase and to participate in siege compositions, but her Defiance is her trademark spell. She's a support.

She's a mage primary, she was reworked with solo laning in mind. She's had a lot of her solo lane tools taken from her that's why she's played bot more, she's about as much of a support as Orianna or Lux.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

She's a mage primary, she was reworked with solo laning in mind. She's had a lot of her solo lane tools taken from her that's why she's played bot more, she's about as much of a support as Orianna or Lux.

Yeah, she's no longer a Mage now. She was reworked as a Mage, that was a problem, so they removed her damage and made her a support.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Basically, and that's compounded the problem. She's never been problematic as a mage, she just wasn't popular.

SilverSquid9 votes

(Shieldbomb is) a nuke that can't be dodged with an instant cast time that has absolutely no counterplay if activated on a stealth champion like Rengar or Evelynn.

Shieldbomb required an ally to aim, didn't do much more damage than her regular Q, needed you to be in cast range, had the warning signal of R, consumed the mantra, all of Karma's self-mobility and if only used for offensive matters would leave you completely without any team protection abilities. So, it couldn't be "countered" in a sense that it could be avoided, but if used unwisely it could be retaliated. And it needed a clever setup.

"Well, wait, then why is Command: Shockwave allowed to exist in its current form?"

It has a delay, it has visuals indicating where it might start, it does not take away your defensive options, it is way stronger because it is hard CC, sets up your whole combo and team.

But hey, if you disliked that Karma's RE was too instant, why not add a travel time? Similarly to Riven's R, this could in fact be used to balance it. You know, I do understand those arguments, but Riot never used them. They didn't remove shieldbomb because of low counterplay or whatever. They removed it in order to buff the passive. And this is what pisses me off.

If Renewal still dealt bonus damage it would encourage burst/midlane Karma. Karma is a support,

There are no words to describe how utterly stupid that sentence is. I really don't want to insult you here, but.... honestly? Karma has been designed to be a mage support along with Lux, Morgana, Orianna and Zilean. She is perceived as mainly a battlemage/enchanter by Riot. Ever since her creation she has been played in sololanes successfully and Riot knows it.

She has her Soulflare for lane phase and to participate in siege compositions, but her Defiance is her trademark spell.

Defiance? Oh, you mean the spell that has a name that doesn't even make sense anymore, now that the damage is gone? The spell that was once her most unique damagespell, that she had for 4 years? That was removed to buff a passive nobody likes? That's her trademark spell? Who would've guessed?

Sorry again, this is not supposed to be directed against you. I've just become a bit cynical.

Your point about depth is pretty spot on. Unfortunately, something like that, and I need you to read this line carefully, cannot be handled by the Live Balance team.

You could've stopped there. I know and I fully agree. I also frequently have to defend ricklessabandon (even though I hate it), because he couldn't do much with Karma. He was not allowed to add effects or change the visuals. However, I DO blame him for not understanding her theme and carelessly removing identity from her. It's not that I expected something better from them, I just didn't expect something that bad.

Karma is not going to get any depth added to her for at least two years. Sorry.

Yeah, I keep saying that too, just in a little different way. There are more champions in a more dire need of a rework, and the Enchanter Update/Ionian Event is probably not going to come anytime soon. However, if Karma, in the meantime, is going to get treated that way, making her worse and worse, instead of keeping her fresh and balanced, I will complain and I will do it until my arguments get refuted or Riot adresses the issues.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

Shieldbomb required an ally to aim, didn't do much more damage than her regular Q, needed you to be in cast range, had the warning signal of R, consumed the mantra, all of Karma's self-mobility and if only used for offensive matters would leave you completely without any team protection abilities. So, it couldn't be "countered" in a sense that it could be avoided, but if used unwisely it could be retaliated. And it needed a clever setup.

Retaliation, or punishment for someone expending their defense in an offensive way, requires team coordination. If this argument were valid, then midlane Soraka, Sona and Lulu would not have been problems that needed addressing (Lulu in particular, since she freely expends her Polymorph to give herself move speed and still never dies).

Karma may be easier to kill after she's used her Shieldbomb, but if she's dealt a large amount of damage to the enemy team in the process, does it really matter if she dies? 1 for 4 is still worth, everyone will tell you that.

The warning signal of R does not apply if Karma casts the spell in a bush, or outside of the enemy team's vision, which she can easily do when flanking with a Rengar or a Malphite. The issue is not the cast, it's that the delivery of the cast (IE, the projectile) is entirely ally champion specific and not tied to Karma or her kit at all.

And yes, unavoidable damage is a problem. That's why the entire assassin class is getting an update. There should always be something an individual player can do to outplay another and avoid at least some of their damage.

But hey, if you disliked that Karma's RE was too instant, why not add a travel time? Similarly to Riven's R, this could in fact be used to balance it. You know, I do understand those arguments, but Riot never used them. They didn't remove shieldbomb because of low counterplay or whatever. They removed it in order to buff the passive. And this is what pisses me off.

You can't add a travel time to a shield. Even Lux's Prismatic Barrier instantly shields her on cast. Defensive abilities are used in a reactionary way, they need to respond on-demand. Giving the shield a bit of damage in exchange for removing its reliability as a defensive tool punishes support Karma horribly.

There are no words to describe how utterly stupid that sentence is. I really don't want to insult you here, but.... honestly? Karma has been designed to be a mage support along with Lux, Morgana, Orianna and Zilean. She is perceived as mainly a battlemage/enchanter by Riot. Ever since her creation she has been played in sololanes successfully and Riot knows it.

I don't deal in designs, I deal in immediate realities. Blitzcrank was designed to be a top laner. No one thinks of him as a top laner. He isn't balanced as a top laner. Nidalee used to be a primary mid laner, now she's getting nerfs specifically targeted at her jungling. Mordekaiser was a solo laner, then he got changed and now he's balanced around his passive that makes him a bot laner.

But sure, let's take this from your perspective. Karma was designed as a duality champion who gains AP as she loses health and has an offensive and defensive cast of all of her abilities. Oh, wait, that is completely irrelevant to her currently because it was removed. So her identity as a mage is also completely irrelevant to her because it was removed.

Cassieopiea used to be a primary DoT mage, now she's a marksman DPS mage. Champions can be completely changed by reworks, that's how it goes.

It doesn't matter if Riot says she's a mage, her kit doesn't reflect that. It may reflect the identity they want to have for her (just like how they say Diana is a diving fighter they would like to define at some point, but her current kit is much more assassin-y) but it doesn't affect her now. She's a support who sees play in mid, just like Lulu.

Defiance? Oh, you mean the spell that has a name that doesn't even make sense anymore, now that the damage is gone? The spell that was once her most unique damagespell, that she had for 4 years? That was removed to buff a passive nobody likes? That's her trademark spell? Who would've guessed?

Anyone who's been paying attention. Her Q is a boring skill shot damage and slow, who cares. Her ultimate is, as many Karma fans have stated, as prone to missing the mark of choice as Kha'Zix's Evolve. There will always be a 'correct' Mantra based on the numbers and tuning, there's no real choice involved with that skill. And her W is so weak compared to other tether effects that I almost never see it actually snare anyone. At least LeBlanc can easily follow her target.

There are more champions in a more dire need of a rework, and the Enchanter Update/Ionian Event is probably not going to come anytime soon. However, if Karma, in the meantime, is going to get treated that way, making her worse and worse, instead of keeping her fresh and balanced, I will complain and I will do it until my arguments get refuted or Riot adresses the issues.

Riot told us that 6.15-6.18 would be primarily focused on pro play balancing. Karma sees a lot of play in the LCS and her speed boost is too effective when she maxes Q first.

SilverSquid6 votes

If this argument were valid, then midlane Soraka, Sona and Lulu would not have been problems that needed addressing

Lulu's waveclear was to effective. And she was stepping on toes of too many champion spaces. If you mean midlane Soraka before the rework; her Q was just stupid. If you don't mean that, I don't know what you are talking about. I don't remember someone especiallly adressing Sona mid. She sucks there anyways, because she has no waveclear at all.

Karma may be easier to kill after she's used her Shieldbomb, but if she's dealt a large amount of damage to the enemy team in the process, does it really matter if she dies?

If you think 300+60% AP are large amounts of damage for a semi ultimate, then yeah.

The warning signal of R does not apply if Karma casts the spell in a bush, or outside of the enemy team's vision

This argument applies to a lot of other abilities then.

And yes, unavoidable damage is a problem. That's why the entire assassin class is getting an update.

Because assasins 100-0ing you in 0.2 from stealth is the same problem as a mage dealing 300+60% AP with their semi ultimate.

You can't add a travel time to a shield.

Add it to the damage nova. It changes nothing about your reactions regarding the initial target. And if you say, then you don't shield everyone immediately; neither does Lux.

Blitzcrank was designed to be a top laner. No one thinks of him as a top laner. He isn't balanced as a top laner. Nidalee used to be a primary mid laner, now she's getting nerfs specifically targeted at her jungling. Mordekaiser was a solo laner, then he got changed and now he's balanced around his passive that makes him a bot laner.

Blitzcrank is from a time where there wasn't a meta yet and he still works toplane. Nidalee didn't change her overall identity, just her lane. Mordekaiser was a failed experiment. And Cass is generally still the same.

Karma was designed as a duality champion who gains AP as she loses health and has an offensive and defensive cast of all of her abilities. Oh, wait, that is completely irrelevant to her currently because it was removed.

No, this is exactly what I was talking about. Just as the Mordekaiser community doesn't take too kindly the hit to his identity, neither does the Karma community appreciate the utter murdering of hers.

It doesn't matter if Riot says she's a mage, her kit doesn't reflect that.

Ever since the 5.10 changes which I keep pointing out over and over again. I DO point out that their inital thoughts and claims TO THIS DAY do not go along with their changes in 5.10 and ever since. I highlight their own internal inconsistency. Apparantly there are no clear design standards for her, or the life balance team doesn't know about them.

Anyone who's been paying attention. Her Q is a boring skill shot damage and slow, who cares. Her ultimate is, as many Karma fans have stated, as prone to missing the mark of choice as Kha'Zix's Evolve. There will always be a 'correct' Mantra based on the numbers and tuning, there's no real choice involved with that skill.

So you agree, that Riot fcked that up in 5.10? Becaues up to that point she barely had this problem.

Riot told us that 6.15-6.18 would be primarily focused on pro play balancing. Karma sees a lot of play in the LCS and her speed boost is too effective when she maxes Q first.

And I provided solutions for this. Over and over again. But now that Talisman is back, she will probably not be played anymore, no matter if she has the speedboost or not. But for what it's worth, at least her decision making has been made worse again. GJ Riot, gj.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

No, this is exactly what I was talking about. Just as the Mordekaiser community doesn't take too kindly the hit to his identity, neither does the Karma community appreciate the utter murdering of hers.

Ever since the 5.10 changes which I keep pointing out over and over again. I DO point out that their inital thoughts and claims TO THIS DAY do not go along with their changes in 5.10 and ever since. I highlight their own internal inconsistency. Apparantly there are no clear design standards for her, or the life balance team doesn't know about them.

So you agree, that Riot fcked that up in 5.10? Becaues up to that point she barely had this problem.

5.10 was over a year ago. If Riot intended to fix this situation they would have done it by now. They prefer her as a primary support, clearly.

This is Karma's new identity now, so I suggest you get used to it. These new changes emphasize that. There's a 'correct' way to play Karma and it's bot lane, maxing shield first.

SilverSquid4 votes

Riot doesn't say "someone IS a support". You could even tell that their idea of champions is more diverse than that by the recently released subclass list. However, they acknowledge what champions get played as. And as you could tell by the last few releases, they embrace when champions get played in multiple roles. Besides, the things I pointed out aren't necessarily a problem for midlane only.

And if Riot wants to kill a certain lane strategy (i.e. Karma mid), they at least should have a reason to. Which there is NOT.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Yes. Riot Alistar has a history Janna of embracing Lulu support champions Soraka being played in Sona multiple roles TahmKench .

The problem, as I stated, isn't that Karma is being played mid. The problem is that Karma in competitive has too much power in her Defiance when she maxes it second. With this change, pro players will be forced to either get lots of damage or high AOE speed boosts on Karma.

SilverSquid5 votes

Alistar, Janna and Lulu didn't have healthy laning phases and made it either boring or oppressive for other laners. I don't know what Soraka you are talking about and I still don't know anyone effectively playing Sona in a sololane and Riot officially adressing the issue. As of Tahm, he still is supposed to be a support and toplaner?

Yes, because they buffed RE for no reason and forgot that they need to make all mantra abilities scale evenly. They didn't have this problem when the RE shield value would be dependent on mantra ranks. They didn't have this problem when RW and RE had damage that forced them to compete with RQ. Back then her decision making was based on the situation, not the buildpath or lane. Back then deciding for the right ability to mantra actually felt rewarding.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

You weren't around in Season 3 or 4 when mid raka was very meta? Waveclear all day every day with no aiming required, self-heal and give yourself plenty of armor to avoid ganks, and a targeted silence that cost no mana. Mid Raka was a toxic nightmare.

Mid Sona was again, a thing when she had armor and MR on her auras. She was extremely difficult to kill and could regularly heal herself with no problems because her heal mana costs were much lower. This was also back when Eleisa's Miracle was in the game, and that solved a lot of Sona's issues perfectly if she rushed it.

Tahm Kench just got a change that made him have weaker sustain which makes him a far more ineffective top laner. It's pretty significant. Being able to heal off only 70% of damage taken instead of 100% is huge in a lane that's focused on trading and sustaining to keep your TP up and never back for as long as possible.

SilverSquid3 votes

No, I was just asking WHAT Soraka you meant. Pre-rework Soraka then. And yes I was around and yes it completely fits with the "boring/oppressive lane" theme, that is impossible to adress without also changing her main-lane. So of course they rather remove the midlane option and keep a healthy support alive. EDIT: Well, I just called Soraka healthy. Let's say, as healthy as a healing champion could possibly be?

I didn't follow the old forums. Did Riot ever mention anything about Sona back then?

They adressed his invincibility and gave him damage from lvl1 instead of lvl6. Besides, his grey health -> heal conversion got upped and the CD got reduced from 16 -> 6s, increasing the uptime of the grey health passive. And I can't remember reading anywhere that Riot doesn't want Tahm to be in toplane.

Julanus5 votes

Bring back the ally-targeted tether. Edit: Let me rephrase, allow the current tether to target a teammate. /edit

Ally W can provide a minor Tenacity buff and/or cleanse after the 2 seconds. Ally Mantra W can provide the heal to her ally instead.

Also, I would be very disappointed if they removed the minion shielding.

SilverSquid4 votes

She needs something. Something that keeps her apart, other than overbuffed values. Some depth, some identity. I don't know what the design arguments against ally-tether and shieldbombs are. After one year on these boards, I still don't know.

BottleCapster2 votes

The argument against shieldbombing is counterplay, and ally-tether just doesn't really get talked about much.

Most of the talk surrounding Karma comes from people bitching that she isn't how she was on release, and people trying to fix her (Which let's be honest she needs as you've pointed out).

Personally I'm with you that Karma lacks depth. She's very middle of the line on a lot of things, and Ironically enough Riot is nerfing the one aspect that they were trying to make "stand out" about her in the first place. I love Karma, past and present, but she's not a very unique character outside of Defiance, and even that's just a bundled up marriage of Talisman of Ascension and Locket.

IxtaliKing2 votes

The argument against shieldbombing is counterplay, and ally-tether just doesn't really get talked about much.

Where has this counter play argument come from though, has a Rioter said that?

Julanus1 votes

Plenty of times, I believe the first instance was back during her.. "relaunch" (so.. 3 years ago in March).

Basically, having a super-powerful shield (which was all the non-Mantra'd version was originally, a plain old shield with no frills or extra effects) combined with a super-powerful blast of AoE damage makes for a difficult time to play against.

Funny enough, this was also something Riot had talked about being unhealthy on Sion for his rework. Guess they figured it was okay on a tank, though.

Anyway, I do agree it was a bit overkill, and it needed some tuning. I'd say lowering the damage the Mantra Shield provided in favor of emphasis on the shield portion would've helped immensely. Heck, I actually like the "apply a shield to anyone in the area" aspect that was introduced, and would rather have had an AoE shield with target-specific burst damage over the movement speed increase.

However, this current Karma has been stripped of nearly every aspect the original Karma had.

Riot doesn't seem to know what they want to do with Karma, other than wipe any and every aspect associated with her original incarnation from existence. The only things that seem to remain are... well... I guess she still has a Mantra?

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

the shield bomb was removed in part cus of the oppressive synergy with her passive, when shield bomb does damage it procs her passive, when you shield bomb and hit the whole team it comes real close to completely resetting your mantra so you can shield bomb again. being able to double shield bomb has alot of issues, now you have to consider how you balance her shield values cus you need to entertain that they will be double as well has she can double nuke a team with that aoe. this might have been a way to preserve the idea of 2 mantras (cus even tho everyone wants to ignore it the rework preserved alot about old karma) but that was found to be to powerful.

the idea that karma doesn't have any clutch move or clutch plays to make seems tunneled around the idea of a single move creating a high point and its true karma doesn't do that but that's cus shes more about a prolonged fight where you kit around shielding off damage, etc. inside of a short exchange or in an all out teamfight in the mid lane karmas presence isn't noticed the same way as when you are kiting people out or repositioning for something.

this idea that her q is to long range for the rest of her kit. the range of her q has never felt like the focus of her kit to me, its always seemed like it was that long so you can make use of it. its true her q range is a little longer then most other short range spells (karma q is 950 same as veigar q, ryze q is 900 and ahri q sits at 880) but i rarely feel like my range is keeping me safely out of range of danger or that i can snipe someone out with qs. either i whittle someone down with consistent hits or i catch someone with a slow so i can get in range. if you are planning on cutting more then 25 range i wouldn't be surprised if people started getting away from you alot more.

w healing for % missing hp is again to preserve the surprise healing of old karma where she can still burst back a big chunk of hp but not in a way where it will save her so consistently. i would be interesting in seeing some mix of % missing and flat healing but i have a fear that it will make her feel really oppressive where she can shield off most of your damage and then heal to full on flat healing. (alternatively something where the first heal is flat and the second heal is % might be interesting)

i like these nerfs to her shield they are a nice little love tap without really hurting any of her patterns. it hurts a solo lane karma that is maxing shield last and it takes some of the wind out of early rush downs with RE but a support karma tends to put no more the 3 points q before maxing shield so they arent going to feel it to much. i cant say i've ever REd a minion in my time playing karma, i can see where you could but that feels like such a waste of what could be a easily be a 500+ hp shield on a carry cut to 250 cus you weren't close enough to your team.

i'm just gona bullet off some last points to keep this from getting much longer.

  • all the mantras are useful in different ways no one mantra is superior in any one variant

  • it is true that some variants are given more opportunities to use some mantras, that's kind of the point right?

  • RW is good on ap variants just as much as tank variants and the root duration makes it useful for support as well

  • when they removed the damage boost from RW they upped the ratio so you really only lost maybe 60% of the boosted damage (imo well worth the trade for an over 3 second root)

  • RE has a massive ratio on it and is just as viable a mantra option on mid lane karma as RQ even without RE having damage on it

IxtaliKing3 votes

the shield bomb was removed in part cus of the oppressive synergy with her passive, when shield bomb does damage it procs her passive, when you shield bomb and hit the whole team it comes real close to completely resetting your mantra so you can shield bomb again.

No, they took away the shield bomb to BUFF her passive, making her most basic poke playstyle more potent. The numbers on her passive were lower which meant landing a 5 man shield bomb wouldn't be as crazy as landing a 5 man RQ now, to get a double shield bomb back then you still needed land all your spells on multiple targets and use autos.

The only thing these 5.10 changes were successful at was making her more accessible, but at the expense of her Mantra diversity and her identity.

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

{quoted}

No, they took away the shield bomb to BUFF her passive, making her most basic poke playstyle more potent. The numbers on her passive were lower which meant landing a 5 man shield bomb wouldn't be as crazy as landing a 5 man RQ now, to get a double shield bomb back then you still needed land all your spells on multiple targets and use autos.

The only thing these 5.10 changes were successful at was making her more accessible, but at the expense of her Mantra diversity and her identity.

at the time mantra was reduced by 2 seconds per spell hit at all levels so hitting a 5 man spell would reduce it by 10 seconds. shield was a 10 seconds cd at all levels and lasted 4 seconds. at 40% cdr shield cd was about 6 seconds and mantra cd ranges from 18 to 14 seconds (again with 40% cdr) so at level 16 you are waiting 2 seconds for shield cd between shield bombs if you hit a 5 man.

the passive buff was to compensate for removing this combo, not the other way around.

SilverSquid4 votes

Mantra's CD: 45-36. With 40%CDr that's still at least 21.6s. I don't know where you get that 18-14 from.

the passive buff was to compensate for removing this combo, not the other way around.

"she hasn't really been stand-out in any category for some time and hasn't been able to scale well as the game progresses (...) while also giving her that lategame scaling potential (a ramped up cooldown refund on Gathering Fire (...) Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction"

Obviously they wanted to buff her scaling. But buffing her scaling on her passive is impossible without removing RE damage, as they explained. So what cause what seems clear to me.

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

{quoted}

Mantra's CD: 45-36. With 40%CDr that's still at least 21.6s. I don't know where you get that 18-14 from.

"she hasn't really been stand-out in any category for some time and hasn't been able to scale well as the game progresses (...) while also giving her that lategame scaling potential (a ramped up cooldown refund on Gathering Fire (...) Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction"

Obviously they wanted to buff her scaling. But buffing her scaling on her passive is impossible without removing RE damage, as they explained. So what cause what seems clear to me.

oh you are right. i didn't math out the cdr right. so it was 9 seconds between bombs assuming you dont hit anything else, but if you also root w and q someone you are down to 2 or 3 seconds again.

SilverSquid4 votes

Yes, assuming the perfect situation of you hitting 5 people with shieldbomb, you are down to 11.6seconds. If you then get off a full W or a Q and 4 autos, you would have mantra nearly instantly with your E. But then again, this is already assuming a lot of things, like hitting 5 enemies in the first place, having the right build, being lvl 16+, being in range for W and/or autos.... assuming an even more perfect scenario with multiple allies in that area is really pushing it.

Yes, it was possibly strong back then, but the amount of setup it needed to be broken left it balanced, imo. And it wasn't even that much damage. And less shielding than today.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

I've talked at length about the shieldbomb (giving one expression of mantra that does damage makes it more clear which mantra you should use for which purpose), but I do agree with you on other points. I hate(d) that you could shield minions (accidentally shielding a minion as support Karma is pretty feelsbadman) but Mantra diversity has been a huge problem since Karma's release (though on release it was RE that was being abused, for the sick QRE oneshot+shield combo).

I think that changing the scaling on W and removing the root might open up for other points of power in Karma's kit. I think that they should backload the W healing - increase the overall healing but give less healing for initial W and more for root. This rewards Karma for keeping a target in her root.

I also think they should sort of come back to original Karma - she was originally played as a mid/short range character, and I feel like they tried to do that but her kit has caused problems. Mostly her new Q being so long range and being on a very short CD has morphed her playstyle away from this bruiser/mage/support combo and into a weird sort of poke/"enchantress" style support or midlaner. She's team reliant unless you manage to land a W root into Mantra Q, in which case you do a ton of damage... or you could just sit back and poke with Q for 20 minutes until you have farm and destroy teamfights. I just feel like Karma's kit doesn't incentivize coming into range of her W enough for it to be an incredibly useful spell, especially with the range of her Q.

So basically I think that in some respects the changes are good (shielding minions is bad mmkay, there's a reason Soraka can't heal them anymore), but I wish they'd address the fact that Karma is a mid/short range mage with a long range mage's Q on her kit. Maybe if Q lost some range and the longer root on W was removed some more power could be funneled back into her other abilities, making her a little more interesting to play. She definitely feels incredibly binary, especially in a solo lane - you really outstat people more than outplaying them 90% of the time, and the outplays are obvious to Karma and can feel pretty bad for the opposing laner...

SilverSquid3 votes

I've talked at length about the shieldbomb (giving one expression of mantra that does damage makes it more clear which mantra you should use for which purpose)

That's not necessarily a good thing. Before 5.10 it was RQ -> Long range, poke and gamble for highest/lowest damage RW -> trade with one target (that can possibly dodge) RE -> Safest AoE application for teamfights, best waveclear tool (if you can get close)

After 5.10 it was RQ -> Here's the damage.

Yes, it's more clear, but the flexibility is gone, the depth is gone, the competition for different mantras for midlane karma is gone. If you want to carry you will find yourself using RQ again and again and again. And very often, if you use RW to safe yourself, you just find someone going even more ham for you, because they know they won't have to expect a lot of damage from you anymore. And RE is useless in lane anyways. Even more so now, that the speedboost is gone.

I hate(d) that you could shield minions (accidentally shielding a minion as support Karma is pretty feelsbadman)

Have you ever considered turning it off in the options?

increase the overall healing but give less healing for initial W and more for root.

After the 5.10 changes, RW has become the "emergency" button. Sure, I'd love some changes to W and RW, because they are just so incredibly messy, but taking away the initial heal is just gonna make it even worse as an option, favouring RQ for midlane Karma even more (you very often either don't survive to get the second part, or have to disengage.... or people dash away and you wasted your mantra).

I also think they should sort of come back to original Karma - she was originally played as a mid/short range character

There lies untapped potential in that, I agree.

shielding minions is bad mmkay, there's a reason Soraka can't heal them anymore

Probably. But as I mentioned, taking away even more skill expression from Karma is a bad idea. Even more depth gone from her. If they would replace it with something unique to her passive, I probably would be okay with it. But enhancing her problems to force her out of LCS is utterly stupid. She has a 49% winrate and most likely won't get played due to Sona/Leona/Talisman changes.

but I wish they'd address the fact that Karma is a mid/short range mage with a long range mage's Q on her kit. Maybe if Q lost some range and the longer root on W was removed some more power could be funneled back into her other abilities, making her a little more interesting to play. She definitely feels incredibly binary, especially in a solo lane - you really outstat people more than outplaying them 90% of the time, and the outplays are obvious to Karma and can feel pretty bad for the opposing laner...

I fully agree. I just wanted to highlight that. I don't like sounding all agressive on the few points we disagree with, when in general we actually agree a lot.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

That's not necessarily a good thing. Before 5.10 it was RQ -> Long range, poke and gamble for highest/lowest damage RW -> trade with one target (that can possibly dodge) RE -> Safest AoE application for teamfights, best waveclear tool (if you can get close)

After 5.10 it was RQ -> Here's the damage.

Yes, it's more clear, but the flexibility is gone, the depth is gone, the competition for different mantras for midlane karma is gone. If >you want to carry you will find yourself using RQ again and again and again. And very often, if you use RW to safe yourself, you just find >someone going even more ham for you, because they know they won't have to expect a lot of damage from you anymore. And RE is >useless in lane anyways. Even more so now, that the speedboost is gone.

I kinda agree but RE just creates the problem of "why even mantra Q if I can Mantra E to deal damage AND shield my whole team?" It similarly dilutes diversity while seeming to create more because it creates instances where Mantra Q SEEMS like the right choice, but at the end of the day 90% of the time RE would be better for the shield for your team. So while I don't enjoy the aspect of removing damage/options from Karma's kit, I definitely agree with the change - I just think they needed to add another compelling reason to Mantra E, instead of just removing one and calling it a day. I don't think shieldbomb is the correct choice for that slot, but I do think that the Mantra E is one of the weirdest points of her kit where it is simultaneously the most used (at least for support) and feels like one of the least impactful in a lot of situations - either because only a couple of champs utilized the shield/speedboost or because another ability would've been more useful, but there's no way of knowing until after the fact. Giving her Mantra E something else (some unique form of utility perhaps?) might help it feel more impactful without just flat buffing her numbers, which could be bad for the pro scene.

After the 5.10 changes, RW has become the "emergency" button. Sure, I'd love some changes to W and RW, because they are >just so incredibly messy, but taking away the initial heal is just gonna make it even worse as an option, favouring RQ for midlane >Karma even more (you very often either don't survive to get the second part, or have to disengage.... or people dash away and >you wasted your mantra).

I don't think the initial heal should go away - I think that it should be (for example) 10% on first tick with 20% for the second. Give me some HP back initially and more back later, but incentivize actually landing the root. This could be enhanced in usefulness with a Q that actually feels like it belongs on Karma (I miss the wave of fans, shoot me), but it would have to be coupled with other changes to her kit, definitely. Just more of a "damn, it would really help if this spell had more clear points of strength and weakness" - currently Karma doesn't really care if you cancel or outrange her Mantra W because she still got half the healing, but incentivize it more and it can be a stronger heal overall since it's not all upfront, and give more counterplay while maintaining or enhancing her ability to trick opponents into overextending (which I feel is now her most successful method of engaging with the enemy). I'd really like to see some sort of synergy between her abilities, but W feels pretty lackluster so I think it could be a good place to add some high points for Karma.

I'm not gonna quote the thing about shielding minions but it's really simple: There was a point in the game directly after Soraka's rework where she was picked a lot and LCS teams were utilizing healing minions to take towers faster with less minions than the enemy team, giving them an advantage all game. It's not something that gets utilized often in a solo queue game but it can be incredibly damaging to pro play/LCS, when those sorts of advantages can easily spell doom for the enemy team (and there's very little counterplay, especially in a lane-swap scenario or if you get out-rotated). So while I kinda agree that it was skill expression, if kinda unhealthy, I completely understand and support their removal of it. Ryze ultimate is unique, but in lieu of it I can walk to the teamfight - Janna will never be able to shield a minion though.

I think we do agree a lot, and I think having a few disagreements here or there is completely normal. Everyone's viewpoint of a champion will be slightly different, and their perspective will be different, but overall I do agree that Karma has lost a lot of her high points in the game. Really it seems the biggest disagreement I have with people is my thoughts on the shieldbomb, but it's not like I feel Karma doesn't need more in her kit - I just think shieldbomb would be the "easy way out", and it introduces its own host of problems while not really addressing the thematic disconnects in her current kit.

SilverSquid3 votes

"why even mantra Q if I can Mantra E to deal damage AND shield my whole team?"

Because it can do so at long range, when no ally is in position, because it leaves your E for yourself to speed away at a time you need it and because it can double proc and possible deal more damage than RE. But yes, in teamfights, RE was generally the better spell, however, deciding when and where to use it was tricky too; scanning all current and possible situations when to get the most out of the damage AND shield AND speed was mental work. And rewarding.

If we give RE some form of utility, we still don't solve the onesidedness of it all. Some people suggested a knockback, for example, but this still would make it the way best spell for support. The solution I seek is to make RW a better support spell, so RW and RE are at least competing. And, well, if RE can't be a second option for mid Karma, maybe RW too... but this puts a huge burden on it.

currently Karma doesn't really care if you cancel or outrange her Mantra W because she still got half the healing

I disagree. You spent your mantra on half the healing and missed the whole bonus root. This is not worth the mantra, that could've been used for safe shield/speed or easy poke. You also lost 1/3rd or 2/3rds of W damage.

I'd really like to see some sort of synergy between her abilities, but W feels pretty lackluster so I think it could be a good place to add some high points for Karma.

I fully agree. If you want to check my latest rework, I completely replaced it with a dragon crest ability. Not the best option, but it works better for combos than current W. I am still tempted to make something out of the tether tho.

There was a point in the game directly after Soraka's rework where she was picked a lot and LCS teams were utilizing healing minions to take towers faster with less minions than the enemy team, giving them an advantage all game. It's not something that gets utilized often in a solo queue game but it can be incredibly damaging to pro play

Thanks for explaining that, but.... is that currently happening with Karma too? I am curious. I don't watch it regularly.

I just think shieldbomb would be the "easy way out", and it introduces its own host of problems while not really addressing the thematic disconnects in her current kit.

I think the shieldbomb is very often just a "pars pro toto". A way of expressing the lack of thematics her old kit/version had. The lack of flexibility and duality. And personally, I just like spells that protect and harm at the same time. As such, I like Zenyatta and Zarya in Overwatch and I am super pumped for Ana.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

What I mean by Karma not caring about W root is that there's only 1 situation where she uses it - when she's low on health. She gets back a fair amount of HP from the first proc, so purely from a "does Karma survive" standpoint she doesn't REALLY care if you run away after that because she's done what she wanted to do with her Mantra W (survive). I would like to see the change primarily because it would give the spell more offensive capability - losing the first Mantra W proc due to full or at least not empty enough HP bar becomes less of a problem when the spell itself is gonna put you in range of retribution AND heal you more the second time around, but currently it's basically a purely defensive options.

And I don't think Karma shield on minions has been incredibly common in LCS or anything, it's more a matter of bringing it in line - it was Soraka's turn when she was on the stage and if Janna shield on towers ever causes her to get picked I imagine that'll get removed too. I was more stating that I don't think that change was specifically like "this is too strong on Karma!" it's just more of a "this mechanic in general has proven to be very powerful so we're removing it now since she's becoming popular".

SilverSquid3 votes

She gets back a fair amount of HP from the first proc, so purely from a "does Karma survive" standpoint she doesn't REALLY care if you run away after that because she's done what she wanted to do with her Mantra W (survive)

Well, I mean... if they quickly disengage and you only healed for half what you wanted, it's possible they can then reengage. So you kind of survived, but aren't really better off. Also that 0.5+s delay on that heal makes it so hard to use for emergencies, I don't know if I would want to keep that in the first place.

when the spell itself is gonna put you in range of retribution AND heal you more the second time around, but currently it's basically a purely defensive options.

Retribute? With what? Another Q? Doesn't seem impressive :-/

this mechanic in general has proven to be very powerful so we're removing it now since she's becoming popular".

Yeah, and I think that's a thoughtless decision. And I hope I could show why you shouldn't just do it "because we did it for others also, lol" It should have an individual reason for every champion. It was broken on Soraka, not needed on Lee&Lulu and didn't fit new Taric. But Karma can actually use it.

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