A Detailed Post on Karma and her Twin Dragons

SilverSquid··329 votes·27,556 views

Hi there, welcome to one of my indepth Karma posts. This one is about Karma, twin dragons, some HIDDEN DATA, balance and a rework. Feel free to skip to any part, or this whole thread, if you are not interested. For all those who continue reading, let's start with a few basics to warm you up:

If you wanna know why I am doing this, read up on my poem "I used to main Karma".

So now I am here, writing posts every week, complaining and highlighting why Karma (to me) feels bleak, I don't want to be mean, so I try to be constructive, and write in form of analysis, reworks and updates.

If you think that Karma has no problems in terms of design, feel free to disagree with Lead Champion Designer Meddler, who wrote;

Revised Karma's a more functional, healthy champion, but also in many ways a pretty bland one, with a lot of tools on her kit that feel too familiar, even if there's some interesting nuance to their use. I wouldn't say she was weak, I'd certainly agree she wasn't sufficiently satisfying or distinct though.

This becomes increasingly problematic, if you consider that those weren't problems ignored by the rework, but introduced by it. You can also check out Meelan's insightful post about how Karma's update was incomplete from a STYLISTIC point of view. A short summary:

  • Unfinished animations (E used to have a casting animation)
  • No unique dance (half of Shen's dance)
  • No haste animation, on a frequently MS buffing champion (whereas the next champ in line, Sejuani, did get one)
  • Mantra sentence has been cut. She now literally says "Sae Eleisa Tera Vi" which means "Discover the meaning of...". She used to say "Phyla!" (Tranquility), "Jia!" (Pain) or "Saera!" (Magic)

If all of this didn't convince you yet, let me try to paint the picture here.

Does Karma Need a Rework

In terms of power? No. Karma is one of the most buff resistanc champions in the history of league. Nearly a dozen direct buffs and not a single direct nerf, yet she barely ever exceeded the 50% winrate. Karma's kit has so much counterplay to it, that overbuffing is basically a nonfactor. In her current state she isn't and can't become a threat to the game or the meta. Even when having broken items or talents, other champions become more of a problem (tank karma was obnoxious, but not nearly as problematic as tank Ekko and tank Fizz).

In terms of design Oh dear, yes. Karma has no niche. She exceeds in nothing. She has poke, burst, sustained damage, a shield, a heal, decent mobility, CC, group protection, group utility, true vision, slows and decent waveclear. She needs CDR and mana, because she needs to spam, she has decent base damages, but penetration will leave her utility lacking, her W requires tank stats and RW encourages that, while she could use AP in every aspect of her kit, but doesn't scale excessively with it. So even her builds are all over the place. To be a decent champion, one needs propper strenghts and weaknesses. Not having clear weaknesses makes enemies frustrated and clueless, not having propper strenghts makes finding a reason to pick her a chore. Without them, champions aren't tangeable and feel bland.

This was one of the problems with her rework in 3.5 Instead of highlighting Karma's strengths as a battlemage with enchanter qualities, Riot added range, CC and group protection. They failed at giving her direction. They made most Karma fans not even recognize Karma anymore. And they also took away her fanweapons.

And this is more of a problem, than you might think. Let me show you:

Visual Identity

Lux --> Light. Annie --> Fire. Sona --> Music. Malzahar --> Void(lings). Xerath --> Electricity. Karma --> ....

Every champion has a weapon, that defines them. This is to give them clear roles, while also allowing future champions to be different to them. It would be really boring, if all mages had just differently colored "magic". It ought to have a certain flavour. Watch Necrit's amazing video for more info on visual identity.

Karma doesn't have anything. Is it "soul magic"? It doesn't feel or play like it. It's just colors. But what if I told you, that she USED TO have a weapon, that propperly replaced her lost fans. That wouldn't leave her feeling "empty". Weapons, that could be seen in her concept art down below. Take a quick gander!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zrHgmN6uoto/maxresdefault.jpg

Yes, that's right; the twindragons in her crest were to be used as her casting animations, forming around her hands and shooting at her foes. This should've been apparant in her LORE too. And guess what: It already was IN THE GAMEFILES. And thanks to the user URACLE I found out too! Here, take a look:

New Friends from Long ago

http://i.imgur.com/foJ6eeR.png?1

This is Ouro. He's been in Karma's data since her rework. Of course he doesn't have an official name, but that's what I call him. And he inspired me to give Karma a propper rework. Currently her kit seems so rushed; no proper passive, W is stolen from LeBlanc, her kit's stat synergies are all over the place, she has nothing unique in her kit and she doesn't have a niche. She even gets outdone as a "jack-of-all-trades utility mage" by Lulu.

I tried to make her fit somewhere. For that, I used Karma's twindragons Ouru and Boros to create a thematic identity and the idea of karma (punish evil doers, protect the weak) to compose a damage/health manipulating mage, akin to her current form, but more distinct and cohesive.

Before we do this, a short note though:

http://cdn.muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/ouroboros-design.jpg

The ouroboros (...) is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. [It] often symbolizes self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end.

Ouroboros is the serpent that bites its own tail and probably the origin for both the infinity symbol ∞ and Yin-Yang ☯. Arguably it could've also inspired the Ionian crest, which is why I think it's so fitting to name the twindragons after him. They symbolize balance, infintiy, wholeness and duality.

Both, for stylistic and gameplay reasons, Ouru and Boros need different colors. Here are my suggestsions;

Name - Ouru color / Boros color Classic - Turquoise / Purple Traditional - White / Black Sakura - White / Green Sun Goddess - Yellow / Green Order of the Lotus - White-Gold / Pink-Gold Warden - Light Blue / Metal -Silver

And now to the more interesting stuff; actual game design!

Creating a Kit

Currently, Karma's "Gathering Fire" is a joke of a passive. Nearly every other passive in the game adds something to the character and sets the ground theme, like Anivia reviving, Brand setting people ablaze, Thresh collecting souls, etc. (just imagine them without those). Being aggressive and hitting enemies as much as possible doesn't only NOT fit Karma's character, it is also SO underwhelming thematicly, that Karma mains usually wish it would be just nerfed and moved to the ultimate, in order to give Karma a real one.

This is where Ouro and Boros come into play. They make for a nice passive! They could grant Karma their power, but in alternating ways. I imagined them as whirling from Karma's crest to her arms (right for Boros or left for Ouru), whenever she casts a spell. It makes sense to give Karma's spells different properties, depending on which dragon she uses. So every spell must have two possible bonus effects. For her passive itself it would make sense to give it an effect that makes her deal and take more damage or deal/take less, depending on the active dragon. This would be a double edged sword, and while she can control it, her enemies can play around this as well, as alternating spells is rather predictable. The distinct colors (see above) should telegraph those ups and downs to the enemies and Karma alike.

To not make this passive feel like a restriction though, Karma needs a way to freely decide on the bonus effects, so at least one spell in her kit must enable easy switching of stances. Lastly, her mantra can unleash both effects to increase the flexibility even more, but also create some nice play around duality. It asks you to spot situations in which both Ouro and Boros can use their potential, to have a huge impact. Creating these situations or preventing them is a game that Karma and her enemy both can partake in.

Getting More Specific

I have chosen Q and E as Karma's most dualistic abilities. One is a damage ability and one defensive, adding either effect to them makes them really interesting to play around. This leaves W for a "bridge" ability, to allow for double offensive or double defensive moves (Q-W-E) using either dragon for the first and third spell.

It will probably dissappoint some people to read, that I removed the tether. For multiple reasons. Firstly, as a bridge ability it fails. It usually acts more like a one-way-street than a bridge, favouring being in the middle and making one combo straight up better than the others. Secondly, with the twindragons and an ally/enemy function it gets overloaded too quickly. And thirdly, I wanted to remove as much CC as possible anyways. Why? To allow Karma to be more powerful in terms of damage/protection and give her a clearer identity, with pros and cons.

Lastly, I must note, that I tried to take away the power of mantra and spread it more evenly into Karma's kit. Karma should be about mastering all of her spells, offensive and defensive, repeatedly making good decisions and not just landing a single impactful spell once every 1-2 minutes. Thus all her abilities - or twindragon effects, to be precise - will scale with ultimate levels, making her overall stronger when reaching lvl6, symbolizing balance; over one sidedness. It also makes R feel more like a tool than a half-hearted ultimate design.

Take a look at how it turned out!

FULL REWORK

!!!VALUES ARE HIGHLY TENTATIVE AND DEBATABLE!!!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CChg6tOAmqk/hqdefault.jpg

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122919 P - DUALITY

Karma carries Ouru and Boros with her at all times, but only one will be active at any given time. If Ouru is active, Karma gains 5/10/15/20 extra resistances. If Boros is active, Karma's next ability will have 5/10/15/20 extra magic penetration EDIT: I have been convinced, that bonus magic damage on AAs might make more sense. Additionally Karma's next spell will have bonus effects depending on the dragon it was cast by. After casting a spell, the other dragon will become active and whirl around Karma's hand (Ouru left, Boros right). All of Ouru's and Boros' effects scale with Mantra levels.


http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/ad/Inner_Flame.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920&format=webp Q - INNER FLAME

25% Slow removed Ouru: Hitting enemy champions heals the lowest nearby ally by 30/40/50/60 plus 5/7/9/11% (+1% per 100AP) of their missing health. _EDIT: Too good on tanks. This makes more sense: by 20/40/60/80 (+1 per 50AP) increased by 3% for every 1%hp the target is missing. Boros: Hitting enemy champions deals 10 extra magic damage for every champion they have killed this game.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/45/Soulflare.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122923&format=webp RQ - SOULFLARE

50% Slow removed Ouru and Boros travel to target location applying all their effects and Inner Flame's damage in the area. After 0.75s the area explodes applying all effects again.


http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0c/Focused_Resolve.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122918&format=webp W - DRAGON'S CREST

Target ally/enemy takes 10/13/16/19/22% (+1% per 50AP) less/more damage from all sources for 4s. Ouru: Surrounding allied champions are healed for 15% of the damage the target takes, up to 50/100/200/300. Boros: Surrounding enemy champions receive 15% of the damage the target takes, up to 50/100/200/300.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2a/Renewal.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122922&format=webp RW - DRAGON'S BLESSING

Ouru and Boro both apply their effect in the area, but with no hard cap. Additionally, the area's size increases by 100/200/300/400 units.


http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c4/Inspire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920&format=webp E - INSPIRE

MS buff moved Ouru: The targeted ally also gains 45/50/55/60% bonus MS for 2s. Boros: The shield errupts, dealing 80/110 /140/170/200 (+0.5AP) magic damage to enemies in a 300 units radius (this equals 3 teemos or roughly half his attack range)

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/40/Defiance.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122917&format=webp RE - INSURGE

Increases the damage and shield by 30/90/150/210 (+0.4AP), increases the damage-radius to 600 units and speeds up all hit allies.


http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Mantra.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122921&format=webp R - Mantra

Probably needs a CD adaption Karma's next basic ability within 8s profits from both Ouru's and Boros' power and becomes easier to apply. Mantra's cooldown resets if a nearby ally dies.

Aftermath - If You Want further Information

I originally tried to let Boros deal current%health damage, to really equalize the battlefield, depending on your choices, but it made her too strong against tanks and too generalistic... and not just good against "badies" as it was supposed to. This Q effect would give Karma the identity as an anti-snowballer and make rampaging carries more vulnerable to her. Fortunately it's mostly in a skillshot, that is telegraphed and can be dodged/bodyblocked, so Karma should not become stronger for free if others do well, just give her priority targets. On another note, this should also justify why Karma could instagib the Noxian general in her lore.... because he supposedly had killed a hundreds of people beforehand!

RQ is pure duality. Double dragons, double effects, double procs. For all those who think the faster follow-up explosion might be too strong, consider this; with a 50% slow everyone can escape THE CENTER of current RQ with no boots in 1.5s. Removing the slow should make everyone capable of escaping a SPOT ON RQ in 0.75s. Numbers are still up for debate, but just so you understand why this probably isn't as strong as it looks.

W is probably confusing at first, because it does many things. It always deals the increased damage on enemies, no matter what dragon used. Just the aura changes. If a certain amount of damage was transferred to nearby units, they won't benefit from it anymore, but the crest (damage increase/decrease) will always last the full 4s. Another thing this ability does, is to allow for "damage support", a lot of decision making, group protection (if all get hit, the ally taking the hits can heal the others) and some return damage. This, in addition to the RQ and E changes, should make Karma more short-ranged, or at least allow her more power in her direct vicinity.

RW is kept rather simple, to not make the W tooltipp unreadable. For teamfights this should still prove potent enough though.

E might make some Karma fans happy, because shieldbomb is back, and others maybe worrying, because the speedup is now conditional. Be assured that using the speedbuff can be guaranteed if you are mindful of your passive and have either W or R up. W-E or E-W will always grant you the desired effect of damage reduction, shield and speedbuff.

RE, again, is rather simpel, but should give Karma another, reliable damagetool and retain her group mobility, that she always had (in Old Karma with RW, New Karma with RE).

The mantra reset is very experimential and I am not 100% sure about this. It fits the thematic of getting back at someone for killing good people (what karma/Karma should do) and gives Karma fair windows of power, instead of raw stats, as her old passive did.... but it might become REALLY obnoxious with its anti-snowball nature and probably prevent a final deciding teamfight from being won. Might be good, might be bad. Alternatively one could use the cooldown reduction from her current passive, but it interacts weirdly with Boros' W aura. Let me know what you think!

Thoughts about Lore

I imagined this version of Karma to be the final stage of enlightenment Karma, compared to current Karma, who is just starting out. The idea was, that the fight with the Noxians had unlocked her connection to the twin dragons and with training and meditation she learned to master them. The twin dragons are supposed to be similar to the tentacles Illaoi is using; not the entity itself, but represantations wielded by the worthy.

http://img01.deviantart.net/9433/i/2015/156/b/8/karma_by_wikimia-d8w45dj.jpg

Karma's strong conviction and desire for balance allows her to use the power of Ouru and Boros and channel them through her soul, performing all their wonders. Fully opening up to them and casting her mantra symbolizes reaching a full connection and their full potential. So my proposed version is more similar to Spirit Guard Udyr, as it paints Karma as the person she can become after mastering her arts. Essentially, current Karma would be canon.

Summing Up

Thanks for reading! This took me literally over two month to create, write, compile, format and correct, but I can only imagine how hard and exhausting it must be to read through it. If you really didn't skip anything, you have my deepest respect and honest gratitude.

Please offer me your kind criticism, positive or negative, and remember to keep it civil and constructive :).

Greetings, SilverSquid

299 Comments

IxtaliKing28 votes

I actually really like this, nice work Silver :).

P - Reintroducing duality via her passive is a nice touch, I was thinking of posting an idea for a similar new passive and a new resource earlier, but I like your idea more xD.

Q - That boros Q is frighteningly fitting for Karma, it would finally give her a thematically fitting identity. The Ouro Q adds some interesting depth to the skill and I'm sure would please old karma fans.

W - I like this W, it makes use of her crest (which I like) and it seems like a suitable replacement for that tether.

E - Offering a choice between the speed boost (Ouro) and shield bomb from the jump without mantra (boros) is an interesting idea, I like it.

R - Getting resets when an ally dies kinda makes sense from a thematic stand point, I just can't tell whether this would be either too weak or too strong in some situations. I'm imagining her whole team dying and her going on a (broken?) mantra fueled rampage, or nobody dies and she gets only one mantra. This rework seems like it might actually be a good opportunity to reintroduce her mantra charges.

SilverSquid5 votes

Thanks for the feedback. I am glad you like it :)

This rework seems like it might actually be a good opportunity to reintroduce her mantra charges.

Ugh. You are right! During developement W used to have two charges at one point (and did a lot of crazy stuff). I scrapped my usual "1 charge till 6, 2 charges after 6" solution to keep her kit more simple and not have two charge abilities in it (that felt just awkward). But now that you mention it, it could actually fit this version I ended up with. The "reset" passive would probably even work out with just giving you a charge if an ally died!

But good thinking, bro!

IxtaliKing3 votes

The "reset" passive would probably even work out with just giving you a charge if an ally died!

It might just, would it have a cap though?

Btw 50+ upvotes on a Karma rework thread, that's big! You're becoming like the Malicious Metal of Karma mains lol xD.

SilverSquid5 votes

Sure! 2 stacks, as usual.

Yeah, I expected it to get around 18-20 upvotes if it would break the dreadful 3upvotes barrier, so something around my last two reworks. I am really flabbergasted But this also took 8 times the time (2 months vs 1 week) to write it, so maybe this finally pays off? I mean, this is becoming my best voted content, even though it's about Karma, even though it's a wall of text, even though it's a rework suggestion.

I am incredibly happy right now. If this gets a red response I will have to call in sick at work; endorphine overdose ^^'

IxtaliKing8 votes

If this gets a red response I will have to call in sick at work; endorphine overdose ^^'

Lmao xD.

Reds rarely comment on rework suggestions so that would be really big. This is definitely the best Karma rework suggestion so far though, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone on the ChampUp team has this thread bookmarked for future reference.

SilverSquid7 votes

This is definitely the best Karma rework suggestion so far though, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone on the ChampUp team has this thread bookmarked for future reference.

You stop that. I am already hyperventilating!

CanadianFarmer4 votes

Keep up the good work!

MargaretThatcher9 votes

Hey, i know i am not saing much but... i have seen you in the forums since the karma rework. I love all the effort you put in the work, how you try to make karma what she was before, what everyone that remember her thinks when someone says karma.

I just want to say thank you for this great job, keep it up. I am not an avid karma player, but i really liked the old one,you make me remember the old days.

SilverSquid5 votes

That's weird, I actually only joined the boards half a year ago ^^' But thanks man, your honesty and kindness warms my heart! The boards seems to be filled with negativity, so seeing someone be calm, thankful and nice just for the sake of it feels like a summer rain after a long drought. Thank you for being a rare gem of positivity!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Rhyto8 votes

www.riotgames.com/careers

Go...please go now and just....do it! T_T.....

TNHA Baritone6 votes

I love the names. I REALLY do. Ouru makes my pp hard tbh I love your ideas....Supp karma would be so much more fun with the changes too

Quepha6 votes

Riot has already talked about the many inherent problems to "polarity" kits like the one you described.

This champion kit has an even more poorly carved out niche than live Karma. So many different effects scattered all over the place means that most of it will have to be balanced down to microscopic values.

You've also completely dulled the effects of her mantra, none of the mantra spells sound very exciting and most notably RQ sounds like a complete waste of a cooldown.

IxtaliKing4 votes

This champion kit with an even more poorly carved out niche than live Karma.

Live Karma has absolutely no niche so I call bs on this.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

Live Karma has absolutely no niche so I call bs on this.

Master-Baiter Skirmisher Steamroll-enabler

IxtaliKing4 votes

None of those things are niches.

Master-Baiter

Not sure if this is meant to be a joke or...

Skirmisher

Pretty sure that's a subclass :/.

Steamroll-enabler

AKA support?

SilverSquid5 votes

Riot has already talked about the many inherent problems to "polarity" kits like the one you described.

link pls

This champion kit has an even more poorly carved out niche than live Karma. So many different effects scattered all over the place means that most of it will have to be balanced down to microscopic values.

If you hadn't trolled my last few posts, I would be wondering why this doesn't make any sense.

You've also completely dulled the effects of her mantra, none of the mantra spells sound very exciting

To you. If you don't like double utility effects and better reach, fine, you don't have to. If you want impactful, high CD spells, go play Veigar or Ziggs and blow some stuff up.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

link pls

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9LeEYAbM-meddler-what-about-an-ultimate-that-can-knockback-or-vacuum-based-on-a-condition

To you. If you don't like double utility effects and better reach, fine, you don't have to. If you want impactful, high CD spells, go play Veigar or Ziggs and blow some stuff up.

You admit yourself that you've taken power away from her R button when she already has one of the least impactful R buttons in the game.

SilverSquid4 votes

Following this description, my kit doesn't qualify as a polarity kit. My kit only offers bonus effects, and they never profit the enemy.

You admit yourself that you've taken power away from her R button when she already has one of the least impactful R buttons in the game.

Corki Nidalee Jayce Elise Udyr They have less powerful R buttons than Twindragon Karma and are doing just fine.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

Following this description, my kit doesn't qualify as a polarity kit. My kit only offers bonus effects, and they never profit the enemy.

and the wrong bonus effect is completely useless in some situations.

Corki Nidalee Jayce Elise Udyr They have less powerful R buttons than Twindragon Karma and are doing just fine.

They might have less impactful buttons, but they still seem more essential to those champion's kits. Your Karma kit could probably survive just fine without her R button and your RQ is truly a trap and waste of a cooldown.

SilverSquid4 votes

and the wrong bonus effect is completely useless in some situations.

Which is not the problem with polarity kits? Go read the link you provided, you don't seem to know what it's about.

They might have less impactful buttons, but they still seem more essential to those champion's kits

Udyr can spend 15 levels without putting a single point in R.

Your Karma kit could probably survive just fine without her R button

Lux could probably survive just fine without her shield.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Which is not the problem with polarity kits?

It's the same problem to a lesser degree. Some of Karma's power budget is put into her passive, and if you use your abilities in the wrong order or forget which side you're on at the moment then you effectively lose out on that power budget when you need it the most. It's a huge barrier on her skill floor. And since she alternates every cast it forces her out of filling a niche on a team since any fight she goes into requires half her spells to give the support effects and half to give the offensive effects. I think Karmas with this kit would be looking at their spells to figure out which is the "Molten Shield" of their kit that they can use to waste the ouros procs and get to the boros procs they actually want.

SilverSquid2 votes

[deleted]

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

So you still don't understand what the problem with polarity kits is? You continue to amaze me.

"W - Dragon Crest" is the "molten shield" of this kit, as well as her mantra. You would know that if you read my post, lol.

At the numbers you gave it sure would be, but there's no way those numbers would stay. Once balanced that ability would look like a joke and RE would be the goto.

SilverSquid3 votes

If balanced, all abilities would be viable.

You also just didn't respond to anything you quoted.

Voluug136 votes

I feel Mantra should go back to have 2 stacks.

Why?

Because that way Karma couldn't be so dependant on a single ability's burst (which leads to either a binary or unhealthy rotation).

Old Karma's biggest point was the fact you could use 2 mantra'ed ablities for way more flexibility and adaptability, and all the mantra choices were strong when used correctly in most situations. Also it means that her offensive is way way less burst and more defensive and sustained, befitting her more frontline mage persona instead of yet another squishy psedobursty pseudopoke Lulux clone.

EDIT: Give her back her fans and make Ouro and Boros be attached to them, she uses the fans as magical focus, tie in lore she uses the enchanted fans as conduits for the extremely powerful forces of Ouroboros.

SilverSquid1 votes

Yeah, KingKold already pointed that out. I HAD two mantra stacks one time in developement, but I had to cut them, because it didn't work with the kit (mostly W). Ironically, it could very likely work with this final version, but I didn't think of it when doing my polish. Ugh. Something like this would've been feasible:

  • Karma gains one stack of mantra every 40/40/35/30s.
  • Karma can store 1/2/2/2 charges of mantra at once.
  • Karma gains one charge of mantra, when a nearby ally dies.
Voluug133 votes

I feel the mantra charges at ally death is a bit... hard to balance. It could be either too strong or too weak, depending on her team and her numbers.

However I do like limiting Mantra charges to Ult Levels, which reigns in the lvl1-3 cheese without nerfing her lategame.

Another effect of mantra charges: her basic abilities couldn't feel as weak as they are now thanks to the wonderful thing is hgiher mantra uptime.

Even another one: She couldn't fall mid/lategame so hard, while her earlygame is much less binary and cheesy.

Rico Nasty5 votes

This seems to pigeonhole her more into a supportive role, could we maybe add a little damage to her Q and/or W? Plus, she needs that slow on RQ. It makes it so that the AoE explosion thingy after the initial casting can actually hit stuff.

SilverSquid35 votes
  • Gave her free Mpen.
  • Added damage possibility to Q
  • Added damage amp/spread to W
  • Added damage possibility to E

She should have the damage to compete in midlane.

A full damage combo RQ - W - E would deal [(20x kills) + 720 + 1.7AP] x 1.22(+AP) in about 1.5-2 seconds. With 500AP and fighting against a champion with 5 kills, this amounts to 2.204,4 magic damage. Currently, Karma would deal 2.245 magic damage with her W-RQ combo. While the current version offers more CC, this one offers additional Mpen, further damage amplification, heals from Q and W and a kill-scaling. She should do fine in mid. Especially against assasins.

Plus, she needs that slow on RQ. It makes it so that the AoE explosion thingy after the initial casting can actually hit stuff.

I reduced the time until the second explosion hits to 0.75 seconds. In theory, this should both be equally hard/easy to hit. However, it's vastly easier to hit behind minions, when others get CCed and when enemies react slowly. As a downside, you can't apply the CC yourself and can't guarantee it on long ranges. This was intentional too.

invisiblecat13 votes

Dragon's crest is a little too strong, at 600 AP a 34 % damage buff if a little insane, and with the other forms of damage and utility she has in her kit she will just do SO much damage (Riot has shown this is really bad on ranged champion since Ahri had hers removed, and so has DFG been remove, but Fizz can have it since he has to dive in in order to use it properly)

Also to add on, the ally champion dying reset thing is a great idea, but since you have protection for your team and some comps don't die too often this will be too situational.

Other than this I LOVE the change ideas

SilverSquid7 votes

Well, to be fair Ahri had 20% extra damage on top of the damage and CC charm provided. So, without the damage and CC, 34% seems actually pretty moderate. I am currently actually more worried about Q's heal being too strong.

But arguing about values is pretty much pointless, if we cant test them :-/ Disregarding the values for a moment; do you think the kit has a chance though?

invisiblecat11 votes

That is probably I larger problem, because % Max hp heals are just too difficult to balanced, look at grasp of the undying, you can proc it so often, and it is a pretty decent heal, but with 600 AP, a 17% missing hp heal is just too strong even though it is missing hp. I would turn it into a larger base heal, but a vastly reduced MAX hp heal, but I am not sure how that will work

SilverSquid10 votes

Grasp of the Undying was more of a problem, because atop item 3068 item 3025 it offered too much damage for every champion, while building completely tanky. But I can see why missing%hp heals can be problematic. While I wanted Karma to retain her natural synergy with diving champions and engage champions, this might be too much.

I used the missing%hp to differentiate her from Vlad/Soraka and not make her too sustainy in solo lanes, so just giving it a huge base heal and lower missing%hp heals won't work. But how about something like this?

Hitting enemy champions heals the lowest nearby ally by 20/40/60/80 (+1 per 50AP) increased by 3% for every 1%hp the target is missing.

Edge of Daybreak3 votes

@ SilverSquid I think on issue with the passive is that it feels like I am playing a miniature version of invoker where I have to keep track of what spells I use and what order I use them in to get the benefits I want out of them which to me feels like it would be restricting. There is a good bit of hidden power too as the dragons naturally give benefits then you have mantra W doing all kinds of things at once.

I have to agree with Quepha on the RQ. I dont see why I would really attempt to use the RQ skillshot when I can have an aoe nuke that is instant and shields + haste my team. Then you gave her shield bomb naturally. That is not okay. I can only imagine how awful it would be to play a melee against karma knowing that if I get anywhere near her minions I could get slapped with an instant damage nuke. I am sure that I would know it's coming due to passive showing me but what am I going to do about it? Then the RW. I love what you proposed but only because I feel that would be broken to put that on say the enemy tank or your tank. The healing / free damage would be a lot with no cap. Heck if you put if on a squishy and they get bursted your team heals for 15% of that with no cap.

Oh small thing about the wording on Boros Q. Is that 10 extra damage being calculated by that specific enemy champion or the entire enemy team combined?

Other small thing. Mantra reseting when an ally dies. That could be a little much but with the CDR removed from the passive I guess that could work.

Oh this argument about karma having no niche is a little odd mainly because pros did pick her for the AOE haste. It functions similarly to sivir in that case giving her an on demand initiation button for the team. Sure you can buy coin but a decent shield + haste that you don't have to buy is great team utility to say she has 0 niches is just false as the only champion that can do that similar thing as easily is sivir and it's going to be on a much higher CD than karma.

SilverSquid6 votes

it feels like I am playing a miniature version of invoker where I have to keep track of what spells I use in what order in order to get the benefits I want out of them which to me feels like it would be restricting.

I don't know what invoker you are talking about, but is keeping track of abilities for extra power bad? It's similar to Renekton/Rumble keeping track of their resource bars, or Katarina keeping track of resets for extra power. But compared to their abilities, it's not even that limiting, because you always get the base effect.

There is a good bit of hidden power too as the dragons naturally give benefits then you have mantra W doing all kinds of things at once.

Is it hidden if it's visually telegraphed?

I have to agree with Quepha on the RQ. I dont see why I would really attempt to use the RQ skillshot

Because it's a more flexible, targeted ground ability, that's better against carries who are ahead? Also a higher AP scaling?

when I can have an aoe nuke that is instant and shields + haste my team

It doesn't shield the team (dunno if you just implied that, it seems like it), just a single person. It's restricted in its application too.

I can only imagine how awful it would be to play a melee against karma knowing that if I get anywhere near her minions I could get slapped with an instant damage nuke

Probably as bad as knowing that if you go up to lux you eat her root and damage spells? Or against Vlad who will just suck you dry? What's so bad about having a champion with close ranged damage and a shield? It's less damage than her current W and the same shieldvalue.... if it isn't OP now, why would it be OP then?

Heck if you put if on a squishy and they get bursted your team heals for 15% of that with no cap.

Then what? If your support just gets bursted from 2000 to 0 in those 4seconds, at best your nearby allies received up to 300hp, if they even were close enough and didn't have full health to begin with? Is that problematic?

Oh small thing about the wording on Boros Q. Is that 10 extra damage being calculated by that specific enemy champion or the entire enemy team combined?

Specific champion.

Other small thing. Mantra reseting when an ally dies. That could be a little much but with the CDR removed from the passive I guess that could work.

Interestingly, everybody says this about it. Would need testing.

Oh this argument about karma having no niche is a little odd mainly because pros did pick her for the AOE haste

She fights in the same niche as two items, so she doesn't have this niche "alone". Whenever the buildpath to Talisman is worse than frostqueen's Karma suddenly sees play, even if it's never groundbreaking. I don't think a champion should be an item supplement and I don't think items should become irrelevant if a champion is currently good. Besides, team mobility and team protection isn't what Karma used to be about or people know her for.... or, heck, expect when they hear the name or see her art or anything.

Also about that Sivir thing; Assuming MS base of 370, equally fast teams and a linear chase, Sivir gains you 1480 units (over 8s) , talisman gains you 444 units (over 3s) and karma gains you 333 (over 1.5s) extra units towards your enemies, ignoring decreased effectiveness on higher MS levels, which would make Sivir and Talisman comperatively more effective.

So if you wanna force an engage Sivir operates on a completely different level than Karma, whereas the talisman can be bought on any champion, like Sona and Nami, AND offer a gamechanging ult in addition to that.... an ult that's actually useful in the fight you provoked by spending Karma's teamfighting utility.

Romtheguy1 votes

Yo, heads up - Invoker is a champion/hero in Dota 2, another moba that exists.

When MooNMAN told you that he feels like it would be like playing a "miniature Invoker" because of handling and tracking spells, he's more or less accurate haha. Here's a small explanation of Invoker's gimmick of sorts:

He has 3 abilities that give him colored orbs of 3 different colors that float around him. Depending on which orbs he chooses (example: all EEW or QQW), Invoker can use his ult, Invoke, and make an ability that fits on D and F, such as Ghost Walk, which will make him invisible, or EMP, which does damage in an AoE and drains mana. And yes, his ult is available at level 1, a change that was made on the current patch Dota 2 is in, making him FotM for those who can actually use him.

A total of a whopping 10 spells can be used at your disposal, which makes him a VERY tough champion to use as an inexperienced player, but worth it for powerful ULT-LIKE abilites.

SilverSquid2 votes

I already did a bit of research in the meantime, but thank you for trying to help out :)

I can barely wrap my head around this guy, but he seems like a very interesting design, definetely unique and I would immediately want to try him out, if I played Dota2. That being said, I do think he is vastly harder to pick up than my Karma iteration and he appears to have 10 REALLY different abilities, compared to my abilities, who just have different small bonus effects, or just merge to one.

Grief Me Please3 votes

Yo! I honestly can't even begin to say how happy I would be with these changes! I've always wanted a champ to have an alternating spell system, and Karma would just be perfect for it!! I hope rito looks at this!

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

I like when people come up with concept. but I don't like when they get specific to what the abilities and the kit is. actual game developers know how the kit will interact with the other 130 champions more than anyone.

SilverSquid8 votes

I kind of agree. However, when thinking up reworks and champion concepts, I always have to write down values to better estimate the power relations in the kit. While first and foremost I do this for myself, I think there are some similar minded people out there, who have an easier time imagining this when I write down the values, that I have anyways.

But of course, I don't expect any real designer to just adapt my values. Or take them seriously, for that matter^^'. A propper game designer could obviously just take the concept and ignore my values anyways :)

Grief Me Please2 votes

every day that goes by without this being a thing in game is another day of sadness :D

SilverSquid4 votes

Thank you, my friend. I would love to have a real game designer to have a look on this and tell me their honest opinion. But I don't know how to get them to do it, without being obnoxious.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

My first question: the Boros damage on Q, is that per champion killed or per UNIQUE champion killed (a.k.a hard capped at 50)? Either way, I'm having a hard time seeing why I would ever want a tiny flat damage buff over a %missing HP heal to allies. Then again, I'm heavily biased towards supports, so maybe that's it.

Second question: With two heals in her basic abilities, one of which has the potential to heal for a LOT in teamfights, I'm worried Karma is going to straight-up outperform LoL's other healer choices (this proposal already, as far as I can tell, matches or exceeds Soraka's non-ult healing). With all the hate for sustain supports in Riot these days, I wouldn't want to see these proposed heals put in only to have their numbers nerfed into obscurity. (Side question: will the W healing scale from damage taken pre- or post-resistance calculations? also I would limit target choice to champions, unless you WANT Karma to throw W on Dragon or Baron and heal her whole team for ridiculous amounts.)

Overall this rework does a lot towards giving Karma a dedicated theme, but it doesn't seem like you met your stated goal of defining her identity in gameplay. Proposed Karma still has poke, burst, sustained damage, a shield, two heals, decent mobility, and decent waveclear. The primary functions removed were all of her CC, which would give her extremely limited peel, and her true vision (which TBH felt underwhelming and could easily go).

Also just wanted to note that at ranks 2 and up, proposed W gives a greater boost to allied damage against a target than Vladimir's ultimate does, along with applying it (also at ranks 2+) to a wider area. The only place Vlad's ult exceeds Karma's W here would be in duration (5s vs 4s).

IxtaliKing5 votes

My first question: the Boros damage on Q, is that per champion killed or per UNIQUE champion killed (a.k.a hard capped at 50)? Either way, I'm having a hard time seeing why I would ever want a tiny flat damage buff over a %missing HP heal to allies. Then again, I'm heavily biased towards supports, so maybe that's it.

It's based on the amount of kills the enemy has acquired, making her more of an anti snowball/anti carry in keeping with her Karmic theme.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Sorry, but Riot's never going to just put a flat+scaling damage amp/block into the game.

And they got rid of the shieldbomb for a goddamn reason.

SilverSquid4 votes

Sorry, but Riot's never going to just put a flat+scaling damage amp/block into the game.

Why?

they got rid of the shieldbomb for a goddamn reason.

To scale up her passive, which I think was a bad reason.

SaltyKracka1 votes
  1. Because it's boring as shit, and either useless or completely overpowered.

  2. They didn't get rid of the shieldbomb because of her passive, they got rid of it because they wanted to put utility on the shield instead of a "ha ha you automatically lose the trade" effect.

SilverSquid3 votes

You honor your name with your salty responses, lol.

They didn't get rid of the shieldbomb because of her passive -- You

note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?), so we went down that path. Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction -- AnactualRiotdude

And for the other part:

they wanted to put utility on the shield

So why didn't they do that then?

SaltyKracka1 votes

Yes yes, unoriginal mentions of salt. You're so incredibly clever, let us all marvel at your originality and wit, then move on.

Upon reading the quote, what it says to me is that if they'd let the shield bomb remain in the game, the cooldown reducing passive would have had to either be so weak as to be useless or removed in its entirety.

And...What do you call and AOE shield and move speed boost if not utility?

SilverSquid4 votes

Yes yes, unoriginal mentions of salt. You're so incredibly clever, let us all marvel at your originality and wit, then move on.

I am not responsible for you choosing your name and then behaving that way.

the cooldown reducing passive would have had to either be so weak as to be useless or removed in its entirety.

Most Karma players I know would've prefered to keep the shieldbomb and that passive to be either nerfed and moved to the passive or replaced entirely.

And...What do you call and AOE shield and move speed boost if not utility?

They didn't put any utility there in exchange for taking away the damage, which you claimed.

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