Boards›Gameplay

What's so Karma about Karma?

SilverSquid··80 votes·5,558 views

I was recently wondering; is there still any karmatic aspect to her? To me it seems like there isn't. She used to, though:

  • Hurting her made her hurt YOU more (passive)
  • Healing you more for enduring more hardship (RQ)
  • Karma always catches up to you (W)
  • Hurting those preying the weak (RE on a focused ally)

But now? Her Q is just a damagespell, her E is just a leader/shield thingy. Her passive even rewards her for hurting others. Maybe her RW? Because it heals her if you engage her? I don't know it seems a bit off.

What do you think? Do you miss the karmatic theme on her? Do you think I missed a karmatic aspect on her, that you spotted? Do you think she should have her name changed to fit her gameplay? Or should her gameplay change, to fit the name? Do you not care about (her) thematics at all?

/discuss

Karma (...) refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Tema_Nezahat_Gokyigit_Park_1060584_nymphaea.jpg/1280px-Tema_Nezahat_Gokyigit_Park_1060584_nymphaea.jpg

122 Comments

Vistha Kai32 votes

Q, damage. RQ, more damage. W, root. RW, longer root. E, shield. RE, bigger shield.

All the duality went down the drain with that joke of a relaunch.

SilverSquid6 votes

There is still the heal left on her W, but it's really nothing special anymore, compared to all the heals champions get in their kits. Darius Lissandra Vladimir

I strongly miss her duality too, but mind that this thread is about her "karma" thematics.

Vistha Kai13 votes

Karma thematics were exactly that. Duality.

You can't talk about old Karma without bringing up that part of her. She was the walking Yin Yang of the League, quite literally at that.

There is still the heal left on her W, but it's really nothing special anymore.

It fills the same role as the snare. Defensive. Why mostly defensive? Because the moment somebody walks out of snare's cast range they are free to go, highly limiting offensive capabilities of her W/RW.

SilverSquid8 votes

Fair enough.

For me, Karma had 3 thematics, that were all borrowed from the asian culture; **Buddha **(enlightenment), yin-yang (duality) and **karma **(rewarding good/hurting bad).

I wanted to talk one at a time, discussing the aspects in dfferent threads, but for most people they are probably too intertwined, to not feel the pain of losing all of them at the same time...

Vistha Kai4 votes

Kit-wise, only duality was present.

Both enlightenment and... karma were more prominent in her lore, than in abilities (or rather as much as any champion with defensive and offensive capabilities)

Earl Eulrich14 votes

before her rework everything on her kit had the "karma"-duplicity of yin/yang:

q: dmg/heal-cone w: buff/debuff e: shield/dmg passive: low health/power r...enabling the duplicity

now she´s just a generalist mage and a weaker version of lulu for the most part, dulled down to a nothing from a once beautifull swan. Just like the whole game.

KarKzz4 votes

Dang, karma reworkd should have been something with two "stance" "Good karma" with supportive abilities, and "Bad karma" with damages, it could have been so cool.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

I hoped Kindred would bring this as "dual" champion. Keen Kin lamb support, and dreadful Dred wolf damage dealer. But the whole "dual champion" and the icon and her (yes HER) kit is joke to it. Quinn is more dual champ than Kindred. And yes I am ranting about this second time already :P

Bondage Bunnyboy1 votes

{quoted}

I hoped Kindred would bring this as "dual" champion. Keen Kin lamb support, and dreadful Dred wolf damage dealer. But the whole "dual champion" and the icon and her (yes HER) kit is joke to it. Quinn is more dual champ than Kindred. And yes I am ranting about this second time already :P

Well, Lamb isn't really supportive in her lore. She's just as much of a grim reaper as Wolf, but she tries to make it less painful for the dying person. Lamb does more damage overall in the kit, too, resulting in a swift death, while Wolf just eats away at you really slowly...

KarKzz2 votes

Yeah, currently, the only thing that is related to kindred his their ult. The passive is a bit related to, but not that much. Everything else in their kit could have been put on any "random" identity. It would even be a quinn or ashe rework !

Q -> Dash and throw arrows Z -> Random AoE with a random pet (valor plz) E -> Throw random pet after 3 autos R -> Much harder to put on an other champion. They are other champion that can control / cheat death, but only kindred have so much control over death. Karthus can only "save" himself , yorik create armies of undead, mordekaiser control people souls, but those are only "zombies". Only zylean truly save people with time, and doctors kindred HATES him.

IxtaliKing13 votes

Whoever said she is "Karmatic enough" is just a liar, straight up. At the moment her kit is a loose nod to her current lore, which is fine if that's the direction they wish to take with her. However, she isn't Karma anymore. Riot should either change her name altogether (since they basically deleted her in 5.10), or bring back SOME elements of old Karma. At the moment Karma literally just feels like a basic leader, she has no "Karmatic" aspects and she fails at feeling like an "Enlightened One".

Vistha Kai9 votes

They basically deleted her, but way before 5.10. In 3.5 to be exact. 5.10 was just burying the carcass.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol for real

Vistha Kai2 votes

I always liked comparing her relaunch to her lore.

If you do so, they figuratively and literally killed her. No, really. Just look at it. In the old lore she struck a truce with Noxians, while in the new one she was replaced with a bunch of monks who got beheaded by those same exact soldiers.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I feel you, if I was around in the old Karma days I probably would have been mad at the rework. But 5.10 would have killed me, I would have quit. The lore issue I can kinda forgive because they are updating the whole thing.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I wasn't a Karma main by any means, I just had fun playing her back then.

Ironically I bought her like two or three days before they announced the rework.

While even then I knew the whole idea of that rework was bad, she was at least playable. Now? I have exactly zero reasons to pick her over any other mage or support (assuming I'd ever go support out of my own will).

The thing is that pre-rework she was better support than after it. A point which was widely understood, I believe. Post rework she was being played mid nearly exclusively, after all.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I used to play Karma as support before 5.10, and it felt a lot better back then since she didn't need as much ap to be useful. Getting damage on all skills from leveling mantra meant she didn't fall off a cliff after level 6.

Vistha Kai1 votes

She was still very sub-par regardless.

Compared to Sona or Lulu who were doing her job just as good or better, while having much, much more utility.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Yeah, the best thing about her was her surprise "wtf" moments when she'd shield bomb in a clumpy team fight and turn the tide. Funny that the best thing about her was the last remnant of her old kit.

ShinobisDemon2 votes

{quoted}

Whoever said she is "Karmatic enough" is just a liar, straight up. At the moment her kit is a loose nod to her current lore, which is fine if that's the direction they wish to take with her. However, she isn't Karma anymore. Riot should either change her name altogether (since they basically deleted her in 5.10), or bring back SOME elements of old Karma. At the moment Karma literally just feels like a basic leader, she has no "Karmatic" aspects and she fails at feeling like an "Enlightened One".

You guys are complaining that Vayne isn't Vain enough. That leesin doesn't listen. Can we please not attribute a champions theme to nothing but there name? PLEASE?

Annnie is pretty

Annie - Ying though. B-3

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol this made 0 sense

ShinobisDemon1 votes

{quoted}

Lol this made 0 sense

Let me explain.

Karma's theme isn't specifically Karma. It's just her name. Like how Vayne's name is Vain? But she doesn't have a Vain personality? It's completely unreasonable and has nothing to do with her kit.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I get what you were trying to do, but it just doesn't apply here. Karma's theme was in fact Karma, she had passive which was conveyed that fully and still has quotes alluding to that. Vayne on the other hand I believe her real name is Shauna or something, comparing Vayne with Vain just because they sound alike is not the same as Karma being named after her original theme.

Rico Nasty7 votes

Hello, fellow Karma main here. Honestly her old kit was such a fucking mess I wouldn't want them to straight-up revert it. HOWEVER, she definitely did lose her identity and her "color" I guess. I'd love for them to incorporate the same elements and concepts from her old kit that you listed above into a new kit, with more functioning combos and reliable abilities to make her actually useful.

SilverSquid1 votes

Yea, I agree man, I agree.

I have been playing around with those ideas for a few months now and tried reworking her in this manner, since Riot seems to not be willing or clueless how to rework her. You can see the reworks here:

The first one is to merge what was loved of Old Karma into the functionality of her new kit. The second one was to please old Karma fans and those who miss her fanweapons.

Let me know if you think this is something (similar to what) Riot should've done. Or if not, please let me know why, so I can keep improving my suggestions.

Rico Nasty1 votes

I say get rid of the tether. That thing is absolutely unneeded, a squishy AP caster should not have a short-range tether in her kit. Maybe another form of CC like a silence with a cool mechanic?

SilverSquid1 votes

I like her tether thematically. But the current W on Karma is a clusterfuck. I am preparing a whole thread on that thing. It fails thematically, makes her kit binary, confuses buildpaths, hitting it doesn't feel rewarding, neither does dodging it. It's just so clunky and visually problematic.

It would be funny if it CC'ed someone if they LEFT the range. If it transferred damage. Or CC. Or buffs. Or the tether touching was interesting too.... there is so much they could've done with it, and they made it do the least...

Rico Nasty1 votes

My thoughts exactly.

SilverSquid2 votes

Well, prepare your input for my post next week then ;) I'd love to have you there!

Quepha6 votes

{quoted}

  • Hurting her made her hurt YOU more (passive)

She's still the baiting queen with RW

  • Healing you more for enduring more hardship (RQ)

She still does this to herself through RW

  • Karma always catches up to you (W)

Still true with E, W, and Q. I would say it feels even more true now since her whole kit reinforces her kiting.

  • Hurting those preying the weak (RE on a focused ally)

Now her RE is more like "Don't poke a beehive unless you're prepared for the swarm"

SilverSquid5 votes

Baiting Queen? I don't know, RW is a bit too slow for that. And is it really the same if Karma does it to herself instead of others? I mean, Lulu can usually give more HP to anyone, than Karma can regain with her first cast.... while locking someone down instantly. So is Lulu more karma than Karma?

Still true with E, W, and Q

A 40%MS buff AND 40% slow for 5 seconds without a casting time was insane, even for todays standards. Especially on a 10s (usually down to 6s) cooldown. A 25% slow with casting time , a delayed root with casting time and a 60%MS for 1.5s doesn't seem too convey the same chasing potential. Even more so when compared to all the dashes that were added since then.

Now her RE is more like "Don't poke a beehive unless you're prepared for the swarm"

So Sivir is even more karmatic in that aspect?

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

So is Lulu more karma than Karma? So Sivir is even more karmatic in that aspect?

Where are Sivir's heals or shields? Where does Lulu have an AoE speed boost? Karma is a whole package, if you divide her into her individual skills then yeah, you can find champions who do that one thing better, but that doesn't mean anything. It's also ridiculous to compare full blown ults from other champions with Karma's mantra that is on a ridiculously low cooldown and available from level 1.

SilverSquid4 votes

You called her baiting queen, but I don't see how she is outstanding compared to most champions with heals or defensive abilities. You say she can still chase well, but there are so many that can chase better, that it makes her mediocre. You say that it's like poking a beehive, but her RE works independent if poked or not and most champions with catch potential or engages can have this applied to them equally well or better. Is it karmatic if you can chase independent of their actions?

Is being able to chase a bit, having some bait potential and a team speedup really "karmatic"? Because I don't see any overlap with the quote I provided.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Is being able to chase a bit, having some bait potential and a team speedup really "karmatic"? Because I don't see any overlap with the quote I provided.

Who can recover more than 40% missing hp in addition to giving themselves a fat shield? Only Mundo hits those kind of regen numbers on his ult and he doesn't get a fat burst of survivability at the moment he needs it which allows him to be bursted down at low health in a dive.

But yeah, having a versatile kit with several 'karmatic' moments in different situations does make it feel more 'karmatic' overall because a major point of the concept of karma is that it's not a specific thing.

SilverSquid2 votes

Realistically speaking she will never heal 40%. Either she is winning the fight and the first heal reduces the effectiveness of the second one. Or she is losing and dies/disengages after the first. Even then, the first heals ~500hp, while Lulu can heal more than that, quicker, on any target, without being forced to be close to enemies. Comparing her heal to Mundo's also doesn't make sense, because she isn't a tank and gets a lot less out of the hp. Mundo will be able to heal through dozens of AAs from ADCs (while running away), whereas Karma can heal through 1 or 2 (while cuddling). And calling her shield "fat".... nah.

a major point of the concept of karma is that it's not a specific thing.

It's about rewarding good intent/deeds and punishing bad ones. I can not see any of this in Karma's current kit.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Realistically speaking she will never heal 40%. Either she is winning the fight and the first heal reduces the effectiveness of the second one. Or she is losing and dies/disengages after the first. Even then, the first heals ~500hp, while Lulu can heal more than that, quicker, on any target, without being forced to be close to enemies. Comparing her heal to Mundo's also doesn't make sense, because she isn't a tank and gets a lot less out of the hp. Mundo will be able to heal through dozens of AAs from ADCs (while running away), whereas Karma can heal through 1 or 2 (while cuddling). And calling her shield "fat".... nah.

It's about rewarding good intent/deeds and punishing bad ones. I can not see any of this in Karma's current kit.

if she takes zero damage between the procs it would heal for 36% missing hp. If she does take damage she'll heal for more. It's actually possible for her to heal for more than 40% missing hp from the point she casts it if she is reduced to a lower health than when she started between procs.

Her mantra Q and W punish engages and make the enemy want to run from her or else take more damage and/or cc. Her Q and mantra Q punish grouping with AoE damage Her mantra W punishes diving her at low health when all of a sudden her health isn't so low and you're taking damage Her E punishes diving on her ally as they speed out of range Her mantra E punishes trying to harass her team by allowing them to disengage or turn around and close the gap

Orbv4 votes

I see what you were trying to do, and I can respect your opinion, but I do think it's reaching. Karma itself is not about punishing the bad, it's about balance.

Giving someone a shield and speed boost does not PUNISH anyone. If you are Warwick with 50 health and no mana, you are not going to be aiming to fight with 1.5 sec buffs. A shield is always a defensive ability. The speed boost is a bit of both, but the only way you could use it offensively is if the target does something on their own.

Pre-Rework Karma was all about Balance in her own abilities. She didn't need to require the ally to do anything outside of being in range or moving.

Current Karma's W is the only saving grace for her kit. It makes sense and works well. But Mantra Q....is purely offensive. You don't Mantra Q for only the slow unless you have no faith in your aim and need the larger blast radius.

And her passive is basically an ultimate passive...no balance. Hitting enemies helps you...and what does taking damage do?....nothing?...oh okay.

I loved Old Karma, and I used her to Gold...new Karma is okay. I don't dislike her, but she's not a particularly interesting champion to use.

Actually xPeke5 votes

They should rework/change her:

Q: Inner Flame

  • Allies that are hit with the AoE are healed for X amount

Q: Soulflare [R]

  • Both the first explosion and the delayed explosion heal allies

(Now her Q has ying yang again. Defensive, and offensive)

W: Focused Resolve

  • Can now be cast on an ally, granting them increased % AD and % AP.
  • Additionally, if Karma gains health, 40% of the value she gets is transferred to the ally bonded with. The same goes if the targeted ally get's healed. (Example: I bind myself with graves, he get's healed by a soraka for 200HP, since we are linked i get healed for 80hp aswell

W: Renewal [R]

  • The % AP and AD bonus is higher
  • Health value with Renewal is 60%

(Now she can once again tether allies)

E: Inspire

  • Nothing changed

E: Defiance [R]

  • Re-added overload, upon casting nearby enemies take X damage, increased by 20% for each ally shielded
IxtaliKing1 votes

I'd be totally cool with this, happy even.

Actually xPeke2 votes

I'm no Karma main, i mainly just wrote down what i think would be the best without changing her current kit to much I definitely do agree they ruined her kit with an earlier mini rework this season. They should look into her again

Sugar Momma4 votes

I liked old Karma too.

Tbh, all she needed was that mantra CD buff. They didn't have to change R-E and R-W (though I'll admit I really like the huge shield on R-E. Maybe they could bring back the dmg but weaken the AoE shield?)

Awoof3 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3227053&page=2

"I agree with you that there's no longer anything 'Karmatic' about her gameplay in her rework [...]" - Scarizard

SilverSquid4 votes

"...because there isn't supposed to be."

http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/8680474_f520.jpg

Orbv1 votes

This picture killed me

SilverSquid1 votes

I am so sorry!

R.I.P fellow Karma fan

[zombie-nunu-tears]

Voluug133 votes

The worst thing is that Scarizard reduced Karma's kit to ''muh OP ranged berserk passive is toxic!!!''.

The passive could have been replaced and no one could have complained.

The rest of her kit was the important thing tbh.

SilverSquid1 votes

Yeah, that.

And I don't get why they didn't limit her extra power to just a time period. Like "gets bonus spelldamage for x seconds, based on the damage taken". Voila, it doesn't reward playing at low health anymore, but encourages reactive play. Failing to kill her punishes you, but killing her is still the right thing to do.

They could've put it just on her Q. Or they could've let her Q deal extra damage based on the enemies bonus AD and AP. And you have got an easy justifiable damage support, that can deal meaningful damage to the right people without being forced to build mid-items.

There are so many solutions to keep the karmic theme alive.... that killing it just felt lazy.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Hey again, Squid. Not engaging, just saying hi. :3

SilverSquid4 votes

Oh boy, you are really active! Hi there :3 ! <waves from a distance> You allright and stuff, bro?

MisterHealYoGirl4 votes

https://m.popkey.co/beeea8/6ml4O.gif

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by SilverSquid

A Detailed Post on Karma and her Twin Dragons
Gameplay299 comments
329
votes
The Karma Changes Are Missing the Point. Here Is why!
Gameplay131 comments
72
votes
Why Karma Needs to Be Worked on
Gameplay136 comments
71
votes
Karma - Forever a Divided Community?
Gameplay85 comments
63
votes
Quick Fix for Karma
Gameplay58 comments
62
votes
An Open Welcome Letter to RiotNeuroCat as the Person Working on Karma
Gameplay68 comments
61
votes