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Quick Fix for Karma

SilverSquid··62 votes·4,864 views

OR: How to make Karma less oppressive and more interesting, without a rework.

King thought this would be interesting to many, so I am posting this as a thread.

But before we start:

Why does Karma need "fixing" in the first place?

"...isn't she fine?"

Yeah, I have heard that many times by now. She is balanced, she is played a lot, she was played in LCS, she has good win ratios. I get it. But that's not the point. It's about why she is there. How she got there. And how she is played currently.

Because she is boring. Not distinct enough and bland (going by Meddler's words here). Way too straight forward. You are an oppressive bitch in early game and throw uncounterable AoE shields in lategame on a really low cooldown. I don't think this is particularly fun to play against. Or watch in LCS, for that matter. I have seen enough Karma fans argue, that Karma has become more and more boring to play due to the many patches ever since her rework (like 5.10 that removed her core damage spell for no apparant reason). And quite frankly; a champion that is about karma (hurting the bad and rewarding good people), about wisdom and about balance, she really doesn't feel like it. And if you disagree with that: At least we can agree that she could feel so much more like it, right?

But Karma getting a VGU (Visual and Gameplay Update) is unrealistic. There are way too many trouble children in League, that are more toxic, unbalanced or look so ugly that it pains any visual designer just thinking about it. And I am glad for any champion, that will get it soon. Warwick looks amazing and I can only hope for Galio and Evelynn (and maybe Morde?) to be equally successful.

So I thought about how to "quickly" fix Karma. Make her more satisfying and interesting to play (against), without taking up the precious time of the Champ Up team. Changes that hopefully even the Life Balance team could push through. And this is what I came up with.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UQv7rhj7hfY/UTfiYvg8MGI/AAAAAAAAC8w/O9t-qviEu8Q/s640/12213213213karrma.jpg

Values are very scetchy. I am no real designer, so they are almost guaranteed to be wrong somewhere. Changes to her current abilities are highlighted.

Passive - Gathering Fire

Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1/1.25/1.5 seconds when using basic attacks **or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell. **

Q - Inner Flame

Unchanged

RQ - Souflare

Inner Flame travels (harmlessly) through enemies to target location to deal bonus magic damage and leave an area of effect that lasts 1.5 seconds, slowing enemies inside by 50%. The area detonates at the end of its duration, dealing magic damage to all enemies inside. If Soulflare does not hit a target, the area is created at maximum range.

W - Focused Resolve

Karma forms a tether between her and the target enemy champion or monster, dealing magic damage and granting true sight of them for the duration. If the target does not break the tether by moving out of range, it deals magic damage and they are rooted for a short time. If targetting an allied champion, instead of dealing damage Karma increases her and their resistances by 5/10/15/20/25/30 (+1 per 100AP) as long as the tether persists.

W - Renewal

Focused Resolve deals bonus magic damage and heals Karma for 40/80/120/160 (+1 per 20AP) increased by 3% for every 1% health she is missing, once upon being cast and once more upon rooting its target, with the root duration increased. **If targetting an ally, Karma gives up this heal to grant it to her ally instead. **

E - Inspire

Unchanged

RE - Defiance

Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, dealing magic damage to surrounding enemies and shielding all allied champions near them for a fixed amount and a percentage of the damage dealt, while granting them a fixed bonus movement speed.

R - Mantra

Unchanged

There. If you like it already, you can skip the rest. If you are confused about certain details, I tried providing some quick explanations for my choices. If this still leaves you unsatisfied, feel free to challenge me in the comments.

Explanations

I leaned towards making her a battlemage/enchanter, as suggested by the community and Meddler. This means reducing her CC (disruptor) and poke (artillery) qualities, in order to buff her consistent/close range damage (battlemage) and ally protection (enchanter).

[Passive] - Should interact with ALL of Karmas abilities, not just the offensive ones. I tried capping the passive to not make this a straight buff. Otherwise her RE would get REALLY crazy.

[Q - Inner Flame] - Unchanged [RQ - Soulflare] - Making it a targeted ground ability ensures Karma is not encouraged to fight at max range anymore, but thrives in close combat instead, even if minions are hugging her. Less poking but more consintency!

[W - Focused Resolve] - Ally function to offer "enchant-y" support qualities at expense of damage/CC. Note how this allows you to stay in battle next to your friends. [RW - Renewal] - Health scaling that fits a mage and ally function that fits an enchanter. Removed annoying root because most people hate it.

[E - Inspire] - Unchanged [RE - Defiance] - Shieldbomb again (giving Karma back her core damage spell), rewarding hitting many players of both team and discouraging simply targetting your team all the time (since it shields less). This adds a well needed skillcheck and makes it useful for mage Karma. I also ensured this scales mostly with mantra levels instead of E levels to make this a viable option even if not leveled, but less oppressive when leveled first.

[R - Mantra] - Unchanged

Final Words

I know this is not perfect, but I am no designer and this is only a quick fix. By that I mean I tried changing as little as possible and not adding any visuals that aren't already there.

Let me know if you like it. Let Riot know you like it by upvoting. And let me know if you dislike it in the comments. I would love to improve.

Thanks :D!

58 Comments

Joes15 votes

Love it. Absolutely love the changes. Makes karma a better support and a better mid laner while not making her over powered and more fun to play. She is sort of spilt now and would be the 1st mage supp than feels like a support in game (un-like zyra, brand, vel and such) Karma [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AcidTheWarlock15 votes

Mage support. Mage support. MAGE SUPPORT!

Rito.

Hire this man.

IxtaliKing9 votes

I 100% hope Riot does EXACTLY this. It's a solid compromise which captures Karma's original identity without alienating the players who like her rework.

Warden Karma8 votes

That is probably the best Solution to bridge her Problems until she gets a proper Rework. It gives Karma her iconic Shieldbomb back and surprisingly some of her Old Identity, while staying true to her current.

Its everything we can hope for until Riot decides to rework enchanters or make an ionian event, which will be who knows when (if at all)?

lordofthegoombas8 votes

Nice work, really like the idea of being able to use your tether on allies to buff them, feel like it would add a lot of cool choices and play potentials as Karma.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

so basically what is used to do before the karma rework...great :D

Pyrophilia5 votes

Oh, you beautiful soul.

I didn't read a single sentence because I'm tired and just so done with a capital D, but I can still call you beautiful.

SilverSquid1 votes

I hope you got a good dose of sleep to be rested with a capital R ^^

Pyrophilia4 votes

Hahaha, I meant tired as in tired of Riot and their incompetent bullshit and the Curious Case of Syndra and the Peculiar Case of Karma and the Fantastic Tale of RIOT-CAN-YOU-FUCKING-LISTEN...

But ye.

SilverSquid1 votes

Oh, my bad. Or their bad, lol.

Let me know if I can lift your spirits any way. I wouldn't want to miss you in this ;)

Pyrophilia1 votes

How lovely of you! But lol I am so far gone...

I'm like that old spouse who has fallen out of love and is now petty and bitter and just judges and harps on every little mistake the other person makes LOL...!

And then when Riot e.g. goes on a glorious quest of Illegitimate Retroactive Product Alteration with Hyena Warwick that now looks and is thematised NOTHING like old Hyena Warwick (incidentally the product version that originally made people want to spend money) I'm just like 'I HOPE YOU GO BANKRUPT... YESTERDAY!' XD

SilverSquid1 votes

So the world has claimed another cynic...

I use to say: The world is pretty shitty, but also pretty cool, and so are its people and companies too. Expecting perfection is reality neglection. an expectation correction makes life easier for you.

At least, that does the trick for me. But I have only been fighting this fight for 1.5 years now. I don't think I could blame you. I am glad you have kept your wit and humor, even if your hope has bitten the dust.

TheFlyingToaster4 votes

Hey, SilverSquid, just wanted to say thanks for continually trying to create well constructed and inviting discussion/theory-crafting on Karma. As usual, I really like your concepts that utilize the current kits assets to try and find a temporary thematic fix until something more indepth can be done. We share a lot of similar ideas in that regard. The only things in this current ideation I find a bit awkward would be the RQ and the Passive.

While I agree that people could and would learn to switch from skillshot to something akin to Lux's Q (I believe that is what you are suggesting) I think it would be best to keep it a skillshot. As seen with Heimer and maybe Rengar (Personally never player him) their empowered spells still functionally cast the same. By that I mean make her RQ a skillshot that passes through enemies, but rewards hitting enemies closer to yourself. Maybe something along the lines of a mini Ezreal ult with upgraded Victor E. As in Karma sends forth an AoE of spiritual energy (can be the same size as current RQ detonation field) that damages enemies it passes through. Additionally it leaves behind a trail of energy that slows enemies within. This trail detonates after a short duration (I'd keep it 1.5 seconds) dealing additional damage (also this would work like Victor's Upgraded E, so it detonates in a line, not immediately.) As for rewarding Karma hitting enemies closer to her, the slow % could be heavier the earlier the enemy is hit by the ability. Again this is just a thought to keep it functionally the same as her regular Q (aka line skillshot) while keeping the things relatively similar to the current Live version when Mantra'd.

As a side note, I'd actually nerf the range on regular Q and RQ to something between 750-850. I just think it is too safe of a high damage (when going AP) and spammable spell.

As for the passive I like the concept a lot (getting rewarded for helping allies and hurting enemies) and honestly with the rest of the proposed kit changes I am not sure what I would change about it. I suppose I just feel it could be pushed further conceptually (I fully acknowledge you know it isn't perfect). Maybe something like Allies who are shielded by Karma reduce Mantra's cooldown by .5/1/1.5 seconds (can only happen once per shield) and only Mantra'd spells that hit enemies reduce Mantra's Cooldown. I don't know just throwing out random ideas.

Anyway keep up the good work!

SilverSquid4 votes

Thank you, that is very kind of you!

Maybe something along the lines of a mini Ezreal ult with upgraded Victor E.

I am noting that one down. It sure isn't something I could use for a "quick fix" like this, as this definitely would require some animation changes and stuff, things I tried to avoid. But I am looking for a good solution to make her RQ a little bit more battlemage-like without making it just a double Lux-E. There sure is a certain someone that spams with me ideas in that regard, but any brain participating in this is welcome!

As a side note, I'd actually nerf the range on regular Q and RQ to something between 750-850. I just think it is too safe of a high damage (when going AP) and spammable spell.

Yeah, this is quite some unhealthy behaviour. It's a poke-AoE-burst-semi-ult-spell that has all of Karma's damage shoved into it. Not a good design for a battlemage, that should neither be about burst nor poke. The "targeted AoE" solution homes in on this problem by making the spell less reliable on long ranges and more reliable on short ranges, while also making hitting the second explosion harder (it doesn't auto-spawn under main target).... unleeeeess you rooted them first, which requires you to be close again. But in my proposed iteration it needs something to be better than RE in some situations, which currently is the increased damage, CC and range it offers (using it when RE is not applicable or not enough damage).

Maybe something like Allies who are shielded by Karma reduce Mantra's cooldown by .5/1/1.5 seconds (can only happen once per shield) and only Mantra'd spells that hit enemies reduce Mantra's Cooldown.

I wanted to slightly reward shielding allies (1.0-1.5s) and strongly reward hitting your full team (4-6s) doubling down on her selfles side. I don't know why you wouldn't want basic spells to reduce Mantra (nerf?). This would just make an argument for making it an ult-passive and giving her a real one instead. Which would be appreciated too, but probably also slightly outside the scope of a "small fix".

Anyways, thank you for your input, I will make sure to use it when possible. Also thank you for being an exceptionally positive spirit on these boards!

Lexyy4 votes

Karma mains are so smart. I love you all guys. :)

Varnoc3 votes

Well thought out. After re-reading it a few times, I like what I'm hearing.

The only question I've got is regarding the passive;

Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1/1.25/1.5 seconds when using basic attacks or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell.

Am I correct in my understanding that if I were to hit 3+ enemies with a Q during the late game, it would only shave off 6 seconds? That would be pretty lame.

My assumption is that "This ability cannot reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell." exists solely to keep Mantra+E in check, correct? Hitting all 10 players with this ability would be pretty stupid, considering it's instant.

Assuming that the answer to that is, at least partially, yes: Why not make the damaging portion of the "Shield Bomb" delayed? This gives the enemy team time to react to Karma's actions, rather than instant damage that can't be played around. With that delay, 7.5 seconds off Mantra immediately in an ideal scenario is reasonable. The remaining potential 15s is then in the hands of your opponent, they have time to react to the situation and attempt to deny you that additional CDR. Additionally, whomever you shielded (if they know what's up) would want to hit as many people as possible with it, making for some interesting team play.

2 Mantra charges where!? (I jest, I know why this can't happen.)

Other than that, lovely piece. Fine work as usual Squid.

SilverSquid3 votes

Am I correct in my understanding that if I were to hit 3+ enemies with a Q during the late game, it would only shave off 6 seconds? That would be pretty lame.

I don't know how often you would hit 3 or more players with a basic Q, but yes, this was reduced to balance out the "free" CDR you get from casting W and E on your allies.

Why not make the damaging portion of the "Shield Bomb" delayed?

I usually like including this, or at least giving the explosion an actual travel time. However, as I stated, I tried to make this not require any new animations, and I am very convinced that this would need a "threatening" vibe before exploding.

This and the 2 mantra charges stuff is something for an actual rework, not a quick fix ;)

Thank you for your insight and commentary!

chipndip13 votes

  1. This is a rework

  2. I don't like the R -> Q change. Not much point in making it akin to a Nami bubble when it was a standard skill shot. Also, higher variance requires more reward, so it'd need a damage buff.

  3. Not sure why everyone's trying to force the shield bomb back into her kit.

  4. W changes don't sound too bad, but I'd like more resistances per 100 ap.

SilverSquid5 votes

This is a rework

This should have the scale of her 5.10 "update" (which was done by the life update team) or any of the mage "updates" in summer.

I don't like the R -> Q change.

We could discuss it if you tell me why. If not, well.... everyone has their opinion!

Not sure why everyone's trying to force the shield bomb back into her kit.

Because it was her thing and main damage spell for the majority of her lifetime, a symbol for her dualism and until someone gives me a good reason why it was removed in the first place, I think she should have it back.

The recent shieldbomb on Ivern kind of tells me it can not have been that bad of a spell.

W changes don't sound too bad, but I'd like more resistances per 100 ap.

Could probably need more, yes. Hard to judge without testing.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

This should have the scale of her 5.10 "update" (which was done by the life update team) or any of the mage "updates" in summer.

I mean, it's still a rework of some scale. Regardless, this is me being nit-picky.

We could discuss it if you tell me why. If not, well.... everyone has their opinion!

Because it's either clumsy to land a good hit on later the damage from the increased variance (you just flat run through it to dodge it) or it's insanely oppressive earlier (you can't hide behind minions or tanks to body block it anymore). It has good intentions, but I don't think it's necessary.

Because it was her thing and main damage spell for the majority of her lifetime, a symbol for her dualism and until someone gives me a good reason why it was removed in the first place, I think she should have it back.

Main reason I can think of is because it's up to 5 bombs at once tied to shields that make you move fast. Most shields in the game have one unique secondary effect, whether that's bonus ad, healing, damage dealing, MS increases, applying an on-hit effect to AAs, adding bonus defenses, and so on. Karma's would have 2, applied to up to 5 people. It's a bit overloaded.

The recent shieldbomb on Ivern kind of tells me it can not have been that bad of a spell.

Ivern's doesn't give him a boost and doesn't shield 5 people.

SilverSquid4 votes

Because it's either clumsy to land a good hit on later the damage from the increased variance (you just flat run through it to dodge it) or it's insanely oppressive earlier (you can't hide behind minions or tanks to body block it anymore).

You can currently run towards Karma to dodge RQ too (max range explosion and stuff). I would rather it being easier to hit at close range than at max range, to be honest. For it being oppressive; probably as oppressive as Lux E on a longer CD.

Karma's would have 2 [effects], applied to up to 5 people. It's a bit overloaded.

Compared to other shields in the game it is also 2 spells at once tho.... Also the word "overloaded" is overused these days. AoE Shield, speed and damage is already overloaded for 2 spells? It's really hard to make good and interesting kits then, that aren't overloaded....

Ivern's doesn't give him a boost and doesn't shield 5 people.

Same argument here. 2 spells. One of them being a semi-ulti.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Also the word "overloaded" is overused these days. AoE Shield, speed and damage is already overloaded for 2 spells?

Let's not forget Orianna's W being AoE damage, slow and a speed boost.

chipndip11 votes

  • Karma's R -> Q does way more damage than Lux's E, though. The initial hit (when it blows up) has a .9 ratio in and of itself. The main cover for that is that you can hide behind minions, but without that, the move would probably be insufferable in lane and then not as useful later when people have more room and you have mobile opponents to deal with.

  • Karma's R -> W is one spell, not two. Don't change the framing. Damage, a speed up, and a shield is way too much going on for one shielding ability, even as an ult.

SilverSquid2 votes

Karma's R -> W is one spell, not two. Don't change the framing.

If two buttons with two cooldowns shouldn't have more power than a single spell, I don't know what should.

Karma's R -> Q does way more damage than Lux's E, though

It also has a way longer cooldown, requires two of them and it doesn't have to have the same speed/range properties. Besides, if Karma used it you know her emergency heal is down, making her more vulnerable. Any toplaner would figure that out quickly.

then not as useful later when people have more room and you have mobile opponents to deal with.

So the same problem as currently?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

If two buttons with two cooldowns shouldn't have more power than a single spell, I don't know what should.

This isn't a discussion of power more than it's a discussion of functions. R -> E has more power than standard shielding moves. This power doesn't need to be split in too many different directions.

It also has a way longer cooldown, requires two of them and it doesn't have to have the same speed/range properties. Besides, if Karma used it you know her emergency heal is down, making her more vulnerable. Any toplaner would figure that out quickly.

What does this have to do with her supporting? This would be obnoxious in a duo lane is what I'm saying.

To boot, you think top laners want to lane against an R -> Q that can't even be blocked by minions? Just free damage like that? Yeah, the cd's longer, but her other spells and AAs decrease her ult's cd. Can we not play dumb on why this would be a bad idea?

So the same problem as currently?

Yeah, but a bit more so.

SilverSquid3 votes

This isn't a discussion of power more than it's a discussion of functions. R -> E has more power than standard shielding moves. This power doesn't need to be split in too many different directions.

Does not need to? Yeah, but it would fit a dualistic battlemage, right?

What does this have to do with her supporting? This would be obnoxious in a duo lane is what I'm saying.

I am not only talking about her supporting, but all of her. Why would RQ be obnoxious in duo lanes more than anywhere else?

Just free damage like that?

Most toplaners have abilities that can't be dodged. Many have mobility options. RQ is neither "undodgeable" nor "free"

Can we not play dumb on why this would be a bad idea?

Just make your case. I am not playing anything, just explaining my point of view.

Yeah, but a bit more so.

A little less in close range a little more on long range. Exactly what I want.

jocomotion2 votes

Me: karma needs a mini rework Friend: why? Me: her kit is either always frustrating to play against or so weak that there's no point in playing her, and even though she looks ok in game, her kit has the least amount of variety in the game Friend: but she was played in the LCS? Plus just because they needed her doesn't mean she's bad. Me: Like old Leblanc? Friend: . . . Oh. . . . Good point Me: yep.

Fairyfleur1 votes

I love the ability to tether your teammates, but the ally counterpart doesn't seem as impactful as the offensive version. Although, I would add that Soulflare ends upon hitting an enemy champion, not target location.

SilverSquid4 votes

To be a successful battlemage she needs to be able to adress anyone within her range. Not being blocked by the enemy frontline would be one of those things.

The tether should only be that impactful in combination with her shield on top of it. Some 10 extra armor on your ADC early game makes quite the difference (with Windspeakers). Also it protects two people.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

can someone dumb down what the Q does for me i still cant understand?

Leonerdo1 votes

Problems:

  1. Q>W>RE>passive reset>Q>W becomes the only thing you ever want to do in a team fight because of how powerful is when you hit 6-10 people.
  2. RE will never be used outside of a teamfight (i.e. not used as an engage/disengage) because the utility would be nerfed so hard to make room for the damage.
  3. Changing the RQ to ground-targeted AoE actually makes it more artillery-like since it can hit people behind minions, i.e. it's more reliable at range. (Not really a problem, but you said were aiming for the opposite goal).
  4. Also it's more confusing because normal Q is a skillshot.
  5. RW health scaling is mostly a buff to tank-Karma, since she can stay at low health easier when building tank. (Maybe that's not a problem, but I consider tank Karma kinda unhealthy, and already pretty reliant on RW.)
  6. Granting resistances (allied W cast) is very hard to appreciate. It would either seem useless, or be subject to abuse when used on certain allies who benefit the most from extra resistances (RW+E on Olaf could be pretty cheesy, for instance).
  7. The Passive change mostly just makes it less interactive/more reliable, and doesn't change her gameplay at all. I suppose it's a nerf to her as a battlemage or tank, and a buff to her as a support, but I'm not sure if that's a good goal or not.
  8. Just a nitpick, but all of these changes together are not a "quick" fix. Maybe just one of them.

That's a lot of criticism, but I don't want you to think I just hate all of it, because that's not true. I do particularly like the allied W cast; I think it could be interesting on a more back-line version of Karma who can't reach enemies with the root. I dunno if it could ever be better than the root though, when she's played as a battlemage.

My advice is to find a more focused goal or vision, and make sure all the changes improve that one goal (less changes overall as a side-effect). Personally, I think your goal of more a more battlemage/front-line support is most unique. I don't know if she really needs to be more unique though. Sometimes it's okay to have a versatile character rather than a super unique one. (Well, as long as versatile doesn't mean "good at literally everything", because that's the Azir problem.)

SilverSquid4 votes
  1. Q>W>RE>passive reset>Q>W becomes the only thing you ever want to do in a team fight because of how powerful is when you hit 6-10 people.

I mean.... yeah. RE always used to be the teamfight spell. But at least it has a skillcheck now and support Karma could use RW for better single target protection. As I said, this is not perfect, but I suppose it's better than now.

RE will never be used outside of a teamfight (i.e. not used as an engage/disengage) because the utility would be nerfed so hard to make room for the damage.

You are aware that Karma used to have this, right? Just with lower shields and better MS?

Changing the RQ to ground-targeted AoE actually makes it more artillery-like since it can hit people behind minions, i.e. it's more reliable at range. (Not really a problem, but you said were aiming for the opposite goal).

Since it has a travel time it is generally more reliable at close than at distance. If it is still too easy to poke with it, just slow it down a little. Additionally, since the area now spawns where you plan it, not exactly below a person, escaping the second half would be easier at range.

Also it's more confusing because normal Q is a skillshot.

I am convinced people will get used to it quickly

RW health scaling is mostly a buff to tank-Karma, since she can stay at low health easier when building tank. (Maybe that's not a problem, but I consider tank Karma kinda unhealthy, and already pretty reliant on RW.)

It should actually be a nerf to tank Karma, because it does not scale with health anymore. I chose that scaling to make it viable on Mage Karma and weaker on Tank Karma.

Granting resistances (allied W cast) is very hard to appreciate. It would either seem useless, or be subject to abuse when used on certain allies who benefit the most from extra resistances (RW+E on Olaf could be pretty cheesy, for instance).

Agreed. However, I could not come up with something better that is also as easy. As I said, this is a "quick fix", not a perfect solution.

The Passive change mostly just makes it less interactive/more reliable, and doesn't change her gameplay at all. I suppose it's a nerf to her as a battlemage or tank, and a buff to her as a support, but I'm not sure if that's a good goal or not.

It should give Mage Karma options for teamfighting (gameplay?). Mage Karma did get better RW (damage&healing) and a better RE (damage). Support Karma got the passive and ally W.

Just a nitpick, but all of these changes together are not a "quick" fix. Maybe just one of them.

True. It would probably be considered an "update" just as 5.10 was. However, that was done by the Life Update Team as well (or ricklessabandon, to be specific).

My advice is to find a more focused goal or vision, and make sure all the changes improve that one goal

I don't know if you are aware, but Twin Dragon Karma is one of those visions. Maybe you prefer that one, just as I would. But this is trying to find a middle ground.

Sometimes it's okay to have a versatile character rather than a super unique one.

I don't think she would lose versatility. Probably one of the best supports from midlane or best mages that still are a support (compared to Brand, Annie, etc.). Also I am just trying to give Karma back some of the uniqueness she lost. If even Meddler admits she is bland and lacks things not already seen on other champions, I might not be that far off track.

Thank you for your time and detailed criticism! It keeps me challenged and drives me forward!

TricolorStar1 votes

As a Karma main and longtime fine of the sugar mama, I love these ideas but I feel like it has the same problem Zyra had: It'll force Karma into the Support role more than the Mage role.

SilverSquid1 votes

The new RQ, as well as damage on RW and RE should make Mage Karma's damage options both reliable and versatile enough to apply them, compared to how she is now: RQ is her only damage option, it's predictable and unreliable.

If you still feel this would push Karma more towards support I am sorry, I do not intend to. However, it is really hard to judge where those truly push her without testing them.

TricolorStar2 votes

I do love it, though. Even if it does push her to be a supp, these are really cool changes that Karma would benefit from greatly

The Yetii Rider1 votes

So if RE can't be dodged, deals damage to all enemies and shields all allies, why would you ever RQ?

SilverSquid4 votes

Because RQ can deal more damage and does not require champions to be applied. Or because you used E to reposition/survive.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Because RQ can deal more damage and does not require champions to be applied. Or because you used E to reposition/survive.

Seems like a weak argument. RQ would only deal more damage to a single target.

Shieldbomb does too many things. Team shield, which is buffed by shield power and Windspeakers, speed boost, AOE damage with no travel time or missile speed.

Doesn't seem like it could ever be healthy. I'm glad it's gone.

SilverSquid4 votes

RQ would only deal more damage to a single target.

RQ is still an AoE? Besides; yes RE is generally a better teamfighting ability, provided you find the situation to hit enough people.

Shieldbomb does too many things.(...) Doesn't seem like it could ever be healthy. I'm glad it's gone.

It was healthy for almost 2 years with no one complaining. If its power is spread out it means it can only ever be strong if it does all those things at once, which is unrealistic. This means you always need to choose which effect you won't get, which makes this spell so interesting. Yes, it is flexible, but surely not overpowered.

Asura Gonza1 votes

She doesnt need a rework, she needs a crude and destructive nerf to that stupid hadouken of death. Deestroy that shid, kill it with fire

SilverSquid6 votes

I am not a fan of Karma constantly RQ'ing either

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

The issue I can see is making her a jack of all trades (Shields, heals, and damage) would just make her one of the strongest supports. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but then it comes down to "Why play a different support when I could just play Karma?" And I think that's where a lot of the issues with supports come from. There are two distinct types (tanks and mages/spellcasters) as well as the damage mages going bot, but there is a lot of overlap in all of their kits.

SilverSquid3 votes

Her healing is really only an emergency heal, to be honest. Other champions can top your carry off, only gaining twice as much healing on low hp, she gains quadruple healing, making it a complete waste on high health targets (on a long CD!). Besides, she already had weak/unreliable CC and I made it even weaker. I strongly assume this makes her beatable in those two areas.

If you seperate current supports, they usually offer 2 of: protection/CC/damage Champions like Nami & Janna provide CC & protection Champions like Brand & Zyra provide CC & damage Karma could be unique by providing damage & protection

REDREX71 votes

I see people that want to shift karma to a battle mage more instead of a back line mage and I think it is ok but from a design stand point Karma is wearing clothes... she would go poof in a real battle. IF warden Karma was base skin this would be cool. I personally think of Karma as a kite mage. I want Karma to be the kite mage. And I swear I read a post where riot wants to turn Karma into an artillery enchanter which i kinda love. Anyway moving onto your quick fix.

P- I would increase the number to 3 atleast, potentially 4 stacks of gathering fire she can proc per ability or keep it the way it is and just nerf the amount of procs mantra shield can get.

Q - If you guys want to shift karma from a support to mid laner how about potentially increase q range by X amount and scaling to 6.5 to 7.5 at most but nerf base and remove slow. Or nerf base and give karma a short burst of movement speed after hitting an enemy champion with Q. Or potentially give Q two independent cooldowns, one for her right and left hand and have each split the damage of her current Q. (just a bunch of ideas to get the creative juices flowing).

Mantra Q- really weird changes nerf and buff at same time. Sometimes you can use enemy minions to avoid missing mantra Q on a enemy standing near them. But i guess your Mantra Q is more reliable. (My idea would be to nerf the overall damage from mantra Q and spead out her damage to her kit but to compensate remove the second explosion and make it a do over time ability after the first exposion)

W- Why not give W charges but give a cooldown for the how long karma can apply W to an enemy champion again. That way in a teamfight Karma can do both tether and ally and enemy. But the decision is to whether to mantra W ally or enemy. (Also if we changed Mantra Q to a do over time damage ability then this allows the root to change into something else a new ability entirely, as she wont need the root to function.)

E- I really want a offensive component on base E. Especially after the W nerfs on ticks. My idea is when Karma shields herself her next auto does increase magic damage .2 ap. Potentially give it to her shielded target but remove it when she mantra shields.

Mantra E- YAASSS shield bomb back. side note I really want an aoe knock back component on mantra shield so potentially make it to wear if Karma mantra shields herself she gains a small aoe knock back.

SilverSquid4 votes

from a design stand point Karma is wearing clothes

Ryze is shirtless. Karthus and Vlad are wearing clothes. All battlemages. Their magic is protecting them, not their attire...

I personally think of Karma as a kite mage. I want Karma to be the kite mage.

That's not a subclass. But if it makes you happy, her ability to kite is unbroken. Other than that I would rather stick to her roots and general fanbase.

And I swear I read a post where riot wants to turn Karma into an artillery enchanter which i kinda love.

This was the personal opinion of a redname, that he liked lobbing out RQs. And it was generally hit with dismay by the Karma community, because it was a strong missinterpretation of Karma.

I would increase the number to 3 atleast, potentially 4 stacks

Stacks?

Q - If you guys want to shift karma from a support to mid laner

Karma used to be mainly a sololaner for about 6 seasons... Other than that; your ideas are nice but a bit random and surely not a "quick fix".

RQ - My idea would be to nerf the overall damage from mantra Q and spead out her damage to her kit

Damage nerf might be required anyways. But I added damage to all mantra options. Re-added.

W - Why not give W charges but give a cooldown for the how long karma can apply W to an enemy champion again. That way in a teamfight Karma can do both tether and ally and enemy.

This seems to be a theme. I am trying to keep this a really low scale update, not a full blown rework. It's not that I dislike your input, it just isn't quite the time and place for it. Still gonna note them down anyways.

E- My idea is when Karma shields herself her next auto does increase magic damage .2 ap.

Feels obnoxious to lane against. This is nearly the definition of unreturnable damage. I once wrote a rework that would create a small shieldbomb on your next E, if your E broke by damage. This meant that clever and efficient Karmas would get the ability to deal damage. Not perfect either, but maybe something you could like.

Mantra E- I really want an aoe knock back component on mantra shield

I did that in only one rework so far (the one that also reintroduced her fans). The general consensus is that this is not something Karma should do, because it's cutting into Janna's job. I also tend to try and keep the CC low in my reworks and updates, to focus on her damage/protection aspect.

Thanks for your suggestions though. I realize you are only trying to help with your input and my comment probably doesn't highlight this probably, as I misstook your answer as criticism, which confused me. Please feel appreciated though!

TeCoolMage1 votes

I'd rather change the resistances to % damage reduction so it's not useless with tanks

something like 11/12/13/14/15% (+1% per 100 AP)

1 hp per 20 ap is 5%, with 100% missing health that's 20% AP scaling, (40% in total) way too little. Make it 25% AP base and increased by 2% per 1% missing health. at 100% missing health it's a 75% heal (150% total, BUT consider the fact you have to be at 0% health and heal, then be brought to 0% again and proc the root)

does the ally heal increase by his missing health, or Karma's own missing health? (i.e. you give a larger heal if you play risky and don't heal yourself)

SilverSquid5 votes

I'd rather change the resistances to % damage reduction so it's not useless with tanks

I'd personally prefer damage reduction too, but that can go overboard with tanks quickly.

Make it 25% AP base and increased by 2% per 1% missing health.

I don't want Karma to be able to top people off easily, this is supposed to be nothing but an emergency heal. Thus the lower value in general and the quadruple scaling. Outside of that I don't feel comfortable discussing values.

does the ally heal increase by his missing health,

By THEIR missing health. Riot didn't like it how Old Karma was encouraged to run around at low hp and I kinda agree. This is just about healing someone at the right moment.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I thin the only Issue with the Shield-Bomb is that the Niche now belongs to Ivern (Although if you ask me, it's very much wasted), to add it to Karma would destroy uniqueness in Riot's eyes.

SilverSquid3 votes

to add it to Karma would destroy uniqueness in Riot's eyes.

So removing them from Karma (lvl6 abilities, shieldbomb) hasn't been destryoing uniqueness in the first place? And if that is so, I at least want them to admit, that they removed things from her that were fine and thematically rich, or otherwise it makes no sense that they keep salvaging those parts and keep readding them to other champions.

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