Season 8 was the worst jungling year for anybody that didn't play Graves

PapaGreg21·Nov 6, 2018·87 votes·17,693 views

Jungle needs a lot of changes right now. Junglers are always behind in experience in lower ELO, even though RITO is claiming this is the opposite in higher ELO. Once they go through with nerfing experience, every lower ELO game is going to be a joke where junglers are 2-3 levels behind everybody else. I'm a gold 5 jungler and I can't remember a time where I've been higher level than anybody on my team this year.

Jungle diversity stinks. If you don't play Graves, Lee, Kha or Xin you are going to get choked out of succeeding early.

Krugs is still a miserable camp to deal with. It's preferable to skip them right now because of their location and the time commitment they take.

The meta is forcing junglers into interacting heavy into lanes, mostly for LCS ratings. This is causing a lot of frustration for laners because they feel like they are being camped too often, which they are because actually farming jungle is not worthwhile.

Update: Free Sejuani in 2019!

92 Comments

HügöNov 6, 201835 votes

I don't know what riot defines as high elo, but here in diamons junglers are still 1-3 levels down on laners. Sure if the laners gets super fed it's even more, and is the jungler massive fed it is around 1 level higher or just even.

The jungle xp nerf is just for laning crybabys.

PapaGreg21Nov 6, 20183 votes

I know that historically Riot cares very little about below plat and this season it seems to be they care very little below pro play so who knows what they are paying attention to anymore (I certainly don't).

HügöNov 6, 20183 votes

But not even in pro play junglers are ahead in levels of laners.

SithesisLordNov 6, 20186 votes

The jungle xp nerf is just for laning crybabys.

Or people who want to actually get to level 2 before they get ganked by an overleveled jungler at 2 minutes.

TehNACHONov 6, 201820 votes

"overleveled"

...by 1 level.

For that one point in the game.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 201810 votes

That one level matters when the likes of J4, Xin, Camille, etc. have access to their entire "relevant" kit to burn your flash since the lane is going to still be neutral and I personally only have 1 ward I can use. Xin simply LOOKING at mid lane at level 2 burns flashes. Doesn't matter if he does anything because if you DON'T flash then he will and take half your health and burn your flash anyway.

Frosted TipsNov 6, 201813 votes

The best part is that the Jungle exp change made more champions do one camp and gank rather than three camps. Like yeah some Junglers would gank level two back in the day, but most would wait until level three.

TheSingularityNov 7, 201813 votes

This is no different to 7 years ago when red and blue buff would give level 3. Now one needed 4 camps to get level 3.

The issue is now junglers must gank as much as possible because they can't fall back on their jungle for income due to camp respawn times. There is no reason so slow down and farm, because then we fall behind. So GANK GANK GANK! is what riot have forced upon us, and that is what we must do.

Super SandmanneNov 6, 201819 votes

Totally agree. The worst part is that I see daily threads complaining about jungle pressure controlling games and they think that nerfing camp rewards even more will solve the problem.

Every preseason riot makes jungle monsters tougher and less rewarding and nobody can figure out why riot's golden boys become the only picks in their game.

LeftyRaydyNov 6, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xgrAMp7v,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-06T17:32:18.038+0000)

Totally agree. The worst part is that I see daily threads complaining about jungle pressure controlling games and they think that nerfing camp rewards even more will solve the problem.

Every preseason riot makes jungle monsters tougher and less rewarding and nobody can figure out why riot's golden boys become the only picks in their game.

Of course that makes total sense to nerf camp rewards. because it's not like everyone will then pick junglers who are strong at lvl 2 that can gank at level 2. Aggressive junglers are all the rage because of how long it takes to get to level 3-4 as a jungle It would be nice to see other junglers come back into the game other than. Graves Udyr XinZhao Khazix Pantheon

Whats the point of picking any other junglers right now it is so dumb to have a jungler gank you level 2 when you have not even cleared the first wave and are still level 1.

My Waifu VanillaNov 6, 20181 votes

Aggressive junglers see play because camp respawn timers are forever and a half so you HAVE to be able to do something to pass time. It has NOTHING to do with how hard the camps are. Every jungler in the game (including tanks) can full clear and have at least 30-45 seconds of downtime before their first camp comes back up.

LeftyRaydyNov 6, 20183 votes

but this is basically what i mean why you have to pick a strong/aggressive jungler because 1 scuttle changes, 2 camp respawn times. I never said make the jungle harder or camps stronger I am saying make it so the jungle rewards non aggressive junglers instead of invading/aggressive junglers.

My Waifu VanillaNov 8, 20181 votes

And I am going to have to disagree completely with you. I primarily play lanes, and even though I DO get ganked more now, I still prefer this to "win the game before X finishes Feral Flare at 15 minutes and 1v9s". Junglers have the MOST reliable income source in the entire game. The risk/reward for your supply of "passive" gold (jungle creeps) is next to nothing compared to laners "passive" gold (creeps). Therefor, it SHOULD be proportionally less than lanes. If I have to eat a Viktor Q top lane for every other creep I want to last hit then I SHOULD make more gold than my master yi who is just running circles around his jungle uncontested since invading as a whole is huge risk for low reward in anything below like diamond since there is simply never going to be enough vision to make it low risk and some players just take bad routes and you guess wrong which camps are still up (I love being ganked bot lane at like 3:30/4 minutes from the jungler that started on my side of the map and didn't recall).

The days of Feral Flare and Sated Devourer were terrible in solo queue because it put games on way too much of a clock where you had to hope your jungler was either A) not playing an afk farm jungler and could actually win the game while it was 4v5 or B) was also an afk farm jungler and secured dragon first for the 5 stacks. It wasn't fun to win lane and then have the 0/0/0 Shyvana come out of the jungle a level HIGHER than you, two items, and then obliterate you. It also wasn't entirely fun to play with on your team since it meant you yourself didn't exactly matter since all you had to do was not feed and you would get hard carried by the yi who sliced through people in 15 minutes and was totally deserving of everything he got.

LeftyRaydyNov 8, 20181 votes

I am not talking about Feral flare junglers god, plus we have master yi now anyway where its just the same as feral flare era where if its late game and you cant CC him its GG due to the amount of true damage he has now which is worse than the feral flare. I am referring to champs like Amumu and others where they had a delayed start to their strength, but now early jungling is all that matters. I don't want a passive jungler, because if we don't have the jungler ganking lanes by 2:00 minutes into the game you feel handicapped because the enemy jungler is already ganking and killing some lanes. This meta is not so much fun either I mean you can basically lose lane to level 2 gank because you are level 1 to an aggressive jungler, which makes your whole game so much fun.

Feral flare was a late game thing and I dont think anyone wants it back except (udyr, YI, and shy mains), but what I am saying it give more reward in the jungle so it doesnt feel like some games top or mid lane is a 2 v 1 lane.

PoskeNov 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Of course that makes total sense to nerf camp rewards. because it's not like everyone will then pick junglers who are strong at lvl 2 that can gank at level 2. Aggressive junglers are all the rage because of how long it takes to get to level 3-4 as a jungle It would be nice to see other junglers come back into the game other than.

Whats the point of picking any other junglers right now it is so dumb to have a jungler gank you level 2 when you have not even cleared the first wave and are still level 1.

Graves is the only top tier jungler out of those

Udyr is garbage tier Xin is garbage tier Kha zix is good tier worse rengar tbh Pantheon is garbage tier

Idk what game are you playing people

Best junglers in no order are

Eve, Cammile, Kindred, Graves, Taliyah, Rengar

Eve doesnt deserve to exist with her current kit Cammile is the best bruiser in a game and due to her kit shouldnt be allowed to jungle Kindred and Graves are scalling junglers they scale to well Taliyah is the best ap jungler Rengar is the best assassin jungler who can be flexed top (Kha,Kayn aint to far but still)

I would also assume Zac is going under a radar after last buff and max Q

If you nerf the above 6 next best junglers are probably gragas and jarvan

season6clownNov 7, 20183 votes

Xin Garbage Choose one fam

LeftyRaydyNov 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Graves is the only top tier jungler out of those

Udyr is garbage tier Xin is garbage tier Kha zix is good tier worse rengar tbh Pantheon is garbage tier

Idk what game are you playing people

Best junglers in no order are

Eve, Cammile, Kindred, Graves, Taliyah, Rengar

Eve doesnt deserve to exist with her current kit Cammile is the best bruiser in a game and due to her kit shouldnt be allowed to jungle Kindred and Graves are scalling junglers they scale to well Taliyah is the best ap jungler Rengar is the best assassin jungler who can be flexed top (Kha,Kayn aint to far but still)

I would also assume Zac is going under a radar after last buff and max Q

If you nerf the above 6 next best junglers are probably gragas and jarvan

I was specifically talking about early ganking junglers that are threats at level 2. I have been playing games where enemy panth or Xin jungle ganks at level 2 and I am level 1 in mid lane and being camped. my jungle is off doing god knows what. my games have been usually Xin/Panth coming behind me in mid lane either Stun - dash to me If i flash both mid and jungle flash and kill me before the second wave of minions hit.

Eve is disgusting after 6 and you are correct does not deserve to exist in this game. Rengar bush mechanics tilt me but he is not a strong early ganker especially for mid lane. Camille is disgusting in the right hands but at the end of the day if you ward well she is just a squishy target. She is good early Kindred is a scaling jungler, but graves is a good early jungle and scales well which is annoying.

hewhodoesnotcareNov 6, 201813 votes

Riot nerfs jungle xp because of pressure but then proceed to say junglers r in jungle to much so they r nerfing dark harvest lol!!

Leto GTNov 6, 201811 votes

The only way to get actually ahead in levels to get fed early in the game and to have full control on scuttles. It's just gonna gut to oblivion the jungler who is losing.

I QNov 6, 20187 votes

As someone who climbed out of gold in only a month or so, that's simply not true. I spammed over 90 games on Kayn and held a 63% winrate during those 90 games. In gold there is no "being pushed out early because of champion," i've seen Shyvana out gank a xin early in that elo, anything can happen.

Sure, Graves has been GOOD, but he definitely isnt good enough to make every other jungler shit. You didn't bother mentioning Jax, Taliyah, and many other junglers that have had their time to shine.

You yourself have a Shy winrate of 58%+ over 90 or so games, so I don't see the issue. You seem to be having a good time climbing. In a matter of a fact, you HAVEN'T been climbing you rarely play. You're talking about LOW ELO, and GOLD 5, but you aren't talking about ranked games. You have actually mostly played ARAM this year!

PapaGreg21Nov 6, 20186 votes

I don't know how somebody can outgank another player. Are they more successful with their ganks? I would wager the large majority of players are ganking a lot better with Xin than Shyvana. I've seen weird stuff in a lot of my games but I don't generally take those examples as anything more than outliers.

I played 80 percent of my Shyvana games before scuttle meta changed and I quit the champion largely after because she was worthless compared to everybody else after this season's changes. You are cherrypicking data as it is available to you to make your argument better but if you want to go through my games in detail through the course of season 8, I will be welcome to talk to you about it.

If you want to dispute the points I am making in the thread that is fine, but you are attacking myself as a player which is shifting the argument and is tiresome in my opinion.

KirbyCakeNov 6, 20187 votes

Why do junglers expect to be the same level as laners when all they do is gank nonstop and not even clear? That is absolutely ridiculous.

It would be like mid lane not even being in his lane for literally half the game and roaming around and still be the same level as everybody else, that's not how it's supposed to work.

And if you really don't feel like ganking at all you can afk powerfarm and outlevel laners if you really wish. And if you are a competent jungler you can successfully gank to get ahead and out level everybody else anyways.

Almost every high elo player is crying for a jungle nerf, most challenger players are junglers.

The role is so broken to the point where I climbed with jungle even though it is my WORST role. It is an absolutely freelo role.

PapaGreg21Nov 6, 201813 votes

That's just the point. You can't outlevel laners or even stay even with laners through jungle clears. Even afk powerjunglers will get behind laners because of the poor experience levels in camps right now. The reason that jungle feels so powerful is that they have to sit in lane and gank to stay relevant which makes laners think they are controlling the game. There is no incentive for them to do their clears anymore. Try not ganking and clearing camps and see how far you get at level 4-5 compared to everybody else.

Junglers themselves aren't powerful so nerfs to the champions won't solve anything, nor will experience nerfs. There simply needs to be more of a reason for junglers to actually jungle right now.

BestPudgeNANov 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why do junglers expect to be the same level as laners when all they do is gank nonstop and not even clear? That is absolutely ridiculous.

It would be like mid lane not even being in his lane for literally half the game and roaming around and still be the same level as everybody else, that's not how it's supposed to work.

And if you really don't feel like ganking at all you can afk powerfarm and outlevel laners if you really wish. And if you are a competent jungler you can successfully gank to get ahead and out level everybody else anyways.

Almost every high elo player is crying for a jungle nerf, most challenger players are junglers.

The role is so broken to the point where I climbed with jungle even though it is my WORST role. It is an absolutely freelo role.

The junglers that gank non-stop like Xin are constantly behind, unless they're like 10-1-5. If they have a normal score line like 2/2/3 or something they will generally fall behind even the ADC in total XP. The Junglers that get ahead are the power farmers and they don't get ahead till like level 14, they spend the laning phase and midgame 1-2 level down of solo laners. But hey they get ahead by a level in the late game for the 20% of the games that aren't already decided and the extra stats from levels stop mattering as much as items anyways. So i mean JG OP best role right?

GayFluffyUnicornNov 7, 20182 votes

No jungle is the absolute worst role that is why the top ranks of challenger has so many junglers and second role junglers. Because it is the absolute worst role with no impact. Junglers literally deciding worlds games most games. Nono it's not the jungler. Worst role ever by far.

BestPudgeNANov 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No jungle is the absolute worst role that is why the top ranks of challenger has so many junglers and second role junglers. Because it is the absolute worst role with no impact. Junglers literally deciding worlds games most games. Nono it's not the jungler. Worst role ever by far.

There is less then 20 junglers in the top 200 to put this in perspective their is over 50 Top and Mid mains in the top 200 and about 35 ADCs. A role that makes up about 20% of the player bases is under 10% of the top rated players, despite the fact it historically has been a high impact role in solo Q relative to competitive.

At worlds Jungle had like the lowest total gold and lowest damage share of any role other then support in almost every game. The same is true for solo Q in ever elo. You can go look at the Stats tab in game on your profile if you don't believe me. You're literally just saying stuff that's actually not true.

Rock MDNov 6, 20187 votes

You're right, it was only Graves. It's not like

Evelynn Camille Gragas Jax (low elo) Khazix Kindred Nocturne Sejuani (competitive) Taliyah XinZhao

haven't seen extensive play.

Nope.

Just Graves.

Sexy Jack RabbitNov 7, 20181 votes

Evelynn is pretty bad in low elo.

People don't know how to open her up for ganks.

PB4UAMENov 7, 20181 votes

Sej, extensive play, in season 8?

You sure you're not talking Season 7 and preseason?

She's been the worst jungler most of the season.

Oakleaf RangerNov 7, 20181 votes

I don't watch pro play much. But almost every time I tune in or watch a vid I swear I see a fucking gragas.

And whenever the camera tunes in on him I get the sweet joy of watching him use his huge gut to run away or hit someone.

Clapper of AssesNov 6, 20187 votes

My favorite Jungle season was 5, there was so much diversity almost every champ could jungle due to https://i.imgflip.com/2lvtau.jpg The jungle buffs were also cool like i think krugs gave you a stun on auto to monsters, and wolf or chickens gave an orb that kept vision on your jungle

Maligaro SpikeNov 6, 20183 votes

My favourite jungle was season 4 instead, literally everyone could jungle cause monsters would deal so little damage

Clapper of AssesNov 6, 20182 votes

Yeah season 4 wasn't bad either, i think it started to get bad after 5

SeleenaNov 6, 20186 votes

I think you meant to say... for anybody that didn't play graves, noc, khazix or taliyah.

ModAcademy KaynNov 6, 20186 votes

Not really. If you keep up with clearing your jungle, you'll be just as leveled as your laners for the most part. When you gank, it's the equivalent of roaming, and the pay off is great enough (Farm and a Kill) that it should be at the cost of some of your personal EXP if you mess up or the opponent escapes.

I've seen plenty more junglers than Kha, Lee, Graves or Xin in most my games.

Edit: No reason saying why you think he's wrong. He's clearly not interested in anything but circlejerking his point. Don't even bother commenting.

PapaGreg21Nov 6, 20182 votes

ModAcademy KaynNov 6, 20183 votes

Alright, got an actual argument? Or is this just gonna be a circle jerk? Cause this is what a circle jerk is. No actual arguments, no discussion.

PapaGreg21Nov 6, 20182 votes

Nah.

PB4UAMENov 7, 20181 votes

You're replies are literally worse than useless or you not bothering to post. They are actively working against your narrative, your flimsy and frankly almost entirely bullshit "point," and they certainly do not reflect well on you, yourself.

Perhaps, in the future, consider not posting threads and comments to a discussion board if you clearly aren't at all interested in any sort of actual discussion whatsofuckingever.

PapaGreg21Nov 8, 20181 votes

Meh

NY64Nov 6, 20185 votes

Interesting to hear this perspective from a Jungler since I don’t play jungle much but I think there is something else you missed that doesn’t just effect junglers.

Season 8 was not just horrible for those who didn’t play the meta junglers like Graves or Kha Zix. Season 8 was terrible for those who didn’t play or are good with the meta champions of any role.

If you play ADC and don’t choose Lucian, Draven, Kai sa and the few other op ADC’s you are screwed

If play support and don’t choose an aggressive champion like Pyke, Brand, or Alistar you are screwed.

It sucks that people have to play the champions that are meta rather than playing the champs people want to play. Isn’t the purpose of a game to be fun, not be forced to do something you don’t want to do?

charge attackNov 7, 20183 votes

This is such a stupid post. Nothing in low elo stops you from pathing/farming well.

Also Krugs are THE MOST IMPORTANT camp right now - and it’s agreed upon by most high elo jungles. Maybe if you stop skipping it you’ll stop being useless.

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐNov 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xgrAMp7v,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2018-11-07T18:09:50.315+0000)

This is such a stupid post. Nothing in low elo stops you from pathing/farming well.

Also Krugs are THE MOST IMPORTANT camp right now - and it’s agreed upon by most high elo jungles. Maybe if you stop skipping it you’ll stop being useless.

1000% agree with you.

ThefrostyvikingNov 7, 20183 votes

OP instead of complaining along the lines of "riot plx jungle too difficult f me" ......why dont you try to learn how to do it instead?

I´ve been playing it a lot recently and i actually succeeded a fair bit on Shyvana......sure i did fail at times but i´d like to account that to myself not really being a jungle main.

As long as people didnt get hella fed i could easily keep up in levels and sometimes i even had the most gold even after 8 minutes.

This while playing Shyvana.

Just today i played a normal, got matched into a master/challenger kha6 and i actually won that game.......and i was still on shyvana´.

Did he overall perform better early? He did.

Did i manage to intercept and screw his teamfighting up? I did, which won the game because my Draven was fed^^

DeusVultNov 6, 20182 votes

What if Krugs didnt take so much time to break apart, so that when you killed one you could start working on taking down the lesser one.

BisaknospNov 7, 20182 votes

then your pathing sucks i guess there have been too many games where i or others as junglers where 2 or more lvls ahead of everyone else

FNC 6ixGODNov 7, 20182 votes

Update: Free Sejuani in 2019!

Totally agree!

Violent HunterNov 7, 20182 votes

No. Jungle has been the most important role or at least top 3 all season. The entire season. No other role can say that. Deal with it

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐNov 7, 20182 votes

Krugs is still a miserable camp to deal with. It's preferable to skip them right now because of their location and the time commitment they take.

Krugs are literally the best camp in the game. What the hell man!? XDDDDDDDDDD

Common SatyrNov 8, 20181 votes

The only problem with the jungle atm is lvl 2 ganks. more and more A red buffed lvl 2 junglers gets to lane about the same time as I do in bot. At which point is is hard to ward since you only get 1 and you need the side brush warded. Id say nerf early game xp and buff later game xp in jungle and tie it to the jungle item so other lanes cant abuse it.