@Meddler please don't buff Kassadin's basic abilities.

thinking man · 2015-03-02T22:21:35.283Z

I was linked a totally out of context screenshot of a post with you saying that Kass is getting buffs so I'm believing it and I'd just like to say that you really shouldn't buff his basic abilities. Aside from the fact that I, as a Kass player, am very attached to his ult being powerful, compensation buffs to anything other than his ult will only serve to lower his skillcap, and compensation buffs to his ult without the range will be largely ineffective. If you remove the reliance on landing his ult, you are effectively just solidifying it as a purposeless blink which he uses only to get around and beat people up. If he is able to kill somebody effortlessly with his EAAWQ then he is a problem. Landing his ult, although not particularly difficult, should be a key part to playing Kass. His Q/E should probably be a relatively low amount of his damage since they are ranged. He should be forced into melee if you guys insist on keeping his burst patterns, and a buff to anything other than his ult won't help with that. As for buffing the damage of his ult, that won't really help because he won't have to range to get to it. If you guys are REALLY intent on giving him some more power but keeping him nerfed, I propose giving him back his ult range and then nerfing his Q or E damage. If he needs compensation, buff his W/R, because they are the healthiest parts of his kit for applying damage even if they have the most power budget of his kit. I think the final solution is to make him into a DPS champion, probably through his W/R (think of his ult as being used to move into range for his W and then using the stacking effect to slowly ramp up his DPS) and then his Q should definitely be changed into something else while his E can probably stay the same. The combination of Q/E being a large part of his burst makes him a bit faceroll though.

NagirahMar 3, 201512 votes

How about increasing it's range as you level it up?

Sniff My FistMar 3, 20154 votes

Why not let it charge up like a Varus Q? The longer he channels it, the longer distance he can teleport.

thinking manMar 3, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sniff My Fist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xfdV8oHB,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-03T21:21:34.991+0000)

Why not let it charge up like a Varus Q? The longer he channels it, the longer distance he can teleport.

Changes the type of the ability too much in my opinion.

It should be a blink and his kit should be balanced around it.

NerdFailMar 3, 20151 votes

I think what the person meant to say is that have it be a set range, and then give them the ability to charge it for a longer distance blink. So for example, if they simply tap the ult, then it'll be blink the default 450 units or w/e, but if they charge it up, then it will blink further away

thinking manMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think what the person meant to say is that have it be a set range, and then give them the ability to charge it for a longer distance blink. So for example, if they simply tap the ult, then it'll be blink the default 450 units or w/e, but if they charge it up, then it will blink further away

I understand exactly what they meant to say, I just don't like the mechanic existing on his R.

Wanganat0rMar 3, 20153 votes

Expand on this: How about having the range increase based on successive rift walks? That goes along with his mana cost? e.g. 1st riftwalk, 100 mana 450 range, 2nd 200 mana @ 500 range, and so on with a cap at 4.

This way when in fights, players will have to choose to go all in using the 3rd or 4th stack, kiilling the target but having no more mana to escape, or fall short of the target. This can also be circumvented with good positioning, if you get a positional advantage and flank the target, you can get your combo off, kill the target and still escape.

hakannakahMar 3, 20152 votes

I have an interesting idea. What if instead of dealing extra damage with each stack and staying the same range it it got weaker?

My idea is this:

At all ranks of his ultimate, the initial range is the original 700 and does the most damage. But with each time he uses it, Riftwalk not only decreases in range, but also in damage? This way, players are forced into the decision:

Do I keep it "fresh" for max range and damage? Or do I use to it to clear this wave or simply roam/ jump around faster?

Of course the mana cost would also increase and the numbers would have to tuned, but I think this forces more interesting decisions in using Riftwalk. It would reward the Kassadins that hold onto rift walk for the right moment/ kill, rather than just willy nilly flitting around the edge of a team right or wave clear.

P.S.: This is related to Varus as an aside, but what do you think of the idea of Qs cool down resetting upon champion kill? I think it would fit his theme of killing stuff and getting benefits. I mean how many other characters have a resetting damage move? Just think of it like in those movies where the archer character (orlando bloom i guess) is just firing arrows rapid fire and killing targets, "headshot" style. I don't think it would push him over the edge, it would just better fit his position as a carry that kills things (making his passive more useful). It would make him feel better because currently if you score a long range kill with Q, his attack speed buff isn't all that useful for skirmishes.

TDS KentoXIIMar 3, 20151 votes

I would do the opposite thing, range increased by every stack, what means that he has to spend tons of mana if he wants to get longer jumps, while he has to remain a bit closer to the fight if he wants to not use mana. just IMO.

DyonasMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

What about mana costs? What sort of range are you considering? I'd consider 550 - 600 probably the best compromise but there are so many ideas floating around that never get considered or acknowledged that would allow 700 range.

HellordMar 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

Can we have some context of what part of the game is gonna be buffed/nerfed?

**Early game (pre lvl6) ** Considering he is a late game champion the early game is fine, there are some bully champions that will force you at turret but latest rework fixed this.

Mid Game (>lvl6 up until fully stacked ROA/ArchStaff + another item) This is where only a snowballing Kass keep up. The issue is that without snowball the damage is not very high and with 450 range ult bully champions will continue to keep you unfarmed so delaying your late game even more.

Late Game (in the current state) Ult cd is far too low, slow % is far too high even with 1s duration, damage is high even from range, but in any teamfight which isn't already won there is no chance to go over the frontline and there are too many opportunities to be kited without getting in range for anything but Q.

So lowering the CD in the mid game isn't going to do any good, in fact it is the biggest issue. The CD at low ranks is fine, it was fine even before rework. It's the 2s cd in the late game that is a problem (jump in QW zhonya, jump out since cd is up again) and the mana cost of the 4rth stack if you couldn't land a W (which is fine since it opens up counterplays). But with current range there is no way you can jump the front line, nor get back.

I think the biggest issues that forced you to nerf riftwalk into oblivion is because you reduced the CD too much. With late game damage you are able to jump in, oneshot with 3 skills, zhonya to avoid any cc/damage and then jump out. I definetly preferred having to jump onto somebody to get back mana, this would simply remove the problem of being an aoe snare initiator that can avoid every damage with a zhonya.

My ideas are raise Riftwalk CD to 5-6s at all levels, cdr will lower it a bit in the late game, 600 range at least, 100 mana cost x rank x 3 with a refund when landing on a champion. Reduce the slow to 70% 1.5s duration and raise it's base damage reducing the scaling (so it will be better mid game and less bursty late game).

I'm not sure why you think that reducing the cd AND increasing the range at early ranks is going to fix anything. In fact it's the culprit of the problem cause of which you had to nerf riftwalk so hard.

SaintshingMar 3, 20151 votes

I feel like kass's "problem" is not his mobility nor his damage. in fact, I think leblanc has much higher damage/assassination potential with about the same level of mobility(kass's mobility is much more constrained by his stacks and he rarely can one-shot someone without 2 items+lichbane).

What makes kass so good is his mobilitiy combined with his huge aoe low cd high % slow. This enables him to set up fights by initiating with a teamwise slow, clean up teamfights by providing chasing power or disengage when the fight is not in your team's favor.

I dont think you should give a super mobile champion one of the best slow in the game. Basically you cant run away from him and you cant chase him.

thinking manMar 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

That could be problematic in certain mage matchups if he can blink often and his blink range is on-par with AA range so be careful.

He can play incredibly aggro in a large number of mage matchups if he wards adequately so be really careful about giving him too much ult CD at lower ranks because if the ult range is increased to match approximate AA range of champions, he's going to oppress some mages harder than the patriarchy.

I still firmly believe that his problem is a problem with his Q, however, and I advise you guys to look at changing his Q since it's got a large amount of laning power while the shield is near-useless late-game.

gloomyMoronMar 3, 20153 votes

Kassadin is supposed to be an anti-mage. He is supposed to do those things somewhat reliably. The problem comes when he goes from anti-mage to anti-carry assassin. They need to find the balance between his Ult Range and damage and mana costs/damage on other abilities.

Knight SoIaire Mar 3, 20153 votes

well but at the same time he cant be one trick pony that can only invalidate mages while being rekt by everything else

its a problem already represented by kalista where anything that uses skillshots or is immobile gets rekt by her with no chances at fighting her while anything point and click based wrecks her like she doesnt even exist

and im preety sure that you already know how toxic can it be

that is why i would rather see kassadin as an assasin who just has some bonuses vs mages, than an anti mage

doublelift fgMar 3, 20153 votes

this is retarded, just revert him before 5.4 he didn't need ay nerfs god.

TENTACLELUVRMar 3, 20151 votes

Sounds like a bad idea honestly, this will just bring back the stupid reliable AP Kassadin burst mage.

FlemmanMar 3, 20151 votes

as long as you don't make like ap nidalee (nerf the problem, buff other aspect, then bring back the problem while leaving the compensating buff untouched :p)

TacoPunchMar 3, 20151 votes

Ult range increase as he progresses in level. There is your fix. Jesus christ.

Th3BegginingMar 3, 20151 votes

Kassadin go is better than its ultimate winning range, level 6, 11, 16 that is, that is less than the first levels and increased at high levels later.

HollowLuffySamaMar 3, 20151 votes

how about giving kass's ult the same treatment as tristana passive except its for kass ult in specific, but on a minor scale versus tristanas passive towards her aa

Divinicus1stMar 3, 20152 votes

Just a quick note, by reducing his ult range by 36%, you reduced the potential area/the disc area where it can be launch by 59%.

My guess is you meant to reduce it's area of effect (a.k.a. area of threat and escape) by 36%, but messed up between radius and area?

Ps: I'm not saying you screwed up the math, but I think you didn't realize the area of effect is more important to look at than the range. It's all about potential (potential threat area and potential escape area). It's really straightforward for a champ like Kassadin.

AndalusianMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

How about increasing it's range in increments alongside it's damage and mana cost, the more Riftwalk stacks you have. So that way, the player will need to take that into account when he uses his ult. You can also slightly increase the base mana costs so it will be hard to abuse.

OR

Riftwalk can have a short cast time where it can be interrupted with roots/stuns. The "cast" time can be him fading into the void, getting ready to Riftwalk! would be a cool visual effect!

OR

It could be a combination of both!

thornbelloMar 3, 20152 votes

Try making Kassadins R work like Vi's Q.So he doesn't have a insta-escape or insta-engage. Also try for Kassadin to be a squsihy assasin rather then a tanky-mage.

NΣQMar 3, 20152 votes

Kassadin player here. I think ideas like "scale range with level", "lower CD on lower levels", will make him opressive, and unkillable again. What about giving him his silence back? Are u considered it? Now - when the range is drastically reduced, just duration AoE silence on ult could work.

ilabbMar 3, 20151 votes

Lower CD won't mean diddly if you insist on the punishing stacking mana cost and the duration in which stacks stay up, especially early game. Frankly I don't think that Kassadin players would mind a 10/7/4 cooldown if it meant each riftwalk felt more impactful and not an expensive Ezreal E. Personally I'd like to know what the problem is with its old 700 range is from your perspective. Here's a controversial idea. Make his R a flat cost plus a percentage of his total mana. He won't be pidgeonholed into the mandatory RoA and/or tear rush and can prioritize his assassin life instead of bulky anti-mage assassin life. Of course if you do this I'd recommend a net decrease of mana used per stack since there's no way to build around it. Encouraging him to rush a Deathcap over a RoA will make him burstier but also much more open to being burst right back. He'd basically operate like a Leblanc that doesn't have as broken of a "get out of a bad decision free" button (reactivated Distortion).

As far as reworking his kit goes, I had a few ideas.

Have you guys considered reworking his passive so that he's less anti-mage (so that way he won't be either OP or underwhelming depending on what's popular with the meta) and making him more typical assassin? Say you remove his free 15% damage reduction from magic damage and give him something fair as a passive instead, change his shield from magic damage to all damage but lower the shield amount, but make it proc the shield when it lands and not when Q is cast. Lower the projectile speed too for all I care. This would encourage getting close to your opponent when you trade since the travel speed and shield timing would be way less relevant. You could even make his shield bigger depending on how close he is to his target. Really, my point is that a Brand player shouldn't feel hopeless against him, but Kassadin shouldn't feel hopeless against a good Zed or Talon. The idea of an anti-mage is more toxic than the mobility in my opinion, especially when it is coming from another mage.

It just seems that you guys have no idea what you really want him to be. Should he be a bulky anti-mage? Assassin? Mobile monstrosity? He can't be all of that.

Basically, I bought and played Kassadin back in 2012 because I saw some youtube videos of him being a jumpy asshole and that appealed to me way more than anything else. I don't care if he's not bulky, I just wanna be able to traverse Summoner's Rift in a straight line. That was the coolest part about him.

Duke AnaxMar 3, 20151 votes

Have you thought about keeping it shorter range but lowering the mana increase a bit, like from double to 1.8 or something?

CIoudCarryMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

So, what's gonna stop people from putting 1 point in their ultimate until late game?

IdennMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We're currently testing buffs to his R involving increasing its range and, at ranks 1 and 2, giving it a lower CD (so while it's not going as far as pre 5.4 still he's able to use it more often ). Not guaranteed that'll be the path we take, that's current thinking though.

Seriously, If you want to balance kassadin, give him a mana cost on his ult that scales with AP. This will prevent him from going full retard burst AP assassin kassadin and still having rediculous mobility. Even with a 1-1 ratio, if he chooses to go full AP (like 800ish) it will cost him 800 mana per ult giving him limited uses. The troll mobility kassadins can still keep their fun champion, they just can't 1 shot people while doing it.

ExecutorDillMar 3, 20151 votes

What about buffing Shen !

XhaderMar 4, 20151 votes

One big problem with his kit is the safety Q provides while doing high damage. *It's low risk, high reward. *

I'm in favor of some sort of system that changes his (uninteractive) passive to some system akin to Taric's W, charging a MR shield from casting/being hit by spells/time out of combat/etc, similar to Kass' E. Casting Q expends the the shield as extra damage, making him vulnerable to counter attack. Or you could play it safe & keep your shield up, but have to forego the poke.

As a mobile champ, he's also got generically high base MS. He should have garbage MS (he can hardly breathe after all) and have nearly all of his mobility on his ult. Not giving him the back up plan of just running away if his ult is down would give some more counterplay & keep him from outpacing other champs if they REALLY want to chase. After 4 ults, he may be far away, but he'll have 12 sec of downtime for enemies to catch up to him.

Another change I read that sounds cool is to have his R reduce by ~50 units per stack to tax spamming, which would give even more room to punish bad positioning. It'd also take his map presence down a notch.

tldr:

More interactive Passive
Q should require some meaningful choice between offense OR defense.
Exclusive reliance on R for mobility
Increased R (maybe W) damage, at the expense of QE damage.

@Meddler please don't buff Kassadin's basic abilities.

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