How to balance Kalista without nerfing her passive:

thinking man·Feb 22, 2015·90 votes·5,323 views

AA range 550 -> 500 (not entirely necessary) as some have expressed, range might be too much but the E/R are pretty necessary to just make her not a complete bitch to play against

Rend is now capped at 10 against monsters

Kalista may no longer recall the Oathsworn to her if the Oathsworn is affected by any CC that would prevent them from normally casting mobility spells (stun, suppress, silence, snare)

The AA range reduction is just for a baseline thing since Lucian had it happen to him when he became a ranged AD Kassadin, Rend is to keep her from outsmiting a Nunu, and the third change is just because if I decide to focus the support instead of Kalista, I shouldn't have her just dragged away to safety even if I CC them. It adds counterplay.

104 Comments

SmokinSickStyleFeb 22, 201531 votes

Also, add the option to refuse being Kalista's b!tch, that's quite annoying being able to be bound to her without you not being able to do anything about it, especailly when random Kalistas remove me from my position without my consent.

thinking manFeb 22, 201521 votes

{quoted}

Also, add the option to refuse being Kalista's b!tch, that's quite annoying being able to be bound to her without you not being able to do anything about it, especailly when random Kalistas remove me from my position without my consent.

The way you worded that makes it sound like rape tbh

MarhsallLee67Feb 22, 20155 votes

It kind of is, though- your life is ruined because of something that you had no say in whether or not it happened.

The Red WardenFeb 22, 20157 votes

While she is forcibly inserting a pointy object connected to a shaft.

ZmuecatFeb 22, 20154 votes

She needs to be redesigned then, and in my opinion, the Oathsworn thing should have been a support function.

Kobila2000Feb 22, 20151 votes

That would make the ability useless in the laning phase.

thinking manFeb 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That would make the ability useless in the laning phase.

Imagine if Thresh lantern was usable through CC.

That's essentially what Kalista's ult is.

It is okay if you grab them, but you should have to use foresight instead of grabbing them as soon as they blow their CC.

Kobila2000Feb 22, 20155 votes

Oh, I definitively agree with that, as well as the fact that Kalista's passive could only be thought of by some sick, sick individual whose heart got very hurt by a melee champion once.

vanilla chaiFeb 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Also, add the option to refuse being Kalista's b!tch, that's quite annoying being able to be bound to her without you not being able to do anything about it, especailly when random Kalistas remove me from my position without my consent.

The ult might be annoying, but her W passive or whatever helps a ton in lane to poke.. especially because early her AA's are slow and can be out pushed by someone like jinx before your first back, so having a oathsworn with you in lane early seems needed to me. Minion clear + Poke.

As Kalista I could say I saved my supports life many many times when they go in without looking at the map or pings that a jungler is near and they thank me and have 10 hp left (or they go in and the rest of our team doesn't go in with, then I save their ass). I only ult my support if they're slightly behind me and can't engage from there but we're both chasing the enemy.

Example: My leona is behind me and we're trying to get enemy lucian, I ult her so she can get closer and ult lucian..

Bad kalista's will ult when their support is already close and doing stuff n things, when they should only be ulted at low health (to help) or to initiate/engage imo. Never had someone complain to me about ulting them.

ALSO: if you actually don't want to go in at all yet they ult you, you have the choice whether you want to go in or say fk no and go as far as possible, hopefully on the other side of a wall!

DecaedeusFeb 22, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's not the problem. The problem is when you're being invaded and she decides to bind you at that very moment for the lolz.

vanilla chaiFeb 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's not the problem. The problem is when you're being invaded and she decides to bind you at that very moment for the lolz.

I guess, but that's a bad Kalista :/ I don't often see them intentionally doing stuff like that unless you were constantly being an asshole to them at the start.

My point though, if there was an option to decline her bind, it'd fk over Kalista's early game potential. Because even with an oathsworn early, she still struggles pushing the lane against a jinx, lucian, or sivir since she doesn't have her attk speed yet..so not having that W passive with your support, she'll lose poke dmg and push, and if you are the support but didn't oathsworn, have fun with a chance of a struggling lane/potentially losing lane or the enemy getting away with 20hp which would've been dead with Kalista's W passive oathsworn thing.

It's supposed to be teamwork on both your sides, but if she's pulling you into bad shit, go help someone else and stay out of Kalista's R range..until a team fight happens then it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

maikokkFeb 22, 20151 votes

how else is kalista going to steal red buff from a greedy jungler?... ohright, rend

qetzelFeb 22, 201513 votes

The rend cap on monsters is needed, the ultimate nerf is good.

A range nerf is big though. Very big. I would try the first two nerfs for about two patches before considering dropping her range to 525. If the problem isn't solved a few patches later, then lower the range further, although I doubt it will be needed.

thinking manFeb 22, 201513 votes

{quoted}

The rend cap on monsters is needed, the ultimate nerf is good.

A range nerf is big though. Very big. I would try the first two nerfs for about two patches before considering dropping her range to 525. If the problem isn't solved a few patches later, then lower the range further, although I doubt it will be needed.

The range nerf is for the fact that the only other ADC who managed to be on-par with her hypermobility was Lucian after the mini-rework, and it's only a nerf against ranged champions, which, in my opinion, should be a weakness since she's so powerful against melee.

qetzelFeb 22, 20156 votes

My opinions on this matter is as follows: Once Kalista starts attacking, she is uncatchable by an immobile melee champion. This implys that lowering Kalista's range will do little to counter in combat frustration against her. It will only weaken her laning phase (which isn't much of a problem at the moment).

Furthermore, according to the lolwiki, "The forward dash appears to have comparable range to Quickdraw". This comes with a standard cast time. The adcs with 500 range are Lucian (for a very smooth, longer ranged dash along with relatively high poke and burst for an adc), Kog'Maw (Ah Koggles, massive range with W and his ultimate) and Sivir (Incredible poke and a teamwide speed boost). Compared to these champions, Kalista with 500 range would not have the tools required to effectively trade in lane. Given my previous point (that a lower range wouldn't affect the in fight problems), I do not believe that a nerf to 500 range is a good idea.

Looking at the 525 range champions for comparison, you get Graves and Jinx (and also Quinn, but I don't count her as an adc...). Jinx increases her range massively with Fishbones, and Graves has absurd burst. Kalista will be at a serious disadvantage in lane with even 525 range.

tl;dr: consider that lowering Kalista's range will do little to counter in combat frustration and consider how the range will affect her elsewhere (specificallt during the laning phase).

Baron of BreadFeb 22, 20152 votes

I think it would help with in combat frustration because there is less distance to cover to get to her. Yes, some people will still get kited endlessly, but with less range you need less of a gap closer to get to her between hops. Once you are on her you can hopefully stick, but it she should still be a difficult catch.

The LexerFeb 22, 20151 votes

I would actually do it the other way around. Drop the range, then see what happens.

The LexerFeb 22, 20153 votes

One more thought: Kalista can't use her passive to go through walls

OrangesilkFeb 23, 20151 votes

Sivir has a 500 range, because "Her passive grants her too much mobility to be balanced without a range reduction".

qetzelFeb 23, 20151 votes

I thought it was the ultimate and the fairly damaging, long ranged poke, but there you go.

OrangesilkFeb 24, 20151 votes

Nah, those are balanced by the lack of damage steroid and insanely restrictive mana costs, respectively.

qetzelFeb 24, 20151 votes

She gets a short, but sizable attack speed bonus on Ricochet (which could, in itself, count as a damage steroid depending on how the term is defined) and her mana problems are alleviated by good use of her spell shield.

ZazushaFeb 22, 20155 votes

i'd say even lower Atk range, Like maybe Urgot style, but anything is better then what she currently has.

And maybe Max10 rend on minions too?

thinking manFeb 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

i'd say even lower Atk range, Like maybe Urgot style, but anything is better then what she currently has.

And maybe Max10 rend on minions too?

Minions don't matter since they won't live long enough for more than 2-3 Rend stacks.

She doesn't need to be Urgot-levels of shitty range because no ADC should have range on-par with what is supposed to be a short-ranged bruiser.

They could hit her attack speed, but anything less than even 500 attack range feels terrible on an ADC.

DeusVultFeb 22, 20155 votes

Honestly i'm fine with giving her 475 range and disabling blitz/thresh from getting ulted while they are pulling people

LeeDarkFeb 22, 20156 votes

Yes, because the one cool, fun interaction that is part of the ult is the part we should focus on nerfing. All the other supports being untouchable because she'll just save them isn't the problem, no, it's JUST BLITZ AND THRESH, clearly, that we should be concerned about.

AnduragaFeb 22, 20153 votes

Just make it to where her passive jump distance is based off movespeed. So if she's slowed, she doesn't jump as far. Easy fix.

The Y2J ProblemFeb 22, 20152 votes

In terms of Rend being used against monsters, I think adding in a "Deals XX% damage to monsters" would work, or something like that

thinking manFeb 22, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Italian Ice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AO3QZqwT,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-22T03:21:11.630+0000)

In terms of Rend being used against monsters, I think adding in a "Deals XX% damage to monsters" would work, or something like that

I think just capping it is better.

You can have a high damage nuke but it should never be able to even outdamage smite.

It'll also scale up faster if you just cap it so comparing the two changes, capping it at 10 would win out until you got a crazy amount of stacks on it.

straight4freeFeb 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I think just capping it is better.

You can have a high damage nuke but it should never be able to even outdamage smite.

It'll also scale up faster if you just cap it so comparing the two changes, capping it at 10 would win out until you got a crazy amount of stacks on it.

Cho and Nunu can outdamage smite. Should those be nerfed as well? The argument isn't strong.

Cosmic WarperFeb 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Cho and Nunu can outdamage smite. Should those be nerfed as well? The argument isn't strong.

Those are junglers/top laners. An ADC shouldn't be able to beat out smite by several folds of damage, especially when they can use said ability from a large distance away, while nunu and chogath need to be in melee range for their abilities to work, therefore making them super telegraphed in their pseudo-smites.

thinking manFeb 22, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Cho and Nunu can outdamage smite. Should those be nerfed as well? The argument isn't strong.

Nunu can not outdamage a level 18 smite.

Cho is an exception where he needs to be AP.

This is an accepted niche.

Not only can Kalista outdamage a smite, she outdamages it by a margin so large that sometimes a Nunu with smite cannot outdamage a Kalista without smite.

There is no reason why an ADC should be so good at securing a dragon.

SquarefighterFeb 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Cho and Nunu can outdamage smite. Should those be nerfed as well? The argument isn't strong.

I've been saying this. But no one cares because they aren't a popular champs to complain about.

rinsujoFeb 23, 20151 votes

Smite caps at 1k true damage to monsters, instantaneously. Nunu's consume caps at 1k damage to monsters. (has a cast time) Cho's feast caps at 1k damage to monsters. (has a cast time)

SquarefighterFeb 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Smite caps at 1k true damage to monsters, instantaneously. Nunu's consume caps at 1k damage to monsters. (has a cast time) Cho's feast caps at 1k damage to monsters. (has a cast time)

Well nunu and cho can just flash in and chomp whereas kalista has to be smacking baron for at the very least ten seconds. All three examples are known for their strong objective control, but kalista controls in a different way.

rinsujoFeb 24, 20151 votes

I was arguing that Cho and Nunu COULDN'T outdamage smite, but I think capping Kalista's rend damage to monsters at 1k would be a pretty good solution.

SquarefighterFeb 25, 20151 votes

That might be good. I don't want the thing gutted but giving the enemy a fighting chance is a good idea.

X FradyFeb 22, 20152 votes

The range and Rend limits I agree. Her ult being useless if the Oathsworn is CC'd is overkill. If Rito decides to let Rend limitless, I dare to say thet they either increase the cooldown, or remove the reset for every kill, compensating with a reduced cooldown.

Nox FleuretFeb 22, 20152 votes

[deleted]

thinking manFeb 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Disagree to all except AA range nerf

The E and R are way more unfair than the AA range and if any of the three should go through, those two would be best.

Slamurai JackFeb 22, 20152 votes

The first area I would target is the W. If she a support that can consistently proc it, like nami, janna, or annie, Kalista and her support outtrade everyone in bot lane 100% of the time, just like Braum did on release. 12% max health damage on a rank 1 ability is just too much.

KingsgraveFeb 22, 20151 votes

Kalista would need compensation for all of these honestly. As much as I hate her, you can't just nerf like 4 things about a champion without buffing them in return. Lucian received several buffs when his range was reduced.

Daedalus871Feb 22, 20155 votes

Ok, how about we give Kalista a dash on every AA that upgrades with boots.

And since I'm feeling really nice, let's let it happen on her Q as well.

thinking manFeb 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Kalista would need compensation for all of these honestly. As much as I hate her, you can't just nerf like 4 things about a champion without buffing them in return. Lucian received several buffs when his range was reduced.

The ult and E changes need to happen most since of all of the things in her kit that are stupid as fuck to play against, those two are the easiest to nerf.

HandheldBrandonFeb 22, 20151 votes

I have no Idea why people struggle against Kalista. Her early game is one of the worst out there and her auto attack Animation early is so bad.

Late game sure the passive is annoying but its not so bad as everyone makes it out to be especially if you shut her down hard early.

Slamurai JackFeb 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I have no Idea why people struggle against Kalista. Her early game is one of the worst out there and her auto attack Animation early is so bad.

Late game sure the passive is annoying but its not so bad as everyone makes it out to be especially if you shut her down hard early.

Kalista's early game strength is determined almost entirely by her support. If she has a support that can reliably proc her W passive, she outtrades everyone. If she doesn't her early game is complete garbage because she just doesn't have the burst from W to trade with. I've played lanes with Leona and Graves vs. Kalista and Janna and I swear to god, we were getting wrecked in trades. We even baited out the shield and then focused the other person, but it didnt matter. Being able to chunk 12% max health from 2 people each trade is insane.

YoungFarmerFeb 22, 20151 votes

Her passive is one of the most broken things about her lets be honest. Kites for days

thinking manFeb 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her passive is one of the most broken things about her lets be honest. Kites for days

It's also the first thing you think of when picking her.

You cannot just gut the identity of a champion even if that identity is cancer. Her kit just so happens to have a lot of fluff that is very easy to nerf.