Instead of buffing darius, leaving tank items to shit, why dont you nerf toxic ass tanks like chogat

Tychusfindlay918·Sep 28, 2018·25 votes·10,474 views

Legit the only "strong tanks" in competitive are the toxic fucking tanks like chogath and ornn and shit.

These tanks that deal such ridiculous amounts of fucking damage that they're basically uber-bruisers.

Nerf those fucking monstrosities, allow tank items to be fucking good again (especially armor, less so MR), and don't buff champions that already do their job against the healthier tanks like darius.

41 Comments

RexxieeSep 28, 20189 votes

You forgot Sion whos also very broken

Tychusfindlay918Sep 28, 20188 votes

{quoted}

You forgot whos also very broken

If they just reverted his latest round of buffs and left it at that I think he'd be fine.

I also don't think his kit is as toxic as ornn's or chogath's, sure he does a lot of damage early game but it's both unreliable and flat damage so at least there's counterplay and outscale-ability.

Moody PSep 28, 20183 votes

unreliable how? every time you go to CS he charges Q, doesn't even need to half charge it to chunk hard (for early game, he at least falls off later)

remove his Q being reduced CD when he gets disabled and this would be fine, but you can't even outplay him to get breathing room for 5 seconds before he's back to his BS

VerxintSep 28, 20181 votes

I think that goes back to the OP's other point that the viable tanks right now are basically just bruisers that don't need to build damage

Tychusfindlay918Sep 28, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xecqrW3j,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T17:41:51.875+0000)

unreliable how? every time you go to CS he charges Q, doesn't even need to half charge it to chunk hard (for early game, he at least falls off later)

remove his Q being reduced CD when he gets disabled and this would be fine, but you can't even outplay him to get breathing room for 5 seconds before he's back to his BS

That's another option, I would just revert the last round of buffs he got, but making it so that cancelling his Q is a more viable form of counterplay is A ok too.

THAT BEING SAID, to say that sion isn't unreliable is a fucking joke.

Half charge doesn't CHUNK HARD unless you're a super squish lane teemo or some shit.

A lot of his Q damage is predicated on landing E first.

Moody PSep 28, 20181 votes

Playing voli into him, assuming glacial dom build he can legit chunk like a fifth of my hp barely charging Q. can cancel him twice in my cooldowns but he never loses pressure

Very annoying

Quiet DudeSep 28, 20181 votes

Undying Grasp Gangplank wrecks Sion's face if you ever want to try it

Moody PSep 28, 20181 votes

i respect myself too much to be a gp main

SithesisLordSep 28, 20185 votes

remove his Q being reduced CD when he gets disabled and this would be fine

They didn´t buff that in his Q. They fixed a bug. It was intended for him to have that lower CD on Q when disabled. He is after all, one of the few champions who still screams 'Counterplay Incarnate'.

Moody PSep 28, 20181 votes

? I didn't say it was a buff. I said it should be removed

and no he doesnt. stop confusing bad sions with him having high lane counter play

RalanrSep 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xecqrW3j,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T17:41:51.875+0000)

unreliable how? every time you go to CS he charges Q, doesn't even need to half charge it to chunk hard (for early game, he at least falls off later)

"Sion is a lane pushing jerk." -Phreak. Sion champion spotlight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mWWFC9SRfA At 5:57.

Sion's meant to hurt early, he's a heavy lane pusher.

Edit: Though Sion imo is really strong right now. If I had to nerf him, I'd hurt AD Sion as he's getting more benefit out of the durability.

AirKingNeoSep 28, 20181 votes

Sion's meant to hurt early, he's a heavy lane pusher.

That's not really an argument. What's intended and what's healthy are 2 very different things.

RalanrSep 28, 20182 votes

True, though I wanted to point out that Riot has always intended Sion to be somewhat strong early. His damage on abilities like Q is so high to counteract how unreliable they intend to be.

Is uncharged Q too strong? Probably, so we should nerf it in some form. But complaining that Sion hurts early is like complaining Darius hurts early. It's intended, what needs to be looked at is how to address it. Simply removing it is not the right way, as it removes the intended strength of the champion.

Critmaster GarenSep 28, 20189 votes

while i dont totally disagree with the darius buff, i think it was the wrong one.

if they wanted to buff darius, imo it would have made more sense to buff the healing on his q back up to 15% missing health per target, to allow him to maintain his raidboss mode longer, when ge gets onto enemies or into the enemy team.

this would have made health stacking better on him and cleaver possibly a better option.

because by buffing his w, they buffed his trinityforce builds that are about blowing the enenmy up with auto + w + q before he gets blown up.

its the same thing that happened when they buffed garens q. the only way for garen to make himself relevant was to build triforce to burst out squishies with his q. instead they could have probably buffed his spin cooldown in some way, to increase his sustained damage.

it would be cool if garen had some sort of condition that would let him almost spam his spin as long as he can keep sticking to a target.

EedatSep 28, 20189 votes

http://na.op.gg/champion/chogath/statistics/top

He already was nerfed into the gutter. Dont get me wrong I dont like when he's strong either but he's pretty shit already

And Ornn? Really, Ornn? Ornn has been gutted to trash tier troll pick in soloQ

http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top

I really dont give a damn what they pick in the LCS. LCS is a different game and it doesnt make the champion good or not

Tychusfindlay918Sep 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

http://na.op.gg/champion/chogath/statistics/top

He already was nerfed into the gutter. Dont get me wrong I dont like when he's strong either but he's pretty shit already

And Ornn? Really, Ornn? Ornn has been gutted to trash tier troll pick in soloQ

http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top

I really dont give a damn what they pick in the LCS. LCS is a different game and it doesnt make the champion good or not

Better to further trash those two and fix much larger meta/item issues for both soloq and LCS than to allow them to stay in their current state.

That being said, directly nerfing them to give tank items room for buffs would help offset their nerfs.

EedatSep 29, 20183 votes

Errrrm lets not buff tank items. The whole point was to nerf tank items so we didnt end up with shit like tank Fizz Yasuo Ekko again

Tychusfindlay918Sep 29, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Errrrm lets not buff tank items. The whole point was to nerf tank items so we didnt end up with shit like tank again

Stupid, Those champs already had their tank builds largely dealt with. Tank items being viable didn't turn them into an issue, their kits and numbers were the inherent issue.

Try again.

EedatSep 29, 20182 votes

No, tank itemization got nerfed as a whole and power was added back in to their kits to stop other classes from abusing tank itemization. It was the entire point of it.

Let me quote you directly from the patch notes:

The giant health numbers on some of our completed defensive items allows non-tanks (Ekko, Fizz, you get the point...) to spike harder off their first big purchase than damage dealers can keep pace with.

So before attempting to call someone an idiot, make sure you know exactly what you're talking about

DuskDaUmbreonSep 29, 20182 votes

What nerfed those champions and made their tank builds shit was nerfing base damages, though.

The problem was not the tank items on them. The problem was them still dealing enough damage to do what they did before even with tank items.

EedatSep 29, 20181 votes

When Tank itemization was nerfed in the tank update Riot actually called out tank Fizz and Ekko and as reason. The reasoning being raw HP as a stat from items was too powerful and was outclassing damae options. Tank itemization as nerfed and power was added directly back to tanks kits as not only a nerf to tank Fizz, Ekko, Yasuo, etc that were popular at the time, but to prevent these tank builds from popping up in the future

Tychusfindlay918Sep 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

When Tank itemization was nerfed in the tank update Riot actually called out tank Fizz and Ekko and as reason. The reasoning being raw HP as a stat from items was too powerful and was outclassing damae options. Tank itemization as nerfed and power was added directly back to tanks kits as not only a nerf to tank Fizz, Ekko, Yasuo, etc that were popular at the time, but to prevent these tank builds from popping up in the future

Inconsistent from riot at best, because they when they addressed tank ekko and fizz, the FIRST things they did was up ratios and cut bases, not look at tank items as the culprit.

SrbonatorSep 28, 20185 votes

Not sure if maokai is a tank but that champs is retarded oh look you took 1 half of his health, OOPS he just got that half back with his passive!

AlzonSep 28, 201813 votes

Maokai is actually one of the weaker tanks right now. His passive is best in fights where he can proc it multiple times, but that never happens. He’s also very weak to true damage, which has been running rampant in League since tank items had some of their health traded for more resistances. Additionally, his lockdown is primarily single-target, unlike Cho, Sion, and Ornn.

SrbonatorSep 28, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is actually one of the weaker tanks right now. His passive is best in fights where he can proc it multiple times, but that never happens. He’s also very weak to true damage, which has been running rampant in League since tank items had some of their health traded for more resistances. Additionally, his lockdown is primarily single-target, unlike Cho, Sion, and Ornn.

Hahaha i know camille keeps doing 1k true damage unnoticed

La BelloSep 28, 20184 votes

The biggest problem with tanks for me its really silly how a tank can rush a quick item 3751 item 3076 in lane and then lord over their natural counters due to all the bonus damage. If you get these two items then champs like Fiora Kled can no longer duel a champ like Maokai Poppy Malphite Nautilus Ornn Sion .

the ONLY way they can is if

at least 60% of thier damage type is either located in their abilities or as MAGIC type . Jax Riven Irelia Akali OR they have access to some big true damage nukes ala Darius Camille Garen summoner 14 .

besides that your average fighter simply cant contend with a tank getting all this bonus damage on TOP of significant resist boost and survivability. Its too much of a double whammy for them to handle so generally as a fighter you get relegated to waiting until you can finish your 2~~3rd item to have a realistic chance at them BUT. And heres the funny part. By the time you reach 2~~3 items TEAMFIGHT phase has begun which is once again the focal point of when tanks have the advantage. Being able to hold their frontline far longer than you can hold yours you are STILL most likely to lose here.

THE ONLY WAY a fighter can prevail by this point is to splitpush and try to use his champions duel potential but with the sweeping changes to the game Splitting becomes harder and harder by the patch. In league of homeguards,waveclear and mobility getting a inhib without feeding kills to the 3 man gank squad gunning for you the second they spot you pushing past krugs is all but impossible.

so tl;dr yeah. if tanks just go even with fighters in lane (they dont even have to win) they will usually be more impactful for their team at the mid to late by sheer nature of design. Bruisers kinda low-key suck because league of splitpush is no longer that strong of a viable option and even then juggs suck at it because they aren't slippery enough to avoid the gank squads and its to easy to defend.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 28, 20181 votes

Finally a player who understands the problems.

Critmaster GarenSep 28, 20182 votes

though i agree with ornn and chogath.

cho should lose the % damage on his e and get more reliability on his q instead. maybe reduce his q and w cooldowns when he hits enemies with his e instead. this would push him back into a tank role instead of a champion who gets to be a tank with juggernaut base damage.

ornn should have the unstoppable added back to his w, the damage on the ability changed back to current health % damage or just flat damage with 150% to minions or something like that so he can have decent waveclear.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 28, 20181 votes

No. Tanks shouldn't have innate waveclear. There is a reason why ornn, mao, galio top are so fuckin cancer. Zero interactivity, autowin brainless push.

Critmaster GarenSep 28, 20186 votes

{quoted}

No. Tanks shouldn't have innate waveclear. There is a reason why ornn, mao, galio top are so fuckin cancer. Zero interactivity, autowin brainless push.

they kindof need some form of waveclear if they dont have trade potential, so theyre still capable of laning.

the reason why these champions in specific are so riduculously hard to deal with at times is their ability to just brick wall you off in lane and outtrade even fighters with their high base damage.

Tychusfindlay918Sep 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xecqrW3j,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T21:50:51.602+0000)

they kindof need some form of waveclear if they dont have trade potential, so theyre still capable of laning.

the reason why these champions in specific are so riduculously hard to deal with at times is their ability to just brick wall you off in lane and outtrade even fighters with their high base damage.

True. Only reason darius can contend with chogath again is because riot turned his E into a supreme shredding machine that gives him Whisper level armor pen so that he doesn't even need to worry about cleaver anymore.

IG ZikoSep 28, 20182 votes

I don't play ornn but he has 45% win rate. Remove him from the game already.

TheSingularitySep 29, 20182 votes

Most of the tanks are pretty weak right now, and despite his fat af heath bar, cho is more like a juggernaut despite Riot's classification of him being a mage. Just to justify. Almost every tank has at least 3 CC spells 2 of which are hard CC (he has 1 hard 1 soft), they then lack spells purely for the sake of damage (cho spikes and R especially). Cho'gath's CC is then way less reliable (like dari, yorick ect) and fails to disrupt many people, lock down one person, catch someone out or peel effectively (the purpose of tank CC)

Alistar Amumu Sion are pretty good at the moment, 2 of them for the wrong reasons. Amumu and sion deal too much damage, and secondarily scale in beef way faster than other tanks due to their kits and innate stats. Their damage is due to it being true/physical respectively meaning you can't completely nullify it with a single item like with magic dmg. Because of this, they're winning through stat checks which certainly isn't healthy. A tank needs just enough damage that they can't be ignored and nothing more Gragas also suffers this problem to a lesser extent, he just gets way too much free shit through stats alone. He builds full AP and is as fat as darius, builds full beef and can compete with darius for damage. (disclaimer, don't play dari, play mid/jg primarily just needed a comparison)

Rammus is situationally good depending on enemy team

But if we look at other tanks like Zac Shen (desirable in pro play, weak af in regular play) Sejuani Ornn Maokai , all of them are health or armor based making them obscenely weak in a meta plagued with armor reduction and true damage. On top of that sej, shen and zac have been nerfed due to pro play, nautilus as well for 2.5 years non stop while malphite is situational atm.

Am curios as to your problem with ornn so if you could expand on that would love to respond :)

Tychusfindlay918Sep 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Most of the tanks are pretty weak right now, and despite his fat af heath bar, cho is more like a juggernaut despite Riot's classification of him being a mage. Just to justify. Almost every tank has at least 3 CC spells 2 of which are hard CC (he has 1 hard 1 soft), they then lack spells purely for the sake of damage (cho spikes and R especially). Cho'gath's CC is then way less reliable (like dari, yorick ect) and fails to disrupt many people, lock down one person, catch someone out or peel effectively (the purpose of tank CC)

are pretty good at the moment, 2 of them for the wrong reasons. Amumu and sion deal too much damage, and secondarily scale in beef way faster than other tanks due to their kits and innate stats. Their damage is due to it being true/physical respectively meaning you can't completely nullify it with a single item like with magic dmg. Because of this, they're winning through stat checks which certainly isn't healthy. A tank needs just enough damage that they can't be ignored and nothing more Gragas also suffers this problem to a lesser extent, he just gets way too much free shit through stats alone. He builds full AP and is as fat as darius, builds full beef and can compete with darius for damage. (disclaimer, don't play dari, play mid/jg primarily just needed a comparison)

Rammus is situationally good depending on enemy team

But if we look at other tanks like (desirable in pro play, weak af in regular play) , all of them are health or armor based making them obscenely weak in a meta plagued with armor reduction and true damage. On top of that sej, shen and zac have been nerfed due to pro play, nautilus as well for 2.5 years non stop while malphite is situational atm.

Am curios as to your problem with ornn so if you could expand on that would love to respond :)

My problem with ornn and chogath is their damage output, and how reliable said output is. That's the main reason why their kits are so goddamn toxic.

They're loaded to the brim with % max HP damage which keeps them tame against squishies but allows them to shred bruisers and other tanks.

TheSingularitySep 30, 20181 votes

Do agree. Ornns problem is they've loaded too much of his dmg into one spell to make his AOE less overbearing (otherwise his waveclear combo would be absolutely absurd and way too safe). His dmg is less of a problem now, he jst has to stay that way

Cho will be a problem as long as Riot keep his R the way it is. Infinitely stacking Hp which causes infinitely scaling damage. What a stupid design....

paperbIadeSep 28, 20181 votes

true damage point click ult balance btw while running at me with item 3800

Noor SakataSep 28, 20181 votes

Tanks who has so much AOE CC are a mistake , like Ornn and Cho , those champions should never exist Ornn released ? he becomes pick or ban just because of his aoe cc , nerf him to the ground , his winrate becomes 45% and he is still played in pro play and annoying to deal with , you can't balance such a champion and you can't understand why his winrate is low , he is still tanky af with so much cc and so much dmg

My Waifu VanillaSep 29, 20183 votes

So much AoE CC Chogath

Yeah I mean I GUESS Cho can hit 5 people with his Q that can be walked out of by anyone with brown boots, but the chances of that are next to none. He CAN CC chain with other tanks, but that is a problem with CC chaining and not Chogath inherently. Cho's problem isn't his CC. It hasn't been since they nerfed his W. His problem is his ability to never leave lane after like level 5 and his ult.

Noor SakataSep 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xecqrW3j,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-09-29T01:08:15.934+0000)

Yeah I mean I GUESS Cho can hit 5 people with his Q that can be walked out of by anyone with brown boots, but the chances of that are next to none. He CAN CC chain with other tanks, but that is a problem with CC chaining and not Chogath inherently. Cho's problem isn't his CC. It hasn't been since they nerfed his W. His problem is his ability to never leave lane after like level 5 and his ult.

When I said aoe cc I mostly meant Ornn , however , it's impossible to dodge cho gath when the indicator is on the middle of the target , I just played against a cho gath premade with Yasuo on my smurf and they had a good strategy , cho bought mobility boots and could always outrun everyone , and he always did hit his q , it was un dodgable , not to forgot he can slow too

Tychusfindlay918Sep 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xecqrW3j,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-09-29T01:08:15.934+0000)

Yeah I mean I GUESS Cho can hit 5 people with his Q that can be walked out of by anyone with brown boots, but the chances of that are next to none. He CAN CC chain with other tanks, but that is a problem with CC chaining and not Chogath inherently. Cho's problem isn't his CC. It hasn't been since they nerfed his W. His problem is his ability to never leave lane after like level 5 and his ult.

Actually it's the combination of his ult and E.

His E scales with stacks to make him shred other tanks and bruisers surprisingly fast, and his ult scales with stacks to allow him to better chunk or assassinate high-priority squishies, all while making him tankier with each stack.

He basically scales to be better against EVERYTHING he can get in range of, and he gets damage and tank, and it's too fucking much.

The LEAST riot can do is seriously cut down his minion stacks to 3 so that he's pressured to try and get champ/objective stacks much earlier without being guaranteed so many baseline stacks.

Also, chogath passive is online right at level 1 to erase most champion's harass.