The case for smaller changes on a faster timescale

ModKnightsKemplar··12 votes·7,817 views

The midseason has a lot of people talking about how Riot handles changes in their game. I thought I'd weigh in with my two cents. My point here, to spoil my punchline, is that smaller changes done over time would be much better for the game.

The crit rework has been really interesting because it's something that players have been talking about for a couple of years now; that's an important point because it means that we've waiting a good, long while for changes to the crit system. We've known that the exponential damage that marksmen were doing to squishy targets has been problematic; that's not a recent development, but it took this long to get around to it because Riot really staunchly believes that major changes should wait until a certain time of the year.

That's a fine approach, if you believe that this will necessarily cause a huge disruption. My question is, why can't we change one thing at a time to address one problem at a time? This is a lesson that I feel Riot is learning very slowly; we had to go through 3 class reworks before we decided they class updates weren't working, for example. It was easier to just update the champs that needed it the most and tweak some items.

So for the crit rework, my "hindsight 20/20" proposal is this: let's just change the passive on Infinity Edge. Remove the "+1.5x extra crit damage" and try out this "+x% true damage" idea. Don't even change the stats. This change, by itself, solves the problem caused by a rushed Infinity Edge by making that item a much less attractive starting item.

Now some of you will say "but that's not the whole problem! They fixed a lot of other things with this major, super-duper update!" Yeah, maybe, but it's actually hard to tell which changes helped and which hurt, and why, because they all happened at once. Why not do those things one or two at a time, so we get a good handle on how each change affects Marksmen? With the full data of the live environment behind each change, we'd get to see how what each change is doing, which not only allows us to make better changes, it also gives us levers to pull later, since we know what each change does to marksmen! By doing them all at once, you significantly decrease your ability to predict the outcome of those changes and you lose valuable information about them you could have used later.

So here's the "plea to Riot" section: consider doing some early brainstorming on problems and restrict it to one thing that you want to solve. I think the two fighter items coming into the game are a great example of this thinking, by the way: by introducing two items and not changing much else about fighters, it's going to be crystal clear what's to blame for any problems with fighters that patch. Each item has a specific purpose, and if either one isn't fulfilling that purpose, you can fix it quickly.

If Marksmen would need stat changes and reworked crit items after changing the passive on Infinity Edge, fine. That's cool. There's no reason you can't do that. And if you did that infinity edge change sometime last year, we wouldn't even lose out on the bigger changes this mid-season. This approach allows you to make changes quickly without disrupting the game so badly, and if the small disruptions don't have the desired effect, then by all means, do some stat changes during preseason! Change all the item costs! Go for broke! But when you do that and change how 2 items work and add a new item, everyone is completely disoriented. Very few people find that experience fun in a competitive environment.

I haven't done this myself, so I'll count on you commenters to help me out here, but I suspect that if we look back through the patch history, what we'll find is that small, high impact changes turn out better in the long run than the Big Balance Projects. Discuss!

36 Comments

Pika Fox6 votes

Slow changes over time are boring, less hype-y and less noticable. The game stagnates and dies with this model. As much as people say they hate change, they really dont. What a customer says they want and what they actually want are often 2 very different things.

Edit: typing on a phone = fat finger typing.

meticoulouswolf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xYEOMLOe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-09T19:06:28.981+0000)

Slow changes over time are boring, less hypy and less noticable. The game stagnates and dies with this model. As much as peopld say they hate change, they really dont. What a. Customer says they want and what they actually want are often 2 very different things.

yeah

Tormentula8 votes

Yea we want change

but sometimes too much change is a bad thing. We don't mind meta shake-ups like pre-mid season, but when we have crit, jungle, new champ, and major balance tuning in a single mid season that's just exhausting to keep up with. If anything, it makes some players stick away until a meta settles. If players become exhausted, they become lazy and less motivated to actually adjust to the meta, and thus they prefer to stay away until it settles.

Then with all those changes, we have several balance changes in each category we have to constantly readjust to. If we're just balancing junglers, fair.. but we're balancing junglers, ADCs, supports, camps, snowball, and items like banner and fighter items, all while still trying to balance/nerf stuff that needs those tunings regardless like mid and top laners, thats a little too much to take in within only a couple patches.. all of that should span out an entire season one at a time.

Pika Fox1 votes

No, riot is giving us exactly what we need. You might not think it or like it, but it is.

Tormentula1 votes

never said we didn't need this (although i'd probably start a scuttle rant thread any day i felt like it), just saying everything we needed didn't need to happen all at once, its too much and takes too long to evaluate and fix everything at once rather then one problem at a time. We're still meta adapting and all the different major shifts are clashing together in all the testing. (what if nerfing marksmen was enough to balance the jungle's impact? What if changes to camp XP and respawn without scuttle changes was all we needed? who will ever know.)

  • Figuring out the state of pyke
  • Figuring out the state of the jungle
  • Figuring out the state of bot lane
  • Figuring out individual champs affected by those changes
  • Combating early snowball
  • Trying to help mage junglers while also messing with the jungle itself.
  • Adding more options to bruisers and skirmishers
  • New runes and replacing older runes

there's a lot to chew while worrying about individual champs unrelated to the mid season balance wise.

AirKingNeo1 votes

What we need is for them to properly balance the game any decent bit. They aren't doing that.

Pika Fox2 votes

Games already perfectly balanced. Already done. Next.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Please tell me you're joking when multiple champions, especially half the bruisers in the game, are completely unviable for obvious reasons.

Pika Fox2 votes

Every champion is viable up until master tier, including garen and yi.

AirKingNeo3 votes

why is kai'sa allowed to be more viable than sivir?

Pika Fox2 votes

Shes not. Sivir has historically seen numerous instances of being pro dominant. And outside of tournament play no champion is "more viable". Youre literally not good enough for the slight imbalances riot intentionally makes for the pro scene to matter to you. Unless youre playing with QT on a regular basis the game is essentially perfectly balanced.

AirKingNeo3 votes

and yet Kai'Sa is more viable than Sivir right now.

Player skill has nothing to do with game balance.

Pika Fox2 votes

Are you challenger tier? If not, then that statement is false, both are equally viable.

AirKingNeo2 votes

You don't understand how balance works then. You choose not to understand.

Pika Fox1 votes

No, i know how balance works. Guess what? The game is balanced. Kai sa isnt "more viable" than siver, whatever the hell that means, sivir brings an entirely different kit than kai sa. Outside of pro play you can play whatever you want that isnt AP Garen and do well BECAUSE of how well the game is balanced. Unless youre high level challenger you literally have 0 rights to balance complaints.

LeaveNotThineBed2 votes

You only play bot games, you don't even play the same fucking game as everyone else you're talking to.

Stop shoving your opinions down people's throats, because I've looked through your various comments and you have no fucking clue what you're talking about, yet you choose to be extremely vocal and argue against many actual good arguments. This game is an imbalanced mess, anyone that doesn't have his own head stuck up his ass knows it.

In d1+ most games are decided at champ select. Due to the awful state the game is in, playstyles have changed to "build up a lead as soon as possible and try to snowball" because that's the only way to really control a game by yourself, and even then if someone else dies too many times before you can get kills or die too many times yourself the game is over.

Meanwhile in DotA 2, almost every character is viable, with even the top meta picks at ~50% win rates in pro tournaments, some as low ~45%. They don't go much higher than ~55% afaik either.

You can't genuinely believe that you, whom doesn't even play this game, knows more than people that actually do. Oh wait, I guess you can, because you're just as delusional as the Riot balance team.

Oh, and about "challenger or wrong", that's a load of shit. Even some challenger players don't know what they're talking about. On top of that, challenger is the top 200 in a region. There's different types of players, and most high level players play more through instinct and muscle memory than conscious thought. You've clearly never been in upper echelons of play in ANY video game ever.

I'm guessing you also believe this game isn't dying, when bot game queues at late night have gone from an average of 5 seconds (10 max) in the past few seasons to up to one minute depending on the day in the current season.

Wake up.

EDIT: Correction. You've never been high level in ANY game ever, including sports.

Pika Fox1 votes

Again, game is balanced. Unless youre in challenger+ or tournament play, youre literally not good enough for the very slight imbalance that riot keeps to shift pro play meta to matter. You can ad hominem all you want, im still right.

3TWarrior5 votes

can you name one instance of a customer asking for something and not knowing what it is that they really want?

Pika Fox1 votes

I work in the food industry. I can literally show you people changing their order multiple times a day.

3TWarrior4 votes

really? there are multiple situations where that happens

  1. they are messing with you
  2. they had something else on their mind and the line went through before they finished thinking of what they want to order
  3. the order was misheard(any idea how many times this happens?)
  4. hunger is a variable because tastebuds change all the time, as do the body's nutritional needs
  5. they are a health-concerned patron weighing the pros and cons
  6. the latest generations have been raised to buy conservatively, so it interferes when they want one thing but another is more cost effective

now, try comparing that to say a market/store and see how demand occurs

Pika Fox1 votes

Oh please, people tell me what they would totally buy if i make it and sell it, but they dont buy it. Ever. Even the previous owner said the same thing, and they worked for multiple different companies all of which had the same experience. Stock a product the customer requests because they requested it, and it will never sell. Ever. What they say they want and what they buy when given the option are never the same.

3TWarrior2 votes

there is literally a saying for this very situation: The customer is always right. There is also another saying for if the customer is wrong: there is no cure for stupid.

Most situations you describe happen when the customer finds something more valuable to them than their original request. If the object were present at the time or given in detail to the customer, they would probably change their mind

to apply this to league, the developers: hold very brief, not very public discussions about their gameplay; ignore user suggestions; intentionally obscure data; do not actively use(play) their own product( a sin in most marketing strategies); refer to EXTERNAL sources for public opinion when they provide a source for themselves; Have no reference to their OFFICIAL DEVELOPMENT WEBSITE...

it all screams shady even if roughly half of these were just coincidental consequences of improper planning

Pika Fox1 votes

The customer is always right has nothing to do with what the customer says they want, its how to deal with customers on a PR level (and is a terrible policy if taken at face value).

No, the situations dont develop because the customer finds something of more value, it happens because you literally have no idea what you want. A google analyst knows more about you in 5 minutes than you will ever know in your entire life, and can figure out your spending habits and what you are likely to want and buy. What you say you want isnt what you want. It will never be what is optimal for a company to follow, because given the information at their disposal they know you better than you do.

3TWarrior1 votes

really? considering I spend conservatively, have bought very little to next to nothing online, do my own research on products, block or deny almost every "targeted" commercial because it is irrelevant to me and have a very tightly controlled budget...

/S yep, i'm certain they know EXACTLY what I want, but no, i'm sure those lawnmowers, antivirus, $400 disfunctional gaming laptop-controller hybrids and various other junk that I have no budget to buy and no need to buy...absolutely applies to me

Google knows everything about everyone unless they've never been online, but thing is, it's more personal information and purchase information, but it is not ABSOLUTE

Pika Fox1 votes

The US kills people based solely off of cellphone tracking and can determine how old you are, how tall you are, your criminal status, likes etc. just based off of where you go daily. Metadata is far more prevalent and potent than youre giving credit.

3TWarrior1 votes

yes, they do, but you forget that A, whoever gets killed is either a high priority target(such as someone who is very rich or in a conspiracy, which really, NONE OF US are ever going to be involved in high level politics), a criminal, or someone who is involved somehow with criminal activity

If I did something to anger the mafia, you can guarantee that I would either have a new name or be dead soon

ALL OF THAT is irrelevant to whether or not a customer knows what they want or not from a marketing source

Pika Fox1 votes

It is very relevant. The customers never know what they want. Theyll tell you what they want while buying something entirely different. They can say "If you stock this it will sell well" then oh look, it doesnt sell. The customer has none of the data the business has, hell, the customer cant even tell you what they want you to sell them, as if you listen to them, theyll continue to grab what they were before instead of the thing they specifically said they wanted.

3TWarrior1 votes

and have you considered using more than one source to validate demand against supply? from the way you have written that, it looks like you are taking what one person says at face value as what a group of people want. You also make it sound as if you would take NO PRECAUTIONS against someone making a purchase and not honoring their agreement

thing is, here are the boards and multiple other sources confirming (including high-level players and professional streamers) that the game is not going in the right direction. Riot no longer releases data and COINCIDENTALLY only releases data whenever it benefits them, people have shown that even your google data shows that league is going down in popularity

it has even been confirmed that the recent changes have caused a rapid decline in popularity in the US for some reason

Pika Fox1 votes

Given i now own and run the business, and have talked to the previous owner as well as plenty of managers/higher ups in the stores around here how to run their businesses and deal with customers and what they ask for etc, yes i have more than one source beyond just personal experience.

This has nothing to do with someone making a purchase and not honoring it, it has to do with what a customer says they want and what they actually want. If a customer says "X will sell well" or "I would buy X if you sold it", chances are no it wont/no they wont. Theyll just default to what they were buying before. You dont stock what your customers say they want, you stock what they actually buy.

3TWarrior1 votes

alright, then ask yourself. If you were asking a provider for something, would you just buy your own habits, would you want what you want to buy and buy it, or would you buy what they are trying to sell to you?

Pika Fox1 votes

Problem is that introduces bias. Shopping and consumer habbits are better indicators of what i would and would not spend my money on than what i think i would. Companies spend massive amounts of money on ads for a reason.

I can say id buy what im asking for all i want. But that means nothing. Me buying it is all that matters. Me saying i want it isnt any indication of me buying it.

Leto GT1 votes

We want changes of course. However, you have to admit that league needs commitment. It requires knowledge of such as match-ups, build, itemization, etc... Change is fine but too much change at a high pace just make players losing the feeling of control and knowledge they've in the game. Also, on the long-run, players who found the time to keep that pace and commitment may just start to believe that it's pointless because it's going to keep changing every two weeks anyway. The latter is probably the worst imo as it disconnects those players from the game itself.

Mr Tim3 votes

Very well said I think; I've been playing since the beginning of season 2, and I can really say that the current state of the game in season 8 (for a few months now) has felt EXTREMELY chaotic, arguably more so than a preseason. I am completely fine with doing an overhaul of a game system during a preseason or doing some larger scope changes during a mid season; I personally think that the Runes Reforged system was a needed change for instance (Old masteries, apart from keystones, were very lackluster and oftentimes it was difficult to appreciate the effect of a mastery on gameplay).

I believe Meddler has already said this somewhere, and I believe much of the player base agrees, that this whole "big patch, small patch" cycle has been a failure, in so many words. And paraphrasing what you said, instead of making small changes every patch and making adjustments based on those changes, Riot has opted into making a ton of changes in one patch, and then attempting to make adjustments on everything simultaneously. This is fine if this is during a preseason, where the community has grown to accept a state of disarray for about a month or so while everyone adjusts, but this is simply unacceptable outside of preseason. So many changes have been happening to so many different game systems over a longer period of time (probably about 2 months now? Maybe longer?), that just as soon as players begin settling into the game after the shakeup of the previous patch, the new one slams on us from behind and knocks us back down onto the ground.

As I said before, I've been playing this game since season 2, and I have never been as frustrated with this game as I have been this in season overall. I've been through some pretty rough periods balance wise in league's history (Feral Flare, 4.20weedwick, challenging smite top laners, League of Black Cleavers, DFG, to name a few), so that is really saying something. I would much rather prefer constant smaller scale changes from patch to patch, rather than a large scale patch every month that completely changes the way the game plays. With these huge patches, it becomes rather unclear where the issues are specifically, and it becomes much harder to tackle them, leaving the community in a state of confusion and frustration.

As an aside, I also think that its rather peculiar that Riot has taken to this pattern of reverting/partially reverting many changes from the past (Looking at you, Ahri, LeBlanc, Kha, Rengar, etc). LeBlanc I find particularly interesting, because their initial goals for her rework were to "make LeBlanc healthier", "give LebLanc unique strategic tools...brings something that other assassins don't", "emphasize identify as the Deceiver" (https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/x4tgmm0s-assassins-leblanc-feedback-thread). But they then revert her and place her into a near identical state that she was pre-rework, and (at least from what I've seen, both playing as and against) it seems the problems she had before are still present. Just thought of this as an aside while thinking about recent balancing.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

nah, i think they should remove crit and buff the items that used to give crit

like statik shiv no longer gives crit but now applis the passive on every hit (and reduce the bounces to 2 targets)

LordForrest1 votes

{quoted}

like statik shiv no longer gives crit but now applis the passive on every hit (and reduce the bounces to 2 targets)

That is pretty damn similar to the item that item 3087 was meant to replace.

Ionic Spark +50% attack speed +250 health Passive Unique: Every fourth autoattack unleashes a chain lightning, dealing 125 magic damage to up to 4 targets. Targets cannot be hit twice by the same lightning. (400 bounce range)

It was removed because few champions could actually use it or wanted it. It did have some niche builds that utilized it, but was overall rather lack luster.

Removing Crit without some other compensation of some kind would have Statikk be a pure attack speed item with a meh passive and a rather disappointing amount of attack speed for the price.

Ratpie2 votes

I am not sure, I sort of fall both ways. There needs to be change to keep things fresh, but there also has to be some stability through those changes otherwise we have the problems that many people are voicing right now. I think that maybe just targeting one area for their big mid season changes instead of so many changes at once, and then do small tweaks throughout. And by tweaks I think it should be case by case basis. When there are these class wide or role wide changes (nerfs or buffs) they do not land on all champs equally. More small tweaking to individual champs instead of dumpstering half the champ pool in one move while elevating all the others.

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