Let’s Discuss: Marksmen

ModKnightsKemplar·Sep 19, 2017·145 votes·10,842 views

There has been a lot of discussion on the Boards regarding the state of marksmen in League of Legends. Seems like a good time for a megathread!

The point of this thread is to try to get some good discussion going around the role of marksmen in the game. With the preseason coming up, this is a time that the meta will almost certainly be shifting. The role of marksmen is something that has been pretty controversial lately, so let’s talk about it!

The goal of this thread is to get some good thoughts from the community about what the issue with this class might be and float some ideas about how to “fix it” (if it is indeed broken). The discussion should be focused on the meta and the overall role of adcs, not necessarily just looking at particular adcs or items that are broken (unless you think that’s the whole problem, I guess).

As with the other megathreads so far, the goal here is partially to try to lure Riot with our awesome discussion. As a result, we are going to be aggressively moderating the discussion here (stricter rules about keeping on topic and being respectful than usual). If you aren’t contributing to the overall goals of the thread, your comment may be removed! Keep things civil!

356 Comments

AFilthyCaitMainSep 19, 2017108 votes

#TLDR: Marksman are strong right now because literally everything in the meta favors them right now.

Tanks are still strong as crap on their own

Who counters tanks? ADCs. So having tanks being strong correlates with ADCs being strong naturally. Tanks now have bramble, stoneplate, locket, and many more appealing options to choose from.

Supports are probably the strongest role right now

Their itemization options are borderline disgustingly good. item 3504 item 3800 item 3109 item 3076 item 3190 item 3193 etc. How could ADCs NOT thrive in this situation? Supports are too good at their job right now, nd its getting out of hand.

Some assassins arent that good right now Seriously. Lebalnc is up for her rework, AD Assassins are being held back by Duskblade, Diana is still in a weird spot, and so on. Some assassins could use a bit of help so the assassin class can overall do a bit better. ALTHOUGH, nerfing tanks and supports may fix this issue too.

Divers and skirmishers are being completely outclassed by tanks

Seriously. Why pick Irelia or Vi when you can just pick sejuani. Sej can lock you down for ages and still proceed to chunk you hard, and if they build RG and bramble, its really hard to outclass.

#In my opinion, we are not in a direct ADC meta, we are in a hardcore tank and support meta, where they make it almost impossible to kill the adc. Nerfing these two will indirectly buff assassins and indirectly nerf ADCs.

Also as a Caitlyn main, Shiv is a disgusting item

ModKnightsKemplarSep 19, 20179 votes

Yeah, I do think ardent nerfs will help a lot.

I'm quite sure, though, that many people still have a problem with how adcs fit into the current meta. They are very necessary, and provide something that no other class can do. That's not necessarily a bad thing, except you need to take those towers to win the game.

Just for the sake of discussion (since you write very clearly and state your opinions reasonably), what's your response to that? Do you want a game where marksmen are necessary? Do you think there are things that could "fix" that in a healthy way?

AFilthyCaitMainSep 19, 201727 votes

In League, Riot seems to enjoy ADCs being necessary, and i to an extent agree. Marksman are a pretty fair class when balanced, as they can be killed by about anything shivers from poppy flashbacks. The trade off for that though, is that they are THE damage source in the game, which some people confuse as them being tank busters only. Although, Riot should encourage the off meta morde, yasuo, etc adc. Although lets be honest, do you want a yasuo with windwall or something every game completely screwing you over? ADCs are a pretty balanced class in design, and I dont think riot will rid of them anytime soon.

As I stated before, marksman are the ATTACK DAMAGE carry. Not solely the tank buster. ADCs are supposed to kill everything very quickly late game, in exchange for being killed quickly themselves.

A healthy change could be a crit rework, where it was turned into damage modifiers. Although this would be incredibly broken because Assassins, taanks, etc could buy one of the items and abuse it heavily. You have to stack crit to make it worth it, which is kinda what balances crit now.

All in all, I think ADCs are a healthy class, and trying to force a different class into the bot lane would most likely just be cancerous to play against, as ADCs have very obvious weaknesses. Its like needing someone to tank the damage, you also need someone to deal RELIABLE damage while someone tanks it.

Kai GuySep 19, 201715 votes

I want to chip in on the last paragraph and state that Having bot be dedicated and desirable to the duo lane is probably good for the game, 2 v 1 lanes are hard. I don't see positive impact to game health if we allow duo lane to pretend its mundo and go where it pleases.

AFilthyCaitMainSep 19, 20176 votes

Yeah this is pretty true. Since this became the meta, changing it now is useless, because if theres ever a 2v1 lane, rip the one person.

5000000000000000Sep 19, 20174 votes

Might be a bit off topic, but I think having 2v2 mid lane becoming meta will result in overall healthier game. It's easier to roam from and to mid lane, so everyone can impact the lane reasonably well. The lane with the most gank paths (mid lane) is also the most well warded (since support will be there). Also, top lane doesn't become an island where one early death can mean you are zoned from cs the entire laning phase.

Not sure where mages/assassins/marksmen will fit in, though. Mage/assassin mid is a thing in big part because of getting solo xp and hitting 6 earlier than others, and this change will mean everyone will be at around the same level by the end of laning.

SnakDatSmilesBakSep 19, 20173 votes

How would a lane other than bot become a duo lane? A relatively big meta shift like that would be fun in my opinion.

5000000000000000Sep 19, 20171 votes

Maybe one lane (probably bot) can get a larger minion wave? That way, there's more gold and xp available for one lane, which would allow solo bot laners to hit 6 before anyone else. Rift Herald is already pretty equivalent in power to dragons, and that's another way to move people from botside to topside.

Maybe this will just result in marksman/support bot lane like we already see, though. 2v1 in bot lane has more advantage than 2v1 in mid, since the lane is shorter mid. Duo mid strategy would not be very strong against duo bot strategy, and I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

It Hertz When IPSep 19, 20173 votes

Mid minions move slower, maybe? means the waves arrive at the same timing as the other lanes. Difference between mid and other lanes is now only the relative tower safety.

ModKnightsKemplarSep 19, 20173 votes

This is the biggest thing with this idea. Solo mages won't be able to safely farm in either side lane, and I think that kills the idea. They would have to find some way to increase safety for side laners for this to happen, and I'm just not sure I see a fair and balanced way to do that.

ProfDrDeathSep 19, 201712 votes

Do not forget the direct strength of ADC itemization:

IE (and Essence Reaver) is quite a bit cheaper than it used to be (3400 instead of 3600 gold)
Zeal upgrades are cheap and both powerful on their own and synergistic with each other. Especially , which gives ADCs a lot of burst damage.

Another issue that influences the strength of tanks:

Armor is more influential than it used to be. The Tank Update changed defensive items to be more heavy on the side of resistances, while nerfing the anti-armor-stacking options at the same time (Last Whisper went from 45% to 35%, Black Cleaver from 30% to 24%).

Is it really surprising that this gives tanks a major boost in their match-ups? And, as a consequence, puts a lot of emphasis on the anti-tanks?

Teridax68Sep 19, 201754 votes

My TL;DR opinion on this is that I think marksmen as a class have tremendous potential, but currently there are some major balance and design issues with them that have persisted for years, and worsened over time.

#My issues with marksmen:

Marksmen are too reliable and not interactive enough: A core component to marksmen is their autoattack damage, which is by nature extremely reliable. I do not think this needs to change. However, what I do think needs to change is the rest of their power, which is often too reliable as well: out of all the classes out there, marksmen are also distinguished by having steroids that are on-demand, devoid of counterplay and often quite powerful, which simply piles on even more reliability onto an already extremely reliable class. This has improved somewhat in recent designs, but we still have the likes of Tristana, Twitch and Vayne giving themselves massive stats. It's boring and uninteractive, and makes marksmen even more stat-focused than they need to be.
Marksmen do too much at the same time: A common reason cited for why marksmen are mandatory is that they are the only ones capable of providing DPS and pushing power. This, I think, is bogus, as fighters also specialize in DPS. However, marksmen are picked not just for their DPS and push, but also their objective control, their teamfighting power and late-game strength. Effectively, they occupy several niches at once, and thereby crowd out other classes as a result. There's a reason why marksmen still cannot be split into subclasses even after they received a major update, and I believe it's because most marksmen could easily fill several of whichever subclasses were to be drawn at once.
Marksman balance is confused: For a long time, the idea behind marksmen as a whole was that they were a late-game class, where they all had weak lanes in exchange for the best scaling in the game. Fast-forward to Preseason 6 and onwards, and marksmen still have the best late games, but many are also more than capable of bullying opponents in solo lanes, including actual lane bullies. Marksman balance is at this stage where the class gets to have their cake and eat it too, and I think a hard decision needs to be made on whether they get to remain the game's designated carries, in which case they should have their early games nerfed, or whether they get to each have their own power curves and different strengths throughout the game, in which case most of their late games should be nerfed.
Marksmen are too strong: I think we're at a point where marksmen are simply flat-out too powerful. Burst per second really is a thing on the class, and it can happen as early as the 2-3 item mark on certain champions. While much of it is anecdotal evidence, there is now an abundance of clips of marksmen solo-killing multiple opponents at a time, even when fighting at a disadvantage, and just doing things they shouldn't be doing. The one way of finding out the power of marksmen would be to compare the performance of teams with at least one marksmen against that of teams with no marksman, but the issue is that no team would ever consider not picking a marksman, which I think is already a telltale enough sign that there's an issue.
Crit is a terribly designed stat: As an RNG damage boost, crit stands out like a sore thumb in a game that has evolved long past the point of that kind of bad design. It makes marksmen bursty against squishies, which should not be happening, and otherwise is a whole lot of power without gameplay. Crit in its current form should not exist in the game, period, and the fact that it's remained for so long, even after the Marksman Update, I think is a major problem with the marksman class.
Marksman itemization is far too strong, especially for its price: We're at a stage where a huge number of marksman items offer excellent defenses on top of top-tier offensive power, and while many other classes have had their itemization cheapened in exchange for fewer stats (tanks for example), marksmen have had the cost of their builds significantly lowered while gaining even more stats than before. Marksman itemization is the strongest it's even been, and it was already pretty damn strong to begin with. The focus on defensive effects in particular, especially life steal, is making the class far too resistant to incoming damage, and following the Assassin Update became a major reason why assassins often struggle to kill marksmen, and the design of life steal itself is tremendously conducive to snowballing, while also indicative of a strength marksmen should not have, i.e. drain tanking.
Support balance and itemization is far too slanted towards marksmen: Out of all the classes in the game, marksmen are the only one to be specifically catered to through other classes, which is why enchanter supports like Janna and Lulu offer AD and AS respectively, stats that favor marksmen the most. In addition, their itemization's extreme focus on defensive and protective effects works better for that class than anyone else, particularly when you factor in items that are truly designed for marksmen only, such as Ardent Censer. This not only makes marksmen even more overbearing, but also comes at a major cost to the diversity and fulfilment of supports, which are relegated more than ever before to being the marksman's pocket medic.
Marksmen aren't made to follow the rules, to everyone's loss: In a game where champions have received full reworks, sometimes several in sequence, just for being too reliable or focused on point-and-click effects (Ryze, for example), marksmen are still allowed to have even stronger point-and-click power, and whereas actual drain tanks have their sustain kept under tight control, marksmen are allowed to purchase life steal that can heal them for hundreds of hit points at a time. Assassins and mages were updated to have either reduced or delayed burst, but marksmen have been pushed in the opposite direction, including through items like Statikk Shiv, leading to several members of the class having top-tier, reliable upfront burst. In addition, classes have been separated so as to not borrow from the itemization of others, but marksmen are not only allowed, but encouraged to get stats like Lethality, even though the stat then had to be balanced around them, to the detriment of assassins. Overall, even if it may not be intended, it does feel like marksmen get special treatment when it comes to balancing, and while every class should obviously not be balanced or designed in the exact same way, the way marksmen have been treated over time has seriously warped the game around them, causing them to have far too much of an impact relative to every other player, and often demanding the care of their allies with no reciprocity involved.

#What I think marksmen should be:

Marksmen should be important, but not mandatory: I think it's high time we had more interchangeability between marksmen and other classes, as their mandatory status has led to some extreme positional and compositional stagnancy in League of Legends. Marksmen should have their unique strengths to bring to the table, that no other champion should be able to replace, but then again that should be the case for every champion out there. There are 6 classes but only 5 champions per team, so I think it would be far more interesting to have to make the difficult choice of sacrificing a class that could be any of them, than just fill out two slots with the essential marksman-support combo and let the rest fill out the team's burst or tanking needs.
Marksmen should be able to go anywhere, but so should other classes: Since Preseason 6 marksmen have expanded to solo lanes, the jungle and even sometimes the support position, which I think is a good thing. What is not a good thing, however, is that the bot lane carry position is still exclusive to them, and that needs to change. Again, stagnancy in certain lane-champion combinations negatively impacts on the game as a whole, and unclogging those positions could allow for a far more diverse metagame.
Individual marksmen should each have their own power curves, just like any other champion: I personally think that there are clear early game marksmen (Graves, Lucian, etc.), mid-game marksmen (Corki, Ezreal, etc.) and late-game marksmen (Ashe, Kog'Maw, etc.), just like any other class has champions that spike at different points in the game. Because of this, I think it needs to be established once and for all that power curves should be balanced around champions, not entire classes, and we should start giving these champions early, mid and late games on par with other non-marksmen with similar power curves. Doing this could also prevent the marksman from getting hard-focused every game by the enemy team, which would leave space for non-marksman carries and associated comps.
Marksmen should have exceptional unreliability alongside their reliable autoattacks: I think marksman design needs to be reversed in many ways: the class should keep a baseline amount of reliable power through autoattacks, but because of this all of their abilities should be very interactive and heavily outplayable. Steroids should be far more conditional, and what nukes, utility and CC marksmen get should also offer their opponents more opportunities than any other champion to play against them. Reliability should not be a unique strength, as it makes for kits that are boring and low on counterplay, and so we need to start equalizing it across champions and classes.
Marksman itemization needs to change completely: I think crit needs to be reworked, life steal needs to disappear completely (it makes the class legitimately tanky over time when they should be squishy at all times), and marksman items in general need to rely far more on interactive power, rather than just raw stats as they currently do. Marksman items don't need to be full of actives, but they should definitely have more conditional benefits that require actual risk and good play to shine. This should likely involve reworking the Kircheis Shard line.

Teridax68Sep 19, 201732 votes

Cont'd:

Marksmen should specialize in different things: Right now, the power of marksmen is often very generic, particularly since so much of it is centered around autoattacks, which are more or less the same for everyone. Taking a little bit of power off of their autoattacks and onto more unique forms of marksman power would allow them to specialize in things like dueling, teamfighting, utility, and so on without covering all of that at the same time. Because there would be less overlap across marksmen, it would open up a lot more diversity by itself, as long as each marksman also gets to put forth their own unique contributions.

#How I think we should go about changing marksmen:

Overhaul marksman itemization: Itemization I think is still the biggest problem with marksmen, as it's too stat-focused and has some really awfully-designed stats to boot, namely crit and life steal. Marksman itemization should focus on attack speed and interactive gameplay effects for the most part (attack speed should be the stat bound to marksmen, as is already mostly the case), and while they could have defensive options, the latter need to actually present real tradeoffs, and not give major offensive power on top of their defenses.
Rework steroids to be more conditional: This I think has more to do with specific marksmen than the class as a whole, but the marksman class needs to be scrubbed of on-demand stat steroids. Steroids should definitely exist, but they should always either be conditional upon making a play, or have some significant drawback that other players can exploit (so Jinx's Q, but a bit harsher). Double-edged abilities, such as a massive damage boost that makes the user highly vulnerable, could appear much more as a result.
Remove creep block: This may sound unrelated to marksmen, but I think is one of the main reasons why they bully melee champions so hard: for a ranged champion, it's easy to hit a melee opponent from behind the friendly wave, but for a melee champion to do the same, they need to wade through a whole bunch of minions with collision radii, and then walk back around as they're getting focused by the enemy wave. Removing this obstacle would make trading a bit fairer for melee champions, while also addressing the annoyances with random creep block catastrophes that we're all well aware of by now.
Remove movement speed as a stat on marksman items and buff the base speed of melee champions, while nerfing the rest of their mobility and stats accordingly: Also not 100% related to marksmen, but a big issue with how they interact with melee champions is through kiting, namely hard kiting. Hard kiting is the ability to completely keep an opponent at bay, and I think that should never happen in a game like League of Legends, because in spite of its difficulty, it has little to no counterplay and feels immensely frustrating to whoever's on the receiving end. It's also a big driving factor behind mobility creep on melee champions, who cannot really function by simply walking from one point to another. Making melee champions consistently faster would give them a unique advantage to match the range of ranged champions, and turn kiting into soft kiting, where ranged champions would only be able to hold melee opponents at bay for a limited time. In turn, this would also allow melee champions to be balanced in such a way that they don't need to one-shot squishy targets, or be overloaded on stats and mechanics, to have a chance against ranged foes.
For now, lower AD on marksman itemization: This is more of a short-term solution, but currently marksman damage is simply too high, and life steal as a result is too strong. Keeping attack speed and crit at similar levels (or bringing it up to 100% more easily), while lowering the raw amount of AD marksmen get on their own items, would place more emphasis on persistent damage over burst.

And that's just about my opinions on marksmen. There's likely more to be said, but this post is long enough as is, so I'll leave it at that and chip in on other players' comments.

EDIT: One thing I think is worth mentioning here is that I think the current state of marksmen hurts marksmen as well. I don't think it's fun for marksmen to get focused by 4+ players from the laning phase onwards, and being the team's VIP each time means there's also a lot of pressure to do things exactly right, as the entire outcome of the match can rest on how well you do even within the first few minutes. Marksmen deserve to carry and be amazing at what they do, but they should also have the option to take a back seat in fights and have someone else carry while they do their thing. Even when they do carry, marksmen shouldn't have to expect to get dogpiled by the enemy team if they or their frontline are an inch out of position, and when they do get attacked they shouldn't have to rely on oodles of defensive effects to not blow up each time, which can happen even against tanks. I think addressing other classes could also help marksmen and the game as a whole, and I think one of the things that could be done to that effect could be to separate the damage of tanks from their CC comboes, as otherwise they get to damage squishies far too hard and far too reliably.

WoonStruckSep 19, 20173 votes

I disagree with removing creep block. Removing creep block makes it EASIER for ranged to harass melee.

A better solution is to up caster minion range and aggro range, while minion aggro is now an on-attack thing, rather than on-hit.

Also, lower base MS on every ranged champion. Mages already generally follow this rule, but many ranged do not.

Teridax68Sep 19, 201710 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with removing creep block. Removing creep block makes it EASIER for ranged to harass melee.

Does it really? I've always considered creep block as this kind of wall between two opponents in lane, but I didn't really consider ranged champions moving through their own caster minion wave to evade attacks. Is that what would make it easier for ranged champions to harass melee targets?

{quoted}

A better solution is to up caster minion range and aggro range, while minion aggro is now an on-attack thing, rather than on-hit.

This I can agree with independently of creep block. I do think ranged champions should expect to get hit back if they autoattack their melee opponent, and it makes no sense for the call for help to work on basic attacks but no other damage source. However, my one concern with this is that increasing the range of caster minions also creates a wider radius for melee champions to remain under their focus, which means they'd be at risk of taking far more damage if they move in to trade, unless they go hide in a bush right after.

{quoted}

Also, lower base MS on every ranged champion. Mages already generally follow this rule, but many ranged do not.

Ranged champions as a rule never have more than 340 base movement speed, with the exception of Mini Gnar and Cassiopeia. However, that leaves melee champions with between 15 and 30 more base movement speed than their ranged opponents (and this is not counting the many melee champions with 340 movespeed or less), which isn't really all that significant. Considering how movement was far too slow and boots were mandatory when base movespeed was any lower, I think it would be better to instead buff the base movement speed of melee champions so that the slowest melee champion will always have more base movespeed than the fastest ranged champion, and then shorten key delays on certain abilities so that they aren't so easy to walk out of. That way, it would also be easier to implement counterplay that favors melee champions, as currently most counterplay does the opposite.

MasziiSep 19, 20174 votes

Last paragraph is a really bad idea imo. As an ADC you are supposed to be able to kite melee champs. If the melee champ is faster than you this becomes near impossible (unless you have a blink/dash). I mean can you imagine a Darius being faster than you are (which he sometimes will be when buying certain items) and just walking you down and killing you. That wont be healthy either.

xJLx MCHammerSep 19, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Last paragraph is a really bad idea imo. As an ADC you are supposed to be able to kite melee champs. If the melee champ is faster than you this becomes near impossible (unless you have a blink/dash). I mean can you imagine a Darius being faster than you are (which he sometimes will be when buying certain items) and just walking you down and killing you. That wont be healthy either.

But ADCs have more tools at their disposal to kite melee champions.

Melee champions should have telegraphed abilities that enable them to gap close. The ADC should be able to avoid these abilities but if they fail to do so, they should get punished

LOL works like this but the problem, items just enable the ADC to kite. The melee champion in response doesn't have standards items that enable him to prevent the kiting that ADCs grant

See the issue is, he ADC just has to build normally and the build path gives ADCs any CC, critic, armor shred, movement speed, attack speed, damage reduction, and even Life steal

The melee champions normally have to sacrifice certain stand to be granted that ability to negate the kiting

That's where most of the problems stem from. Not just ADCs but supports, too

NipsahoySep 19, 20178 votes

{quoted}

#What I think marksmen should be:

Marksmen should be important, but not mandatory: I think it's high time we had more interchangeability between marksmen and other classes, as their mandatory status has led to some extreme positional and compositional stagnancy in League of Legends. Marksmen should have their unique strengths to bring to the table, that no other champion should be able to replace, but then again that should be the case for every champion out there. There are 6 classes but only 5 champions per team, so I think it would be far more interesting to have to make the difficult choice of sacrificing a class that could be any of them, than just fill out two slots with the essential marksman-support combo and let the rest fill out the team's burst or tanking needs.

Marksmen should be able to go anywhere, but so should other classes: Since Preseason 6 marksmen have expanded to solo lanes, the jungle and even sometimes the support position, which I think is a good thing. What is not a good thing, however, is that the bot lane carry position is still exclusive to them, and that needs to change. Again, stagnancy in certain lane-champion combinations negatively impacts on the game as a whole, and unclogging those positions could allow for a far more diverse metagame.

Individual marksmen should each have their own power curves, just like any other champion: I personally think that there are clear early game marksmen (Graves, Lucian, etc.), mid-game marksmen (Corki, Ezreal, etc.) and late-game marksmen (Ashe, Kog'Maw, etc.), just like any other class has champions that spike at different points in the game. Because of this, I think it needs to be established once and for all that power curves should be balanced around champions, not entire classes, and we should start giving these champions early, mid and late games on par with other non-marksmen with similar power curves. Doing this could also prevent the marksman from getting hard-focused every game by the enemy team, which would leave space for non-marksman carries and associated comps.

Marksmen should have exceptional unreliability alongside their reliable autoattacks: I think marksman design needs to be reversed in many ways: the class should keep a baseline amount of reliable power through autoattacks, but because of this all of their abilities should be very interactive and heavily outplayable. Steroids should be far more conditional, and what nukes, utility and CC marksmen get should also offer their opponents more opportunities than any other champion to play against them. Reliability should not be a unique strength, as it makes for kits that are boring and low on counterplay, and so we need to start equalizing it across champions and classes.

Marksman itemization needs to change completely: I think crit needs to be reworked, life steal needs to disappear completely (it makes the class legitimately tanky over time when they should be squishy at all times), and marksman items in general need to rely far more on interactive power, rather than just raw stats as they currently do. Marksman items don't need to be full of actives, but they should definitely have more conditional benefits that require actual risk and good play to shine. This should likely involve reworking the Kircheis Shard line.

Removing crit and lifesteal would make the class unplayable honestly. You couldn't even think of playing a marksmen with an assassin in the game or a burst mage. It would be open season. You do realize that late game tanks with warmogs can be chunked to 10% hp and come back in 20 seconds full hp right? The class wouldn't even be functional with those changes. It'd be like oh..Xerath hit me with a Q from a screen and a half away. Good luck everyone I have to go base now since I have no way to sustain and I die in two hits. I can't crit anything so that assassin will always have a guarenteed free kill since I pose no threat to him whatsoever...

Not really good ideas imo. Crit is the only thing that makes marksmen scary. Maybe the crit rate you can get to is too much but not being able to crit would destroy the class.

I mean you realize it's basically an arms race right? Melee champs can delete you in 2-3 hits late game if they get in range which is counteracted somewhat by being squishy because they can kill you fairly easy but they also put themselves at risk because the marksmen has high damage so if they don't get that kill they might die. There has to be some kind of trade off not just having melee carries running around as gods deleting any squishy they encounter because there's no burst damage or sustain whatsoever.

I honestly don't think Marksmen are much of a problem. I mean the items and class has been the same for many seasons over and it hasn't always had people crying for nerfs. Some changes have come in but a lot of bigger changes have come in around the class really. Supports have very powerful item buys now when it earlier seasons they had one or two/ The meta completely favors marksmen because tanks are a thing (guess who kills tanks the best??) and that pushes out assassins and burst mages fall off late game versus tanks.

I'm not saying marksmen are perfect by any means I'm sure the itemization needs some tweaks but lets not forget at the beginning of this season games were ending so quickly that marksmen really weren't that effective (that's why the adc 2k17 thing started whether you agree with it or not) and there were legitimate concerns about not being able to have much of an impact in the game before it was decided. We haven't seen that dramatic changes to marksmen or their items specifically that would really completely change that hence that leads me to believe its other factors.

You'll see teams buying 2-3 lockets, knights vow, ardent censer, face of the mountain and enchanters are popular. Not uncommon to see 2k hp shields come out in pro play to save a marksmen and you have redemption for healing.

Think it through if you nerf marksmen then tanks will be absolutely brutal to stop because they are the only thing keeping them in check. You won't see assassins come back at all or anything like that.

Teridax68Sep 19, 201718 votes

{quoted}

Removing crit and lifesteal would make the class unplayable honestly. You couldn't even think of playing a marksmen with an assassin in the game or a burst mage. It would be open season.

If marksmen cannot survive combat without resorting to drain tanking, then damage in the game is simply too high. As it currently stands, life steal means burst champions need enough burst to be absolutely sure to kill the marksman within the first second or so of combat, as otherwise the latter can heal back all the damage they took and negate the burst champion's play. Effectively, life steal is the reason burst champions have to have so much damage in the first place. Asking marksmen to have the same kind of health recovery as tanks, a class meant to be durable, isn't particularly fair either when you consider the fact that assassins, mages and supports have no such means of healing for large amounts later on, unless they also go for life steal.

If you doubt me, I recommend you take a look at other MOBAs, including Heroes of the Storm, which features ranged autoattackers that are viable and often quite strong, but which doesn't resort to major defenses, life steal or healing in order to have them succeed in combat. Despite this lack of sustain, those characters do fine, because damage in the game is at a reasonable enough level that they don't need to be durable just to function.

{quoted}

Not really good ideas imo. Crit is the only thing that makes marksmen scary. Maybe the crit rate you can get to is too much but not being able to crit would destroy the class.

If being able to burst squishies, something that marksmen shouldn't be able to do consistently in the first place, is the only think making marksmen a threat (which is patently false, as they've always been mandatory even without it), then what you are actually saying is that the class is fundamentally poorly designed, and can only succeed by doing something it's not supposed to do. I don't think this is the case, and the success of on-hit, CDR and Lethality marksmen in the past have shown that crit is not even all that necessary a stat for the class. Some champions would definitely need adjustments if the stat were removed, but the class as a whole has shown time and again that it can do perfectly fine without having to resort to burst.

Over InnsmouthSep 19, 20179 votes

You're a fucking champ mate. Well spoken and (from my eyes) absolutely true, including the continued part below. Maybe consider making a new thread just for this?

BALDG1VEN BOOMERSep 19, 201727 votes

I got two ideas specially targeting ADCs, with the RFC and Shiv combo. Ever since the price reduction these two items have been built on every single ADC and is where the problem currently lies. Even if it's not both most opt for Shiv. Also some other small things they could clean up.

First:

Let's talk about the almighty duo of Shiv and RFC, both of these are pretty much built on every ADC current and comes at good cost with good rewards, firstly I'm surprised no one said anything about Shivs burst damage, there have been times where I've been bursted for almost 400 alone by shiv, that's almost equivalent to a any skill in league that is maxed with 5 points. The fact that it the damage scales with crit strike is completely ludicrous,_ remove it_. Shiv can still critically strike to keep your butter on your bread.

RFC is pretty self explanatory, most Marksman are already gaining insane amounts of range like Tristana, Twitch and whatever else, the item just makes kiting more efficient and overall just causes player frustration because it champions that already gain an insane amount of range get more, there needs to be a max amount of range that if someone out scales it they shouldn't be allowed to buy it, having play against a Twitch hitting you at nearly 900 range sure isn't fun.

Also RFC currently, does 50 - 120 (based on level) bonus on-hit magic damage, this could be lowered slightly? Maybe? Maybe not?

Second:

_ Warlord's Bloodlust as their keystone further synergies with the passive that makes attacks become energized 25% faster_.

Just a big why on this?

Why?

Straight up shouldn't work like this.

Third:

Ninja Tabi, depending if the above goes through, if not then revert Tabi back to 12%.

Fourth:

GA, this isn't ADC specific but find a better build path for GA so it doesn't cater towards only specific one class/users, this is a late game item that is needed on practically everyone if the game goes that long, item 1026 item 1037 maybe having these two items with a combine cost would be a little better. Having two lives late versus having one just feels like you're being fucked over especially on other classes who don't built AD as their primary damage.

Lastly, the most obvious, make support items not too interwined with ADCs. While their burst damage alone is the issue, their survivability goes through the roof with things like item 3107 item 3504 item 3174 item 3190 item 3109 item 3046 , So yeah introducing things like Redemption that had more of a better team impact than Ardent that only cater towards ADCs is just an example of distinguishing that.

Thanks for reading, now here's a Pantheon and Lux sticker for sweg.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] [sg-lux]

One35Sep 19, 20179 votes

Agreed on all points, especially the last one. The Support should definitely be the team's support for the most part, not just the ADC's. Having the two so intertwined makes games depend too heavily on Bot lane winning.

WDG DevourSep 19, 20173 votes

It's not possible for a support to be present in 3 different solo lanes during the laning phase so what are you suggesting?...

Mid to late supports do heal and shield the entire team effectively supporting the team.

The support has to Lane with someone and the most ideal is the ADC who have zero self survivability. Top and mid both have kits/stats to survive early lane solo.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

It's not possible for a support to be present in 3 different solo lanes during the laning phase so what are you suggesting?...

Mid to late supports do heal and shield the entire team effectively supporting the team.

The support has to Lane with someone and the most ideal is the ADC who have zero self survivability. Top and mid both have kits/stats to survive early lane solo.

marksmen have some of the strongest and safest early levels in the game. they also have often decent self peel mechanics.

how does any of what you said even make an argument for making support effects marksmen specific instead of generally benefitting different types of carries equally?

WDG DevourSep 19, 20173 votes

The support effects are marksmen specific because supports lane with marksmen in the early game... common sense. However as the game develops supports can help any laner. Ardent censer doesn't just work on marksmen only, it can be applied to to any carry , mid/top laters or junglers also. You do realize that?

What kind of "specific support effects" do you want supports to give to benefit mid laners, top laners or junglers? As you seem to be implying other carries deserve some specific benefits although the support will spend most of the game with his/her ADC... lol

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20177 votes

{quoted}

The support effects are marksmen specific because supports lane with marksmen in the early game... common sense.

nope. there is nothing that makes sense about this.

first of all, you already pointed out that supports only lane with them in the early game, but their job is to support the team, not the marksman in specific.

if you made support effects agnostic towards the champions that benefit from them, then marksmen would still benefit from them in the early game while theyre laning with supports, but it wouldnt tie their effectiveness together the entire game.

supports could chose to switch to support another carry on the team aswell instead of being forced to commit to supporting an ineffective marksman just because his buffs and effects dont synergize properly with other types of champions, even when they lost their lane.

WDG DevourSep 19, 20173 votes

So your essentially suggesting that supports have 0 synergy with their laning partner due to the effectiveness achieved throughout the entire game. You want a DUO LANE to have no synergy whatsoever... that is so strange. That would be like a top laner and mid laner just being in the botlane together providing no synergy with each other. Just a fiesta like HOTS or something...

If there is no synergy there is no strategy. The fact that they synergies and are effective TOGETHER (dependency makes an interesting dynamic, dynamic changes when they are not together making them significantly weaker) makes for interesting gameplay IMO as opposed to ARAM like fiesta.

I'm curious to know what agnostic support effects you want supports to have that wouldn't increase the effectiveness (or benefit the marksmen they lane with in any way) apart from perhaps vision?

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20177 votes

{quoted}

So your essentially suggesting that supports have 0 synergy with their laning partner

are you actually stupid?

class agnostic synergy is still synergy. 0 synergy with marksmen would mean that support buffs have no effect on them. pretty much the SAME ardent censer does for ap carries right now.

im not asking to remove synergy between supports and marksmen, but to change their items and effects to support other types of carries just as well as marksmen.

ive clearly said this a couple of times now and its getting frustrating.

do i need to take out crayons and start drawing you a picture before you understand? or are you just lacking reading comprehension?

WDG DevourSep 19, 20171 votes

What part of duo lane are you not understanding? Junglers, Top and Mid laners do not lane with a support nor do they need a support to survive so it would be redundant. They all have kits with far more survivability than the glasscannon that is ADC.

You really need to stop suggesting that Ardent Censer does absolutely nothing for AP carries because it does...

Also yes pls get a "crayon out" and describe what kind of item you want supports to have that would buff the already self sufficient jungler, mid and top laner even further...?

Glory ln DeathSep 19, 20174 votes

One of the main reasons many players want supports' kits and items to not be 100% geared towards ADCs is so that ADCs are no longer the only viable option in bot lane.

On release, Lulu used to give AP with her Whimsy. If she still had that, she would be an ideal support to lane with a mage. Soraka used to give mana to allies, which would be absolutely amazing for bot lane mages. If Zilean were able to reduce allies' cooldowns, not just his own, he would be a good support for mages and other ability-reliant champions. Other supports could be given abilities that benefit divers or assassins or even tanks, rather than specifically ADCs, allowing more diversity in the duo lane.

There are ADC-specific support items such as Ardent and Zekes, which primarily benefit auto attackers (and no, Ardent does basically nothing for mages - they have very slow attack speed and usually don't want to be in auto range of enemy champions, so they won't benefit from the on-hit damage or attack speed). However, there are no support items that specifically benefit other classes. Nothing that grants CDR after heals, or amplifies ability damage for a short time, etc.

Change those, and you make it possible for more than just ADCs to go bot lane as the carry.

WDG DevourSep 19, 20171 votes

Oh so you want the game to have the versatility of ADCs and APCs in the botlane... I don't really understand why you would want the meta to change in this way.

We have the top lane which houses both ADCs and APCs already. The mid lane usually the home of APCs but also ADCs. Bot Lane houses a sustain AA damage champion and a support who helps this AA based champion. In the botlane we have high magic damage ADCs such as Corki and Kog'Maw for versatility.

We don't need a mage in the botlane, mages deal burst damage when they combo their abilities, they do not provide AA sustained damage. A support buffing a traditional mage in the botlane does not suit their kit, does not suit the meta and don't not suit this game and seems like a really odd proposal to me.

A support buffing a mage (mages who already have so much strong CC tools etc in their kit) PLUS the supports CC tools sounds insane and a mage+support would smash a AA ADC+support the latter having no ability to do burst damage but does sustained damage over time.

All in all, I'm happy that Riot is smart and keeping the meta and the bot lane for ADCs primarily and a support to protect the ranged Auto Attack sustained glass cannon. Mages are more than capable of solo carrying a game in top and mid lane as it is and I do not believe (and I think Riot also doesn't believe) we need Mages partnering with supports in the botlane....

Mages have kits that are pretty whole and complete overall to survive on their own, whereas bot lane is a duo that is on dependant on each other to succeed. Support being the utility/survivability kit and adcs being pure sustain damage output kit. Combining together to be a constant threat/carry.

Glory ln DeathSep 19, 20173 votes

Top: Tanks, Juggernauts, Divers, Skirmishers, Battle Mages, and the occasional Assassins and Marksmen

Jungle: Tanks, Divers, Assassins, Marksmen

Mid: Mages, Assassins, Marksmen, and a few Divers/Skirmishers and Tanks

Support: Tanks, Enchanters/Catchers, Mages, and the occasional Marksmen

Bot: Marksmen

No, that's an issue that needs to be resolved. It is not healthy for the game to have a position that is 100% exclusive to one small group of champions from the same class.

It is an issue that Riot is aware of and is actively trying to fix. Hence Morde's rework intending him as a bot lane carry, Yasuo being designed to function in bot originally, and players being encouraged to keep taking Ziggs bot earlier this year.

Riot wants bot lane to be more than just 100% marksmen, it's just a very difficult challenge.

WDG DevourSep 19, 20176 votes

Bro no, mages do not need to build Guardian Angel in anyway as you already have a stasis effect with Zhonyas... If mages can build both GA and Zhonyas that's two stasis effects which is OP, not good and creates cheesy gameplay and stalling fights. That's why GA was made into a stasis effect for ADs only to begin with. It's simply unfair for mages to get two stasis effects and ADs only one, no AD can build Zhonyas and GA...

If they made GA for mages ever again they will definitely need a Zhonyas for ADs for balance purposes. But personally I like how two DIFFERENT stasis effects are you unique depending on whether your a ADC or APC.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERSep 19, 20175 votes

They changed GA because they didn't want tanks to overload on Armor/MR.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Piccaboo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GVyexyZR,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-09-19T02:51:44.305+0000)

They changed GA because they didn't want tanks to overload on Armor/MR.

if you overload on armor/mr, you get dumped by % penetration.

thats why people dont like to buy resistance items without health anymore. item 3035 is a 1300 gold item. g.a. plus stoneplate would have made more than 5000 gold.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERSep 19, 20174 votes

I know, but that was Riots reasoning not mine.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Bro no, ADCs mages do not need to build Guardian Angel in anyway as you already have a stasis effect with Zhonyas... If mages can build both GA and Zhonyas that's two stasis effects which is OP, not good and creates just gameplay and stalling fights. That's why GA was made into a stasis effect for ADs only to begin with. It's simply unfair for mages to get two stasis effects and ADs only one, no AD can build Zhonyas and GA...

If they made GA for mages ever again they will definitely need a Zhonyas for ADs for balance purposes. But personally I like how two DIFFERENT stasis effects are you unique depending on whether your a ADC or APC.

a mage with g.a. would sacrifice damage for extra survivability just like anyone else, and would be unlikely to burst you down.

item 3157 is a low ap item aswell, which would further reduce the theat of the mage.

this seems like a fair tradeoff to me. actually more of a stupid decision to buy both, since youre less likely to still be able to fulfill your job.

MalzaSep 19, 201721 votes

I agree with Riot Ponytail, marksmen have been overpowered for too long.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 19, 20174 votes

Thought im the only one enjoying riot ponytails dev blog.

RalanrSep 19, 201721 votes

If I could share my thoughts on Marksmen, I'd like to talk about crit.

IMO, crit itself has no downsides as the game goes on and the RNG factor of it early is extremely annoying. Like how a level 2 Tryndamere kills you with a lucky crit. You don't feel outplayed and if the dies because he doesn't crit then he doesn't feel outplayed.

Crit is also supposed to be an anti-tank stat when combined with a LW item, better than lethality anyway. Except Crit is effective against everyone, it's incredibly effective against squishies. This leaves Marksmen the ability to kill everyone equally. Now if the trade off was them dying easily then I'd be fine, but that barely shows up in a 1v1 due to how lifesteal works. And in teamfights? Shields ahoy you'll never kill an ADC.

IMO the game is too reliant on Botlane doing well in this meta, perhaps more than it has ever been. I feel this needs to change.

ModKnightsKemplarSep 19, 201721 votes

What if crit gave you a chance to ignore some % of enemy armor?

I mean, realistically, that's kind of what a crit is, right? A hit in the [unarmored] sweet spot? Would that be totally crazy?

edit: I have a bad habit of posting half-formed thoughts. Lemme clarify real quick. What I mean is, since Ralanr here said the problem with crit on squishies made crit too strong, I thought: If crit actually helped adcs do what they were supposed to do (bust tanks), instead of bursting squishies real hard (which is what assassins are supposed to do), wouldn't that make current adc itemization a lot more healthy, pretty much instantly?

RalanrSep 19, 20177 votes

Right.

IMO I do think we could nerf supports down and maybe tanks, but they I feel are doing their jobs. Shielding ADCs however needs a bigger nerf, I'd rather have another form of peel be popular so Assassins can do their jobs after weaving in and out.

MordepoolSep 19, 20172 votes

If Crit became flat armor removal for say the next attack Tanks could actually feel tanky vs everyone else fulfilling that fantasy Squishys would have time to react and actually play vs a Marksman.

Not seeing a downside to this idea

ModKnightsKemplarSep 19, 20173 votes

I thought about this all night and I still don't see a downside, either.

What this change would do is allow marksmen to do more damage to tanks, and less damage to other roles. That is exactly what marksmen need. I've seen at least one person say that they think tank busting should be a champion-specific thing, but that's not sustainable. There needs to be a class that can damage tanks in a reliable way; so far, that's marksman. I think Riot could balance around this. I believe in it.

PrinceOfStormsSep 19, 20176 votes

Delete GA (or make it not an ADC item) and one of the following

Critical Strike
Lifesteal
The ability to get attack speed from items that aren't Zerker boots.

Now ADCs aren't cancer.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 201726 votes

{quoted}

Delete GA (or make it not an ADC item) and one of the following

Critical Strike

Lifesteal

The ability to get attack speed from items that aren't Zerker boots.

Now ADCs aren't cancer.

item 3026 was fine when it was a purely defensive item.

a marksman who wanted a second life had to dedicate an item slot to defense instead of more damage. i dont understand why this was ever touched.

PrinceOfStormsSep 19, 201715 votes

It was changed from being a purely defensive item because Riot didn't like that tanks could buy it and become even harder to kill, and because it "felt bad" to have to buy an item on an ADC that didn't provide any additional offensive power.

BS reasoning. If GA was so busted on tanks it should have received the axe entirely.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 20177 votes

{quoted}

It was changed from being a purely defensive item because Riot didn't like that tanks could buy it and become even harder to kill, and because it "felt bad" to have to buy an item on an ADC that didn't provide any additional offensive power.

BS reasoning. If GA was so busted on tanks it should have received the axe entirely.

i cant see this item being anywhere near useful with stoneplate. seems anti synergetic, since when youre buying stoneplate, the next thing you want is more health.

this is why pure resistance items like item 3110 fell out of favour. resistance stacking without health stacking is too easily countered by penetration.

DeathBurstSep 19, 20174 votes

I disagree. In reality, ADC wouldn't dedicate a slot to defense, they would just not buy any defense at all. New GA is pretty fine. It's still interesting for carries to buy it, but it's still much less damage than a truly offensive item.

Critmaster GarenSep 19, 201710 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. In reality, ADC wouldn't dedicate a slot to defense, they would just not buy any defense at all. New GA is pretty fine. It's still interesting for carries to buy it, but it's still much less damage than a truly offensive item.

the new g.a. is not fine. it gives adc burst resistance without a tradoff.

thats the equivalence of giving juggernauts a dash active on a ad/health item.

marksmen used to buy g.a. when they needed the extra protection just like other classes did in the past. i dont know where youve been playing these last couple of years, but if an adc got bursted down to fast and didnt get a g.a. the guy was retarded.