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New Winions have me concerned...

ModKnightsKemplar··288 votes·32,814 views

Out of all the changes in these patch notes, the only thing that makes me nervous is the minion buffs for the winning side... I want to concisely explain why.

  1. If the winning team can't close the game with the tools they already have from being ahead, why do they deserve to win?

  2. More importantly, one of the biggest defining parts of MOBAs, including LoL, is wave mechanics. Now, waves won't behave in a predictable manner, because there will be power differences between the minions.

It's the second point that has me much more concerned. I think this is super questionable.

  • Shoving a lane when behind? Don't worry, it'll come right back.
  • Leave a lane even and go do another objective? Oops, looks like the enemy team has one more tower. It's pushing to us now!
  • You and one enemy are split pushing different side waves, while the 4v4 in mid dances back and forth? Well, if you're losing, you automatically lose that trade. Too bad!

I just don't think it's a healthy way for a team to push an advantage. Dragon changes implemented were so early game champs have a way to 'scale' to late game. The winning team should have more items. The winning team should have more vision. Having better minions is the wrong way to give a winning team power.

So, anyway, I voiced my opinion. We'll see how it shakes out. There's a poll. You should take it.

EDIT: I realized an even bigger problem I have with the change. Clarity. Since you can't predict what the wave will do, it significantly hurts clarity. Big issue for me.

Put a different way/good test of concept: Imagine explaining this to a new player. It's gonna confuse them. The whole premise of the game is that the minions are evenly matched without champion influence.

261 Comments

MAN OF INTELLECT74 votes

I definitely agree; this will only increase the "gg we are three kills behind let's ff at 20" mentality.

Teams that are behind will simply feel even more hopeless.

I prefer closer games; anyone with me?

ModKnightsKemplar40 votes

Oh, I'm with you 100%. If I wanted an endless snowball fest, I'd play HoN.

EDIT: I will say that I can sympathize with Meddler and co. There may be a way to tune this better, and I eagerly await their new ideas. I really don't like the incremental changes to minion strength, though.

Inhibitors and super minions are the mechanic in the game that helps you auto-push waves, and having that power gated behind inhib helps teams understand how to prevent that from happening. It gives an objective to play around for this benefit. And if you think inhibs aren't enough, you have Baron. And if you don't like Baron, you have Dragon. How many snowball options does the winning team need?

pinkyblossom12 votes

Patch 6.24:

If a team is ahead 6538 gold and ahead 7 lvls combined; a flower spurs in their base that if stepped on deletes the enemy nexus.

They are trying to make smurfing faster and easier? ...maybe?

ArtemisWinter15 votes

IMHO riot, please restore tower resistance, do not mess with minions. I know you wanna make things new and different but when you mess with the foundation of your game you will ultimately destroy it. #savethelanes #savethewaves. One last thing if you want to build this into a better long lasting game keep the foundation from season 5 it was perfect I am utterly baffled you wanted to mess with it so much.

RiotMeddler35 votes

Can definitely understand your concerns. We do think there's a useful lever in tuning minions based off game state, I'd imagine it's a mechanic that will need a decent amount of follow up tuning to get to the right spot though (when should it be triggered, how large an effect should it be, how obviously communicated does it need to be etc). It's also a change that from what we've seen in testing looks bigger on paper than it's felt in game (it's been on the PBE for a couple of weeks for example without anyone that I'm aware of commenting on it).

The other big thing to mention is that it's also a change we've shifted from 5.22 to 5.23 due to a bug we found right at the end of the testing period, so the initial preseason patch won't have the minion changes in yet. Once 5.23's out though it'd be great to get a bunch of feedback on how people are finding the changes once they've had a few days to play with them in game, rather than just assess on paper.

JnFnRu5 votes

My concern is. Why are the winning teams helped to win rather than giving the loosing team a push?

The loosing team should get +10 dmg for minions vs the winning one to give them a chance to comeback. Otherwise you might also put surrender one forward to 10 minutes just incase the enemy are getting 7 kills before that and its gg.

I always wondered this also about baron and drake. Say if winning team takes all the objectives and has 4 drakes already, the baron buff they receive should be less powerful rather than a loosing team who contests and gets a surprise ace and baron buff they should get it to be the usual helpfulness.

I don't know why you encourage winning quickly over helping to keep the odds even.

Its gonna be some smurfs in plat rushing towers and kills and its a sure win for their team.

KingSlayer50812 votes

The loosing team should get +10 dmg for minions vs the winning one to give them a chance to comeback

No. This is pretty much textbook bad design. The idea is that you are unduely punishing good play by giving an advantage to the person in last that they dont need to work towards, much like the blue turtle shell in Mario Kart that rewards you for being in last place by taking out the person in first. Even for a wacky party racer its frustrating and unfun, forget about LoL.

League already has a lot of comeback mechanics in fact, primarily in terms of shutdown gold, which rewards a team playing from behind by helping them close out the gap if they can earn it. This is not nearly as bad as "the blue shell effect" because it can only be obtained through excellent play and doesn't actually give an advantage to the loser, but many people still feel it causes low end games to become and endless seasaw that doesn't really reward the better team. It is similar to playing Monopoly with the free parking houserule, you infuse a lot of resources into a system that will statistically reward the worst players the most to try to keep them in the game and it just results in drawn out games that at best have a known outcome that will take an extra 10 minutes and at worst adding a random delay to the game that may reward an unskilled team enough for them to recover through sheer luck and attrition.

Good game design both rewards the better team while also allowing interesting play states where the game's outcome is still in question. I don't think that the minion buff is a remotely good way to do it because it is a lot of invisible power that can work to the detrement of the winning team and makes minions a really unpredictable force, but LoL really needs more "win more" mechanics, a power boost only avalable to teams preforming well to help them close out games.

That said I think the new changes to tower durability will do much more to help dominant teams close out games than the minion changes. Losing two towers in a row early game will be absolutely devistating and will make a clear loser in lane an outright match throw in most cases, and teams should be encouraged to play around that rather than having minions invisibly start self pushing.

That said as a lot of people noted this will definitely have a lot of interesting effects in regards to stall outs by actively punishing winning teams who safe farm, which is frankly a problem. It may just work out.

Amuq the Native9 votes

but LoL really needs more "win more" mechanics, a power boost only avalable to teams preforming well to help them close out games.

That's exactly what Baron is. Why do you want more mechanisms?

Phoquelesanimaux5 votes

I never commented on it because I thought it was just the players or some broken stats of the reworked champions. Now with your patch note I know why it was so snowbally. (I made a thread with the same nickname on the PBE board)

DapperinoCappucc8 votes

{quoted}

Can definitely understand your concerns. We do think there's a useful lever in tuning minions based off game state, I'd imagine it's a mechanic that will need a decent amount of follow up tuning to get to the right spot though (when should it be triggered, how large an effect should it be, how obviously communicated does it need to be etc). It's also a change that from what we've seen in testing looks bigger on paper than it's felt in game (it's been on the PBE for a couple of weeks for example without anyone that I'm aware of commenting on it).

The other big thing to mention is that it's also a change we've shifted from 5.22 to 5.23 due to a bug we found right at the end of the testing period, so the initial preseason patch won't have the minion changes in yet. Once 5.23's out though it'd be great to get a bunch of feedback on how people are finding the changes once they've had a few days to play with them in game, rather than just assess on paper.

I uh. I actually came into this thread thinking that I'd just played a game with these new minions as we were losing and had all of the minions constantly shoving up against us but uh. Just an odd coincidence I suppose. This post made me laugh at myself though. Damn confirmation bias op.

Flemman31 votes

so, how does this work when a team have an AFK (taking his team average level down and ensure buff minion for enemy team) Isn't that an overkill blow for the 4 poeple team (and the +2 gold stuff is also lose in that case)

DeusVult12 votes

I agree, this will make 4v5s with an AFK even more imbalanced if it is set up the way it was currently described in the patch notes. Because starting at level 2, the enemy team will get 10% increased minion damage and their minions will take 1 less minion damage. Because their team average level is 2, and the other teams is 1.8

If the team without the AFK can take 2 or more towers by the time they reach level 7/8, they will get the Enrage minion bonuses (90% more minion damage, -7 minion damage received) leading to complete auto pushes. Because 7+7+7+7+7=35 and 7+7+7+7+1=29. 35/5=7, while 29/5=4.19 so 3 levels higher.

TLDR new mechanics for minions make AFK games impossible to win

Nivloc7 votes

Agreed, that's a huge problem.

Yxion the Yordle24 votes

The only positive side I see to it is if the "winning" team minions are pushing harder, it does mean they will potentially push down towers on your end if left alone, but enemy minions will come to your side of the map faster allowing for safer farming. (This is the only potential "bright-side" I see to it. I will reserve judgement for after seeing how this plays out in game. (Maybe maker the winions give the losing team slightly more xp?)

ModKnightsKemplar16 votes

I considered that. But that's definitely not Riot's intent, so they won't implement the XP bonus for the losing side. They are trying to avoid the games that drag on for no reason. I understand that, completely, but there are other ways to make that happen.

Make dragon a 3-stack deal (and lower the benefits some, of course). That way, a team that is way ahead can really push their advantage with that. That's just one idea. Changing the premise of the game is not the answer.

Retillin5 votes

Well Riot has a habit of if something they add/change doesn't have the desired effect, they back off that idea and move onto something else. For good and for bad.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

I trust Riot to make the right call. I am not a typical QQ'er (not that anyone thinks they are). But yes, I agree with you. If there's big issues, they will revert, but I think we should speak up about what we want, too!

This is exactly the kind of change that could go unnoticed, especially at lower tiers of play. Threads like this one will help visibility on the topic, and people can weigh in. That's why I attached a poll, and I think the results are speaking for themselves. Hopefully some Rioters notice, and we can all monitor the change when it goes live.

DeathToEcchi4 votes

I think it will be MOST noticed at lower tiers of play. At my elo, people tend to just push mid constantly. Games often are decided by whoever wins mid, simply cause that's where people group. Rewarding taking towers might push the game into a more balanced state at those elo's.

RiotRiot Axes14 votes

Just to clarify a bit - the fact that this can help you start a comeback is definitely a part of our intent here. We didn't implement any new XP bonus for the losing side because the losing side already gets more XP from minions.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Well, I feel equal parts foolish and glad that I made that comment.

Foolish, because of course you did.

Glad, because I don't think that point came across to very many of us, at least not based on the patch notes. Thanks for clearing that up a bit!

OldDirtay13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEtYAfoc,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2015-11-11T17:41:22.985+0000)

Just to clarify a bit - the fact that this can help you start a comeback is definitely a part of our intent here. We didn't implement any new XP bonus for the losing side because the losing side already gets more XP from minions.

so to clarify your clarification

giving the enemy minions power boosts to the enemy team in lead.....is a comeback buff????

please....explain how you got to this conclusion?

RiotMeddler15 votes

If the enemy minions are a bit more powerful they'll be by your towers more often (they'll win the minion versus minion pushes). That results in a situation where the enemy either capitalizes on that, and takes further objectives, or your team farms and catches up. It's a similar principle to how Baron buff now works, giving you a temporary advantage that, if used well, can be leveraged for extra gain, but, if not used, gives the enemy a way to get back into the game if they play well (in contrast with guaranteed, permanent advantage that can result in slow, safe, 'get further ahead' play without much of interest going on).

OldDirtay15 votes

{quoted}

If the enemy minions are a bit more powerful they'll be by your towers more often (they'll win the minion versus minion pushes). That results in a situation where the enemy either capitalizes on that, and takes further objectives, or your team farms and catches up. It's a similar principle to how Baron buff now works, giving you a temporary advantage that, if used well, can be leveraged for extra gain, but, if not used, gives the enemy a way to get back into the game if they play well (in contrast with guaranteed, permanent advantage that can result in slow, safe, 'get further ahead' play without much of interest going on).

thats legit the dumbest thing ive ever heard

its a comeback buff because.....

enemies can capitalize on the pushes, or you teammate now has to go deal with it while they 5v4 mid?

DEF seems like a comeback buff i had no idea what i was thinking

btw how does using the baron buff in any way shape or form "gives the enemy a way to get back into the game"

looking at the stats all baron does is help, care to explain again? this time with any logic whatsoever?

TotalJerk11 votes

care to explain again? this time with any logic whatsoever?

Do you care to show a basic level of civility?

Criomhthann11 votes

He's mean, but not really wrong. The only benefit to having your lanes push is more farm, however, all the lanes will be pushing and you will be giving up objectives to handle it.

If you try to stop them from doing Baron or Dragon, you lose towers and they get further ahead. They don't even have to do Baron or dragon because they win just by wasting your time.

If you try to stop minions from taking towers, they take Baron/Dragon and get further ahead.

It makes split pushing stronger AND it makes Baron pushing stronger.

More minions being at your doorstep only gives you a chance at coming back if you ignore that there is a whole other team trying to make you lose. It's a very fragmented, and frankly absurd, approach.

ZT Xperimentor18 votes

They're repeating the initial problem back in season 1 & 2, taking an inhibitor spawned super minions in EVERY lane. I cannot facepalm hard enough that they continue to remove any counterplay & comeback tactics.

Phoquelesanimaux3 votes

Also, the turrets are buffed over the time, so you gonna have an harder time than your opponent to destroy turrets when you lost a lane.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Is it just me or do turrets feel weaker early game too?

FaerKhan5 votes

Turrets used to be actually scary. As in, you basically couldn't tower dive early game without dying yourself. Now they just shoot marshmallows at you.

Rubber Jesus2 votes

Those "laser cannons" on inhib turrets make it insanely easy to use assassins to tower dive, burst down a squishy behind turret, and get out before the higher damage starts. I hate it. Plus, all 5 can off tank the turret, switching agro between one another. I wish they hurt again, too.

Retillin14 votes

The whole thing is, they want a quicker game. But why they are going this route I have no idea.

AtheosisX10 votes

Fixing what isn't broken. That seems to be the theme with season 6.

MaizeCraze9 votes

Not to mention that Riot changed the way inhibitors worked because destroying one inhib used to give bonuses to ALL minions in EVERY lane. This was clearly overpowered, and they nerfed the bonuses to be to only the lane in which the inhib was destoyed, which makes sense both logically and gameplay wise.

Lost Hp7 votes

What a screwd up system >_> [zombie-brand-facepalm]

So the team with player X get punished

Because player X never joins the game Because player X whent AFK Because player X left the game Because player X disconnects serveral times Because player X dies to much Because player X is not good at last hitting

[zombie-brand-clap]

Shoud it not be that the team with player X gets stronger minions

Because player X never joins the game Because player X whent AFK Because player X left the game

Ultraboomer6 votes

I think it's a cool idea for minion to get stronger if your team averages 3 levels ahead of the enemy. I also think that it's unfair that a slowpush is going to be harder to set up if you're not winning lane. I also think it's a bad idea to implement this systm in the same patch you release the rift herald, who's buff is meant specifically for killing the outer turret. also, they are making turrets easier to kill overall making this minion buff even easier to acquire. I think on paper this might sound fair to someone, but coupled with all these other changes even they would say that riot should have waited until 5.23 or 5.24 before considering releasing this.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

You are right, but I'm a step past that. I think making minions unevenly matched undermines the premise of the game itself, and I have deeper issues with it than strictly balance.

Shahamut8 votes

I disagree. I would rather them release this now and get a solid look on how this will affect gameplay so they can act on their findings asap.

These changes definitely make me nervous, but since its only minion vs minion advantage, it does give the passive team's opponents better opportunity to farm since they waves will usually be in safer areas, rather than it rotating back and forth and the gold gain being even.

It should encourage teams to push and finish rather than just sit and stall a game cuz "its fun stomping the defeated" and offer a way out via farm against the people who stall out games just to make it last longer.

All in all, we will just have to wait and see how it goes.

Leonerdo6 votes

I'm also pretty concerned about it, but as I was looking for answers I found a Red comment on reddit that made a lot of sense. It's in response to a questions about the increased gold flow and the "item efficiency" changes, but it's also relevant to the minion changes: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3sb7k9/patch_522_notes/cwvpl5n

Essentially, if your team is winning enough for the minions to make a difference, then chances are you are gonna win just by sitting back, farming, and waiting for the next dragon/baron. With these changes, you are encouraged to push to round out the game, or else you give the opponent a chance to farm and come back.

Although another comment brought up a legitimate warning that stall comps with Ziggs and such may become a lot stronger with these changes. We really just have to wait and see.

flibitydoo6 votes

I feel like the minion changes merely encourage faster games.

with the new minion changes,

The ahead team wants to group up. They want to drive it down mid and force objectives. The stronger minions will add additional pressure to these sieges in the form of a splitpush and force the behind team to respond in a decisive manner to protect their base (or otherwise lose).

If however, the ahead team decides to stall out the game, focusing on farming rather than trying to force a game-ending teamfight at baron or at an inhibitor tower, then it gives the behind team safe freefarm which will even out the game (and possibly result in a turnaround from what should have been a decisive victory from the start).

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

I hope you are right. If so, that would be awesome.

Obviously, I fear this isn't how it will work. No doubt, this is how they intend it to be. I fear the unintended consequences.

Only Play Darius6 votes

I remember the good old days when you pushed your lane by actually PUSHING your lane. Crazy right?

Now you can just abandon your lane to camp mid or bot and get your team fed, and you don't even pay the price in side lane pressure anymore. This game is becoming more and more like team deathmatch and I'm about done with it if this is the direction they continue to move in.

Stillname4 votes

It looks like riot wasn't quite sure about them either because the patch notes say they pushed it back to the next patch.

Shosuko4 votes

Riot tried this one before, making minions way too powerful. The tactic was to set up your lanes to push, and go distract the enemy with a mid push or objective while 2 towers went down on the other side.

I agree with your fears - when you're behind, being able to set up your wave to push while you try to win a team fight is a come back strategy. If you win that fight you already have a wave pushing you can teleport to (or run to) and take a tower for it. Get back in the game.

With this change I feel that being behind is going to be as bad as having inhibitors down just from losing a tower... You're going to have to win 2-3 fights to come back because you have to start your push over every time. More than that the pressure is off the attacking team to make any plays. If they just stall out the lanes will push and they'll win. Siege OP.

alfavhunter4 votes

How they could even this out a bit

Minions are worth 7 more gold per "winning" buff they have

This lets the enemy team work on delays by wave clearing and gives them more gold helping them catch up, while also giving the winning team a better chance to press their advantages

So if an enemy teams minions have all of the buffs they are worth double their normal gold value which helps the losing team catch up while focusing on defense, but also makes defense a bit harder at the seme time

This change would even out the change and give a "press your advantage" vs "catch up to enemy teams lead in gold" so both sides gain something from it that both encourages taking advantage of being ahead, and play defensive and you can catch up in gold to even the odds

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

What's the concern again?

ModKnightsKemplar14 votes

Feel free to read the post. The TL;DR is that by making the minions unevenly matched, the wave mechanics become unpredictable and unmanageable for the losing squad.

A lot of people likely won't notice the change, but I fear it will have a huge impact on the game, especially at higher tiers of play.

Aside from balance, clarity is an issue here. I get the goal, but I feel this is a convoluted way to approach the problem. A simpler, more clear alternative is preferable, and if there isn't one, I'm fine with the way it is.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I feel like the change also hurts the winning side. Since your minions will auto push if you have an xp lead, you can just freeze top and bot on your side of the map to deny the enemy that xp/gold. I agree with you that it's a terrible idea (because it's really confusing how minions work now), but it doesn't only benefit one team.

ModKnightsKemplar6 votes

Yes. I think it's unclear how these mechanics will influence the game as a whole, and I think it varies wildly based on the champions/comps being used in any particular game. That's a big part of why I don't like it.

I don't think intentionally losing tower, for instance, should really be considered a good strategic move. I fear that heavy farming champs could do this and freeze waves too easily now, and this is only one potential problem. This change has deep, far-reaching impacts on how the game is played (at least it seems that way to me, on paper. I fully admit I might be wrong. I am not on PBE, and haven't tested the changes myself).

TruckFump20161 votes

Games last too long period.

Games should not go 50 minutes, or an hour and some odd minutes.

I'm glad they are doing something about it.

ModKnightsKemplar17 votes

This is a complicated topic, though, and I think this response is a little too small in scope to properly address it.

ARAM exists. Twisted Treeline exists. There ARE options for people who want shorter games, admittedly at the expense of balance. But that's exactly why this change makes me nervous. We don't need to do that to SR. SR is where balance is supposed to be the ultimate goal for a game like this (in my opinion). If people want to trade balance for shorter games, play a different mode. Or hell, a different game.

"People want shorter games" is not a good reason to do something that significantly messes up balance in the core experience, even if that's a worthy goal. Again, it's not that I don't sympathize with their goals; I just happen to think the cost of this change far outweighs the benefit.

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