I'm not going to lie. I hate the new trinkets

Jefftiffy·Dec 6, 2015·184 votes·7,009 views

There is so little vision the map now that even with people spamming blues off for vision (which is soon to be nerfed) that the actual wards on the map are kind of bad. You don't even get 100% uptime on 1 ward per person. Making the support once again the ward carrier.

Yellow trinket needs to start at the old 60s vision 120 sec CD and then upgrade to 90s vision 90s CD at the very least. It would still be worse than last season, but at least I could say that there are at least 3 wards on the map that weren't because of the support because pinks are really hard to actually use now due to the lack of greens. This is because pinks often end up where a green ward should go or are simply found because no one has to look for wards anymore they just see spotlights saying hey look here free 15g unless the enemy is using it as bait.

I much prefer the old system over this crappy new one. The blue trinket was finally seeing use and the map vision was so nice when people actually bought the upgrade. I don't think taking away vision hurts games, the problem is putting too much in. Instead now we are stuck with the not enough because dying from something that you had no clue was around is any more fun than trying to guess if you are standing on a ward.

88 Comments

NegusInParisDec 6, 201564 votes

Instead of nerfing the blue trinket I would like to see the others buffed

mcjaggerDec 7, 20152 votes

There's no question blue trinket needs to be nerfed. The whole point of the past 2 vision overhauls was to avoid the blanket vision problem and blue reintroduces that more than ever.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's no question blue trinket needs to be nerfed. The whole point of the past 2 vision overhauls was to avoid the blanket vision problem and blue reintroduces that more than ever.

But blue trinket places down visible wards that are killed in one hit. Personally I think it's retarded, but perhaps Riot thinks this is more "healthy" than invisible wards that die in 3 hits.

mcjaggerDec 7, 20151 votes

They may be visible but the cooldown is very small and the range is so big. If mid/top/adc all get bue trinket and spam it off cooldown you get a lot more risk free vision. Despite the fact that they are killed in one hit, they still accomplish the goal of providing vision in an area.

Remember they also last until they are killed and there is no limit. Those two facts alone are what make blue trinket OP as balls.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They may be visible but the cooldown is very small and the range is so big. If mid/top/adc all get bue trinket and spam it off cooldown you get a lot more risk free vision. Despite the fact that they are killed in one hit, they still accomplish the goal of providing vision in an area.

Remember they also last until they are killed and there is no limit. Those two facts alone are what make blue trinket OP as balls.

I see what you mean, but currently I would give no nerf to the ward placed down by item 3363 without adjusting item 3340 and item 2049 . The first doesn't provide nearly enough warding potential even at later levels, the second needs to refill charges over time if it's not going to gain its 4 stacks back. Going b to fill this shit is more frequent than going b to buy wards in freaking season 1-2 when you spammed them like candies at Halloween.

krazeeightDec 6, 201538 votes

I agree. The removal of stealth wards sucks and the crappy new yellow trinket just adds insult to injury. The old warding totem was much better because it rewarded the smart players who actually upgraded it for a constantly regenerating supply of normal stealth wards or vision wards. I would normally upgrade it by level 12 at the latest.

RisenDarkKnightDec 6, 201521 votes

Yeah I just had a game where we had about 15 minutes of both teams milling around the map unable to make any aggressive plays because neither side had enough vision to push (and both sides had a scary quinn jungle to catch out stragglers). I and a teammate had blue trinket that we spammed on cooldown, but most of those wards were just immediately killed. It was frustrating that we only usually had about 4 wards on the map at any given time (because everyone was full build, we had two sweepers and 2 blue trinkets, so we only could have 3 wards form sightstone + 1 from the one yellow trinket). That isn't enough to keep baron and dragon areas covered much less the rest of the map.

item 3599

Not having green wards be purchasable is nice, because it stops the winning team from just dominating the vision game and it lets ganks/roams actually work at high elo, but the yellow trinket definitely needs to be buffed for late game. Right now it's useless since you can only keep one ward up continuously so blue trinket is just better. Sightstone/tracker's knife are the only real options for warding.

item 3599

It's funny because Riot wanted to make vision a team thing instead of just the jungler and support doing it, but their changes this preseason had the opposite effect. Last season, everyone contributed with either green wards or upgraded yellow trinket. This season, the support does most of the warding, and the jungler helps if they have tracker's knife. Everyone else can only have 1 invisible ward on the map (or 2 or 3 visible ones that give the enemy gold). 1 pink ward each is not enough vision IMO.

shadecrapperDec 6, 201516 votes

If the nurf the blue trinket... rip vision

MrWasjigDec 6, 201514 votes

The vision changes this patch were just a massive middle finger to Supports and people who actually bought greens and upgraded their trinkets. And while that's (sadly) a small selection of players, it was still a crappy change done for the pure sake of change. Because Riot can't leave a good thing, that's perfectly functional alone.

ChargeItDownMidDec 6, 20156 votes

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FacerollKatarinaDec 6, 201522 votes

So you're telling me that i'm supposed to play hide and seek and guess to see if 3 people are waiting to ambush me... I bet you were one of those people that never upgraded your trinket or bought wards and then complained about no vision lol

ChaoticPineconeDec 6, 20154 votes

part of the game is taking calculated risks. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesnt.

ralseiDec 6, 201512 votes

Running into an unwarded bush because the new update makes it harder to ward isn't calculated.

B1naryB0tDec 6, 201511 votes

It is if you say "calculated" after you get brutally slaughtered by the 3 enemies waiting in the bush.

DeliothDec 7, 20151 votes

If you're 6/2 midlane on a 5-kill spree and you don't have actual positions on 4 members of the other team in the last 35 seconds, you're in danger- don't go into that bush. People will often manage the little bit of teamwork it takes to 4-man bush and shut someone down.

New vision just means that you actually have to pay attention to the rest of the map and times you see people, rather than just seeing everything that's important without risk.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you're 6/2 midlane on a 5-kill spree and you don't have actual positions on 4 members of the other team in the last 35 seconds, you're in danger- don't go into that bush. People will often manage the little bit of teamwork it takes to 4-man bush and shut someone down.

New vision just means that you actually have to pay attention to the rest of the map and times you see people, rather than just seeing everything that's important without risk.

New vision system means we have to constantly take guesses as opposed to using the proper tools to get the information that's needed. If there's a risk - and there's inherently always a risk when the map is dark and not all the enemies are accounted for - then the smart decision is to play more defensively which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, goes against all the "interactive" and "aggressive" gameplay Riot wishes to promote in their game. Sorry, but if I can barely keep tri bush warded as the support, I'm not going to play Sona and aggressively poke and zone, I'm going to play Janna, trade carefully and be ready to disengage and gtfo as soon as someone shows up.

TotalJerkDec 7, 20151 votes

Have you seen pro games though? They literally spammed wards. There were over 100 wards placed per game on average. It wasn't uncommon for them to drop 3 wards in the exact same spot just to make it difficult to get them all in one cycle. There's clearly a problem when it's optimal to be that redundant with wards. I agree that the current state offers too little vision, but vision was blatantly overpowered before. It suffered from the same issue Aegis/Locket did pre nerfs. It was overpowered but unsatisfying.

The RewrittenDec 7, 20152 votes

Garen I happen to like the changes a lot

but nah, this needs to change. The world is too dark as it is.

Riot has not done wards justice.

ChargeItDownMidDec 7, 20152 votes

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RatbertDec 7, 20152 votes

Vision is more difficult now pre-sightstone and pre-trinket because smart people no longer get a vision advantage. How is it overpowered when both teams have equal access to it, and there are more than 10 easily contestable warding spots?

ChargeItDownMidDec 7, 20151 votes

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Zenthon PrimeDec 7, 20153 votes

You have no idea how warding actually worked last season.

In any given game, you had 4/5 people on each team that went for an unupgraded yellow trinket and stuck with it the entire game. Then there was the one smart guy on each team that upgraded the yellow trinket and was vastly more effective than everyone else because he had 3x the vision of anyone with the crappy basic trinket. Smart players last season could crush inept ones in the area of vision control. This season everyone is stuck with last season's basic yellow trinket, or a blue trinket that places 1-HP visable wards (oh, and enemies can see where you place them if they're watching that part of the map) on the same CD as the old up'd yellow trinket.

Smart mid/top/jg players have been dragged down to the level of the baddies we used to stomp and supports now have a massive responsibility to place the team's wards because nobody else can do crap. I might have given Riot a bit more support if they stated they wanted to just flat-out nerf vision, but they were actually stupid enough to say they wanted to make it a team objective at the same time they made everyone but supports and junglers incapable of using decent vision tools.

ChargeItDownMidDec 7, 20152 votes

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JefftiffyDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Spamming green wards doesn't make someone "smart," it just showed they were abusing an overpowered item. The new changes don't hurt smart players at all, they only hurt players who mindlessly spammed green wards because they were overpowered. Smart players can play around having limited vision and anticipate how the enemy team will move without perfect vision.

Season 6 shifted the focus of the game towards thinking and anticipating the enemy team's moves without full vision and away from mindlessly spamming overpowered wards. Players will good game sense aren't hurt by the changes at all, the only players who got "dragged down" were players who mindlessly spammed green wards are are unable to analyze the game without having perfect vision.

Smart players learn to use something good. Bad players don't learn a thing and complain when they die to enemy vision without getting any of their own and complain that there are no wards down. Good players complain when something was nerfed because bad players thought it was OP and had equal acess to it. In order to even get optimal vision out last season you had to ward very specific areas which led to knowing where 90% of wards were or could be meaning it was easy to clear them.

Pup BaeDec 7, 20151 votes

I think that if you are really a good player than you should be able to adjust. If anything this now highlights better players, because now you have to keep track of the enemy and think about where they went, or where you last saw them.

JefftiffyDec 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shir Khan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xY1Evgnp,comment-id=000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T04:23:43.132+0000)

I think that if you are really a good player than you should be able to adjust. If anything this now highlights better players, because now you have to keep track of the enemy and think about where they went, or where you last saw them.

You act like someone disappearing for 5 minutes tells you where they are. They could have been power farming the jungle, camping a bush, trying to gank a lane for a really long time, or even just fapping in base. As I said before, too much vision can be bad, but too little is even worse.

RatbertDec 8, 20151 votes

People couldn't spam greens since sightstone, and besides, pinks exist for a reason. Even then, lighting the whole map would require maybe 30(not 15) wards. That's 2250 gold every three minutes, and assuming you split it evenly, that's still 150 gold a minute you need. How is it mindless to pour money into vision? If you spam greens, what's stopping the other team from pinking and getting free gold?

ChargeItDownMidDec 8, 20151 votes

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RatbertDec 9, 20151 votes

Except once upon a time you could ward 30 times, that is pre sightstone. You'll need about 1 ward per bush to ward the whole map, not counting lane wards. It was literally impossible to ward the whole map last season, as you said yourself.

Greens also expire, and pinks do not. Besides, how can you put a price on vision besides saying 75 gold = 3 minutes in a medium radius and 100 gold = permanent, but killable true sight in a medium radius?

How on earth is it too strong to be able to see where you're going? If it was really that strong, you'd think everyone would have been building this sick OP item.

ChargeItDownMidDec 9, 20151 votes

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JefftiffyDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Umm everyone was building the op green wards. The average wards placed per game at worlds was between 90 and 120 depending on the team. That is absolutely insane and a clear sign that the wards needed to be nerfed.

That includes trinkets. Trinkets put out 60 seconds of vision early game for a 120s CD. So if you get about 15 minutes into the game that is 38 wards in total. Now add in the sight stone supports and junglers were building and you can spike that higher (to maybe about 46 if you include pinks). Now upgrade to a trinket that has a 90s CD 90s uptime and then upgrade to recharge faster and hold more and you can easily hit 90+ at 30 minutes.

Let's not forget about how much more they farm in the LCS meaning that wards are going out a lot faster. So add in an extra 50% to all wards and you can see why there are more wards down. Because they are farming more, building more situationally, and warding more. Everything they do is safer than normal play. They only go crazy when they want to end the game or are trying to put the deciding fight into action. And they will not do it if there is too much risk. In normal play risks are taken a lot more frequently meaning less vision and less thinking.

I wouldn't look at the LCS and try and balance the normal game around it because they might as well be playing DOTA compared to the average population. Their builds are flexible, their play is safer, their farm is more important, their team fight is what really matters, their teams are meant to synergize. Riot and the players need to accept that the LCS is the LCS and the actual League of Legends is the game we play. Just because the pros can ward more frequently does not mean that its warding that is broken. It's a different play style. The meta on live is more reckless and very rarely ever matches pro play. The only times it does is when it is so broken that even the pros abuse it.

ChargeItDownMidDec 9, 20151 votes

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JefftiffyDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You aren't using all of your trinket and sight stone wards on cooldown, a significant portion of wards come from players abusing the op green wards.

That you can buy as well. If wards are too OP because everyone has access to it, what does this philosophy remind you of? cough cough summoner 4 cough cough. But what is the difference. Everyone abuses flash and it is deemed okay. But not everyone abused green wards and they are "OP" when they have the same availability to players as .

ChargeItDownMidDec 10, 20151 votes

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JefftiffyDec 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And what has happened to flash over the past 5 years? Nerf after nerf after nerf with no one complaining about the summoner getting nerfed. If we don't nerf something simply because "everyone has access to it" we would still be running around with a 900 range flash on a 150 second cooldown. Vision shouldn't be immune from nerfs simply because everyone has access to it.

It hasn't been nerfed since S3. I would know because that was when i first started playing and i think that was the only time I've ever seen it nerfed. And even now summoner 7 > summoner 14 in 1v1s alone. Riot really need to just rework summoner's in general.

RatbertDec 10, 20151 votes

"at worlds" "everyone"

pick one pal.

Also, did you know people build boots of speed almost every game? So broken nerfs when. Literally seen 95%+ of the time.

JefftiffyDec 6, 20154 votes

I mostly get annoyed in games and want to yell at my teammates then realize I can't even ward enough on the map without sacrificing my build which hurts hard in blinds and solo queue.

Like at least before if it was just me and the support warding there were around 6 wards on the map. Now it's a struggle to maintain 6 wards even with 3 people using their trinkets. I literally am too afraid to play split push champs because their is no way I can get the vision out to make it safe. I don't even feel safe invading the enemy jungle anymore because I can't afford to have deep vision instead of safe vision.

Like this is really bad. Wards in DOTA may be expensive but they reveal a lot and are easily countered. Now we have the problem of a ward that isn't easily countered, a ward that has less than a 100% uptime, and an item that completely counters both and just stalls out the game.

The new system combined with all the changes makes it hell if you are behind. You can't pick rotations. You can't go into your own jungle safely because the enemy is ahead and you don't have vision to plan around. Vision was one of the counters to a fed team. Now it's just one team gets so fed they don't care, and one team that is hiding in fear because they need vision to come back.

I'm not even going to talk about how bad it is making a jungle choose vision over fight utility (both chilling smite and challenging are almost mandatory, so the vision one is kind of ignored). I could literally explain why making people choose between CC and damage, tank and damage, and vision is a bad thing, but I really hope it's obvious.

DanyojaDec 6, 20154 votes

These new wards are on cooldown for far too long, cheaper pinks do help though, but if you're behind it just becomes a waste (except for maybe bot lane). I usually just buy blue trinket for spot vision(plus it prevents from being caught out from warding) because it feels like there's never enough wards when you're behind (when losing most people are too afraid to ward, but it ends up making everything worst). If they reduce the cooldown by 10-15 seconds if you already have a stock of ward i think it'll help a bit.

The SoulforgedDec 6, 20153 votes

Agreed, with nerfs to trinkets and no stealth wards, supports with sightstone are back to the only major source of vision in the earlygame.

ParessDec 6, 20153 votes

I've not felt any vision problems, but for sure Blue Trinket is way ahead of others trinkets. After the nerf, there will be I think, a lot of vision problems.

Sneak DogDec 6, 20153 votes

It's ironic. First trinkers were added so not everyone (support) needed to spend all their gold into vision. Now the trinkets are nerfed horribly, so everyone ought to always have a pink ward on the map.

DengedenDec 6, 20151 votes

I'll see what I think about it when they nerf blue trinket. You said yourself how cheap ward spam is, I don't mind Riot gimping it. 90% of players don't know how to play around vision anyway.

Your criticism of pink wards makes absolutely no sense. "There's less greens, so pink wards are more easily spotted" What the actual heck? Sure, I find myself pink warding the river more often but only when I can fight over vision. And if I win that fight, I know that the enemy team won't be able to spam wards after I kill one. Otherwise, I'll place the pink on places that aren't so easily discovered/conquered.

krazeeightDec 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'll see what I think about it when they nerf blue trinket. You said yourself how cheap ward spam is, I don't mind Riot gimping it. 90% of players don't know how to play around vision anyway.

Your criticism of pink wards makes absolutely no sense. "There's less greens, so pink wards are more easily spotted" What the actual heck? Sure, I find myself pink warding the river more often but only when I can fight over vision. And if I win that fight, I know that the enemy team won't be able to spam wards after I kill one. Otherwise, I'll place the pink on places that aren't so easily discovered/conquered.

Players not knowing how to use vision is not a reason for riot to nerf it. Also, If you can't buy greens, you're going to be forced into using pinks in more situations where you normally wouldn't just to get some damned vision.

DengedenDec 6, 20152 votes

That's not why it got nerfed. Spamming wards was a cheap way to secure wins or to stall games out. If you backed for wards in the previous seasons you bought a pink too... so there.

JefftiffyDec 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That's not why it got nerfed. Spamming wards was a cheap way to secure wins or to stall games out. If you backed for wards in the previous seasons you bought a pink too... so there.

I rarely ever bought pinks in middle elos because people would clear them out fast because most of them had decent map awareness to notice that, "Hey my ward randomly disappeared". Even after I broke Gold, I was one of the few people to actually upgrade their trinket other than the support. How is something a problem, when more than 50% of the player base hadn't figured out that it was really good in over a year of it being out?

Warding works both ways, it gives both teams vision to plan. Not having vision is automatically lop sided in the winning teams favor. Because they can hold their own on random encounters while ahead. If you are behind, it leads to you bleeding more gold to an already snowballing team. Removing green wards basically removed the snowballing vision which is a good decision. Nerfing everyone's ability to have it out tipped it back in favor of the snowballing team.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 6, 20155 votes

{quoted}

That's not why it got nerfed. Spamming wards was a cheap way to secure wins or to stall games out. If you backed for wards in the previous seasons you bought a pink too... so there.

There was no "ward spamming" considering that it's 3 wards (4 with pink) per player and people outside of the support and jungle role rarely put down their 3 wards.

The nerf to item 2049 hurts the most, as a support main I find myself very often in the "go b to fill stone and abandon my teammates who could get engaged on without me, or stay but be blind" situation, and neither of these choices feel good to take. I feel like it should be recharging (slowly) when you're out of base like the yellow trinket does - why can a free item do it but not the one I'm paying 800g for?

DengedenDec 7, 20151 votes

They did in competitive and high elo, which was the problem for the aforementioned reasons. You don't need that many wards to cover one quadrant of the map, even with the towers down. It was almost impossible to completely deny vision when behind. Or even when you came late to the party. Meaning the enemy team could play around your every action. (Even if you pink warded one or two brushes, the rest of the map was a christmas tree)

I haven't played too much support because I need to brush up on my jungling ... but with the price reduction for pinks, I don't miss the extra ward charge. Not to mention the 10 second sweeper leading to more strategic ward placements (or complete lack of it). Once you're past the 20 minute mark, you get homeguards anyway. Besides, the only objective that needs constant warding is Baron.

Sightstone needs to stay weak so junglers (that aren't Nunu) stop buying it. The extra slot you get for combining it with the gold item or the 10% CDR on item actives arguably makes up for it.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They did in competitive and high elo, which was the problem for the aforementioned reasons. You don't need that many wards to cover one quadrant of the map, even with the towers down. It was almost impossible to completely deny vision when behind. Or even when you came late to the party. Meaning the enemy team could play around your every action. (Even if you pink warded one or two brushes, the rest of the map was a christmas tree)

I haven't played too much support because I need to brush up on my jungling ... but with the price reduction for pinks, I don't miss the extra ward charge. Not to mention the 10 second sweeper leading to more strategic ward placements (or complete lack of it). Once you're past the 20 minute mark, you get homeguards anyway. Besides, the only objective that needs constant warding is Baron.

Sightstone needs to stay weak so junglers (that aren't Nunu) stop buying it. The extra slot you get for combining it with the gold item or the 10% CDR on item actives arguably makes up for it.

You act like pink wards can be placed wherever you'd place a green ward. They can't, because they're visible. If you want the pink ward to be worth the investment you can't place it where the enemy will immediately find it (unless you plan on using it as a bait).

I don't see why Sightstone being picked up by junglers is bad. Besides, generally speaking only Lee Sin (who has his own personal reasons to always want a ward on him) and tanky/supportish jungler would buy it, which fitted their thematic.

As for the shitty item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 , the only one that I've seen built with success was (and even then I think item 3401 would have served him better overall). The two others simply are not worth losing the actives of item 3069 and item 3092 .

These items offer horrible stats and no benefit other than saving a slot. You're offering slot efficiency to a role that typically does NOT end the game full build anyway. As a support player, you get a lot more bang for your buck by buying item 3069 / item 3092 / item 3401 in combination with item 2045 than going for those.

DengedenDec 8, 20151 votes

I don't, the OP implied it though. Specifically, there are 5-6 places you could place a pink in on one side of mid lane. (3 for the sidelanes)

It's bad ... for the reasons I stated. It was a must-buy for any competitive jungler during the entire split.

It must be nice to have all the gold you could want but that's not why you play support. You take what you can get from what little you have. Sometimes, this involves getting a inefficient Sightstone upgrade for the situational spike it offers.