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So um as if the raptor's weren't hard enough to kill...

Jefftiffy··65 votes·8,153 views

The stupid True sight goes off on pink wards. Yeah thanks Riot. Definitely wanted to reveal that totally visible pink ward.

I mean c'mon who doesn't think of these things when the concepts are made. The raptors are way too strong and I tend to skip them half the time anyways because they hit so damn hard and the buff you get you can't use because you just got low hp from trying to kill the bastards. And the wolves give you a horrible buff for doing anything other than watch your blue (which you should have saved smite for to begin with).

Things Riot needs to work on in the jungle. Lower the mini raptors damage by 3 each. Lower the big raptor's damage by 5. (They have much higher dps than the wolves with this) Rift scuttler needs to scale in xp and gold. Gromp needs 10 less base damage (its already 15 higher than the original wight with a bigger hp pool). And the buff needs to also give some kind of defensive stats.

I mean Riot you kind of straight buffed the jungle while nerfing jungle items (all of the new ones are pretty terrible for any form of sustain, hence the new gank or lose meta). On top of this smite is on a way longer CD.

The only junglers that I have done well with are AoE heavy champs and hyper sustain champs. Which shows just how terrible the items are for everyone else.

Riot you keep claiming diversity, diversity, diversity while your actions are screaming limitations.

74 Comments

Drunk Rummate14 votes

raptor damage isn't all that bad for a lot of champs, they're just a bit limiting if you try them on your first clear.

i'm able to full clear the entire jungle from level 1 with diana, including raptors so it can't be all that bad...

maybe you're walking a weird path or doing camps in the wrong order? i generally do golems -> wolves -> blue -> gromp -> raptors -> red. smite comes up for golems, blue, and red. red would put me low but since i smite it I get about a full potion worth of hp back so it's pretty safe.

Jefftiffy5 votes

The point is that junglers who could clear the jungle and barely not make 6 before backing can't even clear half of it now. I generally start the buff if I start red as blue tends to be useless to smite. Gromp hits too hard and takes too long to kill for a useless passive so I tend to ignore it until my second clear and every other after that as it is only easy to kill when you are stronger than it. The problem with the new jungle is they nerfed the buffs so hard it is impossible to jungle for extended periods of time.

The new jungle doesn't encourage farming at all. In fact it shifted the meta so hard to ganks that farming isn't even an option if you want decent gold.

eyes wide shut41 votes

the fact that you just called gromps smite passive useless, shows me that you have no idea what you are talking about or doing.

Jefftiffy2 votes

It is relatively useless if you can't kill the things to begin with effectively.

Chaotic Reks3 votes

Think item 3205 and tell me if it's useless

Onegarion4 votes

It wishes it was gromps passive

LupusNox1 votes

Its krugs(smite)->Red->Wolves->blue(Smite)->gromp->raptors-> back

Don Shula1 votes

Isn't that a terrible jungle order? Why not clear orderly if you plan on doing a full clear? Gromp>Blue>Red -> Gank Golems>Red>Blue -> Gank Gromp>Blue>Wolves>Red>Raptors>Golems for a full clear.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Isn't that a terrible jungle order? Why not clear orderly if you plan on doing a full clear? Gromp>Blue>Red -> Gank Golems>Red>Blue -> Gank Gromp>Blue>Wolves>Red>Raptors>Golems for a full clear.

I do it that way so that my smite is up for both buffs in the event that there's an invade. It's also important that I smite the red with Diana because otherwise she would drop below 50% hp while clearing which is kind of dangerous.

It also means I take my red last which means I'll have red for the longest period of time with my stalker's smite, meaning my ganks will be better.

DUDE BRO1 votes

Agreed, Raptors are meant for AOE champs. Since their health is split 4 ways, you're essentially doing 4x damage to them with AOE.

Try them with single target champs, and now you're nearly TAKING 4x the damage instead. (Not really but you get the idea)

Messaiga5 votes

Yes, the new jungle is much more limiting. It's a good thing, in my opinion. It really does prevent some champions from shining too much without any exploitable weakness.

Once they get rid of the WW Smite R One-Shot and early dragon solos then I personally will think this season's jungle to be much better than Season 4's jungle. I think this because just about every jungler now has an exploitable weakness as well as strengths that the player can make use of (and must play around).

For example, Lee Sin and all those early-ganking AD bruisers can't clear through the jungle as fast as everybody else (or have as much health once you are finished), but they have much stronger ganking power (both Pre-6 and post-level 6). Other jungles like Diana, Skarner, and Nocturne generally clear the jungle faster (while sustaining more HP) but pay for it by being harder to gank with and by lacking early dueling power.

M4nTiCoR34 votes

Biggest trap with raptors as with all camps now, is to clear the big monster first. If you kill the small ones first you decrease the incoming damage you take tremendously as you finally finish off the big buff monster. Try it for all lanes including Red and Blue buffs. It seems to have helped my sustainability in jungle a lot.

Jefftiffy1 votes

The problem though, is when you don't have AoE or AS then you can't even clear the camp in a worth while time unless you are really far ahead of the camp.

Encouraging AoE nuking the jungle is a very bad thing for the game. That means that only about 15% of the champs can clear it effectively and 5% of the total are the hyper sustain champs.

M4nTiCoR310 votes

How has the jungle ever been any different? You have always needed AoE clear on short CD, or single target high AS builds. Any champions can get AS from runes and masteries. Not all will have AoE wave clear or sustain, but even that can be bufeed with LS quints and Utility and defense masteries, along with the jungle item that provides it over more offensive choices.

I think a lot of players need to be more experimental right now. Stop trying to do things the old way, and look at making something work. Riot will scale back in time if it's needed, but ultimatly, people need to actually try and adapt with what they have given...be it new builds, new runes and masteries, new jungle paths, new kill priority order at said camps, whatever. Just keep experimenting and you may be suprised.

Jefftiffy2 votes

The thing is they already nerfed LS quints for being OP so buffing them again would defeat the purpose and doesn't solve anything for tank junglers or low clear speed junglers.

M4nTiCoR38 votes

I can get over 7% LS with quints and masteries, and nearly 20% AS with marks and masteries at level 1. How does that not significantly impact a single target AA junglers sustain and clear times?

Short answer is that I'd does, as does clearing camps in different orders and in different ways than in season 4. S4 is over, move on to new things, adapt, learn, and grow as a player...or don't and get left behind.

What Is Smite1 votes

I have the current jungle down to a science with every chamo from season 4 being able to do it. Started blue side? Go krugs>red>wolves>blue>gank or gromp>raptors. Started red side? Gromp>blue>wolves>red>gank or krugs>raptors.

For blue side smite krugs for the aa stun, smite should be back up to use on blue buff or gromp if you want stun+poison armor For red side smite gromp for poison armor, smite will be up by the time you are at red so use it here if you want to gank after or need the bit of HP

Also thanks to the hunters machete you now regain 15% hp and mana when you smite a monster/champion

crippler381 votes

hey you, smarty, can you tell me if shaco can kill grump with 3 or 4 boxes and smite or not? I can't test this yet because my computer fan blew out and now I can't play the new jungle cries himself to sleep every night but I was thinking 3-4 boxes a grump and you smite it, then go to blue where you left one box and have your mid laner and or top/bot help, then go to the scuttle crap and kill that with your box to fear it so it holds still and take advantage of it just walking away from you using your backstab passive, and then gank and such because shaco is still shaco, also does fako proc challenger smite?

Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco Shaco

shaco is love, shaco is life.

What Is Smite1 votes

2 boxes is more than enough for gromp with backstab bonus and you can use a 2nd box at blue after the first is killed saving you a bit more HP and getting more damage off thanks to shaco's passive, whether you want to smite gromp or blue is your choice completely. Challenging smite true damage is only proc'ed on auto's so if you mean fako's auto's then yes because it is basically a clone of shaco which recieves all his buff/debuffs and item passives along with a copy of shaco's stats at a lowered rate(I think a 20% reduction off of his stats when he does ult). I don't play shaco but I know enough of his kit to tell which is the fake and real one when he ults cuz stat checking OP

crippler381 votes

no I mean how many boxes do I need to just smite and walk away so I can get started on blue with a leash, that way I can get done faster and move on to the crab and gank or just gank, or counter jungle, also smiting blue early is kind of pointless since smiting it just gives you mana back, at least red heals you, and the gromp gives you extra dps so you have your basic attacks your box or two and the poison buff all hitting the thing. or you could start krugs since their attack speed is so slow you could maybe get away with four or five boxes there and then focus on red with your laners since then you can gank really well since you have red already, and you can smite through the wall so just smiting it after placing the boxes could net you the kills, or your bot/top lane could help your boxes out, just so long as the boxes finish it off, after that I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want.

also you could just aim for the one in the back, usually that's the real one, if one is trying to run away generally it's a good idea to kill that one. Also if you have anything that marks him before he goes in just mark him asap, or hit them both whichever is healthiest is the real one. and the reason I asked for challenger smite because it's not technically an item on hit effect so I wasn't sure if the clone would proc it (I want my new computer dangit q.q)

Surr20plz4 votes

Biggest trap with raptors as with all camps now, is to clear the big monster first. If you kill the small ones first you decrease the incoming damage you take tremendously as you finally finish off the big buff monster. Try it for all lanes including Red and Blue buffs. It seems to have helped my sustainability in jungle a lot.

Does anyone have the math to back this up?

Dreampod2 votes

I just took a half hour to run a couple quick tests to see how it played out.

Using Xin (level 3 full health w/ machete and blue buff) I tried both approaches using absolutely no technique (activate abilities on cooldown and keep autoattacking target). Killing the Crimson Raptor first left me @ 404 health, while killing the small raptors first left me @ 546. I also tested doing the killing the Crimson first with the Heavy Hands instead of blue to see if that shifted the issue and finished @ 475.

For comparison I then ran Sejuani to see how having a bit of AoE shifted the balance and she finished Crimson first @ 278 and small raptors first @ 488.

So testing bears out that the small raptors do an outsized amount of damage compared to how easy they are to kill and should be cleared out first. It seems likely that it would also be the case for the other camps but I don't have time to test them out and check.

iluvalar2 votes

Biggest trap with raptors as with all camps now, is to clear the big monster first. If you kill the small ones first you decrease the incoming damage you take tremendously as you finally finish off the big buff monster. Try it for all lanes including Red and Blue buffs. It seems to have helped my sustainability in jungle a lot.

Does anyone have the math to back this up?

The crimson raptor deal : 55 / 1200 = 4.58 dmg/100hp Raptor deal : 20 dmg / 250 hp = 8 dmg/100hp

So reducing the small is better, unless you severely overkill them.

My own experience : The raptor camp only take 2 starcall to clear and a few AA on raptor. Or it's instant with smite+starcall. I dont see any difficulty with it. I guess champs with good AOE clear the raptor better then the one without AOE. Also, I'm not forced to smite the raptors if I don't fell like it.

Blynx1 votes

Biggest trap with raptors as with all camps now, is to clear the big monster first. If you kill the small ones first you decrease the incoming damage you take tremendously as you finally finish off the big buff monster. Try it for all lanes including Red and Blue buffs. It seems to have helped my sustainability in jungle a lot.

Basically this.. You take x damage to deal y damage but you can lower x damage by removing the small monsters. At some point you have to wonder when it is more beneficial to remove the larger ad pool before the smaller ones. I clear the small ones first for every camp except buffs.

Angry Monster3 votes

Funny thread. You can see who has been playing for a long time and those that started S3 or s4

AbodyHUN6664 votes

And if you read the arguement on top you will realise the OP had no idea about how the jungle works. But his post was upvoted because it criticises Riot.

Angry Monster1 votes

I never said i was pro OP. I said the thread was FUNNY.

junglerboy161 votes

Even new players (Like myself, started the day preseason 4 came out) can figure out how to do the new jungle fast and effectively if we aren't like this guy and just cry "Riot made it hard, Hard is bad, why Riot?!?". The jungle isn't "Hard", it just requires that when you do it you actually need to make use of both a plan, your brain, and practice.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I started in S3. The jungle was still bearable even then. The gold was higher than the supports. Then S4 came and the supports and jungler received more gold. The thing that dropped jungler gold so hard is their dependence on ganks for their old gold rate.

Angry Monster2 votes

Um s3 was the start of the easy jungle. You missed season 1 and 2 where it was much different and harder. Sorta like now except we did not have a jungle item and had to usually go cloth 5 pots

Wynsl3 votes

I agree with your OP on the points of how diversity is basically gone but reading your replies to people makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about. People give you VIABLE suggestions and you counter argue with nonsense. -1.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I am not downvoting anyone. I am mostly pointing out my beliefs. I know what I am talking about as much as people say I don't. I have been playing the new jungle a lot, but when a camp is so not worth that I either just smite it for the buff or ignore it until i can clear it in a way that doesn't hurt my ganks then there is a problem. Idc if I am single target, the jungle has always had all the power in the large creep because it was the most important one and gave the most rewards, now for the small ones to give less rewards but be more important to kill doesn't make any sense.

Shacos Day Off2 votes

Gotta kill the small ones first, they do the most damage with the least amt of hp.

youngjake932 votes

I actually like them strong and feel it strongly INCREASES diversity. You actually have to make a choice as to whether or not you can afford to do the raptor camp during that clear. Whereas before you just AFK clear the whole jungle. If they make them easier then you go back to AFK clearing everything with no changes from game to game. Also, it does kind of depend on your champion which is cool. AOE clear junglers actually find the raptor camp the easiest, where as single-target clear junglers will have a lot more ease with gromp. The only problem is that sustain junglers can still AFK clear the whole jungle and were made strong enough to compete with other junglers during the meta where EVERYONE could AFK clear the whole jungle. But Riot has already nerfed Warwick, Pantheon and Fiddlesticks which were the main abusers of "lol there is literally no downside to me being able to farm without losing hp."

Fisk2 votes

I think wolves is a pretty good smite buff actually. It's by far the weakest camp, so it is understandably weaker than the other buffs but it's pretty useful. If counter jungling becomes meta it will be even better also. It's really good if you go and smite the enemy wolves then you can see the enemy jungler if they enter their blue side at all. But thats just me. I think the only real problem is that junglers are pretty weak before six because their xp and gold now comes in bursts instead of continuously. That basically makes them useless until after their first/second clear and if you miss any time on your clear, you miss so much time in respawns that you fall behind quickly (i.e. other jungler gets burst of gold faster than you and then invades and kills you and now you are screwed). But other than that I like the new jungle. As for raptors, they just aren't meant to be taken early on some junglers and generally you want to take them after you get gromp but they are perfectly fine after your first clear and give an incredibly strong buff to match. Also revealing pinks is pretty nice????? It's nice to know where they are without having to facecheck every brush in the forest. And it still reveals other wards too...

junglerboy161 votes

Counterjungling should be really strong after this patch because of how the jungle gold is going to change. Every camp gives 10 less gold, but machete and its upgrades give 10/20 bonus gold for large monster kills. Taking a large monster from a camp will steal EVEN MORE gold from the enemy jungler, because you are taking away their bonus gold from their machete passive, and all the small monsters are worth less gold than before. Basically, taking a large monster will deny 20+ more gold than before.

Edbwn2 votes

Some of these things are already being changed in patch 4.22. Like Gromp's damage. Also, there are tons of times when people completely overlook pink wards that are hidden in brush, as silly as that sounds. Sure, sometimes it will seem stupid, but sometimes, the jungler might not have even seen it to begin with. And you contradicted yourself in the post. You said we're in the "gank or lose" meta, and the only junglers you are doing well with are hyper sustain champs now. The "gank or lose" meta was Season 4 (not considering Feral Flare). Also, the new jungler items give terrible sustain?? Have you SEEN what Ranger's Trailblazer does? Especially when you smite red buff with it, talk about sustain! :)

Also, try not to sound so pissed off in your post. Don't assume that Riot didn't think of pink wards when they made the true sight buff. Maybe they did think of it, and had their own reasons to do it anyway.

Dreampod2 votes

I was annoyed by the true sight triggering on pinks at first too but I've come to actually be ok with it.

It offers a couple advantages by letting you find out of the way pinks (because honestly your laners ought to be taking care of any pinks in the obvious places) which are the ones that tend to last because they aren't in high traffic bushes. The other thing is that when you are going to gank the speed boost that goes off with the ward detection can sometimes be enough to let you still get in before they can retreat for close in pinks like the tribush.

CoolKnightST2 votes

That's why every challenger jungler takes those birds & use smite on them. Triggering the buff with pink wards has so their downsides but also their advantages. So it's harder to miss a pink ward that you otherwise wouldn't have found that soon.

I wouldn't lower the damage output from raptors. The main reason is simple: Range jungler already has a pretty big advantage in the jungle. This is one of the reason why whe see new junglers like Kayle back on the rift. Range jungle monsters can add least slow down that process.

Wolves are situational. Their actualy pretty good in the right situations. Even if the enemy is in your jungle. You can take them and make them scared for going into it again. If a change is needed than I would like to see a small buff on it when you smite wolfs on your jungle side.

Maybe they could even make the buffs stronger depending on what enchantmant you picked:

  • Devourer (asp): Wolf spirit now deals damage over time when it collides with enemy champions.
  • Juggernaut (hp): Increase dot from Gift of the Toadstool.
  • Magus (ap): Razor Sharp true sight buff duration will increase with 50% and will give 2 seconds longer true sight when triggered.
  • Warior (ad): Gift of Heavy Hands will work on champions.
junglerboy161 votes

I like your idea for enchantments affecting the smite bonuses, except gift of heavy hands affecting champions actually seems really strong. Imagine an udyr with that buff (O_O)! He could build AS and get so many stuns that everyone would cry.

CoolKnightST1 votes

The thing is what else would you give Gift of Heavy Hands. Ones your out of the jungle. Taking Gift of Heavy Hands isn't really worth it. Maybe add a cooldown between every stun to ballance it out. The main reason why I would place those buffs on enchantments is to give the jungler the option to decide between the available buffs based on his champion & his build rather than going raptors every time.

junglerboy163 votes

I just looked it up, and gift of heavy hands has a bonus affect that most of us have forgotten, where if you AA a tower, it consumes the buff but deals a healthy amount of true damage to the tower. Maybe something along those lines could work better?

junglerboy162 votes

The small raptors all together deal more damage than the big one, but collectively take less damage to kill, so if you are a single target clearer (primary damage from AAs and single target spells) then kiling the small ones first actually reduces the damage you take dramatically.

ImHerVoice1 votes

i have to recall after gromp-blue-wolves as eve every game lol as j4 i do gromp-blue-red gank

Demacry2 votes

It should be pretty obvious that Riot is going to give the jungle some number tweaks soon. Currently ganking junglers NEED to make an early gank work or they fall behind very quickly. Rengar, Kha'Zix and others can certainly still play a farm heavy style but the camps take so long for them to clear without items that they're very weak to invades. Even if they're clearing the camps, they're taking too much damage and all it takes is one good guess from an invading Lee and they're going to go down.

I personally play Shyv every time I jungle with the way things are now (and I'm very much looking forward to her unneeded buffs on the PBE) and she's back to being tier 1 in terms of farming/invading junglers. Surprisingly, Diana's early jungle is also currently one of the better ones if you're maxing her W first; I just have no idea how to build her so she scales well enough into the mid game.

Totodile4931 votes

i have to recall after gromp-blue-wolves as eve every game lol as j4 i do gromp-blue-red gank

Do Gromp-Blue-Red and you should have smite up in time to save you in red. Then you have double buffs for a gangbang as soon as you're done buying items.

What Is Smite1 votes

Smite is not on a longer CD, the 60 second smite was around season 3 so if anything all they did was revert it

junglerboy161 votes

The PBE has a change where smite is on an ammo system, so now you get a charge every 75 seconds. at first that sounds like a nerf, but if you smite when the 1st charge is about halfway recharged, you can get into a cycle that effectively puts smite on a 35-40 second cool down. With poachers giving 50% reduced cool down on enemy camps, a hard counterjungler could effectively get to around 20 seconds if they use their smite charges on a regular basis.

Aspynn1 votes

The only reason they made it go off on pink wards I think was because of all those durr hurr moments in competitive play when the casters would laugh for ten minutes about some guy not checking for oddly placed pink wards, and then have the entire crowd cheer as they finally cleared it. (just my opinion, also, raptors hurt)

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