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Hey Riot. If over 70% of Players Disagree with a Change, Are You Concerned?

SilverSquid··46 votes·3,802 views

EDIT: Please consider this really small sample size more of an indication of popular opinion, NOT the argument itself. For the argument, please read the whole post.

Nearly 150 people participated on my recent Karma poll about the upcoming E and RE changes. Turns out: 74,3% want you to keep the minion shielding. Fun Fact: The percentage of players wanting it removed is slightly higher in the Karma community, because - judging by the comments - they are annoyed by shielding minions on accident.

Reasons to keep minion shielding: Karma currently can do some neat little tricks, that will be gone if the changes go life.

  • EXTENDED RANGE: Cast RE on a minion to shield/speed an ally that she otherwise couldn't reach in time (+600 extra range for clutch saves).
  • BETTER PLACEMENT: Cast RE on a minion that is more conveniently placed, so you can hit 1-2 additional allies (which happens more often than you think in pubs, because people don't position properly)
  • TOWER PUSHING: Cast E to make a minion take 1-2 extra tower shots (given that you can properly estimate how much you can shield).
  • SWIFT ESCAPE: Cast RE in a sololane to speed away with the extra 20% MS.

I do understand that Riot opposes direct CS denial and thinks those "niche" things aren't worth keeping. But those are 4 options that made Karma more interesting to experienced Karma players; and frankly, Karma has become increasingly boring with nearly every touchup... which is weird, because Riot Meddler admitted already, that Karma has been "bland", and not "sufficiently satisfying" or "distinct" enough since her rework.

But hey, Riot, would you fancy a compromise?

Karma should probably be able to shield minions if she uses her mantra E and not be able to if she uses her normal E. That keeps all the cool stuff that you mentioned (like distributing the mantra E and pushing towers) while getting rid of the negatives (won't accidentally shield minion instead of allies and you can't deny CS without burning your ulti). - Kamquats

If all of this didn't convince you; can you at least tell us your plans for Karma? Why you don't mind if she gets less exciting to play. Why you don't mind if she nearly exclusively uses mantra on the same spell all laning phase (i.e. removing one of the last "niche" uses for RE in soloanes). Or explain to us whether fanweapons, duality and shieldbombs are toxic ideas and can't ever be had on this champion (or on a different future champion, for that matter)? Or will we get the usual "we currently don't have any plans for Karma, but probably there could be in 2-3 years under certain circumstances maybe if similar champions need something perhaps"? I think the Karma community could use some words of clarity, since it's been spamming the boards ever since the changes went up on the PBE.

In honest curiosity, SilverSquid

129 Comments

Fawksea29 votes

150 people isn't really anything to be counting as an estimate in a poll tbh, i do agree with you but ya know. 70% cant be calculated from 150 people

Paroe11 votes

{quoted}

150 people isn't really anything to be counting as an estimate in a poll tbh, i do agree with you but ya know. 70% cant be calculated from 150 people

sampling. @OP

Do the same poll on reddit. if the samples come out to about the same, you can extrapolate that its more or less true. Just doing it on the forums isnt that good, just gives you a small sample.

SilverSquid5 votes

Well, I'm not on reddit. Also I'd want to refrain from pushing an agenda just because it's popular. Even if 75% of ALL LoL players agreed, it doesn't mean Riot has to listen to me at all. I'd rather have a small indication of the popular consensus and then spend my time formulating good arguments.

You are both right tho; 150 is a really small sample size, and if it had been 100 or less, I wouldn't have used it at all.

1374344 votes

Yes, the number of respondents isn't the problem, it is how the poll was taken. It is not a good wide representation of the player base.

Obviously a thread titled "Why Karma Should Be Able to Shield Minions. And Why not." is primary going to attract people who want to keep the minion shielding. If you don't go to the thread then you don't vote in the poll. It is not a good representative feeling of the community's view of the change as a whole (excluding that is only found on the forums). In fact 70% of the players (at the OP states it) probably could not care less if it was removed.

SilverSquid5 votes

How would you find people willing to vote on a topic if you didn't tell so in the title? And if people don't care about the Karma changes either way, are they relevant to the discussion? I only wanted people clearly in favour or clearly against it.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

{quoted}

How would you find people willing to vote on a topic if you didn't tell so in the title? And if people don't care about the Karma changes either way, are they relevant to the discussion? I only wanted people clearly in favour or clearly against it.

they are relevant since if the majority of people don't care about the change then why should Riot bother keeping the shield then? most people will not care about whether or not the shield is there. For a poll to be successful you need to have an unbiased poll that takes into consideration everything, people that support said change, those that don't support it and those indifferent to it

SilverSquid8 votes

The majority of people doesn't only NOT care about Karma's shielding, but the whole champion. And since most people only care for their few mains, this would be true for any champion.

And as I said multiple times; I don't build my argument on the poll, I build it on the facts presented and use the poll as a general indicator.

Dolasaur2 votes

It's not sample size that's the issue here; 150 is sufficiently large for a binary question that you can be moderately confident in the results.

The issue is your sample population. You're asking 150 people on the boards (or 1500 on reddit) what they think, and neither accurately represents LoL's playerbase. That's like asking 150 people in the US if they can speak English and 1500 people in Australia, then extrapolating that to say "X% of people in the world speak English."

As to how the populations are different, I really have no clue. I don't think your method is intentionally and obviously biased (like the people saying "100% of the people I heard screaming about how much they hate Dynamic Queue on boards/reddit hate Dynamic queue, so I extrapolated that to mean 100% of people hate Dynamic Queue").

Just remember folks, sample size is only one of many facets of a good study.

Tristanl0l5 votes

What a coincidence, I recorded this game today.

http://plays.tv/video/578f4ccfb3ebdf4b60/how-to-tilt-a-melee-mid-karma

By the 10 minute mark he gave up trying to last hit.

http://imgur.com/a/g4wKy

SilverSquid5 votes

If a jungler doesn't gank your ass when you push a midlaner under tower and spend your defensive cooldown on annoying him, you got lucky. I honestly don't think it's that strong. I do agree however, that minion denial, no matter if on Yasuo, Braum or Karma, isn't a healthy thing. Thus the proposition by Kamquats.

Tristanl0l1 votes

{quoted}

If a jungler doesn't gank your ass when you push your midlaner under tower and spend your defensive cooldown on annoying him, you got lucky. I honestly don't think it's that strong. I do agree however, that minion denial, no matter if on Yasuo, Braum or Karma, isn't a healthy thing. Thus the proposition by Kamquats.

tbh it was jungle LeBlanc.

Voluug131 votes

Then dont pretend Karma in OP when you have a Le Blanc Jungle.

Tristanl0l1 votes

except she kinda is.. like i'm not saying she's Lucian levels of broken but like 45% cdr ap "tank" is nearly unkillable

http://imgur.com/a/7FJLQ

IxtaliKing1 votes

That build really shouldn't be possible tbh

Tristanl0l1 votes

It worked so well. my RW was always off cooldown because with 45% cdr my ult came off cooldown faster than my w. HP on protobelt kept me alive alongside my shield which was like, a 6 second cooldown. Kiting with my 2.7 second Q was super easy, and before they knew it I could RW again. I legit think I could use empowered W every 7 seconds.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Oh yeah 45% cdr is definitely a must for Karma. Riot has been super liberal with cdr on items, you can 45% really quickly with cheap component items lol.

Teslyn2 votes

Dont get me wrong.. messing with people CS'ing is funny.. but really what is it really doing..

when i deal with Jhin or EZ.. sometimes i step infront of minions to block their skill shot just to be annoying, but i have to put myself in danger..

i do this with Braum too.. but i put myself in danger..

sitting back and doing this is just too much..

seriously.. that needs to be stopped..

SilverSquid9 votes

Spending mana and your only defensive cooldown could be considered putting yourself in danger

LordGeovanni1 votes

no its really not when you are ranged. but i always liked that you could mess with other peoples farming with the shield its and want it kept you lose a resource and that is pretty fair but its not putting you in danger to shield a minion I play Yorick he has ghouls weak little things that people call annoying but he is always in range and there fore in danger and is called toxic but Malzahar has his Voidlings does the same thing that Yoricks ghouls do for far more damage at a range but isnt considered toxic

SilverSquid2 votes

no its really not when you are ranged.

What if your opponent is ranged? And has a longer range than you? What if you get ganked and have no mobility?

Malzahar has his Voidlings does the same thing that Yoricks ghouls do for far more damage at a range but isnt considered toxic

Yorick is just dependent on his mana battery, usually in melee matchups and features no counterplay, since his ghouls can always be up. Malzahar has only one ability to spawn them, is usually in a ranged matchup and is getting nerfed as we speak (passive duration from 1s -> 0.25s). Also we can expect Yorick to keep his ghouls in his rework. So we will see Riots idea of more healthy minions after his rework.

LordGeovanni1 votes

but what 25 50 or 200-250. there isnt much range disparity among ranged champions and unless they are Caitlyn or Thresh they have to stand in at the edge of your melee minions to hit you if you if you are standing among your ranged minions and that will attract minion agro to them. but more often than not you will always find at least 1 melee champion to fuk over with malzahar on the enemy team and most of their ranged champions too Yoricks Ghouls dont do much damage you can completely ignore them after the initial damage of the spell (which isn't the ghouls damage) and it will be worth it as long as you are hitting an objective (or another champion) while if you stand and take Malzahars Voidling damage you will die unless you are one of the tankiest champions in the game in which case you will just have 80% of your hp eaten out. Any aoe damage wipes out Yorick ghouls if you have sunfire cape Yoricks ghouls will last about 1.5 -2.5 seconds of up time not to mention the ai on Yoricks ghouls are horrible they take almost 1.5 seconds of their life when summoning them to attack anything they stop chaseing in the middle of attacks and the attacks some times ganked and have no mobility but can still walk out of the gank thanks to your 90% damge negateing sheild that allows you to ignore cc

SilverSquid1 votes

Man, I am neither a Malzahar nor Yorick specialist, but look:

  • Malzahar's minions have a CD of 20-16s.
  • Yoricks minions have a CD of 9-5s, 10-6s and 12s.

So Malzahar's minions can more easily avoided, you can influence how many he spawns and they deal more damage because that's Malzahar's flipping point as an AP carry, whereas Yorick is mostly a tank/fighter. If you have further questions regarding Yorick or Malzahar, please contact people that actively play them.

LordGeovanni1 votes

yorick is a fighter bruiser not tank in any way fighters function as melee carries at least until riot nerfed the champions themselves and their defensive items so that they take more damage just getting to the enemy now fighters have to build more defensive items just to survie to reach their targets and do less damage not because they arent designed to do it but having to build the same items tanks do when riot is commited to gutting tanks hurts fighters. malzahar's voidlings has a longer up time and the health doesnt decay during the fight meaning there isnt an easy way to cut them off. calling in a new set of voidlings before the current set wear off doesnt kill all voidlings the voidlings currently alive like it does with yoricks abilites. malzahar has 2 ways of commanding his voidlings where to attack and you cant even fight back during one of them where as yorick has non besides summoning the ghoul on the target I actively play yorick and i play malzahar every now and then as i try to rotate through all the champions

SilverSquid3 votes

I actively play yorick and i play malzahar every now and then as i try to rotate through all the champions

I do not. Please lead this discussion in a related thread. Or wait until the Yorick rework to make it meaningful.

LordGeovanni1 votes

or i can comment where i see that i am interested as the boards is made for because unlike some people i don't tell people to gtfo just for not agreeing with me and when they kill yorick and release the champion formerly known as yorick that will be a sad day. yorick has spells and ghouls the latter of which's damage is small as a mere 35% of yoricks ad and yorick cant build ad much ad in this meta or be popped like a squishy before even getting in range to fight and has to build at least 3 defensive items and defensive boots leaving only 2 slots for damage items when yorick casts his q or e it does a significant amount of damage people take that damage for the ghouls damage which it is not its the spells damage and malzahar's voidlings do far more damage from a safer range attack faster initially and have better ai than yoricks ghouls. while i like the sheilding minions aspect of kamras e i dont think that useing it on a minion puts you in danger much like a champion with out a sheild they arent always in danger and useing a sheild doesnt put you in danger rather useing it when you are in danger can save you from danger those two things are not the equivilent to each other. being ranged in itself gives you alot of saftey in that unless you have high base and scaling damage and mobility as an assassin being melee with out defensive items will cause you to die before you can use most of your skills in most cases. even if the enemy is ranged typically people stand at the edge of their range to hit minions so your enemy you usually are not in your enemies range as they are keeping as far away as they can to cs with out being punished for it melee characters cant do that though some assassin like champions get to have multiple defensive buffers and fail safes

SilverSquid1 votes

I haven't been rude yet, but if you really want me to: It appears that your understanding of the game is as bad as your grammar. Good day, sir!

LordGeovanni1 votes

Please lead this discussion in a related thread. as if its not related when we are talking about the saftey being ranged awards you in this thread

SilverSquid2 votes

Malzahar and Yorick are not related, especially not their comperative balance. Your other points have been refuted. Bring forth new, related arguments or go away.

LordGeovanni1 votes

we were talking about the risk of being ranged and useing your skills vs being melee and useing your skills then you turned it into a discussion on yoricks ghouls having more dmage and malzahar's voidlings which they don't. you trying to refute my comments and being wrong isnt refuting my comments

LordGeovanni1 votes

asumeing you arent smart enough to ward already having over 400 units of extra space initially to get away than melee champions with no shield which by your logic would be putting themselves in danger by not having a shield in the first place

SilverSquid1 votes

Not warding puts you in danger. Spending your defensive cooldowns offensively puts you in danger. Pushing to the enemy tower puts you in danger.

Avoiding one doesn't diminish the others. Taking the risk is sometimes useful. Downvoting my comments doesn't make your arguments better.

Dolasaur1 votes

Saying spending mana puts you in danger is a bit of misdirection, unless you're already at low mana. And if you're at dangerously low mana, sacrificing your safety in order to deny CS is hardly a pattern Riot would want to reinforce.

Also, in a PvP game, there are [practically] no strictly offensive or defensive moves. You can use your E's speed boost to chase people offensively, and you can use your Q slow, W bind, and RW heal defensively. Karma's hardly a sitting duck with 3 of her 4 moves available.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Saying spending mana puts you in danger is a bit of misdirection, unless you're already at low mana

No, but using your defensive ability on a minion will, which is his point.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Riot wouldn't care if 100% of the playerbase wanted to keep it, they don't like the mechanic and they don't care about Karma.

SilverSquid4 votes

I read Wesley's Twitter today. I can really see their point, but I doubt they can see ours. I also don't know how they assess how "niche" this whole RE business is.

PS: Also someone just went ahead and mindlessly downvoted every single comment of mine. I really like it when people express their opinions, but that stuff just seems hateful. I'd love to know what people want to accomplish with that?

IxtaliKing3 votes

There's actually a few dedicated people who down vote ANYTHING Karma related, whether it's a rework, suggestion, or even a simple question. Ignore it, nobody has ever successfully managed to refute any of your arguments regarding Karma and that speaks volumes.

inplane3 votes

{quoted}

There's actually a few dedicated people who down vote ANYTHING Karma related, whether it's a rework, suggestion, or even a simple question. Ignore it, nobody has ever successfully managed to refute any of your arguments regarding Karma and that speaks volumes.

Yeah. It's guaranteed that haters are going to downvote some topics. It's like a desperate attempt to hide an issue that they would like to persist. It's sad, but that's what happens when a like/dislike system is in place.

SilverSquid1 votes

Maybe I am naive, but I just can't rationalize how people could be that spiteful.

As with the Lulu-main in my other post, I think they are just afraid that attention to Karma will draw attention away from the things they prioritize. Downvoting everything else instead of contributing yourself seems to be inefficient to me, but what do I know.

inplane2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe I am naive, but I just can't rationalize how people could be that spiteful.

As with the Lulu-main in my other post, I think they are just afraid that attention to Karma will draw attention away from the things they prioritize. Downvoting everything else instead of contributing yourself seems to be inefficient to me, but what do I know.

Something like that. One of the other reasons is that they're scared a champ they have a hard time beating is getting something beneficial, so preventing it would be the best plan of action for them (Even though their plan of action is pathetic).

People who have posted the issues regarding the latest Taliyah changes were downvoted to hell too because other people don't like Taliyah. They want her to remain weak and underplayed. Those very people also used the "inexperienced" card and said Taliyah mains are just not familiar with it and should stop posting. I wont mention who, but one person said to "practice more in Normals" when I posted about something that isn't possible to do anymore. Some people are just that unhelpful and spiteful.

SilverSquid2 votes

I have a saying. It goes a bit like this:

"Doesn't all the bad in the world happen in the end, because someone in the bunch didn't understand? Because someone in the bunch just didn't care? So how do you dare? How do you dare, telling me I shouldn't try to be aware? Or try to treat everyone like a friend."

If humanity doesn't stop being ignorant it will continue running into knives it doesn't see or builds itself. And it hurts to watch.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

70% of players wouldn't know a good design from pile of shit

SilverSquid4 votes

Well, most players aren't game designers. What's your point?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

Well, most players aren't game designers. What's your point?

my point is that in the case of players quality is better than quantity

tell me how far players are going to stop this rather than how many of them are stricken by the mob mentality

SilverSquid3 votes

Well, in terms of a company's sucess having more players might be beneficial. For having a meaningful discussion, quality usually prevails.

How... "far" are we going to stop this? What?

71883083DEL12 votes

150 people isn't enough to represent the entire playerbase. but yes, you can say 70% of 150 is a lot of players. (105)

SeekerofSilence2 votes

I disagreed with Riot's change to not let Soraka heal minions. It was the funniest thing ever to deny the canon with a swift heal. T-T

ArdentEye1 votes

[deleted]

SilverSquid7 votes

I disagreed with that unnecessary Karma buff in 6.6 that made her the problem she is right now. In the meantime I have proposed many ways of adressing Karma's overbuffed and bland state. And I disagree with Riots shortsighted incoming nerfs.

I don't care if she gets nerfed. But I care how she gets nerfed.

The Deckowner1 votes

Did Rito bring back solo queue after the entire board asking for it?

SilverSquid2 votes

No. Doesn't mean it's not a stupid decision. Doesn't mean we should stop talking with them.

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