Remember when ranged base stats didn't compete with melee in seasons 1 and 2?

WoonStruck·Oct 29, 2016·93 votes·3,258 views

There was actually a trade-off for being ranged. What a nice time that was.

72 Comments

Sona x RubickOct 29, 201638 votes

remember when creeps did high damage until riot nerfed creeps? they needed ranged to dominate melees.

ProfDrDeathOct 29, 201622 votes

Ranged still have lower stats across the boards. Nice circlejerk, though.

For instance, ranged HP@18 ranges from 1645 (mini Gnar ) to 2099.5 ( Urgot ), with three additional champions with over 2000 base HP ( Morgana Ryze Swain , all of which need to go into the thick of things for at least parts of their kits). Melees range from 1766 ( Mordekaiser ) to 2415.4 ( Alistar ), with 9 champions featuring over 2200 HP.

Zero Skill TankOct 29, 201612 votes

This. Ranged champs still do pay off. The only problems are keystones, which are way more useful for rangeds ATM, and several champions who simply happen to be broken and ranged At the same time, like Kennen and Jayce.

ProfDrDeathOct 29, 201612 votes

Which keystones favor ranged currently?

Warlord's general sustain is better for melees (50% effective against minions for melee, 25% for ranged)
Fervor grants 2 stacks for melee autos, but only one for ranged. This is true for both Live and PBE Fervor.
Deathfire Touch works on spell hits, and thus is relatively unaffected by the user's AA range
Stormraider's procs on a distinct amount of damage
Thunderlord's kind-of favors ranged, but that can be attributed more to the general advantage of ranged auto-attacks than something intrinsic to the mastery. Also, would be weird if a 3 hit effect was four hits for ranged or something like that
Windspeaker's is not relevant here
Grasp is weakened for ranged champions
Courage is actually better for melees, as it grants a bigger shield for nearby enemies
Bond of Stone is actually counterproductive for ranged, as they'd want to stay out of damage

Or do you mean the smallfry keystones? I'd go with you there, especially for the new Fresh Blood and Greenfather's - they could both use a longer CD for ranged champions.

Zero Skill TankOct 29, 201621 votes

The thing is, while some of them are reduced in effectiveness for ranged, ranged champions have much easier time using them in lane, giving them a lot of advantage. It doesn't matter that fervor is halved if ranged champion issues 4-5 as much basic attacks on melee enemy in lane.

warmcorntortillaOct 30, 20161 votes

But most top laners have a significantly more impactful teamfight presence than most ranged champions. Why do you need to necessarily win lane as Nautilus, Singed, Darius, Illaoi, J4 etc when their teamfighting is where all the value in their kits is?

Zero Skill TankOct 30, 20164 votes

That's exactly the second part:

several champions who simply happen to be broken and ranged

Kennen's teamfighting presence at the moment is vastly superior to Naut, Aloha or Dario. Jayce isn't great teamfighter, but he is above god tier splitpusher, and this value of him does not fall off with game time. Kayle falls off, but thanks to her ult - only a little bit, definitely not enough to make up for her bullying.

As I said, ranged champions do pay off, except for keystones. Some of them tho, are completely broken right now.

warmcorntortillaOct 30, 20161 votes

Ah, yes, Kennen. I don't go top lane often, and when I do, I play adcs (because they're what I can play). So I notice that while I might win lane with more cs, my teamfighting presence is extraordinarily lackluster compared to them. I've never had such a miserable realization in my life as I did playing cait top, feeling v pleased with my +50 cs, and then realizing as soon as the enemy nautilus ulted my own botlane adc that I'd Fucked Up.

Kennen doesn't have that problem, so I see what you're saying with regards to him and Jayce and other, more traditional, top lane melee bullies.

WoonStruckOct 29, 201616 votes

If you look at all of the champions, its pretty mixed.

Ranged ADCs specifically used to all be in/around the bottom 1/3 of base stats. Draven used to have some of the highest base ADC stats by far. Look where he is compared to the rest now. Their itemization was (and is) stronger to make up for it. Ranged ADCs are now middle of the pack on average in base stats. And their itemization still scales absurdly with itself compared to other itemization. And they scale better with masteries now far better than anyone else.

Mages in general, and especially long-ranged control mages, used to have the worst base stats in the game. Bottom 1/4. This is no longer the case, outside of some of the older champs in the game.

ACENOXOct 29, 20169 votes

nice joke m8, but i didn't laugh

i don't care about lvl 18 stats, it won't matter if you lose the game in the first 5 min, i do care about lvl 1 stats ranged like kennen bullying melees with a high base ad, and melees not being able to do anything

cause fuck doran shield-riot2016

Tik115Oct 29, 20163 votes

Hashtag/MakeDoranshieldgreatagain

LeetriOct 29, 20163 votes

Kennen has low base AD tho. Even Janna has a higher base AD than Kennen.

RocketRelmOct 30, 20162 votes

To be fair, what games are you losing in the first five minutes?

When I hear that, what comes to my mind is "oh, they got first blood, my team sucks gg, can I int now chat?".

Fashion MageOct 30, 20164 votes

This melee circlejerk is so dull, I hope it ends soon.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 29, 201612 votes

atm there isn't big difference between ranged and melee. actually most ad carries have more base armor then jax. all of them do i think. jhin has higher base ad than most melee champs and he gets tons free from his passive too

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20163 votes

Please buff Jax.

AreOct 29, 20163 votes

There was an old design philosophy, but I'm not sure if it's still in use today.

Tanks have naturally high offensive stats and base damage because they don't build offense, they go defense. Conversely, assassins have higher base defenses because they don't build defensive, they go offensive.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 29, 20164 votes

if thats their philisophy they need to make tank stats scale as well as damage stats

WoonStruckOct 29, 20167 votes

The problem with the new design philosophy is that the defensive benefits that many melee have are not as strong as you'd think because their base stats suffer for it. Meanwhile many ranged champs now have high base stats because they don't usually build defensively (a choice) or have direct defensive tools...

The only 'high offensive stat' tanks have now tends to be base AD, and the difference isn't very significant. You don't get many auto attacks off, since most are melee, and your base damages are often still equal to or surpassed by ranged.

Ranged have everything going for them in this game (including MS via itemization), while melee have everything going against them.

Any time tanks are a threat, Riot nerfs them for having the audacity to encourage anything other than glass-cannon builds on ADCs.

KingnewgameplusOct 30, 20161 votes

Tanks have naturally high offensive stats and base damage because they don't build offense, they go defense. Conversely, assassins have higher base defenses because they don't build defensive, they go offensive.

Alistar 2400 base health at level 18 LOL

AreOct 31, 20161 votes

What's your point?

Alistar also has higher base damage than most other ADC at level 1, and level 18. He doesn't offer much in the way of offense, so he might as well have high HP and decent offense.

Teemo and Janna have higher armor than Alistar at level 18. They don't normally build armor, so they naturally have higher base armor at level 18.

Teemo, Lulu, and Tristana all have higher HP than Shen at level 1 and level 18. They don't normally build HP, so they have higher base HP than a Shen, who would normally be building HP along with his tank items. Conversely, Shen will have higher base AD than all 3 throughout the game, because he doesn't build offense like they do.

Raid Boss MordeOct 29, 20161 votes

27 Base armor, that's pretty average.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 29, 20162 votes

am talking about at level 18. early game its all meaningless really since most champions have pretty similar stats

The Yetii RiderOct 29, 20167 votes

Oh season 2. When Olaf was a monster and Randuin's was a powerful anti-kiting tool.

Also when Phage randomly won the lane because you got three slows in a row.

ZerenzaOct 29, 20164 votes

The only issue i have with ADC's is perfect kiting, it's super easy and champs like Jhin, Caitlynn, Tristana have high range and are pretty mobile(jhin has a movement speed buff thats actually really good) and so when they kite you and crit for 1500+ damage, heal for half that and still aren't dead from burst damage it's a little annoying.

I actually had a game where i was a full build katarina(full damage with a zhonya's) and i tried to assassinate a fullbuild Miss Fortune(not using the armor pen build but her old build) and my burst was not enough to one shot her, she healed with one auto attack her whole health bar and i had to zhonya's and then i proceeded to loose because the said auto attack does my whole health bar.

I really do think that ADC are over tuned and could use some nerfs across the board because the things that counter them just don't anymore. I think it's mainly itemization though cause some of these ADC items are just so busted.

CorruptedScytheOct 29, 20162 votes

Perfect kiting is easy? Yeah. Okay.

ZerenzaOct 29, 20167 votes

Perfect kiting really only works in LoL it doesn't exist in other games of the same format in the same way it exist in league where an ADC can litterally stay completely out of danger with it, no punishment available for the melee player.

Dominick DestineOct 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Perfect kiting really only works in LoL it doesn't exist in other games of the same format

U WOT M8?

Have you ever played HoN? DotA? kiting is significantly easier because disables are unbelievably more powerful and characters have greater range.

Sona x RubickOct 30, 20166 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

kiting like in league in dota2 is impossible, literally impssible due to turn rates you can kite with disables, but disables are countered easily in dota2 (and not "build tenacity") this is the reason you can counter kiting in dota2.

Dominick DestineOct 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xQWxzWpR,comment-id=00080000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-30T07:31:38.369+0000)

kiting in dota2 is impossible, literally impssible

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

CastaneanOct 30, 20166 votes

kiting like in league in dota2 is impossible

Leaving out those tiny little very important details [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Irelia BotOct 30, 20163 votes

Considering in Dota 2 the only 2 ranged hero that can kit anywhere near as effectively as what marksmen in league can do are Drow who has frost arrows and Sniper who has crazy long range and the lack of turn speed in League yes it is rather easy to do in league.

JackMcSnipeyzOct 30, 20161 votes

If you couldnt burst a MF with a katrina combo you have bigger problems than that.

DengedenOct 29, 20163 votes

He's talking about Gnar Jayce isn't he?

Sebbo the PlebboOct 29, 20169 votes

Aside from the fact mini-gnar has some of the worst base stats in the game

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20163 votes

Remember when ADCs sucked garbage until full build season 2? Not fun times.

Dextix LTOct 29, 20164 votes

Isn't that the fucking purpose of ad carries? They are shit until late when they become a threat?

AirKingNeoOct 29, 20161 votes

No, they're supposed to be tank killers with DPS but also should be diverse. Lane bullies, mid game champs, late game carries.

ParoeOct 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No, they're supposed to be tank killers with DPS but also should be diverse. Lane bullies, mid game champs, late game carries.

in the long beyond, marksmans intended purpose was specifically to take towers and seige; attack speed combined with AD. ADCs are indispensable; they will always, 100%, be in competitive play. Because of this marksman mains complained that they werent doing enough damage, so riot invented CRIT. Crit turned out to be so toxic, that DODGE was created to be its direct counter. Dodge turned out to be poorly implemented and was removed as 'the greater of two evils', but that didnt change the fact crit was broken. just like with balls of stats like irelia and lee-sin, it had lived to the point where it "just was" and so was immune to greater changes until riot developed an entirely new system.

Over time crit and AD itemization in general was buffed. there have been few seasons where AD itemization was not improved and tank/AP itemization weakened in some way.

Irelia BotOct 30, 20163 votes

Only if you keep that mind set and don't think things like ohmwrecker if it were buffed to 4 or 5 seconds of disabling a turret does this concept of "mandatory for siege" have any merit.

It is only that way because people keep saying it has to be that way but I have seen the light of Dota 2 and that you don't have to have a ranged attack damage carry as mandatory.

ParoeOct 30, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xQWxzWpR,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T04:22:39.329+0000)

Only if you keep that mind set and don't think things like ohmwrecker if it were buffed to 4 or 5 seconds of disabling a turret does this concept of "mandatory for siege" have any merit.

It is only that way because people keep saying it has to be that way but I have seen the light of Dota 2 and that you don't have to have a ranged attack damage carry as mandatory.

In league, the purpose of the marksman was originally to siege very well. it was the niche of the role. Ohm is a lot less of a seige item and more a "sustained dive" item anyway. Turrets in dota 2 are also much better and an actual threat, unlike in league.

Also, Drow ranger is a lot like pre-rework ashe =/ i miss my ashe support... drow ranger support is fun.

chipndip1Oct 30, 20162 votes

How is Lee Sin a ball of stats?

Irelia BotOct 30, 20163 votes

I think that is called a healthy tradeoff in most games.

AirKingNeoOct 30, 20161 votes

I'm saying we should have marksmen that can be lane bullies and fall off late game, while also being terrible top lane.

Dextix LTOct 30, 20163 votes

But Riot sucks at balancing those kinds of champs.

Let's look at lucian for example. He is an early game bully like no other. But in mid-late game he does not fall off for shit. Now someone like pantheon, falls off for his early power, lucian though? Nope.

Its alright to have many marksman classes, but at least balance them properly.

The SoulforgedOct 29, 20163 votes

I remember when adc's didn't obliterate people.

LatetotheRaceOct 29, 201614 votes

They didn't have 1-2k crits or self-peel. They had to rely on shudder shudder their team!!! Those were the days....

The SoulforgedOct 29, 20164 votes

They were good days imo. Although, teamfights did drag on for a huge amount of time then, and tanks actually tanked and were a nightmare even alone for a team to kill.

LatetotheRaceOct 29, 20161 votes

No sarcasm intended.

The SoulforgedOct 29, 20161 votes