Why is Stinger still in the game?

Gnart Even Close·Apr 23, 2016·6 votes·1,273 views

The only item it builds into still is Nashor's Tooth (on Summoner's Rift), and as it gives on-hit damage, it would make way more sense to build out of Recurve Bow. A slightly different build for Nashor's Tooth and the replacement of Dervish Blade with Mercurial Scimitar (its counterpart on the other two maps) would be the only other change besides removing the item, and I highly doubt that anybody would miss the item as long as Merc Scimitar was available as a replacement. Even if Zephyr were to be reimplemented, other items could build into it, like Zeal (which would make more sense for the movement speed anyways).

I honestly see no reason for it to still be in the game, and I would think it just adds more maintenance cost than anything to the game and Rito would want to remove it.

32 Comments

Pika310Apr 25, 20163 votes

Zephyr needs to be re-added back into the game. Rito didn't have a good reason for removing it and it was an essential item option for a select list of champions. Irelia

Aside from just being a late-game replacement for boots, the tenacity it offered gave an important alternative to Mercury Treads. It allowed the building of other boots like Swift, Tabi or Zerker's without completely forgoing tenacity in your build somewhere. At the same time, it gave a great upgrade option for when you have to buy that random pickaxe. As things currently stand, the highest movespeed items in the game are all AP, being either of the two Echos or Lich Bane, whilst Zeal items keep getting repeatedly nerfed, with Hurricane being the only 1 still left above 5%, yet it's not a true AD item and the mass majority of champs who CAN viably build it find the Crit to be an awkward and underutilized stat, yet crit was removed from Ghostblade for that exact same reason.

Personally, I don't like the fact that if you're AD, the only way to build MS is with Zeal. Many champs don't utilize either the AS or Crit, same as AP was removed from Sheen because it was a wasted stat. Sure you have Deadman's, but the moment you attack something, you lose all of it. Yes there's Ghostblade too, but that's it. BoRK is less flexible than either of these and Duskblade is... yeah, no.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20162 votes

there's too much movement speed in the game as is. they should probably nerf the ap movement speed if anything.

the tenacity was really nice though and i wish there was another item that gave it so you weren't forced to get merc treads for the tenacity

Pika310Apr 25, 20162 votes

Personally, I never understood why Runic Echoes even has movement speed on it. Or at most why its MS is allowed to be so absurdly high. To this day, I still see tank junglers buying it even after the last nerf. What Rito fails to understand is that the item is not built for the AP it gives, it's yet one more artificial number that creates its own damage source completely disregarding your champ's kit or the other items you build. While most other artificial numbers have specific requirements to make them worth using(Spellblade, Nashor's, etc.), the Echo passive has always been "Do you press keys? Yes? Then build this item." Its absurd generality combined with its high-end AP stat and having the highest %MS in the game makes Luden's insanely overloaded.

Gnart Even CloseApr 26, 20162 votes

it doesn't make much sense really that they should allow this to happen

Irelia BotApr 23, 20162 votes

Riot please replaced the Zeal on Trinity with Stinger.

Then replace the CDR on sheen with 5% movement speed since the movement speed is really nice to have.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 23, 20162 votes

Movement speed doesn't make any sense on Sheen

Irelia BotApr 23, 20163 votes

That is one opinion.

But Movement speed is already on 2 of the 3 items that sheen builds into so it would not be that much of a stretch to change it to have movement speed instead of CDR.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 23, 20163 votes

No seriously, how does it make any sense? The two beneficial modifiers for casting abilities are mana and CDR, which Sheeb provides. What benefit does MS give?

Irelia BotApr 23, 20163 votes

Alas it is a matter of differing views on how an item should work or what it should offer.

There is no real right and wrong answer so long as the item is proving to serve it's reason to be bought.

Trinity is the subjective problem after preseason changes to "bring it more in line" have left it in a spot that feels worse for many trinity reliant champs who usually have on hit effects or 3 hit passives. The movement speed feels far more core to how it functions then the crit chance which does not functionally provide any control. IT was completely fine and functional without any CDR on sheen.

Gnart Even CloseApr 24, 20162 votes

i certainly see your reasoning, but the mana/CDR makes more sense for the fantasy of sheen (spellcasting with autos in between) than movement speed, and the movement speed comes from either zeal or aether wisp, which would mean that there would be too much movement speed. rito also recently said that they want to take some movement speed out of the game, so it's highly unlikely they would add it to such a common and important item. i agree that the crit on trinity force makes no sense and honestly shouldn't be there, but the movement speed on it would probably have to go as well with zeal. i believe they said they tested recurve bow and it just didn't work out, but i wonder if they couldn't make something else work instead

Irelia BotApr 24, 20162 votes

The thing is that both of those items could easily be replaced with something else if sheen were to get movement speed. Replace the aether wisp in lich bane with fiendish codex so it keeps the MS and CDR and zeal with either stinger or recurve bow depending on if it is to keep CDR or change it out with some on hit damage.

Another option is to nerf the rage passive on phage to half of what it is and make if have something like 4% movement speed. This seems like a bit of a bad option though since the phage passive is a nice sticky factor that was added to replace the RNG slow proc it could have up until fairly late season 3.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20162 votes

it would need a lot of changes. i'm sure rito can think of something to make it all work out

Pika310Apr 25, 20163 votes

Personally, I don't trust Rito to make anything "work out." It's common knowledge they make changes to this game solely based on their own biases and whims, with complete disregard for true balance or even community approval.

Pika310Apr 25, 20163 votes

...and yet 2 of the 3 items it builds into give MS. The only viable argument you have is not giving Iceborn users more MS, which personally I think is a shaky excuse at best. Especially if Rito finally makes it melee-only like they should've done months ago.

Zero Skill TankApr 23, 20162 votes

The thing about on-hitters is that they probably value some AS more than a little on-hit damage, just like champion with lots of AD likes AS more than another bit of AD. Stinger with it's 50% AS is much better for them than Recurve Bow with pitiful 10 on-hit. This 10 on-hit damage was added to help AD marksmen build it, as pure attack speed isn't good for them early, because early their autoattaks deal little damage.

Prime Nashor's users - what basically means Teemo Azir Diana and Kayle - will value Stinger more than Recurve Bow.

Also Recurve bow only grants 25% AS. If Nashor's were to be build out of it, it's buildpath would probably need to include another dagger, and thus be a little less friendly.

Gnart Even CloseApr 24, 20161 votes

another dagger wouldn't be the end of the world; look at phantom dancer's build path. i guess you could say that the AS is more valuable than the on-hit, but it makes very little sense to maintain such a bland item that only builds into one other item. it doesn't offer any cool passives or anything. if it was reworked or if it actually built into more options, i would say it was worth keeping. but look at other items that only have one upgrade. i'll take hexdrinker for example. it is a widely loved/hated item, but at least it has an interesting passive. stinger has nothing of the sort. tiamat used to be the same before titanic hydra was introcduced. giant slayer and executioner's calling also have interesting passives. whether or not you like said items is besides the point, my point is that they have passives that do things other than just gives 10% CDR. i would love to see a more interesting stinger, especially since it has an interesting inspiration from the hobbit, but it just doesn't seem like rito would think it would be worth the time and would rather just simplify the game and have one less item to worry about and make the upgrade make more sense (on-hit damage upgrades into better on-hit damage). all of those champions that you listted could still function perfectly fine with recurve bow instead of stinger, even though it might not be preferred on all of them (especially azir would not benefit from it).

tl;dr stinger has a weak identity, and recurve bow would make more sense as a component item

Zero Skill TankApr 24, 20161 votes

Stinger has quite a strong identity, as cheapest high-as item. It gives more AS than most tier 3 items.

another dagger wouldn't be the end of the world; look at phantom dancer's build path.

No it wouldn't, but it would still make buildpath less appealing for Nashors, because difference between Recurve and Stinger is actually 2 daggers of attacks speed, and 10 CDR.

but it just doesn't seem like rito would think it would be worth the time and would rather just simplify the game and have one less item to worry about

Actually it seems they do think it's worth it, considering they buffed it quite recently.

upgrade make more sense (on-hit damage upgrades into better on-hit damage)

Again - prime Nashor's tooth users don't care at all about 10 on-hit damage, while Stinger is quite a powerspike for them. If this change was made, they would need to buff Nashor's itself - and why risk disbalancing perfectly fine item?

Irelia BotApr 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Stinger has quite a strong identity, as cheapest high-as item. It gives more AS than most tier 3 items.

No it wouldn't, but it would still make buildpath less appealing for Nashors, because difference between Recurve and Stinger is actually 2 daggers of attacks speed, and 10 CDR.

Actually it seems they do think it's worth it, considering they buffed it quite recently.

Again - prime Nashor's tooth users don't care at all about 10 on-hit damage, while Stinger is quite a powerspike for them. If this change was made, they would need to buff Nashor's itself - and why risk disbalancing perfectly fine item?

I just want Trinity to feel better then it currently does for non crit focused champs. But taking the movement speed away would just feel more like an all around nerf then anything which is why I want to see movement speed on the next best option of Sheen since it already has 2 of 3 items it builds into giving movement speed. If the MS was moved to sheen I see no reason why a recurve bow or stinger would not work as part of trinity.

If you look at the trinity icon it shows a sheen, zeal and stinger. the build path has been changed before although that was well before my time when i started playing.

Zero Skill TankApr 24, 20161 votes

If the MS was moved to sheen I see no reason why a recurve bow or stinger would not work as part of trinity.

Because Stinger grants more than 3 times as much AS as Trinity Force does?

Recurve bow is only 25, I guess that one could work if we somehow replaced TF crit with this 10% AS and on-hit... But that requires tinkering with many items, i.e. Iceborn Gauntlet suddenly would need to grant MS coz of sheen, and than it would make for crazy bruiser combo with BC.

Irelia BotApr 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because Stinger grants more than 3 times as much AS as Trinity Force does?

Recurve bow is only 25, I guess that one could work if we somehow replaced TF crit with this 10% AS and on-hit... But that requires tinkering with many items, i.e. Iceborn Gauntlet suddenly would need to grant MS coz of sheen, and than it would make for crazy bruiser combo with BC.

-20% crit chance +30% attack speed.

Depends on which champ you are playing but with a bit of a gold cost reduction this would make it in the ballpark for getting still. and having 10% CDR still on trinity. I still would likely prefer Recurve Bow with 30% attack speed and and on hit magic damage instead.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20161 votes

trinity force does need some changes, and hopefully rito will address that sometime soon

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20161 votes

stats shouldn't make a strong identity. the only time that's really a good thing is on items like Rabadon's and Infinity Edge where the idea is that they are the items that give the most damage in the game without any utility as compensation. look at nashor's tooth. it's identity isn't the high attack speed, it's the on-hit effect. passives should and do define good items, and there aren't any on stinger.

nashor's itself wouldn't need buffs, it is fine as it is. the item path change wouldn't be the end of the world, as the combine cost would still be pretty similar. prime nashor's users are supposed to combine attacks and magic damage spells. if they want nashor's for the on-hit, which is the core fantasy of the item, then recurve bow should be fine on them. the only person who doesn't really use the on-hit at all is azir, but he's a special champion anyways

Zero Skill TankApr 25, 20161 votes

No, Recurve bow won't be fine for them, power spike they get from it is negligible compared to Stinger. Recurve bow is fine for marksman, who's basic attack don't deal much damage early at the game. Just like AD stacks badly with AD if you don't alternate them it AS, on-hits stack badly with on-hits. Especially laughable 10 damage on-hits compared to high-end 50% AS.

Stinger's identity might come from boring sources, yes it is a "stat-stick", but this identity is there, it's the cheapest and purest high-as item in game, and for those few champions who use Nashor's, it is very important item.

Just yesterday there was another thread when somebody asked to get something AD build from Stinger after removal of Zephyr.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20161 votes

a high attack speed item builds into an ap item...

that's a pretty bad identity

the power spike is supposed to help champions that use basic attacks, so on-hit damage should be good. instead of having more attacks, each attack is stronger. early on into the game, it's probably stronger anyways, especially considering it's bonus attack speed not total attack speed and they're probably taking attack speed runes and have a decent amount of attack speed from levels already.

Zero Skill TankApr 25, 20161 votes

No, it's not stronger at any point on any champion. 10 on-hit damage is pitiful. Say for lvl 9 Teemo, 10 on-hit from recurve is less than 8% dps increase, while 25% AS more from Stinger is more than 14%. IF Teemo doesn't buy Nashor's first but second, what he normally does, Recurve becomes that more shitty.

And for other champions it's even worse - i.e. Azir can't apply on-hit at all with his soldiers.

And than we get to 10% CDR, which recurve also doesn't have.

a high attack speed item builds into an ap item...

that's a pretty bad identity

Just because there are few champions to use this combination of stats effectively doesn't mean there is something wrong with this. Stinger is there exactly to help them get high AS quicker.

Gnart Even CloseApr 26, 20161 votes

15 (it's actually 15 not 10) on-hit damage is significantly better for harass, since each auto does more damage. it also helps with last-hitting and the like, so there is an appreciable benefit to having on-hit damage as opposed to attack speed. attack speed would be better for extended trades. the CDR is definitely way better on stinger, but my point is that it's not the end of the world, and recurve is also 200 gold cheaper

The LovelessApr 24, 20162 votes

Nobody wants bare attack speed. If they make another upgrade, it needs to have more than the 25 ad that zephyr had, or it needs to be an on-hit item that can stand on its own and doesn't require more items to support it before it becomes worthy.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20161 votes

basically. it was an interesting idea to have an item that could replace boots though in the very late game

QuephaApr 24, 20161 votes

Instead they should make another item build out of stinger. Attack speed and cdr is a combination that several champions would be interested in if only stinger had more support.

Gnart Even CloseApr 25, 20161 votes

it is, but sadly it's extremely underused right now. i would like to see another AS/CDR item, but I don't think any will be coming out anytime soon