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Should Red and Blue Buff be droppable like Rift Herald?

Gnart Even Close··55 votes·3,461 views

Rift Herald became droppable so that junglers could secure it with Smite and give it to a laner who could better use it. Junglers need the money and experience from the Red and Blue Buffs, but they often have to give it to someone else because they need the buff more. If Red and Blue Buff were droppable, the jungler could secure them with Smite, get the gold and exp, and only hand off the buff to the ADC or mid laner (or anyone else who needs the buff). The down side would be that it would be harder to steal the buffs, but that can still be done by invading. This would take away a bit form some direct conflict, but the QOL benefits from it would imo greatly outweigh this. One way to counteract this would be to make it so that the buff could be picked up by teammates on either side, so that people could still try to steal it directly.

Thoughts?

Edit: Kile147 proposed that the buff could be picked up from a range, which would allow mid laners to get it without going around the wall. This is the best solution I have seen so far to this problem.

Also, my idea to have both teams be able to pick it up was not a good idea, as it undermines the point of stealing the last hit. It should only be able to be picked up by the team that killed it.

76 Comments

Best Darius KR21 votes

But then you would see energy/no mana costs junglers start to dominate the jungle, since they would be able to give the the first blue buff to the mid laner.

Ichinose2 votes

THE RETURN OF THE ZAC , LEE SIN AND RIVEN <3

why not ? :3

Saianna12 votes

return? did they leave somewhere?

Ichinose3 votes

yeah ?

At least return of Zac jungle , I didn't seen any Zac jungle for a long time.

Saianna4 votes

StoneWall008 has foreseen Zacs "ressurection" few weeks ago, so i'm not surprised

dr lichdeath1 votes

seen lots of zacs no clue watcha talkin about

Hello I am Bird2 votes

tbf, he is on free rotation >.>

I Miss Cannon4 votes

Hunters Potion gives an infinite source of mana anyways.

SolusInCadere5 votes

item 2032 is a joke. It either delays your jungle item, or your first 'real' item. Either way, it puts you way behind and almost instantly becomes obsolete, as you'll purchase it toward the end of the laning phase even if you get it right after jungle item.

Most junglers can sustain fine without it. Its better to get consumable pots for the better early clear.

Hello I am Bird2 votes

I rush item 2031 into item 2032 as soon as I first back.

It refills so much health and makes sure I don't have to rush any sort of other sustain.

I'm buying the refilable potion anyways, I may as well up it for another 400 gold I think it is?

Infinite sustain for the cost of a item 1028? I will take it c:

SolusInCadere3 votes

"infinite sustain" that you instantly drop after laning phase. and you're picking it up over half-way through the laneing pahse if you want even one item first. Getting it on first back is denying yourself the massive powerspike that is the jungle enchantment, and may even be denying yourself enhanced smite, depending on how extensive your first clear is.

I Miss Cannon2 votes

Considering how many normal potions are needed on non-sustain junglers, Hunters Potion doesn't delay anything more than health potions would and aditionally also fasten your clear speed because you don't have to converse mana. So no , you're horribly wrong.

SolusInCadere1 votes

non-sustain junglers don't exist anymore. item 1041 grants LS vs. Monsters, and item 1039 steals hp from monsters on damage. Plus most junglers have some kind of innate sustain. Be it heals or shields.

Between those two effects and innate sustain, constantly buying consumable potions doesn't need to happen

GrReaper961 votes

Personally i feel item 2032 is more of a ganking item. After a gank you usually have low health and healing in the jug takes too long for some jungler, not to mention the lack of mana. item 2032 helps you gank more frequently since it heals you up faster and you can regain charges in jungle.

SolusInCadere1 votes

I would agree, except if I'm ganking frequently or at all, I don't want to drop that kind of early game gold on item 2032, especially since I'm already poorer than lanes.

Aazzlano1 votes

{quoted}

I would agree, except if I'm ganking frequently or at all, I don't want to drop that kind of early game gold on item 2032, especially since I'm already poorer than lanes.

I don't mean to be rude, but you mostly play Bot games. In real games, Hunter's Potion is great on people who like to be healthy enough to make plays at any point. I build it all the time and I never really regret it. It's always worth the sustain and since I would have just bought potions anyway to ensure I'm healthy enough for whatever happens, it is the same thing and lasts until you sell it. At which point it gives you some gold back.

Great item, only thing is that it heals a bit slow, but the actual total healing you get from it is phenomenal.

SolusInCadere1 votes

I play mostly bot games becuase I'm constantly strapped for gaming time and by duo-queue partner only plays on weekends.

Anyway, in a 'real game' every point I made still stands

Aazzlano1 votes

{quoted}

I play mostly bot games becuase I'm constantly strapped for gaming time and by duo-queue partner only plays on weekends.

Anyway, in a 'real game' every point I made still stands

No it doesn't. You can be a par or subpar jungler if you wish to, but if you want to be ahead you should press advantages and the low price of this item compared to how much gold and experience you get with not having to back or being able to make more aggressive plays with it is more than enough to offset it.

SolusInCadere1 votes

Okay, so I've begun taking Hunter's potion in games now, but I still start 3xHP pots becuase the early sustain is very good. On most champions I can do a full clear, or a partial clear and gank, but Hunter's potion IS nice to pick up after that for the long haul of getting jungle enchantment

WarlockLaw3 votes

Every time I've bought it I've regretted the decision as soon as I got to my second camp after it. The first clear is the only one that truly needs a lot of sustain

Gnart Even Close1 votes

{quoted}

But then you would see energy/no mana costs junglers start to dominate the jungle, since they would be able to give the the first blue buff to the mid laner.

not necessarily. they might want it for the early CDR, seeing as how most of those champs rely on spamming their abilities to clear as fast as possible.

Sightless661 votes

10% CDR when you have no other CDR to make it stronger is pretty weak. That's not netting you a very significant increase in your dps.

I mean, it's not useless on them, but it will pretty much always be better to have it on the midlaner, and the ability to give it to the midlaner with very minimal costs will be a major advantage to having manaless junglers. That does have to be taken into account.

SolusInCadere1 votes

CDR does not make more CDR stronger? Even if it did, the point still stands. And not even that, but for the exp and gold. Blue buff is normally my second or third camp unless I'm doing a SUPER early gank, so that's not going to my mid laner anyway. The ones after that, sure, but the very first blue buff will not go to mid laners

Sightless661 votes

CDR does not make more CDR stronger?

Oh, it definitely does. Mathematically, every point of CDR makes every past point of CDR more effective. You can calculate it out. 10% cdr gives an 11.1% increase in spell dps. 40% gives a 66% in spell dps. If I could get 50%, that would be a 100% increase in spell dps.

This is why you never see competitive builds that sit at only 10% CDR (even sitting at 20% isn't desirable). It just doesn't do much compared to what those later points of CDR do.

Blue buff is normally my second or third camp unless I'm doing a SUPER early gank, so that's not going to my mid laner anyway.

You can't say that you wouldn't ever give up blue just because your current camp order doesn't allow for it. Camp order can easily change. The advantages to getting the small camps first are present, but they aren't that large. Give me a significant benefit for taking blue first (namely, that I can pass the buff off and I get more leashing from the midlaner), and I will.

Seriously man, the camp order changes all the time based on jungle changes. It doesn't take a major change for a new order to come about. Even minor changes can create new ideal jungle orders, and this change isn't minor.

It will happen, and it is a problem that has to be addressed.

passıon1 votes

This is a pretty good case/argument

Slamurai Jack16 votes

No, because then you couldn't hand off blue buffs over the wall. That's a bigger deal than you might think.

kile1472 votes

Make it so that the dropped relic can be channeled and picked up from range

Colgate Minuette9 votes

No there will be no more stealing over walls or anything or even handing over buffs over walls

kile1474 votes

They could just make it so that it drops at the feet of the person who kills the buff, and can be "picked up" from a small range. If you steal over wall it drops at your feet and you pick it up and run, if jungled smites and wants to give to laner they just pick it up through wall.

kaltenashes2 votes

Should Red and Blue Buff be droppable like Rift Herald?

are you copying this from me? LOL

nevertheless although i think this is a good idea (the moba smite apply this concept and they have a "ping": come get the buff), it's going to make handing buffs over the wall impossible, and a lot of people gonna rage at riot over this

still the drop close to the killer's feet is a good solution for the steal, as long as it's fast and doesnt compromise even more the stealer's life

Colgate Minuette1 votes

{quoted}

They could just make it so that it drops at the feet of the person who kills the buff, and can be "picked up" from a small range. If you steal over wall it drops at your feet and you pick it up and run, if jungled smites and wants to give to laner they just pick it up through wall.

Why tho?

That defeats the purpose if it falls at the feet of the person who killed it they might as well just get it.

This is just a useless change that does nothing good for the game. If you're suggesting this change so people can still take it over the wall then why even bother? If ahri comes from mid lane and wants blue and kills it with her Q shes gonna get blue buff anyway why bother dropping it on the floor for some troll to come pick it up?

Furthermore that adds another problem I've had fucking assholes laners try and steal my buffs all the time if I don't wana give it to them I use smite and now they can just walk over the buff and take it despite my smite? Fuck this change no. Absolutely not.

kile1472 votes

I see two major benefits to this change, one being balance the other being QoL. First off this will allow the jungler to get the gold and experience from killing the creep without taking the buff. I think that this is the biggest reason anyone should have a concern with this change because it would be a major balance change. Other people have talked about how giving manaless junglers the ability to give up first blue is a big deal.

Secondly it would make it more likely that the buff goes to who it was intended to. I have seen even pros mess up the buff transfer and have the jungler accidentally take it when they wanted the laner to have it. With these changes it becomes virtually impossible for the buff to go to someone unintended short of straight up trolling, which would be an issue anyways.

If you step on it then it would work like rift herald buff where you automatically pick it up, which I envision would be slightly faster than channeling it to grab it over the wall. This would give the actual killer the best chance at the buff, but making it easy to pass over for someone else to take. There is still certainly some troll potential in the situation but I can't imagine it would be any worse than what we currently have.

Guyy Fieri6 votes

If it's droppable, then stealing buffs becomes more difficult. Yes, I understand that if its stolen, the team that stole it would be the only team able to pick it up but if it's contested, you aren't gonna be able to steal it because you would then have to walk into the jungle.

Snake Town6 votes

As a jungle main, no. For a few reasons. First mid laners usually take blue from over the wall, so this adds extra time they spend out of lane, especially for champs without wall jumps like tf. Second smite stealing buffs over walls would be WAAYY more risky as you would actually have to go get it. And although the extra gold/exp would be nice, as primarily a tank/utility jungler I don't mind giving it to the carries instead.

Gnart Even Close2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake Town,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4y3c0lrT,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-12-14T18:53:24.489+0000)

As a jungle main, no. For a few reasons. First mid laners usually take blue from over the wall, so this adds extra time they spend out of lane, especially for champs without wall jumps like tf. Second smite stealing buffs over walls would be WAAYY more risky as you would actually have to go get it. And although the extra gold/exp would be nice, as primarily a tank/utility jungler I don't mind giving it to the carries instead.

excellent points made. i edited the post to reflect a possible solution brought up by someone else: make the buff able to be picked up from a distance. this would make it possible to steal the buff and then pick it up, or give it to the mid laner over the wall. thank you for helping discussion :)

Transgressor5 votes

No.

PlatypusSurprise2 votes

One benefit of the rift buff dropping is it stops people from having to take the beating it was giving everyone when it first came out since now you can just burn it down. Also everyone has to be roughly at the barron pit while they fight it so it's just a matter of walking a little ways to pick it up.

On the other hand for blue buff several mid laners just move far enough to hit the Golem with a spell to last hit it and get the buff. So if the buff started dropping then the mid laner would have to walk around the wall to pick it up then walk back to lane which would cost a far bit of extra time. So while it might help the jungler during their early levels it would hurt most mid lanes with the excepting of maybe wave clear mids.

LegacyDAP2 votes

Lol no, the problem with this is what happens when you get counter jungled, and somebody smite takes it? You pick it up? And this is why it won't work.

kile1471 votes

what if they dropped the relic at the feet of the person who killed it? Works essentially the same if you last hit, but still allows you to hand it off

LegacyDAP1 votes

no, because a lot of junglers (lee sin for ex) will use their q move to steal it, and when he uses his 2nd q and smite, it gives the chance for the enemy jungler to steal it. Honestly, it's just a bad idea, because it doesn't work in multiple situations, I don't know why people can't just hand off the buff by letting the other person kill it.

kile1472 votes

Only the team that killed it can pick it up.

It's not a major gameplay issue, it's a QoL thing that everyone messes up occasionally (even pros) and you feel like shit when you do.

Edit: Also this way the jungler wouldn't have to give up xp and gold to give a buff.

LegacyDAP1 votes

right, and then you have to go over their and pick it up with the possibility of getting killed. Honestly the idea just makes no sense to me. It's not a QoL buff, it's a change that would make early counter jungling useless.

kile1472 votes

It drops at the feet of the person who killed it and can be picked up from and can be picked up from a distance.

There's a lot of things that you could do to make this work.

WarlockLaw2 votes

It would actually hurt mid laners that rely on being gifted blue buff to function during laning, especially Anivia amd Swain, as they now have to walk all the way around the wall to get their buff.

Only Play Darius2 votes

One of the rewards of aggressive vision control (which is hard enough to maintain S6 to begin with) is the opportunity to steal away neutral buffs over the wall. If they were droppable this would no longer be possible.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

No, since getting buffs over walls and stealing camps would suck. I enjoy the mechanical skill it takes to steal blue/red buff with one spell with no Flash/Smite.

ThatHaleState2 votes

I disagree and think this is an unnecessary change. Competing for the buff has always been a thing. Lux stealing it cross map would no longer be a thing, and then the midlaner would have to walk all the way around to pick it up. Just no imo

revliledpembroke2 votes

So...Smite. You're asking if it could be Smite. What next, an attack speed buff? Movement speed buff?

LońeWolf2 votes

I actually like this idea, this could be fitting to a lot of things.

here is my thought.

The idea is interesting because this means that the jungler can finish off the camp gaining the exp and gold while giving the buff to the mid laner to whom ever needs it, it wastes less time and can keep the jungler happy with his share of gold and exp with the loss of the buff. This can also change the entire outcome of counter jungling, going in and stealing the buff and dashing out as fast as possible, or smiting the red buff while attacking the enemy jungler won't immedietly give you your buff to slow and deal true damage on the enemy jungler. Another plus that I can see to this, is that it lowers the chances of trolling since last hitting no longer gives the buff.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Gnart Even Close1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rabadons Fedora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4y3c0lrT,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2015-12-15T19:13:07.991+0000)

I actually like this idea, this could be fitting to a lot of things.

here is my thought.

The idea is interesting because this means that the jungler can finish off the camp gaining the exp and gold while giving the buff to the mid laner to whom ever needs it, it wastes less time and can keep the jungler happy with his share of gold and exp with the loss of the buff. This can also change the entire outcome of counter jungling, going in and stealing the buff and dashing out as fast as possible, or smiting the red buff while attacking the enemy jungler won't immedietly give you your buff to slow and deal true damage on the enemy jungler. Another plus that I can see to this, is that it lowers the chances of trolling since last hitting no longer gives the buff.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

thank you! the counterjungling dynamic would change from being a cheesy strategy to a more map awareness focused excursion. you could only really steal buffs when the jungler was away, so you would have to pay close attention. or, you could steal the kill and then kill the jungler to make sure you have time to pick it up.

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