Sunfire Cape

Gnart Even Close·Sep 10, 2015·20 votes·1,500 views

Sunfire Cape is an item that is only 80.7% gold efficient, possibly the least gold efficient non-support item on Summoner's Rift. The next closest item is BoRK, but that item has a ridiculous active and passive. Sunfire Cape should give 500 Health, 50 Armor, and the passive should be a toggle. The passive is incredibly annoying at times, as it can aggro tower, minions, monsters, etc. Also, on champions like Gnar, it makes his Rage much more difficult to manage. With these proposed changes, this item would be 89.7% gold efficient, making the toggle worth 267 gold. The purpose of this item is to give tanks more offensive power, and these changes would allow that, while also fixing some of the items more annoying problems. This item might become overpowered, but it could always be nerfed again, and the most important change would be making the passive a toggle, as that really inteferes with gameplay.

35 Comments

redniwediSSep 10, 20155 votes

Are you taking it's damage into account for the gold efficiency?

Also the passive not being a toggle is actually a little important to it's identity as an item. It's not supposed to be an item anyone picks up, it's an item for those who can handle accidental aggro. If you're not willing to deal with the extra effects of it's passive you don't buy it.

Gnart Even CloseSep 10, 20152 votes

I agree with that mostly. But why would just anyone buy this item? Only someone who needed the extra damage would go for this item instead of Dead Man's Plate, as it simply offers more utility (i.e. assassins, adcs, etc would not buy this as a defensive item). This item is only effective in extended combat, which is why it is useful for tanks and bruisers. However, just because you can take a tower shot does not mean you want to. Also, what if you don't want to push your lane and be overextended? And what if you go over Baron Pit with low health and all of a sudden Baron is aggroed onto you. This item frequently puts the user into bad situations. The toggle would not change the identity of the item but it would alleviate some of its issues.

redniwediSSep 10, 20154 votes

Users put themselves into bad situations because they play as if they do not have a Sunfire. If your goal is to not push your lane you don't get an early Hydra, and you don't spam skills on minions, so why would you buy a Sunfire? If you're low health around Baron there is usually a mistake somewhere that lead to this situation that should be the focus over Sunfire preventing a clean escape over the Baron wall.

These "issues" are only there if people play as if they don't have a constant AoE item on. It's user error, not a problem with the item.

Gnart Even CloseSep 10, 20152 votes

So by buying an item, you should gimp yourself in the process? Why should buying this item cut off two incredibly important escaping spots? This just doesn't make sense to me. This item currently has a ton of tradeoffs making it undesirble a lot of the time. This is a solution to these problems. You could argue against the extra health and armor, but this items passive is still too much of a double edged sword instead of simply a tool to help tanks remain somewhat relevant damage-wise.

Also how would you go about calculating the damage into gold-efficiency? Would you use it from Bami's Cinder? And how would you factor in the fact that it scales with levels?

IcyPepperSep 10, 20153 votes

It's not just to keep tanks relevant damage-wise, it aids in split-pushing, clearing objectives, and invading jungle camps.

Tower aggro stops bothering tanks after awhile for the most part (one shot won't hurt as much as if you were a squishy), and by that time comes around you would be buying sunfire. Sunfire cape isn't an early-game item unless you're willing to deal with the consequences, and if you buy it later the consequences don't matter as much when you're a tank.

redniwediSSep 10, 20154 votes

No, you've gimped yourself by buying an item and playing as if you don't have that item. It's the same situation when someone buy's a BotRK and doesn't use the active, it's not the item's fault it's not being used correctly.

As for the damage I believe you have to add it into a character's damage per second to find something able to match it. It's not a calculation I'm interested in figuring out, so I was just curious if you had done that already.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20151 votes

I understand that you can play around it, but that removes certain options for you. You should not have to have less options because of an item. BoRK active helps you chase and kite and can also help you win close fights. By not using it, you lose access to some of the items power, but it does not cause things to aggro you when you do not want to be aggro'd. And BoRK is still more gold-efficient and gives way more DPS with its passive than Sunfire Cape does, while also having an incredibly strong active.

redniwediSSep 11, 20152 votes

Every build path removes options for you, it just so happens this build path changes things in a way you're not happy with. Going with one item over another will always do this, and it changes the way your champion is played. Depending on the item and the champion it can be a drastic change or a subtle one. Sunfire is just less subtle than many other items.

There are other options outside Sunfire Cape if you don't want to deal with the things tied to it. Dead Man's Plate is arguably better than it right now, so unless you want to get both you can just get that instead. Those of us who are willing to pay the price for Sunfire will continue to do so while not being bothered by the extra aggro.

Gnart Even CloseSep 13, 20151 votes

That's a very fair assessment, but it still does not change the fact that the item draws aggro in certain situations where it is undesirable. Would you still agree that this item would be better with a toggle even if you don't see a need for it?

OxBakerSep 11, 20153 votes

Was totally with you until you asked the passive to be switched to a toggle. No thanks. Enough to manage without that.

R2D20Sep 10, 20152 votes

pls no toggle

Lt CuddlesSep 10, 20152 votes

Could make it only activate in combat, much like item 3725 , then it would function cleaner.

Gnart Even CloseSep 10, 20152 votes

This would definitely help a lot. I still would rather see a toggle though, as it is extremely annoying if the enemy uses your Immolate to aggro tower onto you when you were otherwise leaving them alone. There are other very specific circumstances as well (like if you're being chased and try to escape over Baron pit) where I would prefer a toggle.

NightNinja13Sep 10, 20152 votes

Sunfire with the extra damage can be devastating for prolonged fights. I think its efficient on champs that can stick to targets well. On a champ that gets kited it may not be as effective.

Only Play DariusSep 10, 20152 votes

No thanks, I don't want a repeat of release Cinderhulk.

Gnart Even CloseSep 10, 20152 votes

i don't see how this would be like release Cinderhulk. The item would definitely be stronger than it is now, but it would not be broken af, redefining the entire meta around one single item. The problem with Cinderhulk is the % bonus HP and stacking damage, not having decent gold-efficieny and being able to deal less damage.

Lt CuddlesSep 11, 20151 votes

item 3748

Jungle Lux GodSep 11, 20152 votes

I think it is definitely intended for Sunfire Cape to not be very cost-efficient, not to mention that players are definitely willing to pay a little bit less for that passive. A couple of seasons ago Sunfire Cape was mandatory (along with Spirit Visage) in the top lane when its stats were unchanged from that iteration because its active was better than it was now.

Just adding a toggle would make this item so much better. It lets you freeze a lane, push down turrets easier without taking aggro (although turrets are so weak now that it probably doesn't matter), walk by neutral monsters without taking aggro, along with other stuff.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20151 votes

Even if the stats weren't changed, I would still love to see the passive become a toggle. The extra stats wouldn't be ridiculous either (only 5 armor and 50 health). Also, Dead Man's plate did not exist as an item with more health and extra movement speed. All of the armor/health items have stronger identities making them stronger in certain circumstances... (except Ohmwrecker...)

The Yetii RiderSep 11, 20152 votes

Here's the issue: Sunfire Cape is a bruiser item, not a tank item. Tanks will get Cinderhulk, because tanks don't lane well. Tanks are primarily junglers, the only tanks we actually see in lane these days are Maokai and Malphite sometimes. Everyone else is either jungling, in which case Cinderhulk is better, or they are a bruiser.

And bruisers do not need a good Sunfire Cape. Sunfire Cape is balanced around how easy it is for bruisers to abuse, that's why all the tanks were relieved when Riot gave them their own version.

Sunfire Cape has to be kept bad because if it becomes good enough to rush bruisers will get a huge mid game boost that they don't need.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20151 votes

There's nothing wrong with it being good. The other similar items have clear strengths over it: Dead Man's Plate gives movement speed and Randuin's Omen gives crit damage reduction, attack speed slow, and active (nobody builds Ohmwrecker QQ). By building Sunfire Cape instead of the other items, you will have drawbacks, and those items will still be more gold-efficient (If you factor in the attack speed slow on Randuin's and crit damage reduction).

The Yetii RiderSep 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's nothing wrong with it being good. The other similar items have clear strengths over it: Dead Man's Plate gives movement speed and Randuin's Omen gives crit damage reduction, attack speed slow, and active (nobody builds Ohmwrecker QQ). By building Sunfire Cape instead of the other items, you will have drawbacks, and those items will still be more gold-efficient (If you factor in the attack speed slow on Randuin's and crit damage reduction).

Gold efficiency isn't the issue you need to consider when thinking about tank items on a bruiser. Slot efficiency is. When a bruiser builds a tank item, that is the only tank item he is likely to get. Therefore, the more stats and offensive abilities it gives for a single item, the more likely the bruiser is to build it. Right now, bruisers build Dead Man's Plate because it is incredibly slot efficient, giving you more health than Black Cleaver or Righteous Glory and more armor than Randuin's or Sunfire. If Sunfire had competitive slot efficiency with Dead Man's Plate, then it would be the go to item (because bruisers are less likely to be kited than tanks are). Then bruiser damage across the board would rise back up with this consistent power spike in every team fight.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

When a bruiser builds a tank item, that is the only tank item he is likely to get.

Lmao, do you know what a bruiser is? The basically build Clack Cleaver and Titanic Hydra, then go full tank (unless they build Triforce and then go full tank). Sunfire Cape is a defensive item that helps low damage tanks and bruisers to do extra damage. This item has definitive trade-offs compared to the other Armor/Health items.

SEKAISep 11, 20152 votes

So in other words, you want tanks and bruisers to be actually strong and competitive?

Not gonna happen, too bad it's LoL we're talking about.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20151 votes

Lol, you know hhow this game works

SackletSep 11, 20152 votes

same

XakinosSep 11, 20152 votes

Since they made thornmail....less awesome forget all this toggle and stats nonsense. Give it an active, for the next 10 seconds every third time you take damage you get an additional tick of sunfire aura damage with a neat little fiery animations.

Given that they just nerfed the stats on most of the armor items I think it's unlikely they'll buff the stats of an armor item even though sunfire's efficiency has always been pretty dreadful.

Gnart Even CloseSep 13, 20151 votes

The point you made about the armor items is an excellent point. Perhaps they could just buff the health to 500 and lower the cost a bit? An active version could be interesting, but it would change the core identity of the item a bit.

AL000Sep 11, 20151 votes

i think it needs armor, health and dota buff but dont need toggle... passive is kinda weak and short... i would like to see it burn more and more powerful if they are nearby to it... like stack by 6% to maximum 60% bonus in 10 seconds.

dpm and fh usually must to buy... so leave sunfire cape kinda rusty...

buff armor by 5 > 50 armor buff health by 50 > 500 hp buff passive as 6% per 1 sec to maximum 60% as magic nearby... and 500 range (adc range) aka between 43 to 69 magic dps at level 18 ( and can damage towers too)

honestly, dont know why 25 + per level... not 30 or whatever... i think its kinda weak...

Gnart Even CloseSep 13, 20151 votes

The range and damage would be kind of ridiculous... The range should stay melee, as that is how the item is balanced. If the DPS was too strong early, everyone would rush this item and the strategic diversity would be eliminated. The stacking mechanism could be pretty cool too.

Ser GarlandSep 11, 20151 votes

Great Aoe item on Sticking characters like Shyvana or Jarvan.

PunkkeeSep 11, 20151 votes

why does the toggle have gold efficiency?

Cosmic WarperSep 11, 20151 votes

I think they weakened it over time because it became way too strong as a split pushing and dueling item for tanks without waveclear (looking at you SHEN). I feel like if they wanted to nerf it's dueling and farming effectiveness they could have made it do more damage based on the amount of targets around you (dealing half damage to minions) instead, so that in teamfights its effectiveness wouldn't change. At this point it's a really meh item now that items like Dead man's plate and titanic hydra exist. It needs some sort of overhaul or modernization.

Gnart Even CloseSep 11, 20151 votes

I wouldn't be surprised if they did rework the item or temporarily remove it and then reintroduce it. And fyi DMP and TH are wicked strong rn.

Sniper 0Sep 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KGE8j9yN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-09-11T07:29:24.181+0000)

I think they weakened it over time because it became way too strong as a split pushing and dueling item for tanks without waveclear (looking at you SHEN). I feel like if they wanted to nerf it's dueling and farming effectiveness they could have made it do more damage based on the amount of targets around you (dealing half damage to minions) instead, so that in teamfights its effectiveness wouldn't change. At this point it's a really meh item now that items like Dead man's plate and titanic hydra exist. It needs some sort of overhaul or modernization.

It might be meh but I still build it on champs like zac if I'm top laning. The damage passive is still pretty valuable. If I'm jungling zac I have cinderhulk. ;)