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@ Meddler: Is Riot going to address the collateral damage caused by their change to Ginsoo's?(Jhin)

Azadethe··28 votes·3,063 views

Okay. I've been talking about Ginsoo's for awhile now. Namely on Kayle . The Ginsoo's Change boosted her auto attack by nearly 160 damage when charged.

But someone today brought up a VERY legitimate point on another champ: Jhin

Jhin's passive acts on the added damage from all sources.

These include:

Janna 's Barrier Infernal Drakes Baron Nashor and now item 3124

But here's the kicker: All the other sources of damage take PRECEDENCE before item 3124 In other words, item 3124 Doesn't just add up to 24% AD to Jhin. It multiplies all these other sources too, including his passive.

A No Drake game, with no Baron, with this build: item 3124 item 3094 item 3031 item 3508 item 3009 item 3072 starts off at around 720 AD on Jhin.

On 6 Stacks of item 3124 it's 1322 AD. That's an 83.61% Increase in AD. That's NOT 24%.

The way this works:

The Base AD/Attack Speed/Crit on this build = 374 AD/70% AS/70% Crit.

That results in 1 +.44 +28 + 17.5 = 1.895X his AD, or 708.9 AD (+ a little bit from runes).

However, Ginsoo's adds another 48% attack speed, 24% AD. The 48% Attack speed adds another 19.2% AD.

I can't get the math to work personally, meaning this may be an undisclosed bug, but somehow this adds MASSIVE amounts of AD per tick on item 3124 , and after 6 ticks it raises that 709+ clear over 1322 AD, without any other buffs.

People who have Infernal Drakes and Janna's are getting to OVER 2000 AD.

I tried the build out, and Jhin's Q Grenades are ending their chains doing over 2400 damage. His NON 4th Shots are hitting up around 1700, and the 4th shots are hitting over 2800 damage, at just 1300 AD.

And it's not like an Orbing Jhin is a slow auto attacker. 2 Shots,,,,,, ANYONE is dead.

This is broken as heck for an item meant for On hit effects, if which this build doesn't even implement other than the Ginsoo's itself.

So...... when and how do you plan on balancing it?

Ginsoo's is now the strongest item in the game. It puts item 3078 to Shame.

72 Comments

Tèrminus17 votes

For what it's worth, Jhin still has the lowest ADC winrate on op.gg, and it's not much higher on any other website I can think of to check.

So for as broken as people make this sound, it doesn't seem to actually be doing much.

Azadethe5 votes

That's because the most common builds haven't picked this up yet. It's a sleeper build. Most people are still building meta items on Jhin. They also haven't adjusted from the skill based Jhin play to the auto attack play. Give it a couple weeks. 2000 AD Jhin will be the norm, and it will crit.

Tèrminus7 votes

{quoted}

That's because the most common builds haven't picked this up yet. It's a sleeper build. Most people are still building meta items on Jhin. They also haven't adjusted from the skill based Jhin play to the auto attack play. Give it a couple weeks. 2000 AD Jhin will be the norm, and it will crit.

http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc/item

Azadethe6 votes

I've seen it. You'll also see the 3 item builds are pulling a 60% win rate when they are including Ginsoo's. Stats are too early on this to actually be representative of the change by the way. Back in Season 7 when Jhin was pulling 1200 AD games and spiked to 58%, it took awhile for the stats to catch up. Then they nerfed him.

Now he's pulling 1300 BY HIMSELF. He's pulling 2000 with the right drakes/support.

Keep in mind there are a ton of low skill Jhin players who don't know how to properly use him. They rarely ever even get close to a team fight or throw Grenades to do damage. They sit back and ult, and get caught with their pants down. People who play him are pulling 54% - 60%.

Sp33d Zer02 votes

{quoted}

I've seen it. You'll also see the 3 item builds are pulling a 60% win rate when they are including Ginsoo's.

Except for the 56% win rate one, the 2 59% ones, and the 58% one.

Azadethe3 votes

Splitting hairs pfft.

Hibeki1 votes

Or you know it could be because Jhin's strongest stage of the game is at mid game

Azadethe3 votes

Actually try it or Hush. The item is boosting Jhins damage by 100% from what it was 2 weeks ago.

Fear the Kayn2 votes

{quoted}

Actually try it or Hush. The item is boosting Jhins damage by 100% from what it was 2 weeks ago.

So why is his winrate not insane then?

Literally 6 percent lower than Warwick btw

ironman btw

Azadethe2 votes

His win rate is low because he has a 13.14% PICK RATE. Not everyone who plays a champ is competent or builds a meta. People who are building Ginsoo's are averaging a 60% win rate. Those who have over 150 games are pushing 54%, and these statistics are still polluted by pre-knowledge statistics.

You do realize that Zoe never once crossed 50% win rate yet was consistently battered as "broken" because of her "one shots" until Riot Nerfed and then reshuffled her kit. Win Rate does NOT correlate with champ performance.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

That's because people who are building guinsoo are building after he already has a BUNCH of stats from other places.

Go rush Guinsoo and see how bad it is without as much "total" stats boosting it.

Azadethe1 votes

Wrong. After just item 1038 item 3124 item 3094 item 3031 he currently has 900 AD. At 3 1/3 items.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Yes. AFTER he has two other MAJOR ITEMS boosting his stats.

Sex With Annie2 votes

those items cost 11,600 including swifties.

Volphi1 votes

[deleted]

Azadethe1 votes

I didn't think so either but that didn't stop 3 waves of nerfs and a huge uproar. And she did less damage than Jhin currently is...... with much longer gaps between the hits.

Hibeki1 votes

Zoe was broken because she was designed by he-who-shall-not-be-named

Also Janna Kaisa Nami All have a very high pick rate (as much as 20%) and have like 55% wr. Whats your argument there?

Azadethe1 votes

My argument on Nami and Janna is that their kits don't solo close out a game. They require good teammates to handle their buffs correctly to carry. They may pull high win rates, but it's because of in tandemn synergies, not individual performance.

Kaisa I believe got overbuffed. However, she even has limitations: She can't fight near minions, and minions block skill shotting. That means there's a legitimate strategy in the game for combating her.

There's no strategy vs bouncing grenades and aoe minion penetrating skill shots and targetted 800 range auto attacks. The only thing remotely balanced about Jhin is his reload, at which point he can spend time grenading and W between shots.

P.S. A designer doesn't make a champ broken. What made people cry was her oppressive laning phase. Past Laning phase she basically didn't have a presence unless the game got to 35+ minutes. Almost all complainers were mid laners.

Hibeki1 votes

No both nami and Janna kits are extremely impactful with minimal effort. Janna ult and shields can change fights and same with nami.

They have incredible effectiveness with little input needed, combined with a horribly abused starting item. Thats why they are played so much.

Also 800 range autos? Really?

Also not much of a presence ? She could literally 1 shot with Q + E with lost chapter

Azadethe1 votes

You're really not worth replying to if you can't understand the basic nuance of the conversation.

Heals =/= super impactful if you can't follow it up with damage, mobility, hitting .87 second delayed abilities, or slow moving R's. Nami pulls less than 50% on players who haven't mastered her. Janna often loses purely because buffing an adc with her barrier is not enough when she gets singled out and killed, and because her tornadoes are highly ineffective at hitting, unless you are literally almost point blank for an instant cast.

Nami takes more effort than Janna, and is HIGHLY prone to AP mage supports and generally anyone who can dodge a bubble. Akali +MasterYi can have a 100% kill rate on a Nami if they know how to use their kits. because it's literally a case of chicken: If Yi waits out Nami's Q, he can auto attack her to death and if she tries to bubble, he can Alpha. There is no winning that exchange unless Yi is a nub and throws an Early Alpha when Nami's Q is still up. Then she can Bubble where he's going to land to get away..... unless he has a item 3139 . Akali can literally perma beat Nami because she and Yasuo can skill while on the fall down from a knockup. Akali can R quicker than a Nami Bubble can land, and if you try to initiate the combo with Nami's R, Akali can literally R to you before a Bubble lands.

Nami can't carry a bad adc to victory 70% of the time either. She can't substitute in to bring about wave clear and damage.

Janna's only real strength is in a 1v1, and that's giving her too much credit. Long Ult cooldown, and once used they can come right back in to kill her. I've literally got a Janna to 20% HP on Evelynn , only to get knocked back by her ult, only to Ult my Eve right back in and finish her off. A LOT of champs can do that.

You're losing it if you think Zoe could 1 shot on a Lost Chapter. Maybe 2 auto attacks, E, and Q with Ignite. look at your damage charts in a game where you 'think' you saw this. I have literally NEVER seen it in any videos I've watched or played. Maybe on a champ already at 60% Hp.

Hibeki1 votes

Janna's real strenght is in a 1v1

Thats it, you have no idea what youre talking about.

Abyss Gear Syxx1 votes

{quoted}

His win rate is low because he has a 13.14% PICK RATE. Not everyone who plays a champ is competent or builds a meta. People who are building Ginsoo's are averaging a 60% win rate. Those who have over 150 games are pushing 54%, and these statistics are still polluted by pre-knowledge statistics.

You do realize that Zoe never once crossed 50% win rate yet was consistently battered as "broken" because of her "one shots" until Riot Nerfed and then reshuffled her kit. Win Rate does NOT correlate with champ performance.

Zoe had a basically 150% ban rate. This means that she was banned EVERY game and sometimes twice. No not every game but almost every game. It was a very low chance for her to not to be banned. She was very strong, she has true damage and low cool downs and the same mechanics as the old leblanc but cut in half.

And yes this happened from Bronze to Master. She was better to have on your team than not. So if she wasn't banned she was 100% pick rate.

Azadethe1 votes

Not actually true. Her ban rate was 26%, and portions of that was because she was pulling a 43% win rate, even at plat +. Part of that was because as player skill went up the ladder, Zoe got a longer farming stage of the game. This meant before champion competitions began, she was 3-4 items, at which point she posed too much of a risk to games where players played cautiously. In games where lane snowballs occurred earlier, she statted horribly because she really did need the 4 items to become dangerous, and most games ended before that happened.

In other words, there was pressure to ban her on both ends: Players who didn't want her on their team because of her high skill curve and late game entrance into game pressure when games may end earlier, and ban pressure by those who didn't want to risk laning her or knew they planned to play long games.

But her results were clear: Almost never got above 13 kills, most times far less. Highest death rate of all mids/supports. Only rank 22 in Mid damage/rank 17 in Support damage. Low CS counts. 43% win rate for all her pre nerf/shuffling existence. Win rate plummeting in all game periods between 20 and 35 minutes. (Meaning pre 20 her win rates spiked because of rage quits, and post 35 min she regained traction as her damage spiked; most games where people were playing her out, she was losing hard).

Hibeki2 votes

Congratulations, you bought an item that in 6 autos you probably should have killed 1 or 2 people anyway.

Thats the problem. You buy it for the meme but in reality at late game jhins gonna be 1-2 shotting people anyway. So when it takes 6 autos to ramp up you should have pretty much won the fight by then

Azadethe1 votes

No. By 2 shots, he's at 990 from 720 AD. By 6 he's at 1300 At the first 2 shots he's doing 1700+ By 6th shot he's doing 2800, and his Q is bouncing for larger than Crit damage on most champs, coming in at 2400 damage per grenade bounce. He literally can do over 10k in 1 grenade cast.

stone the blacks1 votes

http://na.op.gg/champion/jhin/statistics/adc pro play jhin builds rageblade 5/6 games all of which are over 50% WR and up to over a 60% WR

OverpoweredSoap2 votes

{quoted}

For what it's worth, Jhin still has the lowest ADC winrate on op.gg, and it's not much higher on any other website I can think of to check.

So for as broken as people make this sound, it doesn't seem to actually be doing much.

I think its less overpowered and just more frustrating to play against, because the amount of damage is incredibly surprising.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

Jhin isn't the lowest winrate on OP.gg? Idk what you're looking at tbh.

DuskDaUmbreon10 votes

I think they'll get to it. They're just not sure how to.

I mean, nobody expected Jhin to become OP with it. He's the champion least likely to get on-hit stuff ever. It's basically inconceivable that Jhin would be broken with it. Hell, it doesn't even make sense now.

Azadethe3 votes

Imo it should have been hotfixed back to the old Ginsoo's until fixed. It also hyper boosted Kayle. It's not a rework that was ever cost balanced OR strength balanced. It's suddenly leaped to the strongest on hit item in the game as well, because of the 5+.1 AP and 5+.1 AD mod they added which is FAR stronger than the old 15 magic damage. Yet somehow it lost 600g off its cost, only to gain 300g of that back? It is the strongest item in the game now, and no AP item even compares to it.

SithesisLord3 votes

It also hyper boosted Kayle

A 3% winrate boost on a champion mostly only played as a counterpick, by mains and/or OTPs or to cheese with a Yi jungle with a build that doesn´t even have Rageblade in it.

I´d say she's still fine.

Azadethe3 votes

It boosted her average per auto attack damage by 61 per hit, and her autos can hit 2-3 times per auto, depending on how the opposing team is standing to each target.

With the addition of Presence of Mind, that's basically a HUGE boost. And she's up to 57% among people who play her.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Except Kayle doesn't take Presence of Mind nor would want to for the same reason Kayle doesn't take Ultimate Hat.

GudLunchHavFries4 votes

Dude they just discussed the math behind it and said they are working on a fix less than a week ago. Do you even keep up with the red responses?

read the Red Post Collections on Surrenderat20.net regularly and you won't miss stuff like this.

"Is riot going to address it"

They already have

dont spread misinformation by implying they havent yet.

Azadethe2 votes

You can claim they've talked about it in a Red Post all you want, but I certainly don't see one, and you didn't provide a link. Even if they did, they haven't done an iota to it and this is actually a champion breaking change. It would have taken 15 minutes to upload a patch to revert the change until they've figured it out.

There are Red Posts about these champs, but no Jhin, or expressly about Ginsoo's other than the quick patch note statement : 3000 was too cheap.

Graves Khazix Irelia Zoe Lux

GudLunchHavFries1 votes

I thought I wouldn't have to link it because anybody with basic commin fucking sense would know already, but because your a special one who doesnt follow the rest posts for whatever reason, here it is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/87ol1d/a_thought_on_jhin_and_rageblade/dwg6cdd/?context=2

Don't claim they didn't discuss jhin when they did, right here.

And don't use the "I didn't know" excuse, not knowing is just another form of stupidity. You would know if you just did your bloody research.

People shit on riot for stuff they have already addressed all the damn time and it makes me sick.

Riot said it somewhere, and you don't even have to do any digging, its all on surrender at 20. Just read every new update they have on the site by checking back every day. Its not hard. I have been checking on surrenderat20 for a couple years now, it baffles me why others dont do the same.

It won't take too much time.

Using time to stay educated on the game is better then spouting misinformation and looking like a fucking bafoon.

Azadethe1 votes

Um I hate to say it but : Reddit is not a Red Post, nor is it on Surrender at 20. You posted a Reddit.

Fear the Kayn3 votes

I don't have a problem with Jhin's interaction with Guinsoos. His winrate is currently SUB 50%

S U B FIFTY PERCENT

You know the rapper 50 cent? Add the leters 'per' before the 'cent' part and his winrate is below that.

....and you want to nerf him?

He's balanced af, leave him alone holy shit. I have no problem with an ADC that has the attack speed of a slug doing half my health in 1 shot, because in that time a Vayne would have already fired about 4 bolts at me doing 75% of my HP.

Azadethe2 votes

Yes. 2000 AD is balanced on 2.25 Crit multiplier and 100% increased damage on 4th bullets. He is 1 Qing entire teams right now.

Fear the Kayn4 votes

{quoted}

Yes. 2000 AD is balanced on 2.25 Crit multiplier and 100% increased damage on 4th bullets. He is 1 Qing entire teams right now.

Logically if he's 1 Qing entire teams his winrate should be near 70%.

Fear the Kayn6 votes

{quoted}

Yes. 2000 AD is balanced on 2.25 Crit multiplier and 100% increased damage on 4th bullets. He is 1 Qing entire teams right now.

2000 AD IS balanced when you consider how low his attack speed is. When a 'normal' ADC has 2-ish attack speed (or higher) and 700 AD, they can probably get off 2.5 attacks in the time it takes Jhin to fire one round. 2.5 * 700 = 1750 heyyyyy look at that we're almost at 2k. AND Jhin has a timeframe where he literally does zero damage for a short period.

He's balanced as hell, just shit on him once he has to reload. There's his ultimate counterplay, something which cannot be said for other hypercarries. I would MUCH rather play against Jhin with 2k AD than a full build Vayne

Salamencę2 votes

Phantom dancer on jhin LUL

Jokes aside though, guinsoos is stupid broken on him

SpiritOfOdysseus2 votes

To be quite frank I think this Item could be a healthy addition to champions who would LOVE to build it, but cannot because of inherent issues. (Jax MasterYi Olaf Trundle ). You'll have the lassies cry about wasted AP ratios, but lets be real here... The sheer amount of increases would greatly overwhelm the measly amount of AP "wasted".

IFFFFF it worked that way on them, and not Jhin. I've always loved the Idea of a Berserker. A tough nut of a melee champ that just rampages through with high attack speed.

But fantasies are just that... we cant have niche, almost viable off-builds like in season 1-3 because it's too hard for a ten or hundred million $$ company to balance

Jhin right now Is unhealthy. A ranged bastard with CC and a silly 4 gimmick which is outweighed by a decent passive should never have that much pure AD.

TheLegendaddy2 votes

For as broken as that sounds on Jhin, he still doesn't hold a candle to the other hypercarries

Ralik0982 votes

ADCs abusing items not meant for them yet again? Who would have guessed.

Sex With Annie2 votes

it takes jhin all game to build this item. if he has it before 20 minutes in a game then either you or him did something terribly wrong. This item gives jhin a relevant lategame while not being an automatic lane winner early game. Im pretty sure that was the initial intent of the item in the first place. The only good time to build it is even you have atleast 50% crit and even then you're missing out on defensive items that you WILL need due to being so immobile.

SnowFall1 votes

Zed

Abyss Gear Syxx1 votes

I can't believe someone is talking about this with that patch rolled out. The current item 3124 is actually only 300 gold cheaper than it was before [and 100 gold cheaper than IE] with the only difference being they took out blasting wand from it's build. I can understand before the patch when it was 600 gold cheaper, but overall I am not impressed by Guinsoo's on Jihn. I've seen it, and I get the theory on paper, but very few make it work out in reality.

Jihn already suffers from an excruciatingly weak early game. He isn't stronger than Lucian or Draven in trades. He isn't a hyper carry like Vayne, Kaisa, Twitch or Kog. The reason you aren't seeing his winrate go up is because He doesn't crit with Guinsoos. He may have 300 AD But his limited fire rate, attack range, durability, the fact that if you used guinsoos you'd probably not be using anything but autos when he is supposed to play around his ult...

During his ult, Guinsoos doesn't mean a thing. On any auto shot except his 4th It's not exactly great either and you can get dove before you even wind it up. Jihn has almost no escapes. Better have Janna or Lulu around otherwise I am not feeling the situation. Even before getting guinsoos good luck getting the gold when for the 1875 gold Jihn will be spending, his enemies will be able to outpace and probably burst him down. MF Twitch Tristana, Cait, Varus all do the auto attack game better without the "So amazing big numbers!" act.

Azadethe1 votes

1 ) The item gives the largest AD/AP ratio in the game after its rework. On Jhin it's giving 4 times the item gold efficiency of any other item in the game.

  1. He is far stronger than Lucian or Draven in capturing 1 hit kills.

  2. His Q can hyper carry.

  3. His 4th hit ALWAYS crits and hit first 2 items on a Ginsoo's build are item 3031 item 3094 aka 50% Crit. Aka the other attacks crit too.

  4. Ult is garbage. stop relying on it....

  5. His attack range is 700 with item 3094 Dunno where you get this idea he has no range.

  6. I can 1 shot every single minion at this point in the game with Jhin. Dunno how you think he's going to fall behind. Even when he hits reloads, Grenades can 100% kill 5 minions.

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