After 8.7 Why would anyone take any Runes but Precision/Sorcery?

Azadethe··41 votes·6,028 views

Okay. I'm honestly scared about 2-3 changes that are coming up in runes:

  1. Precision Runes:

Presence of Mind (P2) Effect changed to: "Takedowns restore 20% of your maximum mana and refund 10% of your Ultimate's cooldown."

Sorcery Runes

Manaflow Band (S2) Effect changed to: "Hitting an enemy champion with an ability permanently increases your maximum mana by 25, up to 250 mana. After reaching 250 bonus mana, restore 1% of your missing mana every 5 seconds Cooldown: 15 seconds"

In other words..... WE'RE BACK TO INFINITE MANA.

Not only that, Manaflow is going to charge Ryze item 3003 item 3042

This change means..... we're going to see adcs with infinite mana again, meaning not only will they have sustained auto attack damage, but they will never run out of mana either.


And then think about Ultimate Hat, and this Rune compilation:

Precision:

Press the Attack/Fleet Footwork Presence of Mind Legend: Alacrity Cut Down/Coup Des Gras

Sorcery: Ultimate Hat Gathering Storm

...... think about that on a champ like Kayle

Suppose Kayle is just Tier 1 Ult, But had 40% CDR and gets Ultimate hat charged. That's a 45 second cooldown to begin with, and with Presence of Mind, it's going to refund enough mana to cast his skills 6-7 more times, AND put her Ult cooldown down to 40.5 seconds.

FURTHERMORE: Nothing about the skill reads out to mean this isn't a SPAMMABLE ult cooldown reduction. If Kayle/anyone with her wins a group fight..... that's 61.10% Ult cooldown reduction TO AN ENTIRE TEAM.

This rune as written is BEYOND BROKEN.

What it boils down to: If you lose a team fight, Presence of Mind is going to ensure that when you ress, your opponent's ults are ALL going to be up again, while yours aren't. This means...... if Kayle Tryndamere Yorick Warwick Sejuani Riven Twitch MasterYi ...... etc.... champs with REALLY POWERFUL ULTS take this rune........ they literally will be lopsiding games by virtue of one rune, and some of them literally have no counterplay other than hoping their ult is NOT up.


Bottom Line: These 3 runes in their optional combinations with Presence of Mind are going to create snowballs that are unmitigateable, and faster than ever before. The rune at the VERY LEAST needs to be changed from TAKEDOWN to KILLS, and if you really insist on it, IT NEEDS A COOLDOWN.

I mean..... I play Nami and I already get her waves down to 45 seconds. Imagine if I had Nami waves at 20 seconds..... I have a 61% Kill participation rate as is. Takedowns mean I would literally be able to spam waves faster than the other team can even RESS. It means Sona Soraka Janna all get strong ult spammage as well, because they get assists, just by virtue of existing.


What I find hilarious about this is: This is right after they screwed with item 3124 and added almost 300 damage to Kayle 's auto attacks because of how they changed the damage per hit to SCALE while also scaling AP and AD bonuses. Her ult is already a problem with CDR builds. Now it's going to be active every fight in ADDITION to that new Ginsoo's damage..... and Riot thinks 300g added back into Ginsoo's price is going to fix that imbalance in that champ. Rofl.

I'd love to see a Dev in the conversation. If this reaches live, it's going to ruin your game.

85 Comments

2Charmnot2Charm16 votes

It sucks that the new Presence of Mind ultimate refund won't work on Ahri/Jhin/Vel koz and other champs with similar ults.

Edit: Whoever downvoted me should learn to use the sandbox. Ults like the champs i listed do not go on cooldown till it's over, meanwhile we have champs like Nasus and annie that have their ults ON cooldown the second they pop it regardless of when the buff is over. It's inconsistent and should be changed.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

It shouldn't be changed, but it does suck for the ones it doesnt work on.

iV0lt4GE14 votes

They did it with the intention of nerfing Azir and Cassiopeia because they would abuse the mana sustain that PoM and Manaflow had, making them strong lane bullies. Think of it as, somebody poking you forever and ever without ever stopping, these changes makes sure that these two can't do that anymore.

EDIT: I know because, I play Azir a lot and that is how my lane phase it, I only back if im low on health or have a lot of gold.

Azadethe3 votes

Post isn't about Manaflow near as much as Presence of Mind.

And it's not like they did any better with Manaflow than anyone else, and this change is going to sustain those champs even more. Cass already builds item 3003 . This is going to give her 8 more AP, and 250 more mana, and going to recover 1% of mana per 5 sec. Much more powerful than free cast/refund.

I was just pointing out that Presence of Mind + Manaflow = perpetually maxed mana. on the revision. The new is better than the old on both.

Glory ln Death5 votes

Comment isn't about Manaflow at all - he's talking about how Azir and Cassiopeia abuse Presence of Mind.

C9 Squeeky 6 votes

Lux Hi

AirKingNeo4 votes

More like Kayle applying manaflow band every auto attack.

Al3x84 votes

Ok, see the presence of mind change.

And then REMIND YOURSELF OF MY STAR DRAGON

Auz the Ripper3 votes

The changes just shift the mana irrelevance. With current presence of mind and current manaflow band, you can spam freely until the moment laning phase ends. With the new changes it with be reversed and mana won’t matter late game and I’d say that’s a little fairer, because it’s pretty sucky to lane against a xerath who just won’t run out of mana.

CPU Lyrica1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAAXQuia,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-03-31T16:37:19.210+0000)

The changes just shift the mana irrelevance. With current presence of mind and current manaflow band, you can spam freely until the moment laning phase ends. With the new changes it with be reversed and mana won’t matter late game and I’d say that’s a little fairer, because it’s pretty sucky to lane against a xerath who just won’t run out of mana.

I've Been bringing xerath support to try it out (Cuz tbh can't be worst than brand support) and he feels like he's soo toxic to play against. never running out of mana, always far away and still hitting skillshots. its quite fun.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

Yeah, I’ve been taking it mid and it just feels kinda dirty to not have any real repercussions to spamming forever and have literally 0 interaction from the opponent.

Votable Jester1 votes

Haha I don't even run manaflow band on Xerath unless I don't think I'll have access to minions to proc my passive.

If you hit a high enough percentage of Qs, you'll kill them or force them back before you run oom even without manaflow band (so long as you can proc passive often). It's only really necessary if you're worried about the enemy zoning you off the wave.

leakinb2 votes

mana-hungry AP meta is coming

Azadethe4 votes

More worried about the Ult spam meta. Presence of mind is going to turn Ranked into URF. Winning teams are going to have perma ults up, meaning they will win even harder.

And champs like Evelynn who have very situational play won't be able to keep up, because they won't get enough takedowns to keep up with players like MasterYi who can actually exist in team fights.

Volphi2 votes

[deleted]

Azadethe4 votes

After WHAT nerfs?

Kayle was triple buffed.

Tryndamere was buffed.

Riven was buffed.

Yi was buffed...... dunno what nerfs you're talking about lol.

AirKingNeo2 votes

triple buffed

0 direct buffs.

Azadethe3 votes

Depends on what you consider a direct buff.

item 3124 was a pretty direct buff, since most Ginsoo's champs are not hybrid champs but rather single type builds. Kayle is the exception.

Presence of mind is indirect.

8.1 buffed Kayle's E cooldown by changing it from 16 sec cooldown at all ranks to 18-14 scaling.

And while we're at it:

Tryndamere: 8.3 Raised his AD growth, and increased the AD ratio on his spin.

Riven: 7.4 R Buff.

Master Yi:

8.3: Q Mana cost reduced by 20 at high tiers. Wuju Style True damage increased AND AD ratio bonus increased by 10%

No Nerfs.

Volphi1 votes

[deleted]

Azadethe2 votes

Are you really whining about an early game 10 second ability that aoe clears on a champ that gets bonus attack speed at level 1, when minion waves are 20 seconds apart?

The attack speed was adjusted from her 7.22 release. From an increase of 15% to only 10%. Still greater than what she had in season 7.

And yeah I do lol. Ultimate hat put her on near perma Ult in every possible engagement, and the new Ginsoo's hits most targets for 182 - 240 more damage per auto attack than the old Ginsoo's. Nothing to complain about? lmfao. Kayle is currently the #1 Top laner. 57% win rate among players who play her. Currently ranked # of all top laners in csing (even with Nasus, Yorick, Yasuo, Illaoi..... the massive freelo csers)

The Riven buff occurred in December. 4 Months ago.

Complain about what specifically? I'm a mechanical analyst.

VoraciousX2 votes

Honestly if Kayle kills one champion in a teamfight she's able to 1v5 anyways most likely, so I don't see much of a change with the rune setup you're mentioning on her. Other than her POSSIBLY being able to have her ult back in 61.2 seconds, or 48.96 seconds(since she only gets 20% CDR from that, because she's gonna need pretty much a full build of attack speed items to reach 2.5 attack speed). I feel like the manaflow band changes are nice tbh. It kinda gives us another option besides biscuit delivery(which I used in conjunction with future's market before they decided to go and screw over that possibility for me). Presence of Mind is not going to give people infinite ults. Even with Katarina who I've been using it on in the PBE(so good for her imo), you don't get your full ult back unless you've killed 2+ people and also have at least Cosmic Insight(which you'd need precision+inspiration to get). You could also get Ultimate Hat + Presence of Mind with Katarina and still need 15 seconds on your ult if you killed one person(tested myself).

Also if you get Nami waves down to 45 seconds with ultimate hat, then you'll get it down to 40.5 seconds with the new precision rune. It's -10%. So if it's double digits, it'll be minus x.y seconds(x being digit 1 and y being digit 2).

Azadethe1 votes

The key is that the ult gets up upon every single respawn of the team she or anyone else just killed. In other words, if you just killed a team at Baron, you can literally have your ult again if you just go to their base/turrets, and end game. There is going to be no agency to prevent a baron from ending the game, particularly if there is a Kayle or Tryndamere, because they can 3-4 hit turrets, and always have their ult up.

And, the Nami comment is about getting 5 assists, which exponentially remove cooldown by 61.2%

VoraciousX2 votes

{quoted}

The key is that the ult gets up upon every single respawn of the team she or anyone else just killed. In other words, if you just killed a team at Baron, you can literally have your ult again if you just go to their base/turrets, and end game. There is going to be no agency to prevent a baron from ending the game, particularly if there is a Kayle or Tryndamere, because they can 3-4 hit turrets, and always have their ult up.

And, the Nami comment is about getting 5 assists, which exponentially remove cooldown by 61.2%

If she got 5 assists, then the whole team was dead anyways. There's no situation where a Nami is going to ult two times in a teamfight.

As for Kayle/Trynda having their ults up every time they respawn, late game everyone's ults are already back up when they respawn, that won't change anything. Presence of Mind also requires you to kill people to get that lower CD, and 8-9 seconds isn't going to change that if their ults being back up when they die.

C9 Squeeky 2 votes

Why even need Ultimate Hat with that version of Presence of Mind (PoM)? and I thought the point of reworking PoM & Manaflow Band was because it was negating Mana Gating too much.

PoM going to be STUPIDLY BROKEN in ARAM.

PoM is keystone-strong.

C9 Squeeky 2 votes

Riot already gave some AP items CDR in previous AP item update item 3102 item 3157 item 3152 . 8.4 AP Itemization gave item 3003 users 20% CDR now, not to mention a buttload of mana. A lot of patches they seem to be raising CDs because of systemic changes like this and sometimes mana cost (Galio Q). Riot needs to let people learn how to manage their mana. Stop spamming every ability off CD. I don't want URF in my games.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Take dark havest + presence on everyone! Aram fun :"(

Meep Man2 votes

I wanna try the ultimate refund one on Karthus...

Azadethe1 votes

Karthus and Lux and Soraka are going to benefit the most, because of the Global presence/easy assists. Lux particularly is going to be an abomination, because she already has 2 ways to reduce her Ult Cooldowns. Now she will have 3.

Level 3 Lux has a base of 50 seconds, 30 seconds after base CDR. 22.5 Seconds if Ultimate Hat.

If she hits 3 people with her ult while killing one, and gets takedowns on those three, that's a reduction to 16.4 Seconds R Cooldown. And that's a REAL feasible outcome, and with Coup Des Gras, she's likely to be successful too.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Karthus and Lux and Soraka are going to benefit the most, because of the Global presence/easy assists. Lux particularly is going to be an abomination, because she already has 2 ways to reduce her Ult Cooldowns. Now she will have 3.

Level 3 Lux has a base of 50 seconds, 30 seconds after base CDR. 22.5 Seconds if Ultimate Hat.

If she hits 3 people with her ult while killing one, and gets takedowns on those three, that's a reduction to 16.4 Seconds R Cooldown. And that's a REAL feasible outcome, and with Coup Des Gras, she's likely to be successful too.

Too bad that Lux still has many other problems. Mainly her poor waveclear, weak shield, and slow travel time on her Q.

Azadethe1 votes

Poor waveclear? weak shield? wtf are you even talking about?

After level 3, and regular itemization, her E one hit wave clears. Even before then.... you just time for it to hit when mobs are low enough to auto attack them to death, and you can hold her E open friggin 5 secs to wait for that.....

Her shield is one of the strongest in the game! Second hit gives 200% shield value... I've gotten it up to something like a 800 damage shield..... regularly....

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

After level 3, and regular itemization, her E one hit wave clears. Even before then.... you just time for it to hit when mobs are low enough to auto attack them to death, and you can hold her E open friggin 5 secs to wait for that.....

That's the very early game, after that her E can't even one-shot casters. You have to use Minion Dematerializer and possibly Luden's Echo, and even then you will have issues waveclearing after the very early game.

{quoted}

Her shield is one of the strongest in the game! Second hit gives 200% shield value... I've gotten it up to something like a 800 damage shield..... regularly....

That's assuming that you max it, AND hit both parts

Fear the Kayn2 votes

I think the domination tree needs to be buffed a little bit. The secondary runes just don't feel like they have enough of an impact in game IMO.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

I’d disagree for about half of domination’s secondary runes. All the stacking runes are pretty strong, zombie ward broke pro play, and sudden impact is still really good. The others are pretty mediocre though.

Votable Jester1 votes

Hey hey hey, ingenious hunter is incredibly fun. Take that and cosmic insight with Glacial Augment, build twin shadows (and GLP if you want), and have fun with super easy catches.

I've been doing that on Zilean, and it's the most fun I've had outside of TanKarma.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

Ingenious hunter is one of the stacking rune

Votable Jester1 votes

Oops, for some reason I misread your post lol.

KoKoboto2 votes

Don't die then lmao

The JigSAW2 votes

All they had to do was just make presence of mind restore 10% max mana on kill or assist and 20% for manaflow band and there wouldn't be a problem.

FCJAAAAGOOOO2 votes

Yeah imagine how powerful Kat and Yi are with ult CDR OMEGALUL

Attticus Finch2 votes

My spontaneous conclusion is that this is part of Riot's attempt to put APCs into the bot lane.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

Because I'm not running precision/sorcery on Soraka. No, thank you.

(Didn't actually read the thread)

Azadethe4 votes

And why wouldn't you? Sorcery main.... Precision secondary...... what's wrong with that lol? You get to ult over twice as often.

ZackTheWaffleMan2 votes

I thought precision/sorcery implied precision main, sorcery secondary.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

SpaghettiVase1 votes

Honestly why would anyone need to buy a lost chapter item again after these changes. That's literally the biggest question that's like what 3000+ gold that you don't need to spend anymore. Presence of Mind is literally a free lost chapter with these changes. Why wouldn't I take it now? with the changes to Stopwatch and them jumbling the inspiration tree around so you can't take biscuits and future market together anymore, why not just run Precision secondary now for that fucking 65% CD on my ultimate?

There was already changes last PBE cycle to turn PoM into basically mage triumph. It was going to be the same I think in the mana spent stuff but they were giving it bonus XP on takedowns. Whether that was stupid or broken or whatever it was that caused Riot to pull it, how is a FREE 1100G ITEM ANY BETTER ON A BASIC RUNE. This doesn't fix any problems with PoM, Mana flow band or anything.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly why would anyone need to buy a lost chapter item again after these changes. That's literally the biggest question that's like what 3000+ gold that you don't need to spend anymore. Presence of Mind is literally a free lost chapter with these changes.

Because the Lost Chapter items have pretty good stats and passives, and you still need the mana for early game?

Vekkna1 votes

That's exactly what I'm thinking. I've been rushing Chapter > Luden's since forever, but I switched to Lich Bane after the Luden's update because the MS is too important.

Since I run Dom/Precision, Mana has been a little sparse with Lich, though, and these rune changes basically remove that problem altogether.

130x1 votes

Runes reforged just sucks completely. They need to revert.

3TWarrior1 votes

which would revert them to the masteries that started the snowball meta XD

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