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Why is Riot even experimenting with this stupid Archangel's Nerf?

Azadethe··80 votes·25,947 views

I'm serious.item 3003 for YEARS has been a 80 AP item with 3% of Mana > AP.

Now that it's 50 AP, they want to raise its price 300+200 gold AND reduce it to 1% of Mana > AP?

That makes it a friggin MAX 80 AP item, even when charged up. Down from 190 > 150ish.

WTF?

How does that even make sense at all?

Here's some math to Illustrate why this is a big wow:

It was 2 patches ago, and It replaced item 3165

item 3165 +item 3003 USED TO BE:

400 + 1000 Mana (1400 Mana) 20% CDR (all on Morellonomicon) 170-190 AP on AA, 100 AP on Morellonomicon (270-290 AP total)

2700G > 3000G > 3100G > 3200G on item 3003

Enemy Takedown = 20% Max Mana recovered (Lost to a rune mages can't normally use) on item 3165 2400g > 2900 G > 3000g.

Total Gold:

5400G > 5900G > 6000g > 6200G (net 800G increase in cost since Season 6)

The New results:

item 3003 + item 3165 1400 Mana (Same) 20% CDR (Same) 50 + ~30 AP + 80 AP = 160 AP ( 110-130 LESS AP) 300 HP (New)

In other words it loses 110 -130 AP to gain 300 HP, for an increase in the COST by 200-800G.

Keep in mind what else this means:

Less AP gain from item 3089 No actual benefit from buying item 3027 anymore Diminished returns from building item 3110

No other item in the game has had a nerf that removes so much utility and actually INCREASED the price.

127 Comments

princeblumpkin74 votes

My understanding is that this nerf only applies to Archangels, but not to Seraphs. This means that you get less AP from the item until you have it fully charged, where it then returns to its normal power. This is a nerf designed to make it not as strong of a rush item, which I'm 100% ok with. It's clearly meant to be the scaling item, but it's more than good enough as a rush item as well.

Azadethe4 votes

All past changes to item 3003 have carried over to item 3040 . I wouldn't count on it.

TryMucinex11 votes

It's been typed by a Riot member that item 3040 hasn't been nerfed. Just item 3003.

RocketRelm2 votes

Could I get a link on that? I believe it cause that's actually reasonable (giving archangels a point where it's not objectively better than the other items), but I want to see the proof.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8bby7e/410_pbe_update_more_tentative_balance_changes/dx5w88n/?st=jfuk3mpn&sh=4165fc0b

Here ya go.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

My understanding is that this nerf only applies to Archangels, but not to Seraphs. This means that you get less AP from the item until you have it fully charged, where it then returns to its normal power. This is a nerf designed to make it not as strong of a rush item, which I'm 100% ok with. It's clearly meant to be the scaling item, but it's more than good enough as a rush item as well.

umm that make it even MORE of a "rush item" because you not NEED to get it to 750 mana for it to be useful?

princeblumpkin4 votes

No. You get Tear for the mana that eventually scales into a ton of AP when you turn it into Seraphs. That's why old Archangels champs would just get tear and then sit on it until it was mostly stacked and then upgrade. But now, Archangels gives enough AP that there's no reason to not rush the whole thing first item, and this causes it to push out items like GLP and Ludens that are supposed to be the quicker, lower scaling options. Before the changes, almost no one rushed Archangels because doing so left you without CDR for far too long, but that's no longer a concern. Something needs to give, and Riot is choosing its strength as a rush item. Seems like a decent place to target given everything the item does.

RiotRiotRepertoir89 votes

This is correct.

Lùmen11 votes

Thanks for confirming the clarification, I'm truly relieved now

woodvsmurph6 votes

So... when is item 3087 getting this kind of treatment or crit in general? Damage it gives on proc scales up to current level at 100% crit, is 1/3 of that with only 30% crit.???

or

When are we getting a item 3060 that makes a minion nigh impregnable (like 95% dmg reduction) to physical damage? Of course it wouldn't be stackable on the same minion as banner though. But seriously, mages already have less reliable waveclear from safety than adc's at 2.5+ items in most cases.

Malix Farwin4 votes

{quoted}

This is correct.

Any plans for

item 3030 and item 3907 . they are just dead items atm.

SlashStriker4 votes

So according to PBE you gain 10 Ability Power per 1000 Mana? How much mana do you guys expect a champion to have? Players suppose to feel rewarded for stacking mana but with this nerf it will feel like no reward for getting mana items

I usually don't finish Archangle Staff until tier is fully stacked at least on Ryze. So I would reduce the mana from 650 to 550 and maybe reduce the mana per stack from 8 to 4 but keep the 3% mana into ability power

Luden cost 3300 gold and does 100 + 10% AP magic damage. 10% AP is pretty weak lategame scaling and has very slow recharge rate per spellcast. I would increase it from 10% AP to 20% AP or maybe even 30% AP scaling and double the recharge rate per spellcast (get stacks faster) to make it more appeal for the purchasers and maybe reduce the goldcost a little bit

Sp33d Zer02 votes

According to the PBE, the UNFINISHED VERSION OF ARCHANGELS STAFF is weaker than it is on live and the CURRENT VERSION OF THE UPGRADED ARCHANGELS STAFF, AKA SERAPHS EMBRACE is the exact same.

By the time you get to that late game scaling, which it is meant to exist for, it is no different from how it is now.

Azadethe2 votes

That's still 16 minutes of the game with a hyper AP nerf to an item about 7-8 Champs use as their core AP potential while they charge it. That's what it takes MINIMUM to charge it, and by then, it might as well be a perma nerf in most cases, because at 16 minutes, most of the game is decided.

Champs like these are going to all need buffs on their low level skill tiers to compensate for the loss:

Anivia R damage will be garbage. Lux Will not have a viable item to ensure combos are kill possible early game. Nami Will heavily lose Heal potential as well as % Heal scaling on Ebb and Flow. Ryze Will not have enough Mana scaling to actually ever get into a game. Sona Is going to hit significant heals much later, Drastically nerfing her already extremely weak early game, as well as her damage scaling.

There are others, but these 5 really have no other options for high scaling/efficiency play.

Zed genius14 votes

Broken items get nerfed, that's how this game works

Step Sis Lux21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:43:59.954+0000)

Broken items get nerfed, that's how this game works

They nerfed duskblade and buffed duskblade users, so maybe now buff archangel users?

Zed genius7 votes

every ap mage is an archangel user right now, but unlike duskblade which is basically ad assassin's only option to rush mages just get this instead of luden's or even GLP which 3 are supposed to be an option on which one to get. Now you basically get archangel's by default

Step Sis Lux8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:47:47.938+0000)

every ap mage is an archangel user right now, but unlike duskblade which is basically ad assassin's only option to rush mages just get this instead of luden's or even GLP which 3 are supposed to be an option on which one to get. Now you basically get archangel's by default

There are still champions that works better with ludens Ahri Lux Annie Lissandra VelkozAzir Zoe

Zed genius8 votes

Zoe Azir and annie don't even really go this build path so they won't get either, Lissandra,Lux and Vel'koz can get it if they opt for it. Well ahri is not really a mage she is more of an assassin so the burst from ludens is good for her I guess

Step Sis Lux1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:54:01.381+0000)

Zoe Azir and annie don't even really go this build path so they won't get either, Lissandra,Lux and Vel'koz can get it if they opt for it. Well ahri is not really a mage she is more of an assassin so the burst from ludens is good for her I guess

Idk how about azir cuz i saw him only like twice after ap item reowrks, but ludens is core for zoe and annie, on velkoz i dont think u need so much mana, and on lux/liss if u go tear u gonna have terrible early game

Zed genius1 votes

ur not really taking it for the mana tho, you get it for the shield and the insane amounts of ap it gives you compared to other items

Step Sis Lux1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:59:02.207+0000)

ur not really taking it for the mana tho, you get it for the shield and the insane amounts of ap it gives you compared to other items

thats why i think they should nerf shield instead of ap scaling

RocketRelm3 votes

They already nerfed the shield, as a note.

Step Sis Lux2 votes

{quoted}

They already nerfed the shield, as a note.

i know thats why i think this item is fine, but if they hve to nerf i would rather see shield nerf than ap

SwiftKitten885 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:59:02.207+0000)

ur not really taking it for the mana tho, you get it for the shield and the insane amounts of ap it gives you compared to other items

... wut?

not taking it for the mana? why don't you go ahead and read the "awe" passive one more time.. and read it FULLY...

item 3003 awe: grants ability power equal to 3% of max mana and #REFUNDS 25% OF MANA SPENT

YES WE TAKE IT FOR THE DAMN MANA

Kivolan3 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed duskblade and buffed duskblade users, so maybe now buff archangel users?

God I hope so. Immobile mid laners have been gradually falling to the bottom of the barrel the last few patches. Most are barely at 50%.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed duskblade and buffed duskblade users, so maybe now buff archangel users?

You must be on drugs. Riot doesn't help mages

Azadethe9 votes

Archangel was NEVER broken. In fact pre 2 patchs ago most players NEVER EVEN BOUGHT IT. It's been the same SINCE 2009!

Zed genius12 votes

it literally got changed with the ap items rework a couple of months ago and everyone is building it ever since wtf

SwiftKitten885 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:48:38.195+0000)

it literally got changed with the ap items rework a couple of months ago and everyone is building it ever since wtf

because ITS FUCKING REQUIRED!!! they took off the 20% mana recovery on kill/assist from item 3165 , they made item 3174 a "support" item like season 4 or 5

NOTHING ELSE GIVES THE MANA REGEN NECESSARY.

there IS no other option.

item 3802 effect goes away when you upgrade the item.

that like saying we need to nerf item 3675 because everyone who wants movement speed buys it...

Malix Farwin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=em0th6HU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-11T00:43:59.954+0000)

Broken items get nerfed, that's how this game works

Its not really broken its just everything else sucks. Broken implies that it gave some sort of insane power just by building when in reality it just made it somewhat competitive with AD items.

LordGeovanni3 votes

item 3031 item 3035 item 3071 item 3072 ????

Hibeki10 votes

The difference is archangels is so beyond busted that it does need nerfed this hard.

Highest ap item in the game

Highest max mana in the game

Buttloads of useful passives, AND 20% cdr in one item

with a shield to protect yourself.

Azadethe3 votes
  1. Highest AP by TEN ...... after charging it up and having other Mana items. Otherwise, item 3089 and item 3285 win hands down. item 3041 Also gives higher AP on most builds (145 AP). item 3907 ALSO gives more AP, AND MOVE SPEED AND is FAR Less restrictive than item 3003

The Charge up is the entire reason NO ONE BOUGHT IT FOR NINE YEARS.

  1. High Mana doesn't matter when you have ample sources of replenishment, and the entire PURPOSE of the additional mana, was the FACT item 3165 LOST IT (item 3003 +item 3165 gives the same exact Mana as it used to, and now a whopping 100 LESS AP, same CDR)

  2. Shield lasts 2 seconds and has a long cooldown and is ONLY to SELF TARGET. It's a TINY shield compared to item 3190

AlienPrimate1 votes

As someone who uses it in most of my games, I find the nerf to be justified. The raw mana alone on it is just insane when talking base stats. At full build, it gives me about 2.4k mana by itself. The second highest mana item excluding Muramana is only 500 mana. I will continue using Archangel's staff on Taric until they nerf the mana, in which case I will switch back to Manamune.

Azadethe2 votes

Mana doesn't win games. Damage/Heals does. Mana doesn't mean crap if you lose large sums of damage, especially with the new Manaflow and Presence of Mind.

AlienPrimate2 votes

I think you need to go look up Taric's kit. Mana is essentially a second health bar for him. His heal costs 100 mana and has a ~1 second cooldown. Take your favorite champ and imagine spamming their ult every second. Now think of the mana it would take to do so.

Death by Glamour7 votes

cause lcs

Mordepool6 votes

{quoted}

No other item in the game has had a nerf that removes so much utility and actually INCREASED the price.

I guess you weren't around for the Rylais gutting

Step Sis Lux3 votes

They probably wanna force ap miders to build hextech item cuz it was useless since ap items rework

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

From Phreak on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8bby7e/410_pbe_update_more_tentative_balance_changes/dx5w88n/?st=jfuk3mpn&sh=4165fc0b

So in 8.8 they looked at nerfing Archangel's before it turns into Seraph's in an attempt to sharpen the, "This is a scaling item," role.

They are making this change solely to Archangel's. Once it turns into Seraph's it regains the 3% mana to AP that Archangels is losing.

Ratpie3 votes

It just feels like Rito gives AD champs every counter and damage, and continually has AP champs bend over and take it.

Risen292 votes

They removed items that were too versatile, but failed to realize that people were just going to gravitate towards whatever else was the next most well rounded buy. Generally, if you have an item with lots of AP, CDR, and mana, most mages are going to default to it as the best bang for their buck. That's what the old Morello was.

Archangels gives you everything you want: Highest single AP item after rabadons, but the added benefit of 20% CDR, tons of mana and mana sustain, and a defensive shield.

It's just better than Ludens in every way. Ludens has lost it's identity after losing movement speed. Nobody ever really thinks this is superior for poking. Arch will give you more AP to offset the lack of burst from luden's passive. More mana. More AP as the game goes on and you get more mana items. More mana sustain for poking.

I also think they are making a huge mistake, nerfing the wrong aspect of archangel. They should reduce or remove the CDR, making Ludens the superior poke choice, and leaving Arch for what it always was: The late game scaling AP/mana option.

Nobody wants a low AP mana sustain item with CDR. That's too much like a support item we already have.

Now, the main reason people never used Arch before was the lack of CDR. If you just wanted high AP, you had other options. And you didn't need it for mana sustain with other options that also gave AP. But, things are different now. If you made it 10% people would probably still use it, but there would be a more clear choice available. But if you made it 0% CDR, its use would be more limited but still probably a viable option for people who want both high AP and mana sustain but are not necessarily looking to spam abilities as fast as possible.

EmpressOfBeauty2 votes

This actually upsets me, because Cassiopeia and many other mages spends about the first 15 or so minutes grinding the bonus mana for that item so that they can get that one power spike, and then they are back at just one item. And that isn't counting Archangel's not being upgraded to Seraph's Embrace. It is already so expensive to build, and there are enough Health+AP items already to build, like the Hextech Firebelt (or whatever it is), Rod of Ages, Liandry's Torment, and Rylai's Crystal Scepter...I need my mana + AP! And Seraph's Shield was nerfed too! Only 2 seconds? :( [cass-cry]

Azadethe3 votes

What aggravates me is.... there are MANY games where having high HP is a BAD thing. item 3036 and Cut Down just shred high HP champs. So do champs with % Max HP damage. This is indirectly going to buff those % damage champs, because they can shred even faster, simply because one of the options to mitigate % damage or Max HP comparison damage is going to be unfeasible to build.

What's worse is, the other non HP AP items all have utility and damage issues which make them fall behind in CDR scaling vs AD champs.

If you rush item 3102 or item 3157 for a specific purpose, your clear gets hurt, your damage takes a HUGE hit, and they don't really do anything but put a band-aid on the skills they're meant to be used vs (Zed can kill you even if you Zhonya his Ult, so it doesn't solve the problem) They put you behind 10% CDR vs most AD champs, because it's inexpensive for AD's to rush 20% CDR in the forms of item 3133 item 3057 item 3142 item 3071 item 3101 item 3147 , which have many combinations which give the CDR and more damage - earlier, cheaper.

So.... most mages all are going item 3151 (HP), item 3152 (HP), item 3165 (HP), item 3027 (HP), item 3116 (HP) as their core items. That means..... Lord Dominik's destroys them as well as tanks.

SpiritOfOdysseus2 votes

Ludens is such hot garbage now. "Lets give an early/mid game burst item absolutely no AP, while forcing to build lost chapter(so you can feel like shit when you upgrade to Ludens since you wont have any mana sustain at all)". Its just terrible itemizations in general

Miku Append2 votes

ADCs doing well? Better nerf mages!

FOR JUSTICE1 votes

off the top of my head I can imagine because of its synergy with its shield active plus the new manaflow rework, while still allowing you decent amounts of AP while still being a defensive buy.

Azadethe7 votes

Doesn't even TOUCH the loss of AP. It's losing 110 AP overall, in exchange for 2 AP from Manaflow band, and 20% CDR, for an INCREASE of 500 gold in cost. 80 AP = It won't be bought at ALL. The whole purpose of the Mana Charging on it was to balance its AP scaling. Now it's the worst gold efficient item for a mage in the GAME.

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