The Curious Case of Karma's Tether

SilverSquid··43 votes·5,968 views

Hi there, it's another thread from me. This time we are looking at Karma's tether; the weird parts about it, the missconceptions, the old tether version and design elements of the current one. Skip to any part that you find interesting (or the whole thread, if you don't care, lol).

MISSCONCEPTIONS

Let's start with the weirder things.

TETHER DEALS DAMAGE IN 0.66 INTERVALS No, it doesn't. The tether lasts for 2.0s. It deals its damage 3 times; upon forming and upon rooting - at the same time RW grants the heals - and once in between. With 0.66 intervals it would deal its damage 4 times; 0.00, 0.66, 1.33, 2.00. I think the missconception arose when people calculated the casting time of 0.5s into the duration and tried to make sense of it hitting 3 times. And then typed it into the wikia. And now everyone just believes it without checking <sigh>.

KARMAS CAN INSTANTLY HEAL FOR 20% This is not quite true. W does have a casttime of around 0.5s. In addition to requiring double the buttons pressed than normal abilities. It will also consume the mantra and NOT heal you, if the target leaves the area or dies within the casting animation (or you do, lol). IF the tether formed, however, the second heal will also go off, if the target dies. Just so you know.

KARMA HAS THE BEST ROOT IN THE GAME Erm, that depends on how you define "best". It is the slowest root in the game, taking ~2.5 seconds to apply, making it hit a lot later than even the sister ability from LeBlanc, who takes 1.5s + traveltime. It's also not even the longest root for the majority of the game. At lvl1, Karma can root for 1s (1.5s with Mantra). Lux and Morgana offer 2s. But even when leveling, Karma takes quite some time to outdo all others. Until lvl16, to be precise. This is the point she can put 4points in her Mantra for a potential +1.25s bonus root duration, finally beating Morgana by 0.25seconds, provided she didn't level W last.... which most Karmas do. But at that point standing next to an enemy as a squishy mage for 2.5s seems sometimes harder to pull off than hitting a skillshot. Bottom line is; while Karma's root sure is nothing to shrug off easily, it's imbedded in so many conditions, that it just fails at delivering what 3.25 seconds of root seem to promise.

OLD TETHER

The full values can still be found on the wiki under "Previous Abilities". The old spotlight is still on youtube.

COST: 65 - 115 // COOLDOWN: 15 - 10 MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 - 305 (+ 70% AP) MOVEMENT SPEED MODIFIER: 10 - 20% / 20-40% DURATION: 5s (anchor) / 3s(touch)

TOXIC SLOW The old tether was a weird ability. It was one of the most verstile and creative abilities that existed in the League back then. It could be used to speed up, slow, clear waves, trade... It was both offensive and defensive. And the values were quite.... broken? A point-and-click ability that could slow someone for 40% for 5 (!) whole seconds. With max CDR this would be on a 5.5s cooldown, so you could easily slow someone for 10seconds with no counterplay.... well, "getting out of range" would be the counterplay, but this is what the tether prevented in the first place. There is no way this ability would make it by today's design standards.

UNMATCHED CREATIVITY But it also did some funny things; it could be cast on wards or Jarvan's flag , allowing for some surprising damage (the damage only applied upon touching it, not if it was cast on you). So this was one of the fairest damage abilities, that had a lot of creativity to it and allowed for some suprising outplays, which counteracted the fact, that none of her other abilities had any mechanical skill attached to them. The teamplay potential was only matched by recent abilities, like Kalistas' ultimate, in that it became incredibly strong, if your ally and you would.... get each other ;). And last fun point; tethering a minion to get back to lane felt like casually walking your dog. At least to me.

WHAT ABOUT TWITCH? There was another easily forgotten interaction, that is very different to today; Karma's tether broke if the target went invisible. I assume this was done to prevent giving away the location of an ally Twitch, for example, or having a weird animation, if the the ENEMY twitch tried to stealth.

DESIGN PROBLEMS

STEALTH AND ALLY FUNCTIONS Let's stay with the "invisibility" idea for a while. Some people requested that New Karma's W should have an ally function too, because the current one is boring. I'd love to see this, but people usually don't consider the invisibility tether problem. You either break the tether, let the tether become invisible (to the enemies) or let it... reveal the tethered ally? All solutions seem kind of awkward and non-intuitive.

But let's talk about what the ability currently does!

GOOD THINGS Karma was reworked in a time where there was a huge shift in design towards counterplay. Abilities shouldn't only be engaging for the user, but also for the person used upon. At least some way of mitigating damage or effects made exchanges more dynamic and fair. Additionally, abilities were now meant to be not only thematically fitting, but should also interact with each other, either passively or actively (think Yasuo Q+E or Soraka Q+W, etc).

Karma's new W did both of these things; it introduced decent CC into the kit that could be worked around. Since Karma's slow was moved to Q, her W wouldn't prevent the counterplay to itself. Additionally the new W interacted with your shield in that you could ensure hitting W by using your E's movementspeed.... at the cost of losing your defensive cooldown. And finally, RQ offered a way of capitalizing on the new root, which wouldn't have had any syndergy on Old Karma.

BAD THINGS New W did a few weird things though. The bad kind of weird. It is a spell that rewards you for being up close, which makes very little sense on a squishy poke mage, which the rest of her kit tries to tell you. It not only confuses Karma on to what to buy, but also the enemy on where to stand. If you stand far away, you get easily poked, if you get close, you get easily rooted. Where are Karma's weakspots?

Adding to this confusion are the stats on RW. It's a pure missing%hp heal, scaling VERY well with defenses. However, with a delay of a little over 0.5s and the usually very squishy buildpath of Karma, this heal becomes missguidingly unreliable. Without any %health damage or true damage or sustained damage, Karma can't really afford to build tanky either, Especially since her base stats make her fall pretty quickly when CC'ed....

https://blog.sysomos.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/weight-loss-coffee.jpg

W makes for a really weird balance; it is really unreliable against champions with dashes or blinks, while being rather oppressive against immobile champions; having a built in speedup makes escaping from this ability feel really awkward. The counterplay part also falls a bit flat; escaping from a Karma tether doesn't feel great or rewarding, while hitting it doesn't feel good either. It's always this "should've happened anyways" feeling, since it requires very little skill from both parties and is mostly dependent on the setup.

In terms of design, this ability is also really.... boring. Especially compared to its predecessor. While the old W had a dozen of ways to be applied creatively and was mostly only limited by your imagination, this one just.... a one-way-street; E enables W which enables RQ. Ironically instead of representing the binding of souls, like it used to, it represents binding two abilities to a very simple combo, while being rather low impact by itself.

A short note on the changes of 5.10: In this patch Karma's tether lost its 60-300 +60%AP bonus damage for the increased root duration 0.5-1.25; this shifted the power of this spell from "for 2s" to "before and after 2s". This is one of the reasons, why the casting time on W suddenly feels so bad, because it's too unresponsive. It's not fast enough to make for a good bait-only spell, and the root takes for waaaay too long and is too unreliable. Or put enother way; You only feel the impact after cast time (0.5s), tether (2s) and root (1-2s). The bonus effect only becomes apparent after 3.5-4.5 seconds. Also leveling this ability at lvl 6 is very unimpressive. You used to get double the bonus damage at lvl6, and now you go from 0.5s bonus root to 0.75. Ugh. And lastly, this introduced the old problem; what the hell does Karma use the extra root for? If your mantra'd Q is the only thing in the kit that can use a root, why spend your mantra on the root?

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0e/Emptylord_Karma_Deadlock.png/revision/latest?cb=20140402142627

And a last note on the visual appartment; Karma's RW is problematic, because it doesn't visually provide enough clues. This was one of the reasons, why you could sneak in the enormous RW damage, because the tether doesn't look different enough and the damage was a DoT. The problem still stands today, though. The visuals of this should really be looked at. People should visually realize that they are about to get hit by a 3.25s root

FINAL NOTES

As you can see, there are quite a lot of problems in this spell. I know we can not expect any major changes on Karma in the upcoming mage update, but maybe some small changes are thinkable:

  • Reduce or remove the casttime of W
  • If the casttime stays, at least restore some CD on W and R if the ability is cancelled during the animation.
  • Reduce the missing%hp heal and add a flat amount.
  • Give it an ally function, at least in the RW version.
  • Make Karma's RW visually more distinct from W.

Other things on my wishlist, that I deem unrealistic tho:

  • Remove the weird bonus root or give Karma a reason in her kit to want to hit it.
  • Do something interesting with Karma's passive
  • Add something unique to her kit, like %slow resistance to her E.
  • Add a haste animation, when above a certain speed.


Anyways, thanks for reading. Add any thoughts that you like :)!

86 Comments

Tengrichan3 votes

And that's why old karma was better.

MargaretThatcher3 votes

I also would like to copy past something about the interview of karma rework to scarizard

Scarizard:

Old Karma had issues. What were they?

Karma's kit was in a weird place, but her ultimate was especially problematic. Her base abilities didn't feel impactful and only felt effective when supercharged by Mantra.

Serika Zero2 votes

this sounds like current Karma, kind of a lot.

SilverSquid2 votes

Old Karma had better W and R. New Karma has better Q and E.

If only they would combine them :C

Voluug131 votes

Funny enough:

Old Karma's abilities without mantra didnt look impactful but were pretty impactful, specially the game's Strongest Shield and The Best Team Haste.

Scarma's abilities without mantra look impactful but are 100% crap. Crap shield, mediocre poke, no waveclear, mediocre CC.

chipndip13 votes

I already made a thread on Karma needing a rework almost entirely due to her W being awful. It's a confusing spell that works against the champ using it. If you're a support, you R+E. If you're a solo-laner, you R+Q. When do you R+W for a stupid one-man root? It isn't even a stun...it's a root. AND it's incredibly delayed.

SociopathFriend2 votes

I personally love using R+W midlane whenever I need a good dose of healing. It's especially potent when an assassin is trying to dive you.

Karbuncle1 votes

Using R+E is way better than using R+W to save yourself wut?

Isn't countered by Ignite Gives a small speed buff to run away. A 170 base .8 ratio shield is way better than a 20% missing hp heal(Yes 20% there's no way an assassin isn't doing their combo in less than 2 seconds) on a champion you don't build hp on that you need to actually click on your target for and a lot of assassins have ways to not get clicked.

SilverSquid1 votes

@Chipndip1: I don't really get why you were downvoted so much ._. I mean, people are kind of sick of her getting reworked, because every touchup introduces more problems, than it solves... But I don't see anything that is strictly speaking wrong. I mean, I don't find her that overwhelming in lane, because she has a lot of damage, but conditional, and she isn't good at giving kills to the ADC or turning ganks either. But if she gets to poke she can zone 2v1 very often.

@SociopathFriend: The problem is, that assasins can also dodge out of your tether with their mobility, or engage you if you used your RQ to poke, leaving you rather defenseless. Sometimes it's great to abuse a Fizz that dives you and doesn't realize the tether lasts when he is on the pole, but it's usually just capitalizing on people's misstakes or missunderstandings of their kits. The higher you climb, the worse it works, especially with the casting time.

Voluug131 votes

Her shield has been reduced to crap too.

In fact her entire power is in RQ, and RQ alone.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

Nasus here I found a reason to want to hit a bonus root.

I abuse W whenever I play Karma and its one of her strongest abilities.

IxtaliKing1 votes

If he has tenacity you're in trouble though lol

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

No, E keeps him from escaping or getting too close. Mantra W keeps your health up. If your team fails to kill the rest of the enemy team by then after you've been feeding them kills all game, you've already got trouble.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Me mentioning tenacity was about mitigating the extra root in general, rendering it quite useless in locking him down depending on how much of it he has.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

Maybe after item 3111 gets buffed that would be true. It's kind of weak right now.

IxtaliKing3 votes

It's still strong with the tenacity you get from masteries, and/or Elixir of Iron. Edit: item 3111 was also buffed this patch.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

I'll see what happens the next time I go vs. a Nasus that isn't dumb.

IxtaliKing1 votes

As Karma you have a strong early, Nasus is weak early so 9/10 times you will make his life hell. If the Nasus is good though he will tower farm and counter build till eventually he becomes a God, and Karma falls off into oblivion.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

Early you are probably not laning vs. a Nasus.

Karma doesn't fall off if you build right.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I thought you were talking about Karma top, since that's a thing. And Karma definitely falls off, your build just determines how she falls off.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

Karma top just sounds like some one wanted to select not-support-Karma in queue. =d

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol Karma top is bruiser/tank Karma I guess, it's build revolves around RW. Building tanky for RW means RQ and RE will fall off, building AP and high Mpen for RQ, means RW and RE fall off etc...

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

People should be building c/d since her while kit gets stronger the more Rs you cast. -_-;

IxtaliKing2 votes

Cdr is an obvious and integral part in all her builds, completely goes without saying.

SilverSquid5 votes

I am sorry, but are you honestly trying to tell me how to play my main for 3+ years from the position of LITERALLY bronze5?

Yes, Nasus is immobile, that's why the root is good VS him. But if you are bullying him, there is no reason to go RW on him, if you just can W-RQ him for way more damage.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

Right, because I'm totally not messing around down here with decay, trying to figure out a problem in ranked that has been mostly unsolvable and getting experience in champions that I have yet to pick up.

You don't need slightly more damage when trying to take Nasus out of an endgame team fight.

Caezium3 votes

Uh... You can't Decay below gold.

I do think the duration is nice when empowered, but I think between Q slow and E speed up you can actually just not get hit before the tether goes off. The heal is what I like most about it.

Mantra Q isn't a "slight" damage increase. It's 260+175 (90% AP scaling) on just the initial hit at max rank, not counting the detonation that is 350+60% AP max rank. Although it is lvl 16 when the 175+350 extra dmg happens, because it scales with rank of Mantra.

Unstoppable Monk1 votes

Ladder reset due to inactivity for season 4 and 5, whatever.

I don't think Q slow is good enough to kite against Nasus's W if he's being buffed by something else. For poking in and sieges, sure use RQ all you want. Hard engages might not have the luxury of landing the Q 100% of the time.

SilverSquid3 votes

Why would I assume you mess around with decay if you are below gold, where there is no decay? Why would I assume after 6 years of playing this game, the only reason you are in bronze is, so you can train the new champions? With that much experience I would expect you to just need a single normal game or botgame to learn the mechanics of a champion and then practice it against people of your skilllevel. And with "ladder reset" do you mean... the thing that happens every season to everyone?

I didn't realize you were talking about teamfights. But even in teamfights; your 2s root is usually enough, and your RQ and RE just have WAY better teamfight potential. Wasting it for 1.25s of extra root on a single target is just a waste. Additional slow and damage or additional shield/MS is just so much better.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

You know what? You're right, CC is way less important than damage in this game. Especially against Nasus.

SilverSquid3 votes

It's not only about the damage, dude, there's also an AoE 50% slow and double the passive procs added. So your options are

  • Upgrading a 2s root to 3s
  • Shielding/speeding your whole team instead of one person
  • Huge damage nuke with an AoE 50% slow.

Nasus isn't alone, neither are you. Spells that affect multiple people are always superior in teamfights.

La Barbotte6 votes

you just made a good constructive post but the had to rank shame a guy in the comments, so what if hes bronze 5 that doesnt mean he cant play his champ, maybe hes lacking something else thats mean bud

SilverSquid8 votes

No, no, you are quite right. It was an ad hominem, even if I didn't use bad language. Just attacking a person's credentials instead of the argument is usually a big no-no for me.

But I really see no argument to be adressed. I argued about the design, and that there is no reason to have a bonus root in this kit, and he tells me of one specific situation for a specific champion in which a root might be useful, even though other mantras appear to be better in those situations.

He also keeps making up weird excuses for being in a low ELO. See, I wouldn't mind if he were physically handicapped and had to play with his tongue on a mousepad (A client of mine can only use his thumbs, so a mousepad and two buttons is all he can do. If he were to play LoL he would definetely never even dream of escaping bronze), but there is really no basis for a rational argument if the person argues with anecdotal evidence from bronze and low silver ELO perspective. Even if it's not his own fault for being there, his experiences just aren't useful. So building his arguments on them isn't useful either.

I really didn't try to be mean, I promise, and I will take the blame for making myself so unclear.

La Barbotte3 votes

i must admit i never expected anyone on league to ever apologize, im wet (nohomo)

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lmao

Ale non è male2 votes

{quoted}

KARMA HAS THE BEST ROOT IN THE GAME

Stopped reading here (not really, just got far less inspired to read beyond) No one in his right mind would think that karma root is any good. Karma W completely sucks and anyone that has played more than 3 games on karma knows that

Karma W sucks because it is by far the less convenient skill to use in ther kit, so you are never going to use empowered W. You are 95+ % of the time better using empowered Q or E even against immobile champs, unless those have completely screwed up in their movements/engage

The way it actually works is nonsense, because of various reasons To keep the root up on an enemy that is escaping, you got to follow them...except you don't want to be yourself in a position of danger on enemy frotnline as squishy mage that has long range poke as main source of damage The heal based on missing health on a squishy champ can make for some rare fancy plays in coordination with the shield, but more often than not you can't effectivelely use the healing because if the enemy is so close that you can cast the spell you are usually in BIG trouble and you got to perform an exceptional outplay to be even able to use that healing. And at that point you could rather be more beneficial in trying to damage the enemy or shield yourself. So, with all those things going against Karma being able to use effectively her W to be a useful skill, the final prize is to have what, a mere root? Are you kidding me

Karma need her normal W to have some healing, and her empowered W to stun instead of root (half root duration + a certain amount of time for every point put on Mantra) and give her some CD reduction/buff/enemy debuff on something, and in addition to that she need some tweaking on cast and tether range, because otherwise it is not worth the risk to try to use W or empowered W at all, unless the enemy has done huge misplay. Have Karma empowered W to stun, would mean that Karma support can have interesting trade-offs on what spell empower, because they can choose between damage/good CC/shielding allies, and would allow mid and top Karma to have a wider array of plays available that do not rely on enemy misplaying or underrating Karma abilities

IxtaliKing1 votes

Stopped reading here (not really, just got far less inspired to read beyond) No one in his right mind would think that karma root is any good. Karma W completely sucks and anyone that has played more than 3 games on karma knows that.

What you're explaining is in fact the whole point of this post, her tether sucks lol.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

No one in his right mind would think that karma root is any good. Karma W completely sucks and anyone that has played more than 3 games on karma knows that.

What you're explaining is in fact the whole point of this post, her tether sucks lol.

I know, I know ;D It is just that there is no missconception on Karma W being good, so I don't understand why bring it up as a premise for the thread

IxtaliKing1 votes

Oh you'd be surprised man, I've seen people on here swear blind that Karma's kit is the most amazing thing ever. They'd tell you her RW is the ultimate baiting skill which is completely flawless in all its intricacies. Granted a lot of the people who say these things either have a little or no games on Karma, their purpose in these threads it seems is simply to derail them.

Ale non è male1 votes

And the hilarious thing is that the main problem isn't even RW. RW is almost always not worthy above the other empowered spells, but is still far better than normal W which is...meh...I don't know how to properly define how bad it is

IxtaliKing1 votes

The normal W feels like it's main purpose is to set up RQ. As a support its like a soft peel/initiation tool, so yeah, meh.

Ale non è male1 votes

You don't need normal W to set up RQ, though, you can just use the normal enemy prediction skills on a skillshot that is blecked by minions And as support, normal W for inititation is godawful, 'cause the enemy can walk back and then rengage while you have W on CD to defend yourself and maybe pull out an outplay with the root, and for peel you would rely on you or your mates not dying or getting super low health during W tether - and you don't even have the healing to help you - so it is bad as well

IxtaliKing1 votes

On the 1st point the root on W is generally needed to set up the FULL RQ, both parts of the damage. Only a tard or an afk would be hit by both parts of the RQ lol. On the 2nd point I agree, it sucks xD.

SirShaggy2 votes

Very well thought out post! As a fellow Karma main I agree completely. Would love to see something interesting done with her kit, especially that boring snare.

Yorukin1 votes

Karma herself may be able to capitalize on the extended root (dem phat heals doe), but successfully landing it with an ally nearby is a huge boon to the fight. Think of it as being more geared towards support and bruiser builds, rather than mage. I agree with several other points though; it needs more visual clarity than "a slightly fatter tether", it could use some (not a lot) AP scaling on the heal, and it could stand to come out a touch faster.

As for ally cast, though... It sounds like a good foundation for an idea, but what would it do? Damaging enemies that touch the tether would feel stupid, as every other tether in the game only affects its target and (rarely) its caster. A speed boost would be unnecessary, as she already has that on her E. And a damage amplifier would be a nightmare to balance, hard to communicate with her team, and doesn't fit the thematics of the ability at all. You could argue for a heal, but she'd be giving up her two longest cooldowns to make that happen, it would waste time on her passive, and it feels redundant next to her E (which, incidentally, is one of the largest ally-targeted shields in the game).

Voluug133 votes

The problem is that Scarma's kit has no focus on nothing. Some abilities say mage, some say support, some say anti-assassin, some say bruiser-ish.

Its a whole mess and needs a new rework from Old Karma's kit, not this one.

ToBeSomebody1 votes

Remove the weird bonus root or give Karma a reason in her kit to want to hit it

I've found Karma's root to be useful for both offensive and defensive purposes. If you're on offense, it's a great way to initiate a fight where you know the enemy's CDs are down (or they aren't a threat) and hold them in place for a mantra'd Q. Defensively, the enemy is forced to either take the root or stop chasing to break the tether. I think utility-wise it's pretty balanced.

SilverSquid3 votes

I was talking about the **BONUS **root. You see, landing [W] allows hitting [RQ]. But landing [RW] only allows to hit [Q]. Landing only [W] also allows hitting [Q].

The bonus root on RW doesn't open up anything interesting in Karma's kit. If she is alone, there is literally nothing in her kit profiting from the increased root duration. This doesn't mean roots aren't useful. But the bonus root in Karma's kit isn't.

RIP K0BEBRYANT241 votes

I just find it hilarious that a supposedly 3+ year main of a champion would like her nerfed. LMFAO. You'd think the opposite. Also, Karma right now is winning every lane against Zed, Talon, Veigar and Swain. The only people she will have trouble with is Malzahar and Lux. Your W is brain dead easy. You can literally press W, and its a guaranteed stick for Talon, Zed, and Katarina. Its ineluctable.

SilverSquid2 votes

I just find it hilarious that a supposedly 3+ year main of a champion** would like her nerfed.**

Where did you read that I want her nerfed?

Your W is brain dead easy.

Exactly my point.

You can literally press W, and its a guaranteed stick for Talon, Zed, and Katarina. Its ineluctable.

You gave really bad examples. Kog, Jinx, Malz, Brand, Garen, Udyr, Shyvana, etc. are better examples, because they don't have blinks like Kata and Zed. However, most of those champions can tear you to shreds in the 2.5 seconds you cuddle with them in AA range. Your point stands tho, that the root is rather unavoidable to them.... which again, is something I'd like to critisize, because I don't like it, when an ability's worth is so strongly determined by the matchup and so little by skill.

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