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Why Karthus should be able to ult on "Untargetable" enemies (EDITED AND REUPLOADED)

D2Vincent··2 votes·1,100 views

I was thinking a while ago, and I'd like to discuss this with the rest of the boards.

I'm a Karthus main, and I've noticed that a few of the posts about karthus's ult involve doing either %Health damage, or ignoring Untargetability, Invulnerability, or both. Personally, I'd think he should only get to do dmg to the Untargetable enemies, and I have a logical reasoning for this.

to help illustrate my reasoning, I'm going to use the Trading card game of Magic: The Gathering to help explain.

There are 3 particular mechanics in MTG that can protect a creature or make it "Untargetable" by spells and other abilities. And they are:

Shroud (Cannot be targeted by ANY spells and abilities) Hexproof (Cannot be targeted by spells and abilities your opponents control) Protection (Cannot be targeted by anything from a particular source, like Color, Creature type, Card type) Example: Protection from Blue, Protection from Creatures, and Protection from Instants

However, these do NOT help them from any card that affects the entire BOARD like the card "Wrath of God", which is a sorcery that costs 2 colorless mana and 2 white mana, and destroys all creatures on the board. All creatures will be destroyed despite whether or not they have the above 3 mechanics BECAUSE OF THIS REASON:

While the above Protection mechanics prevent the creature to be targeted by spells and abilities, Wrath of God doesn't follow the Target rule. It's doesn't give a specific target and just blasts EVERYTHING, which goes around the Untargetability clause of Hexproof, Shroud, and Protection.

Using this knowledge, we can use this to apply logic between Karthus's Ult and anything that causes the user to be untargetable.

First off, let's look at Karthus's Ult:

R - Requiem: Karthus channels for 3 seconds and, upon completing the channel, deals magic damage to all enemy champions.

Karthus cannot move or deactivate after activating Requiem until channel ends or is interrupted.

Now the following chanps have abilities that make them "Untargetable" (but not Invulnerable):

Fizz - Playful/Trickster Kalista - Fate's Call Tahm Kench - Devour Ekko - Chronobreak Elise - Rappel Vladimir - Sanguine Pool Master Yi - Alpha Strike Zed - Death Mark Maoki - Twisted Advance Rek'Sai - Void Rush Shaco - Hallucinate

A champ with an ability that makes him untargetable means he cannot be TARGETED by Champion Abilities right? Well, I think Karthus's ult should follow the rules of Wrath of God and overrule the Untargetability clause. I'd really like to know what the Rioters think as well as anyone else :)

Also, I'd like to clarify that Untargetability and Invulnerability are 2 different things, Invulnerability is the inability to die due to damage to destruction, similar to the MTG Mechanic Indestructibility. Cards like Wrath of God cannot destroy cards that are Indestructible, and Karthus's R wouldn't work on champs that can make them Invulnerable (Kayle Ult, Kindred ult, Bard Ult, Lissandra Ult (on self), Zilean ult, as well as item 3026 and item 3157 )

6 Comments

Verxint3 votes

Well, when you want to talk about League of Legends mechanics and not Magic: The Gathering mechanics...

Karthus' ult targets all 5 members of the enemy team. It is not a tether. It is an auto-aim target spell, kind of similar to a Sona Q. Upon being cast it identifies the appropriate target(s) and activates the spell on them. If at some point during the cast time, the "target lock" is broken, the effect that would occur during that period of untargetability does not happen, because there is no target for it to happen on. Targetted spells require a target for their effect to work

The only spells that consist through untargetability are spells that have continuous effects after their cast completes, most commonly tethers and DoTs. Karthus' ult is neither of those, therefore it doesn't persist through untargetability. It is a targetted spell and requires a valid target to exist. The system you propose would make it something else, and it would have to be balanced around being that, meaning it would be nerfed in some other way, and you would create an entirely new mechanic.

Frankly, I'd rather have Karthus' ult be meaningful when it hits, but have a good portion of the cast with methods to avoid it, rather than it be weak and undodgeable.

Furthermore, what about things like spell shields (Sivir and Nocturne W), damage shields, out-of-game frames (Yi Alpha Strike), and all those other interactions? You're introducing a mechanic that doesn't really exist in the game, now it has to be decided how it interacts with everything else, which is considered okay, and what has to be balanced in response. This is a lot of work and turbulence for something that wasn't necessary in the first place.

In your example, Magic: The Gathering has clear mechanics governing those cards and interactions. Those protection cards specifically say you cannot be the target of abilities or spells, and Wrath of God specifically says "everything on the board" meaning it doesn't target. There are also dozens if not hundreds of instances of the same mechanic within other cards. Warth of God is not the only field-target spell. "Targetted X" is also a very specific mechanic in Magic.Wrath of God is also not the only loophole in "cannot be targetted" spells.

These mechanics are already established in the game and it is structured around them. What you are proposing is introducing a new set of mechanics and interactions for a change that frankly, won't make Karthus more interesting to play or play against. If anything, the fact that his ult has hard counters adds gameplay value, the Karthus player has to keep track of enemy cooldowns and know what the enemy champions can do. Turning his ultimate into a fire-and-forget guaranteed damage nuke would make him a less engaging champion.

The problem here is that MTG and LoL are so different on so many fundamental levels comparing them like this is just silly. This change wouldn't benefiet the game in any way.

Votable Jester1 votes

Sorry, but you are wrong about the targeting thing. Karthus's ult does act more like a Wrath of God than a Hex. If an enemy champion becomes untargetable during the cast time of Karthus's ult, it will still hit if they're back targetable when it ends. Targeted spells in MtG would fizzle if the targeted creature was flickered in response to the spell's cast.

Verxint1 votes

I didn't make this very clear now that I look at it. I think my proofreading went over poorly.

It is not a tether. It is an auto-aim target spell, kind of similar to a Sona Q. Upon being cast it identifies the appropriate target(s) and activates the spell on them. If at some point during the cast time, the "target lock" is broken, the effect that would occur during that period of untargetability does not happen, because there is no target for it to happen on.

A good case study for this is Syndra's ultimate, because it has a short delay and then involves multiple projectiles in succession. If you become untargetable for a portion of the ultimate, you avoid all spheres that would have hit you during that time period. If a sphere is still in midair when you leave untargetability, it will still impact and do damage. Karthus' ult is the same way - If during the moment of effect, the target is untargetable, there is no effect. Thing is, it's much easier to get the "post untargetable damage" with Karthus than almost any other champ because of the 3-second windup. But the mechanic is consistent for all spells.

Votable Jester2 votes

LoL isn't MtG. I play and enjoy both, but you can't apply the logic from one to the other. If you want to be able to hit those annoying Fizz players with your ult, you need to give an actual balance reason rather than basing it off an unrelated card game.

Schàdenfreude1 votes

Bro this isnt MTG so stop comparing it to league you idiot hahahaha

Quepha1 votes

"Wrath, everything is dead," "But muh hexproof," "No, EVERYTHING," is one of the most repeatedly annoying things that judges have to deal with every single week at FNM and feels extremely rules-lawyer-ey when explained because it literally comes down to the word "target" not appearing on the card.

Don't bring that crap to League.

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