@Riot now that Rylai's in nerfed, can we get Karthus's W reverted?

D2Vincent·Dec 6, 2016·91 votes·3,427 views

As far as I can tell, the major reason why Karthus's W was nerfed in the first place was because of the prevalence of Rylai's slow combination with the slow from the W. Now that it's not nearly as much as an issue, can we get the Slow on the W reverted back to what it once was?

The Nerf was that the slow from Karthus's W - Wall of Pain was reduced to last only a second before it decayed to half of that slow, and then it decayed even further.

Karthus is one of the VERY few champs who have almost no CC due to the fact that he's a Hypercarry. With Rylai's nerfed, I think it's time to give him back his slowing power.

59 Comments

MorgManBasherDec 7, 20169 votes

Or just buff him in general? :p He needs love and is in need of a mini rework. Maybe put a built in slow on Karthus Q's or something. Would be a pretty big buff, but I really honestly don't think even this would make him overpowered. Too many things crap all over karthus.

Leo1024Dec 7, 20161 votes

that or change his E, also make it so if minions are under 15% hp his autos will kill them because csing as karthus is a nightmare

Friendly RamDec 7, 20162 votes

Huh you just qq insuch a way so they crit.

MeltedWaterDec 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

that or change his E, also make it so if minions are under 15% hp his autos will kill them because csing as karthus is a nightmare

You play Karthus VERY wrong. You aren't supposed to CS with your autos, you're supposed to CS with your Q. You do realize it does more damage AND gives you mana back, right?

Chromatic EagleDec 7, 20161 votes

I always fail to last hit with that though. At least until a few levels.

ValeckseraiDec 7, 20163 votes

... his q doesn't give him mana back. Last hitting a unit in any way once you have a point in his e gives him mana back. While yes, his q deals more damage, is easier to time, has longer range, and is in all ways better than his autos, you should still try to cs with his auto attacks every now and then to save mana.

MelledoneusDec 7, 20167 votes

A built in slow on Karthus Q would make him the most broken champion in the game. I love Karthus, but god no.

MorgManBasherDec 7, 20162 votes

Explain how he'd be the "most broken champion" when he already does this with a rylais when he gets it? It would just him not needing the weakened, shitty item that was nerfed into the ground anymore. Would make him good early game though, but he'd still get destroyed by plenty of champs.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 7, 20161 votes

It would be like giving him a free item.

In the long run I think they should make his Q slow but obviously they'd need to nerf him elsewhere to make up for that. But it would allow them to balance him separately from Rylai's.

MelledoneusDec 7, 20163 votes

Karthus' level 1 is among the strongest in the game. Adding a slow to that would make him deadlier than a level 1 Olaf because you have to blow flash if he even lands 1 Q on you because the chain would never end.

HyperiönDec 7, 20162 votes

Karthus would be perfectly fine if it weren't for all the insane damage creep they introduced to the game, Not to mention the fact that almost every mid laner has some sort of CC, or mobility, and Karthus has neither of that.

Honestly, all he would need is like a 80% slow for 2 seconds on W.

MelledoneusDec 7, 20165 votes

To be fair they nerfed it for different reasons entirely. Also, Karthus' W does not apply Rylai's slow, so there isn't a strong correlation. However if they smoothed out the Q animation detonations to make them more consistent that'd be great.

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20164 votes

rylais still slows the same for karthus. it only lost some stats for him.

honestly, i dont fucking understand why keeping the item accessable for dot mages to permaslow is anywhere near desirable, when riot clearly made a stance on permaslows being toxic. it was the whole reason they reworked skarner, but apparantly that only applies to melee champions.

they should have removed the permaslow part, not the 1 second slow on aoe that nobody cares about. the stats could have stayed the same.

and instead of just buffing the slow on karthus w, they should just add the grounded debuff to it for enemies stuck inside the wall. to give him a chance to outplay mobile assassins.

Champion SkinDec 7, 20164 votes

The slow most certainly isn't the same for Karthus? Q single target 40% slow for 1.5 seconds ---> 20% slow for 1 second Q multiple targets 40% slow for 1 second ---> 20% slow for 1 second E slow is the same

(likely won't matter) R slow 40% slow for 1 second ----> 20% slow for 1 second

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrEy5Jfh,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-12-07T05:19:50.740+0000)

The slow most certainly isn't the same for Karthus? Q single target 40% slow for 1.5 seconds ---> 20% slow for 1 second Q multiple targets 40% slow for 1 second ---> 20% slow for 1 second E slow is the same

(likely won't matter) R slow 40% slow for 1 second ----> 20% slow for 1 second

the slow on the q was nerfed, but that is minor. he usually just used the repeated aoe slow on his e to stay in range and make hitting the q easier.

either way, keeping rylais as a permaslow item... i dont understand it. going by their own design standarts they should have went the opposite direction.

ScissorsNstuffDec 7, 20163 votes

karthus still doesn't need his W buffed

that wall is his strongest and most game warping ability. He doesn't need it changed everytime someone touches rylais and his rylais interaction wasn't exactly healthy in the first place

MorgManBasherDec 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

karthus still doesn't need his W buffed

that wall is his strongest and most game warping ability. He doesn't need it changed everytime someone touches rylais and his rylais interaction wasn't exactly healthy in the first place

Good joke.

Whens the last time you even seen a karthus?

ScissorsNstuffDec 7, 20163 votes

the last time his W was too strong is when

ImmortalBloodCYDec 7, 20161 votes

I saw one in ARAM.

I never saw them in Summoners Rift.

They are a rare breed of pokemon.

ValeckseraiDec 7, 20163 votes

lol wut. As a Karthus main, that is completely wrong. His wall is a lot stronger than people give it credit for, but it is nowhere near as strong an ability as his passive or ultimate.

ScissorsNstuffDec 7, 20162 votes

his ultimate is his weakest ability, a 1 dimensional damage threat.

His passive is dangerous because it allows him to reactivate his W. They are iconic but at least his ult is no where close. You could argue that the passive is.

As a not-karthus main I speak from the receiving end. His W is the only ability I'm typically concerned with on any given champ. All other abilities are nothing more than damage. But his W is a (or was) a massive anti-engage/anti-disengage debuff that could pretty much decide which team had more stats. Reverting the nerfs as a kneejerk reaction to a rylais change that isn't necessarily even a net nerf would be stupid

It Hertz When IPDec 7, 20162 votes

Bear in mind that OP is asking for a revert to the slow changes... the MR reduction on it is still the same as always.

ScissorsNstuffDec 7, 20161 votes

changing the color alone would be 3000% too much

http://i.imgur.com/6GyUmGt.jpg

ValeckseraiDec 7, 20163 votes

Yes, it only damages people, but it is a targeted global ultimate as well, it can kill people that just barely got away that no other abilities on the team can reach, help you snowball in lane by getting kills and assists from side lanes without having to give up farm from roaming, soften up an entire enemy team to give your team a huge advantage in health before a team-fight. It is definately not his strongest ability, but it is nowhere near the weakest. And if you honestly believe that his passive is only good for a recast of his w (which he could and should have already done when he was alive since its an instant cast), then you REALLY don't know that much about Karth. His passive is what allows him to build full damage and still dive into team-fights head first to maximize his damage potential. Even if he gets blown up, instantly because he had no resistances, he still gets seven seconds to do whatever the hell he wants to. For seven seconds, all of the abilities, mana, cooldowns, and time spent killing Karthus were just wasted, and they now he has an uninteruptable ult as well. If I had to rank his abilites from strongest to weakest I'd say Passive, q, r, w, e. His w is still a good anti engage or disengage like you said, but that isn't going to win him any fights. It is very good for preventing them or forcing them, but it simply doesn't offer enough to rank any higher for me personally.

MrWasjigDec 7, 20163 votes

Revert a nerf? Are you mad!? Karthus has had his time in the spotlight, and Riot would rather other champions get a chance to shine.....wait.....

JoseraphDec 7, 20163 votes

You should Leesin to what you're saying

Rıots Bad ClientDec 7, 20162 votes

I would really like If karthus dealt the bonus damage on his Q when they are in his E regardless if they were stacked.

Spaceman5pffDec 7, 20163 votes

Jesus that would be such an overkill buff

Papa AndreiDec 8, 20161 votes

Ehh, kinda, it means he would be more risky and rewarding playstyle that doubled with his lategame hypercarry mentality. He can't go melee range into many enemies lately without just getting nuked to hell (Juggernauts, assassins, even adc's) So he would have to build quite tanky with damage and slows to stay on top of a target to do that sorta damage

Spaceman5pffDec 8, 20161 votes

His death passive.

That is all.

Automated RivenDec 8, 20161 votes

There is a reason the term spawn karthus exists. And it cause of all the champs party is cares the least about getting nuked to help in a headlight.

DengedenDec 7, 20162 votes

It was before that. His wall was nerfed because it was too punishing for a single skillshot.

xScarfyDec 7, 20162 votes

I think they should also take a look at the mana cost of his W... I don't understand how 100 mana costs at all levels for a simple slow is justified, as I don't think it's such a strong ability to require such a high mana cost.

Meep ManDec 7, 20162 votes

For the record, he was actually nerfed because he could use DFT so well (additional damage on his R and made his single target Qs hit very hard individually).

However, he might need looking at post-nerfs. We shall see.

Robert SmithDec 7, 20162 votes

The only nerf is the single target Q damage since the E procs AoE damage and still applies the 20% slow. What really affects him is the AP and health nerf since he is too squishy and his abilities are hard to land damage with

dunkeroniDec 7, 20162 votes

Slows haven't stacked for a long time now.

10TicklerDec 7, 20162 votes

Well, and a lot of Karthus' recent-er changes have really hurt his game.

The size indicator on the cast of his Q has made them FAR easier to dodge. The Slow decay on his W? Same thing. It's great to call him a hypercarry, but unless you're playing against an ACTUAL ROCK, with the prevalence of MS in items, laning with Karthus is to know pain, because you get easily out-traded.

Heck, one small change that'd be nice to see would be if CDR over 20% also decreased cast times by like..5%

invisiblecat1Dec 7, 20162 votes

Karthus' W is best compareable to Veigar's E Walk through the wall and you are punished Of course you are only slowed with the W, and the E is like impossible to avoid since it encloses you and is a stun His W is just a weak spell So is his E since he has to be within close range and he is squishy Q damage is easy to dodge Ult has a counter item and like 1/2 the champions can avoid it

CalabokDec 7, 20161 votes

if he gets buffed then Brand should be also.

IcyPepperDec 7, 201630 votes

If oranges get a thick peel then apples should too.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 7, 20166 votes

I will eat the thickest oranges without peel if brand gets buffed and shove 4 more up my ass.

IcyPepperDec 7, 20165 votes

Not sure if I find this imagery disturbing or fascinating.

Probably both.

Nah.

Definitely both.

OneSmoothDudeDec 7, 20168 votes

The Rylai's and Liandry's changes are pretty big buffs for Brand.

So...

MelledoneusDec 7, 20164 votes

If Oranges make you K then bananas should too.

IcyPepperDec 7, 20167 votes

Bananas contain enough K as is.

MelledoneusDec 7, 20162 votes

But I ate a banana after falling off a 10 story building onto a cactus then subsequently getting hit by a delivery truck that propelled me into an electric fence that broke and had me land in a yard with a vicious angry dog and I was not k.

IcyPepperDec 7, 20162 votes

Having K does not make you k.