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Katarina is toxic

Estrogen Rider··15 votes·2,951 views

Before anybody says "lol CC her" keep in mind that I think her ult is balanced. Yes, BALANCED.

The problem isn't her ult. Rather, the problem is the 3 basic abilities that she has. They have zero cast times, no resource cost, and the cooldowns are disgustingly short. People say that she does not have kill pressure pre-6, but I beg to differ because she does. She can spam QEW with impunity due to no mana cost, and she can tower dive you and get back out because of the reset. It's really no different from fighting Akali or Fizz, and you know how toxic those champions are. At least Akali and Fizz are gated by energy and mana.

And as for "lol CC her", what that basically means is that if you're fighting her, and the skill you have with the CC is an important lockdown/damage/escape skill, then that means you're stuck using your other 2/3 basic skills until she uses her ult. And by that time, she may kill you before she even has the luxury to ult you. This means that fighting Kat is like as if she disabled one of your abilities, in this case, the one with the crucial CC, which you'll have to use only when she ults.

On a side note, I think champions that do not use mana or energy are toxic in general? Why? Because they can spam skills left and right to their heart's content and never ever worry about running out of mana or energy. And their build paths are far superior too, since they don't ever have to worry about itemizing mana. Most mid-laners have to rush a chalice and spend a big chunk of gold buying mana items causing you to fall behind in damage. Kat doesn't.

24 Comments

12tales8 votes

On a side note, I think champions that do not use mana or energy are toxic in general? Why? Because they can spam skills left and right to their heart's content and never ever worry about running out of mana or energy.

Mana gating is only one way to restrict a champion's play patterns. Take Riven or Yasuo as examples - they're both fairly squishy and lack any sort of sustain. They can only mitigate damage once every 10 seconds or so using their E/Passive, and if you manage to land harass on them when their shield is down, it'll stick. If Riven misuses her shield or if Yasuo uses his Q or E in situations where you can land harass, you can punish them for it. Basically, laning against them is defined by your interaction with and control over their health bar.

Now take another AD assassin that is gated by mana - Pantheon. Pantheon in lane is going to spam Qs at your face until he's OOM. If you have enough armor, you win. If you don't, you die. Basically, laning against him is defined by how he chooses to manage his mana, while you're just a bystander with no real control over what happens to you.

Does that actually sound more interesting or interactive? If someone is gated by CD and health management, you'll have windows of opportunity to attack their primary resource directly, and how well they do in the lane will be primarily based on how well you played around their champion. Someone gated by mana management has their laning defined by a resource that you have no direct control over - if that's accompanied by abilities with low margins of error like Pantheon's, it's a significantly more 'toxic' mechanic, in my opinion.

Mysterius1 votes

did you really just refer to pantheon as an assassin? LOL

12tales4 votes

http://i.imgur.com/rSvL5lX.png

Play against a full AD pantheon and tell me he isn't an assassin.

Coffee Ray Gun1 votes

How is he not an assassin?

Drunk Rummate4 votes

On a side note, I think champions that do not use mana or energy are toxic in general? Why? Because they can spam skills left and right to their heart's content and never ever worry about running out of mana or energy.

Mana gating is only one way to restrict a champion's play patterns. Take Riven or Yasuo as examples - they're both fairly squishy and lack any sort of sustain. They can only mitigate damage once every 10 seconds or so using their E/Passive, and if you manage to land harass on them when their shield is down, it'll stick. If Riven misuses her shield or if Yasuo uses his Q or E in situations where you can land harass, you can punish them for it. Basically, laning against them is defined by your interaction with and control over their health bar.

Now take another AD assassin that is gated by mana - Pantheon. Pantheon in lane is going to spam Qs at your face until he's OOM. If you have enough armor, you win. If you don't, you die. Basically, laning against him is defined by how he chooses to manage his mana, while you're just a bystander with no real control over what happens to you.

Does that actually sound more interesting or interactive? If someone is gated by CD and health management, you'll have windows of opportunity to attack their primary resource directly, and how well they do in the lane will be primarily based on how well you played around their champion. Someone gated by mana management has their laning defined by a resource that you have no direct control over - if that's accompanied by abilities with low margins of error like Pantheon's, it's a significantly more 'toxic' mechanic, in my opinion.

QFT

What an excellent comparison

MarrowEight7 votes

protips: L2 counter pick

AtheosisX6 votes

The word toxic gets used around here way too much.

Squeaky Dreemurr6 votes

Look... You said fighting Kat is like fighting with one of your (hard CC) abilities disabled, but think about it from Kat's perspective. When you start playing against Plat-Diamond players, playing Kat into a team with ONE or TWO hard CC abilities is like playing with your ULTIMATE disabled. Why? Because these players have enough game knowledge to save those abilities and predict when Katarina will jump in. Also, Kat should only be able to spam Bouncing Blades (Q) in lane. If she spams her Shunpo (E) -> Sinister Steel (W) Combo, notify your jungler and punish her overconfident arse, as her Shunpo is her only escape. Her laning is remarkably weak because of this. If you save your hard CC for when she jumps in and ults you, you remove 50% of her damage potential for the next 45+ seconds. Practically any mid laner can all-in her at this point and come out on top.

Regarding mana and energy based champions, Katarina's abilities are pathetically weak compared to the majority of their abilities. She remains a viable pick because she can spam her own weak abilities. Take that capability away, and she simply becomes nonviable.

When does Katarina excel? Only when people make the mistake of not saving their hard CC to stop her ultimate.

Greedalox5 votes

I feel like the Kat complaints started once Hexakill came out. This worries me.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

It was the same with Ascension, Fiora,Katarina,MasterYi, and Tryndamere everywhere...most of them were shit, but a few half-competent ones get in, and along with lack of any actual teamwork kills any fun to be had in these gametypes: I'm abit disgusted that the first Hexa I witnessed...was from a shit-talking Kat that claimed it took skill to blow up a team that was basically CC-less and going on full tilt while her team had all the CC in the world, giving her massive openings...

Ahris4 votes

I find it stupid that she doesnt need to spin for 3 second to win teamfight. Seen kat just win teamfight for getting ulti off for half a second, or by one reset winning a team fight.

i feel like kat is too good. She can farm in lane and harass in lane with her q, while providing soo much damage late game. Sure you can cc her, but in this 5V5 league game, cc'ing can make anyone useless, so why does kat have the ability to provide so much damage while being extremely safe. Kat is like zed, but zed is a lot worse than kat as she can just shunpo away when she kills someone, and she has aoe damage while zed has energy and only one target he can kill

Khristophoros3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUzNEuH2TkY

BURN THE WITCH

Morgana Senpai3 votes

Katarina is actually in a pretty good place.

Toxic is a gross overstatement of any issue there may be with her.

She is completely reliant on the fact that she is an assassin. Which is what she is. If she goes in at the wrong time she's insta dead. She is very very squishy regardless of any tanky items she may have. As well as she falls off late game in burst damage. Any well engaged team fight, or well defended team fight strongly deters her ability to be effective.

Front lines counter Katarina pretty easily.

And if you are complaining that having to use CC on a champion to prevent them from doing tons of damage then you should really re evaluate your interest in this game.

This game is very much strategy, It's not some profound concept to wait to use a cooldown till a specific champion engages or is in range.

If your team comp has 0 CC, don't go omfg Toxic Kat, rage.

Going into pre 6 Kat she doesn't have long cooldowns or real cost. But nor does garen, or zed (costs are minimal at best) or shen. But hey that's the game you have to adjust towards champions with unique abilities.

Katarina has definitive strengths and weaknesses, which is why think she is good where she is at. She can be shut down easily, or if not addressed can really be a force to shape games.

But thats just it, she can be addressed in numerous ways.

Katarina is fine as she is

Edasich3 votes

Katarina is actually in a pretty good place.

Toxic is a gross overstatement of any issue there may be with her.

She is completely reliant on the fact that she is an assassin. Which is what she is. If she goes in at the wrong time she's insta dead. She is very very squishy regardless of any tanky items she may have. As well as she falls off late game in burst damage. Any well engaged team fight, or well defended team fight strongly deters her ability to be effective.

Front lines counter Katarina pretty easily.

And if you are complaining that having to use CC on a champion to prevent them from doing tons of damage then you should really re evaluate your interest in this game.

This game is very much strategy, It's not some profound concept to wait to use a cooldown till a specific champion engages or is in range.

If your team comp has 0 CC, don't go omfg Toxic Kat, rage.

Going into pre 6 Kat she doesn't have long cooldowns or real cost. But nor does garen, or zed (costs are minimal at best) or shen. But hey that's the game you have to adjust towards champions with unique abilities.

Katarina has definitive strengths and weaknesses, which is why think she is good where she is at. She can be shut down easily, or if not addressed can really be a force to shape games.

But thats just it, she can be addressed in numerous ways.

Katarina is fine as she is

Speaking of Garen, I recently discovered that he counters enemy assassins hard, including Kat. Sure, she can poke him all day with her Bouncing Blades, but she just can't kill him that way. The moment she tries to go in for the kill, all Garen has to do is smash her with Decisive Strike, buzz her down with Judgment, and she's finished--especially if she tries to pull off a Death Lotus. And it only gets worse the longer the game drags on, because he can just keep stacking MR until Kat can't even kill a fly.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Katarina is actually in a pretty good place.

Toxic is a gross overstatement of any issue there may be with her.

She is completely reliant on the fact that she is an assassin. Which is what she is. If she goes in at the wrong time she's insta dead. She is very very squishy regardless of any tanky items she may have. As well as she falls off late game in burst damage. Any well engaged team fight, or well defended team fight strongly deters her ability to be effective.

Front lines counter Katarina pretty easily.

And if you are complaining that having to use CC on a champion to prevent them from doing tons of damage then you should really re evaluate your interest in this game.

This game is very much strategy, It's not some profound concept to wait to use a cooldown till a specific champion engages or is in range.

If your team comp has 0 CC, don't go omfg Toxic Kat, rage.

Going into pre 6 Kat she doesn't have long cooldowns or real cost. But nor does garen, or zed (costs are minimal at best) or shen. But hey that's the game you have to adjust towards champions with unique abilities.

Katarina has definitive strengths and weaknesses, which is why think she is good where she is at. She can be shut down easily, or if not addressed can really be a force to shape games.

But thats just it, she can be addressed in numerous ways.

Katarina is fine as she is

Speaking of Garen, I recently discovered that he counters enemy assassins hard, including Kat. Sure, she can poke him all day with her Bouncing Blades, but she just can't kill him that way. The moment she tries to go in for the kill, all Garen has to do is smash her with Decisive Strike, buzz her down with Judgment, and she's finished--especially if she tries to pull off a Death Lotus. And it only gets worse the longer the game drags on, because he can just keep stacking MR until Kat can't even kill a fly.

Melee bruisers in general are just very good against Kat. Tryndamere, Xin, Riven, J4, and Panth will just make her life miserable for example.

Kat Head1 votes

Katarina is actually in a pretty good place.

Toxic is a gross overstatement of any issue there may be with her.

She is completely reliant on the fact that she is an assassin. Which is what she is. If she goes in at the wrong time she's insta dead. She is very very squishy regardless of any tanky items she may have. As well as she falls off late game in burst damage. Any well engaged team fight, or well defended team fight strongly deters her ability to be effective.

Front lines counter Katarina pretty easily.

And if you are complaining that having to use CC on a champion to prevent them from doing tons of damage then you should really re evaluate your interest in this game.

This game is very much strategy, It's not some profound concept to wait to use a cooldown till a specific champion engages or is in range.

If your team comp has 0 CC, don't go omfg Toxic Kat, rage.

Going into pre 6 Kat she doesn't have long cooldowns or real cost. But nor does garen, or zed (costs are minimal at best) or shen. But hey that's the game you have to adjust towards champions with unique abilities.

Katarina has definitive strengths and weaknesses, which is why think she is good where she is at. She can be shut down easily, or if not addressed can really be a force to shape games.

But thats just it, she can be addressed in numerous ways.

Katarina is fine as she is

Speaking of Garen, I recently discovered that he counters enemy assassins hard, including Kat. Sure, she can poke him all day with her Bouncing Blades, but she just can't kill him that way. The moment she tries to go in for the kill, all Garen has to do is smash her with Decisive Strike, buzz her down with Judgment, and she's finished--especially if she tries to pull off a Death Lotus. And it only gets worse the longer the game drags on, because he can just keep stacking MR until Kat can't even kill a fly.

Melee bruisers in general are just very good against Kat. Tryndamere, Xin, Riven, J4, and Panth will just make her life miserable for example.

Traditional melee toplaners have always countered Kat really hard, it makes sense that she is strong when they are weak and adcs are GODS.

Seriphym1 votes

This EXACTLY!

Red Kat Blue Kat, Fed Kat New Kat.

CC when used, Will simply Screw Kat.

Hayaishi3 votes

An AOE assassin is bullshit to begin with even more with the amount of mobility she has.

She shouldn't even have resets but "muh identity" card defends this.

"Just cc her" The amount of times i've been killed before i can cc her is impossible to count and no she wasnt ahead of me or my team.

The fact that you have to save cc for her is just too stressing compared to what she has to do. If im support i have to peel the irelia off my ADC i cant just save cc for when Katarina feels like going in just to have her zhonyas and wait for any resets. My jungler and top laner have to dive the back line, the teamfight shouldn't come down to whether Katarina ulted or not, that's just binary gameplay.

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

I don't mind Kat on 5v5.... But on Twisted Treeline Hexakill she is horribly op, simply because there are always low enough targets to reset. She does not need her ult.

Seriphym2 votes

I think players that can't learn to simply CC are toxic.

Perhaps the real reason you don't like hearing the CC thing is because its the legit no #$%@ truth and is the flaw in your logic.

Kat Head1 votes

Before anybody says "lol CC her" keep in mind that I think her ult is balanced. Yes, BALANCED.

The problem isn't her ult. Rather, the problem is the 3 basic abilities that she has. They have zero cast times, no resource cost, and the cooldowns are disgustingly short. People say that she does not have kill pressure pre-6, but I beg to differ because she does. She can spam QEW with impunity due to no mana cost, and she can tower dive you and get back out because of the reset. It's really no different from fighting Akali or Fizz, and you know how toxic those champions are. At least Akali and Fizz are gated by energy and mana.

And as for "lol CC her", what that basically means is that if you're fighting her, and the skill you have with the CC is an important lockdown/damage/escape skill, then that means you're stuck using your other 2/3 basic skills until she uses her ult. And by that time, she may kill you before she even has the luxury to ult you. This means that fighting Kat is like as if she disabled one of your abilities, in this case, the one with the crucial CC, which you'll have to use only when she ults.

On a side note, I think champions that do not use mana or energy are toxic in general? Why? Because they can spam skills left and right to their heart's content and never ever worry about running out of mana or energy. And their build paths are far superior too, since they don't ever have to worry about itemizing mana. Most mid-laners have to rush a chalice and spend a big chunk of gold buying mana items causing you to fall behind in damage. Kat doesn't.

Her q has a cast time and that is the reason you cannot use it in your dfg combo, it is what holds her back from being a legit single target assassin. In my opinion it is the reason Katarina cannot see serious LCS play. Her q and her e have really long cooldowns at low levels, only w (sinister steel) has a short cooldown. You are correct that these spells have shorter cooldowns at higher ranks though.

Every champion has kill pressure before 6 if their enemy allows them to have it, there are very few champions kat can trade with pre 6. At level 1 her w spell does "40" damage. She has 56 ad, so she would be better off right clicking you instead of spamming sinister steel on you. Her base damages are really really low due to the fact that she has "resets" and no resource.

You dont just cc her to stop her ultimate, you do it to kill her. Katarina cannot build defensive items early due to needing to snowball to be relevant. When I play Katarina I hardly ever duel. WHY ? Because that is not what Kat is built for and it is not what she is good at. There are very few champions that katarina wins duels with.

I believe that a fed Katarina is easier to shutdown than ANY OTHER FED CHAMPION in the game due to her kit and the way it works.

Please dont call Katarina toxic, she has no cc at all. She brings damage to the table and nothing else, she also does this at the cost of having good wave clear / siege potential. Katarina is a greedy pick because she requires her team to engage and for the most part be winning the team fight before she becomes valuable. Katarina is poor at actually taking objectives (dragon,baron,turret) and takes the slot of your normally safe ap mid laner and jumps in the middle of a team fight with reckless abandon, hoping no praying for a assist or kill or she will die and her team will lose.

The Toxic Life1 votes

I think the main issue with katarina is that she poses so much threat in any teamfight by just standing on the sidelines that you have to save cc spells, leaving other champions that need to be locked down free to do as much damage as possible. Then katarina jumps in and kills you for whatever hp you have left before your even able to cast your cc spell. Her overall gameplay is toxic by definition because she just waits until the enemy team is low on hp and instabursts people with her immense aoe assasination damage, something that shouldnt even be in the game. Comparing her to zed, they both have no cc and zed can only pop one target during a teamfight but katarina has a very high scaling aoe ultimate that resets. Its just not fun to play against a champ like that nor is it fun to die in a 4v5 teamfight only to watch katarina get a pentakill by just quite literally spamming buttons on her keyboard.

DrMarshSwamp1 votes

I feel that Katarina's Shunpo should have a lower range considering its an instant blink/teleport to a targeted unit, along with the way the rest of her kit works it makes her an incredibly huge threat past level six.

And considering that most CC Abilities have a cast time or delay the average Katarina is normally able to Shunpo > Death Lotus and get off fairly large damage before its interrupted.

This is especially worse against Champions who either have low CC or low mobility (or both in some cases) who have to constantly stay out of range (and away from farm) lest she uses her combo to obliterate them.

The resets certainly don't help either.

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