I predict that Veigar will be the next champion on everybody's "cancer" list

Estrogen Rider··15 votes·2,634 views

If it's one thing I learned from pre-nerf Leblanc

from Warwick from pre-chain nerf Ziggs from pre-FOTM Zilean from pre-FOTM Syndra etc.

is that the only thing that stops champions with extremely toxic kits from being hated by the community is that they are severely underplayed. For instance, nobody discovered that Leblanc was highly cancerous until a pro played her.

I think Veigar should be reserved a spot for having one of the most cancerous kits.

Yes you can harass him early game and yes his level 1 trade is pretty bad. But the problem with Veigar is that he is an extremely all or nothing champion, in that, when the conditions are right for him (i.e. when he stuns you), he will nuke you INSTANTLY with no retaliation. And on top of that, he scales with AP infinitely, has a built-in Athene's, and scales off of the enemy's AP.

Playing against a Veigar requires you to cross your fingers together and pray to god that he doesn't stun you. Because if he does, then you're going to be stunned for a very VERY long time, during which he'll throw immensely powerful spells at you until you die. That is the definitely of anti-fun. His stun range is very long, very hard to predict (because it's not a skillshot), and lasts for 2.5 seconds long.

Playing against a Veigar is like playing a game of "dodging the box edge". If you dodge it, great. If not, you'll die, he's going to get fed, and he's going to kill more and more champions with that box. Don't forget that Veigar has the amount of burst that would make even Syndra jealous.

It's no fun at all when your laning phase involves you hoping that you're lucky that you don't hit the box perimeter, and that you're going to be punished with your life for hitting it. Don't forget that it's not a straight line skillshot thus making it very difficult to dodge.

46 Comments

ˇ0ˇ8 votes

I love threads like this that list all of Veigar's strengths that do nothing to address his -horrible- weaknesses.

Let's list them!

His burst at level 6 is actually terrible. His laning is terrible. His stun is negligible until level 8 when you actually put a second point in it. Pushing the lane ruins him. He gets outharassed by damn near everyone. If he is ganked he will be forced to use his stun (and he can still die because hitting it is fucking hard), which drains him of mana. Literally all meta laners fuck him, and many more besides. Tanky heroes that can get in his face late game, AKA Irelia, Shyvana, Mundo, will make him use his entire burst on them and they STILL will not die. If he gets behind he's fucking awful. The slightest bit of MR early on wrecks his shit. His roaming is lackluster. He has counters out the ass, like Fizz, Annie, Kassadin, well played Zed, Brand, Xerath, Syndra, and many many more. If, late game, he cannot properly combo or he burns his E he instantly dies. Many other AP mages have more instantaneous combos which mean that they can Zhonya his R/Q and he's left at their mercy.

Coming from someone who managed to main him to D1, it really irks me when people claim Veigar is OP without playing him at all. Hell, people who claim a champion is OP without even knowing how to play them annoy the shit outta me because they have literally no reference as to how difficult that champion is. Please, play 10 games of Veigar mid vs anyone competent and I guarantee you you'll get your shit kicked in.

Direwolfiez2 votes

Irelia + Merc Treads = dead Veig. Irelia is Veig's worst nightmare: mobile offtank with free Tenacity. I tried to gank an Irelia as Veig once...it was horrible.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

It's not that he's op but his entire existence revolves around making your opponent's game as bad as possible. Even if he loses the lane/game he will kill you at one point from max health and you will feel cheated. And besides I don't play mid.

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

If he loses the lane he's out of the entire game. Once veigar is down it's so difficult to come back because he NEEDS levels for his E. You, and many others, seem to think that Veigar's ult is just woop doop press R instantly delete someone even if you're doing shit. It's not. If you failed in laning, the enemy laner will basically just continue to oneshot you on rotation. Your ultimate, contrary to popular belief, will NOT oneshot other enemies. I can only imagine Veigar ult oneshotting people while he's behind if the enemy build pure AP and not a single shred of MR. Veigar desperately needs to get ahead or stay even in laning because his power is tied to his levels, and his AP scaling, way more than being tied to other champion's amount of AP. If someone had 1K AP, veigar ult at level 16 would do 800 from that alone, sure. However, this is not even counting the MR the enemy should be getting in the first place, nor the fact that Veigar was shut down in the first place. So not only is he going to be extremely weak to the enemy AP because they can blow him up way faster than he can them, literally every other champion will shit all over him due to his main role, bursting someone, not working unless he is farmed himself.

And if you don't even play mid in the first place, why bother to comment on how laning phase, roaming, or the transition from early-mid-late work? You clearly don't know the intricate practices that go into play once Veigar actually gets behind.

Try playing him against someone who he performs poorly against, and then tell me how you managed to carry that game from behind. Literally every champion revolves around making your opponent worse off by getting stronger than them, and Veigar is no different. If he gets behind, he's damn near useless.

mikemil2232 votes

if veigar gets behind, by late game he can still qr and it will do a LOT even if it doesnt kill u instantly. could just flash rq adc and at least they have to leave teamfight or something. or they have to heal up first. idk veigar needs a rework to me

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

If Veigar gets behind he is USELESS. There shouldn't BE a late game. In the same vein that a Nasus who gets behind is damn near useless unless you farm forever, Veigar is useless because his damage without being fed is so lacklaster as to be laughable. If you really let the game progress to late stages, you deserve to lose since Veigar depends on levels and gold so much more than damn near any other champion. If he flash RQs you, he's going to die since, again, he's underfed and isn't going to be killing you, and he doesn't have a zhonyas because he got smashed. You, and many others, seem to be under the delusion that Veigar is a faceroll easy champ when he's easily one of the most intricate ones to play as.

Before you start calling for reworks for champions you don't even play, you should probably stop posting.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

We aren't calling for a rework because we think he facerolls games, but because of how bad it feels to play against him if he is good. This is the reason why nida and rengar got their reworks, why should Veigar avoid it too? This is why we should collect the opinions of his mains about what could make a good rework for him. What is the core identity he has? I think a Goku like charging kamehame for a skill would fit his them really well.

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

How bad it feels to play against him? Hello? Veigar is hard to play as, so he SHOULD be rewarded when played properly. You really do not have the authority to call for a rework at all when the champion is -not- toxic nor unhealthy. Stop trying to rework champs you A) Don't play and B) Don't actually know how they function. If you've noticed, you're in the minority here. No one wants a Veigar rework aside from those who don't know how the hell to play against him.

mikemil2233 votes

if veigar gets behind, by late game he can still qr and it will do a LOT even if it doesnt kill u instantly. could just flash rq adc and at least they have to leave teamfight or something. or they have to heal up first. or if u have dfg he cna just flash dfg r adc and they die. or rq if needed but his ult shouldnt be point and click to scale 100%ap (either 100% or is it more idk i just know its a lot).

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

And, again, if you're letting a late game champ GET TO LATE GAME, you're retarded. Full stop. If you won early game, then you should be looking to end the game instead of farming kills in that Silver 3 elo you're rockin. Veigar's range is also fucking pathetic, so if he's really flash RQing you, you deserve to die ANYWAYS. If he flash RQs, and he dies, but you don't, then you've already won the teamfight since your APC is fed and he is not. If he has DFG, his full combo will STILL not kill an ADC.

You're clearly not a very good theorycrafter, and I bet you've never even played Veigar.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

I pointed out that I don't play mid so you can see I have getting oneshot by his combo when I gank him and I don't have a shed of AP. I think he really shouldn't be able to be relevant in the game unless he gets ahead in lane just because how infuriating his combo is. If his ult has this enemy ap scaling, he should only be able to kill an enemy ap with it, because when he is even in lane his dfg+full rotation can be used to kill anyone in a team from 70% health. When I feed or die versus other champs at least I know that I should have avoided that charm/hook, stayed away from my minions versus yasuo or watched Gnar's rage bar more carefully When you try to kill Veigar who is protected by his tanks he will just drop his stun and delete someone before backing off a bit.

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

Veigar is NOT an anti-ap champion only. Veigar's bases are similar to Annie's, but his W, which is a large chunk of damage, is hard to land unless you walk into the wall. If you really try to gank Veigar as a bot laner, and you don't have others going to help, you're going to die. I don't know what champs you play, but during laning, Veigar can't oneshot combo anyone unless he's already fed, or if they're not at full. This is much less than so many other mid laners that it's not even funny. His combo is only infuriating, as you say, if you decide not to buy QSS or Tenacity versus a champion who relies upon getting his stun off to actually have a hope of deleting someone.
As for his potential to delete people w/ DFG + full combo, so can damn near every other mid laner. You're complaining about Veigar's early game burst as if its actually a problem when a TON of other mid laners have way better burst at that stage in the game, along with a ton of other tools as well. If you want to actually be able to give good critique about Veigar, don't rush into a champ who is burst oriented without a shred of MR and low HP. You deserve to die.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Sorry I might have been a bit angry when I wrote this because I see him a lot more then before and we lose to him way too often. Still I hold my opinion that he should get some kind of rework which gives him a healthier combo and a not so hit or miss powercurve.

ˇ0ˇ1 votes

Good, you can have your opinion. What you will not have is a rework when you clearly know nothing about the champion in question.

Curling Veigar6 votes

You forgot to list his weaknesses.

If he's put behind, despite the stereotype, he won't be 100-0ing you unless you're building full glass cannon AP, which you shouldn't. He's immobile, putting himself at risk to hop near you to attempt to burst you. If he misses his stun, your tank CC's him and he pops like a balloon. Merc treads MR Mobility can make him miss his stun. Banshees. QSS

I could go on

IceKingChernobog3 votes

I main veig and i can say a bit of this is true, he can get harassed and killed until he gets a dfg or a fully charged arch angel's staff. One thing about veigar is that if he falls behind he has enough utility from his stun to snowball

Direwolfiez2 votes

Went up as Veig against pre-rework Nid, went 0-3 in lane, focused her in teamfights, boom, AP Nid got deleted. I basically just sat behind my front line and waited for the perfect moment to use E. I got 4 or 5 kills out of 1-2 teamfights alone, and a handful of assists. You're right about how easy it is to snowball, even if behind, but the key to beating him is trashing him and his entire team before he can get to 1-shot potential. In a different game I got to the point where I could 1-shot every enemy champ, even the tanks, yet my team wasn't playing accordingly, and I got caught out and murdered every time because my tanks would run away and leave me. Even when they stuck with me I'd get focused and jumped on and blown up before I could do much damage. Even if a Veig is fed, teamfights are the way to beat him, since that's the riskiest time for a fed Veig.

Leblancs Boob3 votes

I don't think Veigar is particularly "OP", but his kit certainly lacks any kind of counterplay. The problem with him is that his ult punishes you for beating him. His e is also good enough to be an ult on top of his w thats nearly unavoidable after his e. He's definetely an underrated pick.

Anidan2 votes

Not only all of this, but he also has enough in the way of counters that no one will suspect it until it finally hits all at once. Then, the people will clamor on that the counters aren't sufficient and so on until a Veigar nerf, and then the cycle keep on spinning ad infinitum.

IceKingChernobog2 votes

With veigar counters kinda mean nothing when he gets 4 or 5 items and can just dfg R/QWE nuke your carries. 1 shotting a LB or a fizz is the most satisfying thing ever for me

Anidan1 votes

Ah, but my friend, that's what I was implying! The beauty of it is that everyone believes he has [x] counters that will always keep him down. Except, with him they can't counter him forever. He just keeps scaling and scaling and scaling. And even if he's behind for a little bit? Huge stun area of denial. They cross it, they die or take irreparable amounts of damage and have to leave off of just that. There's the concept that Veigar can be countered throughout the whole game and made near useless like some mids can be, but with his huge area of denial and enormous stun duration and damage to go with it (one ability even goes so far as to scale off an enemy's AP for free damage) it's actually incredibly difficult to keep him down meaningfully.

Direwolfiez1 votes

I dunno, Zed ruins his day pretty hard. Sure, a DFG + full combo will decimate any Zed, but he's naturally slippery, so he has a huge natural advantage over Veigs.

The Loveless1 votes

If it takes more than one skill, I wouldn't call it a 1-shot.

3ternalkarma4 votes

If it takes more than one skill, I wouldn't call it a 1-shot.

yea... tell that to your mid laner who has 700+ ap... he pressed R... it did 2k+

The Loveless1 votes

Read Tanuk's post. What he describes isn't 1-shotting.

Zaikyo2 votes

If it takes more than one skill, I wouldn't call it a 1-shot.

Yea, in the context of league of legends, people always use "1-shot" instead of "100-0'd" or simply "deleted". You already know all this though, and are just being nitpicky.

The Loveless1 votes

No I just believe in not being lazy.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsTIb99X,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2014-11-30T01:09:17.513+0000)

If it takes more than one skill, I wouldn't call it a 1-shot.

I think 1-shot describes anything where you 100-0 someone with a single rotation or less.

Poke Bot2 votes

Veigar isn't played as much because aiming his stun is still a secret art as the the targeting circle is outdated and doesn't give much of a hint as to where exactly it stuns. But yes, Veigar is horrible in terms of design. Not only does he scale infinitely, but he also scales with the opponent's AP gain so he gets to catch up for free even if he falls behind. The counter to Veigar is to just not play AP against him, which is why you won't see him picked in tournaments but still remains horribly broken in solo queue.

I'd like for Veigar to get some updated mechanics. Stronger early game, less strong late game, more elaborate mechanic than one-shotting people and easier stuns to land that's less crippling.

FarRockBF2 votes

I have never played as Veigar. But I can tell you that the 4-5 times I went against Veigar as my main (Annie) the same thing happened every time - I won lane hard. He proceeds to roam and delete everyone. Come mid-late game my 3k gold lead is meaningless; he deletes me too.

SeCKS Egai2 votes

The biggest thing that kept him out of popularity was mana management - with the nerfs to itemization he gets nothing there.

The other major factor has been the domination of mobile assassins. Sure veigar has an aoe stun, but its got a specific hitbox and dark matter shouldn't land without the stun holding someone in place anyway.

Sure he's got the potential to one shot anyone in the game - but the counterplay is to end the game before he ever gets that strong (like with Nasus).

Meep Man2 votes

Its actually a little more complex than that. Pros play the underplayed champion because they somehow are indirectly buffed through either new items, nerfed counters, or a meta shift.

Moving on, Veigar will be the next big champion IF Zed is nerfed. Even slightly enough to make him not A-Game. Veigar will have his time eventually.

Also, maybe he will be like Twitch where his VU will suddenly make him the best in his role for no reason.

Raptamei2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EsTIb99X,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2014-12-26T17:40:36.838+0000)

Also, maybe he will be like Twitch where his VU will suddenly make him the best in his role for no reason.

The Pulsefire Effect™.

+25 bonus points if people then proceed to whine and cry that Riot are incompetent, even though they overlooked the champion and reported people who played them before some pro told them that the champion is actually ok.

+25 bonus points if the champion has a very low winrate in solo queue, so the vast majority of the community never has any real problems beating the champion. ("WHAA LEBLANC IS GAME BREAKING AND TOXIC" -> 44% winrate in solo queue)

mikemil2232 votes

i just dont like how if you are melee he can just put the stun around you. and late game his ult q are so strong that if you dont have mr u die instantly. well if he has voidstaff u most likely will still die. there are a lot of pros and cons for this champ (and a lot of others) but if there are more pros than cons the champ needs to be nerfed in my opinion. but for veigar, his ult should be a skill shot instead of press click boom but that would be the only thing really cause hes easy to kill

Sooko1 votes

I only doubt about it for a few simple reasons: Zed is very popular right now, and he is Veigar's second worst enemy in the entire game, I hate him! Blinks, AD, untargetability, huge kill potential at 6, decent bullying...

Yasuo will never become unpopular either, who also has a blink and AD scalings

Morgana is still banned and picked very often, and she is Veigar's worst nightmare. Rendering Veig's stun worthless makes him lose all his CC, and she is virtually ungankable.

Katarina seems to become increasingly more popular ever since Hexakill, where she was spammed every game. Her blink and the fact that placing your stun on targets standing still is hard make her quite strong against Veigar as well.

Ryze spam. I know he is usually played top, but since he now goes top, he allows an AD to go mid, rendering Veigar's anti-AP kit quite worthless as well.

Fecking Fizz remains unnerfed for so long he will not leave mid that easily.

Every new champion has a dash/blink for the flashy plays.

Blue requirements become lower the more champions are released, unlike Veigar, who has mana problems all game

It wasn't that long ago that Xerath became spammed, who also gives Veigar a ton of problems.

Bullies are favored a lot more over late game champs right now (see: Cassiopeia vs for example Lee Sin), to let them secure more dragons early rather than stalling the game

Then there are a few Dianas or Rivens or Akalis or Ezreals and even a Galio once, but those weren't a majority of games. The point is, Veigar thrives vs immobile mages, who are as outclassed as he is, and so, this keeps him from being a monster. Maybe when Karthus becomes FotM Veigar will be picked up, but for now, flashy plays > old school mages

Direwolfiez2 votes

Yasuo will never become unpopular either, who also has a blink and AD scalings

I hate Yasuo, but I have to say, his only blink is on his ult. His E only gives him a dash, which means that CC can hit him while he's dashing, it's just incredibly hard to pull off if you haven't perfected the timing and have experience playing against Yasuos (which pretty much everyone has by now).

Hayaishi1 votes

he's pretty annoying.

Yawnli1 votes

pfff vlad dumpsters veigar

Stars Shaper1 votes

I guess you guys will have to wait for Urgot to be on that list to acknowledge that a game adapting to players is the worst thing ever and it should be the other way around.

IAM2FKINGKawaii1 votes

Akali Zed Fizz Azir Ahri Maybe when all these champions are drastically nerfed

asktiks1 votes

zed , irelia, a well played azir can wreck his day pretty good that said however, yes , if left alone he can pretty much keep building ap and destroy ...anyone silences , stuns work pretty good but he outranges you with his stun but if you know what youre doing you just juke it, murder him while its on cooldown

Epicusmaximo1 votes

Meh. You're just a noob me thinks.

AD? Build a maw + tenacity.

AP? Build a banshees + tenacity.

Certain champs like Olaf, Akali, Zed, Yi, Fiora, Fizz, and a house of others absolutely shit on Veigar. All you gotta do is build tenacity and go ham.

Der Lindwurm1 votes

So, basically, "cancerous" = effective when played properly?

Raptamei1 votes

Sigh.

You can easily stay at a distance, bait his stun with the dash every champion has now, build MR instead of rushing AP, etc. This is a strategy game and if you get stunned at half health, it's your own damn fault.

"Cancer champion" = "I don't want to think, I just want to mash buttons. WTF I DIED. CANCER."

CoolKnightST1 votes

I can agrea his kit is anyoing. He will just oneshot you without the use of summoner 21 and doesn't even have to be that fed.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

QSS the stun and Zhonyas the ultimate. Veigar won't one shot anybody until he finishes his DFG, and then only if he lands his full combo. Learn the range on his box and play around it. He's not too bad.

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