-.3 hp regen LOL
Why don't you tackle the ACTUAL issue, which is you overbuffed his W passive. This dude gets way too goddamn tanky way too goddamn fast. It's almost like you tried to have him compete with chogath on who could get to 6k hp the fastest (not surprisingly both are a part of the top tier competitively OP tanks).
ModAcademy Kayn22 votesUntil you realize that the reason that Sion has such high Health regen, is because he starts with the lowest base HP. Since it's easier and faster to get higher HP now, it makes sense that they should nerf the crutch that he had formerly relied on ago, elsewise he'd be double dipping.
Tychusfindlay9183 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x5ENLZQU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-03T17:21:59.278+0000)
Until you realize that the reason that Sion has such high Health regen, is because he starts with the lowest base HP. Since it's easier and faster to get higher HP now, it makes sense that they should nerf the crutch that he had formerly relied on ago, elsewise he'd be double dipping.
They've already gone down the hp regen path before. This isn't his first hp regen nerf.
And lane regen is far from sion's most glaring problems.
ModAcademy Kayn9 votesWell, it's what lowering the Regen does. By lowering regen, Sion requires more time to heal back any health during trades, meaning that he has less health when you choose to reengage for another trade so ya have a better chance to win against him. It hurts his jungle as well, meaning he'll have less health for any attacks/ganks. Doesn't matter too much later in the game, which is where Sion isn't a problem in the first place.
Ralanr11 votesWhile I’m still in the party that thinks Sion shouldn’t have to compete with Cho’gath on the highest health since that’s part of Sion’s original gimmick, I agree that this isn’t the right nerf.
I’d rather they hit his AD scalings. Hit AD Sion instead of tank Sion.
MorganFreemanBot8 votesWhile I’m still in the party that thinks Sion shouldn’t have to compete with Cho’gath on the highest health since that’s part of Sion’s original gimmick, I agree that this isn’t the right nerf.
I’d rather they hit his AD scalings. Hit AD Sion instead of tank Sion.
What the actual shit.
They already gutted Sion's poke damage this season; like straight up gutted. They also neutered any early-game lead which AD sion had via the Q nerf. The E gutting was warranted, the Q was overkill.
Sion was dumpster tier until his recent buff. The only 'problem' with him right now is that, in a scenario where he can farm a lot, he becomes very tough very fast.
Guess what scenario that is? High elo and pro games.
AD Sion is perfectly fine. Niche, and generally a 'cheese' strat, but fine.
The last thing Sion needs is to have his jungle strength further gutted.
Ralanr3 votesI was under the impression that AD Sion was uncommonly strong and picked more often in Diamond and up. But a quick look at league of Graphs showcased I was incorrect. Though it does show that Glacial Augment is picked slightly more than grasp, though that could be me misinterpreting data.
As for why I'd rather they hit Sion's AD scalings generally, because I honestly don't like the abuse of AD Sion even as a cheese strategy. I'm not suggesting they turn his total AD ratio's all to bonus or cut it by half, rather I'd just reduce it a little. I'd rather they cut this than his durability and sustain because I feel as a tank, even if his abilities are unreliable, I'd rather they not nerf his durability and just hit his damage, obviously not to an insane degree, but I guess that's what people think I mean when I suggest hitting an offensive scaling.
But hey, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
MorganFreemanBot2 votesI was under the impression that AD Sion was uncommonly strong and picked more often in Diamond and up. But a quick look at league of Graphs showcased I was incorrect. Though it does show that Glacial Augment is picked slightly more than grasp, though that could be me misinterpreting data.
As for why I'd rather they hit Sion's AD scalings generally, because I honestly don't like the abuse of AD Sion even as a cheese strategy. I'm not suggesting they turn his total AD ratio's all to bonus or cut it by half, rather I'd just reduce it a little. I'd rather they cut this than his durability and sustain because I feel as a tank, even if his abilities are unreliable, I'd rather they not nerf his durability and just hit his damage, obviously not to an insane degree, but I guess that's what people think I mean when I suggest hitting an offensive scaling.
But hey, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
If AD Sion is abusing someone, then that person is to blame and no one else.
Let me be very clear here: Sion is not master yi. He does not have a point-and-click gap-closing nuke which resets on kill. He does not have an R which heavily augments his damage, gives him a boatload of movement speed, and makes him inescpable. (FYI, Sion's ultimate is one of the easiest things to avoid in the game).
Further more, Sion's Q is probably the healthiest ability in this game.
The channel time makes it.. Well, insanely easy to counter. Any kind of displacement, hard CC, or silence counters it. Any channel interruption counters it. Any dash (and in many cases, suitable movement speed boost) counters it.
Most champions have multiple ways to counter it; be that through multiple forms of hard CC, multiple movement abilities, or some combination there of.
This last of champions who do not have very hard counters to Sion's Q is .. short. It's generally old-school ADCs, such as MF and Kog. Ryze fits in as well. However all of these champions are ranged, and therefor have a pretty decent time of not being in that place in the first place.
With all of the ways to avoid Sion's Q, it should bloody well hurt. Getting smacked with a skilled up & max rank Sion Q represents a failing on the side of the player who was hit, and they DESERVE to have their day ruined as a result.
The only exception to this rule is 
. The poor guy is basically screwed tbh.
Nerfing Sion's Q nerfs the healthiest part of his kit; the part which is unreliable, has high counter play, and is supposed to be immensely rewarding when successfully executed.
If Sion needs nerfs (which I don't believe; his current strength is a direct result of gameplay style and other picks being nerfed), it's to his E. His E has always been a problem, because it takes a hard-tank and gives them a poke-mage laning pattern. It also gives him extraordinarily long-range gank assist, peel, ect ect.
It's even more 'toxic' from a wave clear perspective. E-ing the first minion through a wave, and getting a lot of easy push, has no real counter play. While trying to smack a wave with a fully charged Q not only places Sion in harms way, but has him stand there like a dope for 2 seconds and beg to be flanked and murdered.
Lastly: Sion was my jungle main at the beginning of this season. I loved him, and I still do. Despite the scuttle changes he's still alright, but the most recent round of Q nerfs hit him hard. It dramatically influenced his tempo and made him a much, much weaker jungler. Any further nerfs will go completely overboard, and remove his ability to remotely compete in the jungle.
Ralanr4 votesI know how Sion works buddy.
Mael Jade1 votesWell, they already nerfed his E max play style which was the dominant one at the start of the season where you would go Arcane Comet, Scorch and poke out the enemy with a Dring start+E max. And yes, it was very unhealthy back then because of the danger/thread range he had. It was nerfed and they buffed his Q instead. About his HP and competing with Cho: Sion has one of (if not the lowest) base hp both at level 1 and level 18 in comparison with other tanks. He needs some way of getting more tanky or else he is a champion with unreliable damage, engage and insanely easy to kill
AirKingNeo2 votesI’d rather they hit his AD scalings. Hit AD Sion instead of tank Sion.
Any logical reasoning, please?
Ralanr1 votesI posted my response to Morgan above.
General Matty1 votesWhile I’m still in the party that thinks Sion shouldn’t have to compete with Cho’gath on the highest health since that’s part of Sion’s original gimmick, I agree that this isn’t the right nerf.
I’d rather they hit his AD scalings. Hit AD Sion instead of tank Sion.
I agree with this. he does too much damage with his abilities, his health isn't really as big of an issue of they would just tone down his damage.
boricCentaur17 votescho and sion both should be nerfed since there just boring to fight and just win lane to easy.
ForgottenStone2 votesPersonally I think super tanks are good to counter all the 100 - 0 we have going on lately from all the burst champs.
Tychusfindlay9181 votesPersonally I think super tanks are good to counter all the 100 - 0 we have going on lately from all the burst champs.
They aren't, because it incentivizes riot to try to break bruisers to compete with them.
Starts a fairly vicious cycle.
ProfDrDeath2 votesIf him regen'ing too much due to W's HP stacking is the problem, they should just make his HP stacking work like Tear's stacking does. Instead of giving him +4 current and max HP, killing a minion should give him 4 max HP and (4 x current %HP) current HP.
Or, rather, give him +3 max HP and (3 x current %HP) current HP, reverting the recent buff for killing small fry.
Ok sure but why2 votesAnd here I am still building him full lethality support
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesThe W buff is fine. Him having innate waveclear at level 7 with 4 points in Q and ZERO AD bought is the problem and WHY his W is the problem. Tanks are fine to have waveclear. That isn't the issue. The issue is that he gets waveclear from ONE single cast of an ability that frankly doesn't cost mana. 45 mana means nothing when it clears the casters on its own meaning he can do whatever he want with the rest of it like E'ing you or W'ing all attempted harass. The champion simply doesn't run out of mana especially with Corrupting+Time Warp and can do whatever with his gold and just ignore his lane opponent. At least Ornn has to commit most if not all of his abilities to waveclear and runs out of mana if he doesn't get catalyst or glacial shroud. Sion just rushes Sunfire or a Visage and laughs at you.
Cloud2731 votesThey should nerf his waveclear, because that would make it harder for him to get tanky (and tanks aren't supposed to have good waveclear anyways).
Ralanr5 votesExcuse me? Top lane and jungle tanks need waveclear to actually function in those areas. Poppy, Maokai, Nautilus, Zac, Sejuani, Ornn, etc all have one or two AoE abilities that help them push lanes. Sion has so much because he’s also a bully, forcibly pushing lanes to make him easier to gank.
Support tanks like Braum, Leona, and Tahm aren’t supposed to have good waveclear because their job is protecting their ADC or locking down for them. If they had good waveclear they’d get in the way of farming.
Cloud2731 votesExcuse me? Top lane and jungle tanks need waveclear to actually function in those areas. Poppy, Maokai, Nautilus, Zac, Sejuani, Ornn, etc all have one or two AoE abilities that help them push lanes. Sion has so much because he’s also a bully, forcibly pushing lanes to make him easier to gank.
Support tanks like Braum, Leona, and Tahm aren’t supposed to have good waveclear because their job is protecting their ADC or locking down for them. If they had good waveclear they’d get in the way of farming.
Really? Sejuani has the most garbage waveclear in this game and she's still strong (even though she's super overnerfed now, but even before her nerfs waveclear was garbage). You're wrong. Tanks don't need godlike waveclear. They just need their cc and they're good.
Ralanr4 votesTanks need waveclear to clear the jungle at a decent speed and to properly lane in top. Without it, they might as well all go support.
If you took away Sejuani’s AoE then I doubt she could jungle effectively.
Lajinn51 votesReally? Sejuani has the most garbage waveclear in this game and she's still strong (even though she's super overnerfed now, but even before her nerfs waveclear was garbage). You're wrong. Tanks don't need godlike waveclear. They just need their cc and they're good.
A tank without waveclear/AoE becomes useless, as they become unable to lane effectively or clear the jungle effectively, sticking them with support as their only useful role. Unlike other roles they don't build damage, so they can't delete their way through things with autos/single target abilities like other champions
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesYeah thats cool and all, but you forgot to mention that the rest of those champions have significantly worse waveclear than Sion. Sion presses Q once after level 7 and poof there goes the wave. If Ornn wants to kill casters he has to full charge W, and then Q+E them. Ornn commits well over 100 mana to kill casters while Sion just sits there on his Q which most melee champions can't punish especially with its massive hitbox that isn't remotely close to the indicator. Poppy has to always commit 2x Q. Ornn commits everything. Mao commits at least 2x Q. Sion ONLY needs to use his insignificant 45 mana Q and the casters get removed and he is free to do whatever he wants such as W any and all harass since it isn't like he is committing mana to do anything else. Someone like Maokai and Ornn NEED Catalyst or Glacial Shroud to sit in lane longer. Sion just sleeps top lane with Corrupting+Time Warp and ignores you after level 6 since he is free to just buy a spectres cowl or a chain vest first and skip a mana item.
Ralanr1 votesProbably because Sion is a lane bully who is meant to push waves so hard to make him an easier target to gank?
Mael Jade1 votesI´ve played around 150 games of Sion just this season and as long as you are going full tank and dont have any bonus AD runes your Q cant kill a wave on its own. You always need a fully charged up Q and an E or W to kill caster minions.
Ralanr1 votesEh, I’ve killed waves late game with my Q alone, at least on casters.
I run sorcery secondary still so that’s probably why. And sometimes I grab a strerakes because of how good it is on Sion.
Mael Jade1 votesWell, I am a Grasp+Time Warp Tonic Abuser so I dont have bonus AD. But normally your Q wont one hit ranged minions when fully charged
Trinity Ace1 votesNerf Sion harder and also nerf Poppy. Thank you in advance Riot!
PopcornBunni1 votes[{quoted}](name=Trinity Ace,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x5ENLZQU,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-10-03T22:32:25.003+0000)
Nerf Sion harder and also nerf Poppy. Thank you in advance Riot!
Poppy only does well into a handful of fighters (
) and against opposing tanks with predictable single-use dashes (
). The only other time she can do anything at all is against an opponent that doesn't know you can just stay on the road in lane and it completely mitigates her wall stun, or in support where she can catch people out and peel. She loses lane hard to any poke, sustain, mage, or against anyone with better waveclear.
All eat poppy
ThiccDaddddy1 votesWas patch notes released m?
PVPmaster LOL1 votesHow about Sion gain permanent max health equal to 1% of the dead unit's max hp? I guess that should slow down his early game and accelerate his late game. Minions generally have 300 hp at level 1 scaling up to 400 in about 30 mins. Not sure tho.
Sire Hippington1 votesHis HP isn't the issue, it's how dominant his lane is between harras, waveclear and strong trades paired with a semi global ult. Sion hardly has any matchup where he doesn't controll the top side of the map.
If you look at his winrate/gamelength, you notice that his win starts very high and then drops alot later into the game, which should be the opposite if his scaleing health actually was the reason for why he's strong.
Hitting his base regen makes him a bit more vulneable in lane, so it attacks at the right point, just that 0.3 probably won't be enough to change much.
HomeDepot1 votesGames are over before he even gets Tanky anyways.
Clockwork Mouse1 votesGood, Sion needs a nerf like Ashe needs one. leave the big man alone, he only as so much going for him
Z3Sleeper1 votes"Only so much going for him"
Dominates the laning phase. Scales into a huge hunk of meat with decent CC and damage that retains threat value even in death.
Clockwork Mouse1 votesIn what world does Sion dominate laning phase? Jax dominates top lane, Pantheon Dominates, Garen is dominating. Sion is on the same level as any other tank.
Z3Sleeper1 votes...you know why his E got nerfed right? It reduced the abuse but he's still a lane bully. Especially since they buffed his Q right after.
Clockwork Mouse1 votesdude that is so old news. We are talking bout current stuff. Also, that E wasn't a problem until they changed the runes and it applies comet and scorch to people.
Z3Sleeper1 votesOof, idk why this "it's not the champion, it's the runes!" argument keeps coming up.
Bottom line, if the universal tools given to all champions create a few outliers that synergize too well into abuse cases, you nerf the abuse cases, not the runes.
That said, if Comet was really good on every champion that used it, but super OP on one champion, guess what we call that one champion?
Anyway onto the lane bully thing: It still exists. The power is just in his Q rather than his E now so he isn't chunking from a mile away but rather from a more reasonable range.
There's a reason people still play him top, and it's not because his ult and Q are super reliable in teamfights.
Clockwork Mouse2 votesThe runes give everyone too much damage. Everyone in the game does too much damage because of them. No one needs to even try. some champs can miss half of their skill shots and kill you. And the Sion issues were directly from the runes. Do you think that the game was ever balanced around the idea that tanks building HP can crack towers because of Demolish? When Sion had 6000+ HP, walks up to a tower and takes half of it's HP away because your whole team can't kill him fast enough, do you think that is Sion or the ruin?
Build HP, do massive tower damage Hit someone with an abilaty? Ahri or comet go and do a bit more damage Hit someone after your stun them? Poke you with some true damage Hit someone with an abilaty? let's add a bit more magic burn damage Game is going on longer then 20 min? we got a ruin that gives more more damage for that, along with just being in river, or buying MS items, or CDR You killed someone! More attack speed and you can get more gold, and some HP You dashed, here is some armor/magic pen
All these runes are busted, they have really fucked the balance of the game. It would be better if there were no runes at all at this point.
Z3Sleeper1 votesBut they've been here the whole season and they aren't going away. So in the meantime, champions need to be balanced around them.
This is how we've always had things balanced. Items and runes are made around champions, then champions are balanced around those items and runes.
Regardless of how broken they are, you can't justify an outlier remaining an outlier just because "runes".
Clockwork Mouse1 votesToo bad Riot has already stated they are not going to balance anything anymore, at least not until the E-sports stuff is done with. We are stuck with this crap until preseason. Most likely though they will hot fix Sion, nerf him too much and there goes one of my fave champs to play.[zombie-nunu-bummed]
PopcornBunni1 votes[{quoted}](name=Clockwork Mouse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x5ENLZQU,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-10-05T01:21:15.146+0000)
Good, Sion needs a nerf like Ashe needs one. leave the big man alone, he only as so much going for him
He's the single tank playable in a meta of bruisers. When tanks are actually usable he crushes others while doing their job better as well. Come preseason when everyone has access to base resistances he'll be even stronger than his fellow tanks thanks to getting access to both resistances without a forethought due to his infinite scaling health.
PopcornBunni1 votesCho isn't a tank though. He's an immobile juggernaut lacking any engage or disengage who locks opponents down to prevent their escape with a single hard CC. 
are in the same camp.
Health regen nerf is a potentially good approach to differentiate Vanguards and Wardens though. Give Vanguards more upfront burst survivability and Wardens more sustained health regen and trading power. This particular nerf's numbers are absolutely a joke though.
e46 Fanatic1 votesOkay. There is nothing wrong with high hp, because of conqueror and armor pen, high defences yet mid hp champs get one hit. So in some cases we NEED a high hp champ, just maybe one with low scaling armor/magic resist so that it balances out and he kinda has more of a reason to be other than simply being tanky, used to counter true damage champs/runes/items