Crit is not an unwanted stat on bruisers.

WoonStruck·Oct 9, 2014·20 votes·2,532 views

Its actually a great stat that functions as a random Trinity Force proc for bruisers.

If you want some damage and tankiness, Atma's and Trinity Force was a great combo netting you 25% crit chance that originally sat around 35% with green elixir, plus more if you ever utilized ghostblade. It gave you a crit on a 2 second cooldown, essentially, that also benefited from additional random natural crits.

The problem isn't that crit is unwanted for bruisers, its that Riot has pidgeon-holed crit to ADC itemization.

Stop the bias Riot.

44 Comments

Meme KingOct 9, 20148 votes

Crit scales with AD and AS, so it works best with champions that go full AS and AD, not champions that go tanky. 10% crit works much better if you have tons of AD and AS to make the crits hurt more, as well as making you crit more often.

BlazingSalvoOct 10, 20143 votes

The point is that the frequency of autos on champions like Xin or Jarvan are frequent enough that a small amount of crit is more or less like the frequency of a Trinity spellblade proc.

Plus, most bruisers like J4 or Xin have AS steroid (which scales like you said) or a damage multiplier (J4 and Xin armor shred).

Just because you can't crit for 900 doesn't mean it's not worth it to occasionally crit for 260.

redniwediSOct 9, 20146 votes

Green elixir? I think you've been gone for a little while...

101100111000Oct 9, 20148 votes

Green elixir? I think you've been gone for a little while...

Well he did say it WAS a good combo, implying it doesn't work anymore. :v

Sire HippingtonOct 9, 20144 votes

The problem is that crit is random. If i play toplane and go for a trade, i want to be able to predict the outcome as good as possible. Low amounts of critchance are bad for that, u can't rely on having a crit in a trade(which also is a problem with trinity force, or more with crit in generall) Having a potential 730 g wasted cause u don'T crit in a fight is bad. Facing an enemy that gains way more value from an item than he should because he gets a lucky crit also sucks.

I'd rather see a rework on crit, getting rid of RNG, befor changeing crit items. And a Atmas that gives 20ad rather than 15% crit ontop off the armor and %health into ad would become alot more popular. Or if it just had a better health scaleing or more armor.... As a toplane main, i hate the crit on Atmas!

ZanathaxOct 10, 20144 votes

The problem is that Riot made this HUGE deal back when they got rid of dodge about how RNG was just bad for the game, then came up with a giant line of horse dookey as to why this didn't apply to crit! The truth is that dodge was too strong on certain champs(Jax, specifically, but also Udyr to some extent) and they wanted it gone as part of their S3 campaign to neuter all melee champions and relegate them to second class citizens!

Well, mission ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no role in the game where a melee champion is considered superior to a ranged champion in a similar role - with the exception of a few melee champs who have what is basically spammable ranged attacks, effectively making them hybrids between the two. Tanks are almost a thing of the past at this point! A large number of the most recent series of LCS games teams didn't even pick a tank OR a fighter at all for their team!

If they actually remove crit - the logical next move, ADC itemization will simply start to look more and more like mage itemization, except for the addition of AS.

S5 needs to look a LOT different than S4, or else I, sadly, will have to move on. All of my favorite champs are melee champs, and they are very literally 2nd class citizens now! While I can understand that the total domination by fighters in S2 wasn't a great thing, this total domination by ADCs is far, far, FAR worse! How in the heck did Riot think that simultaneously buffing armor and MR pen ENORMOUSLY and utterly destroying any defensive itemization wouldn't end up with melee champs as utterly useless is beyond me, but except for a small group of assassins, that's where we are!

Yandere CarryOct 10, 20141 votes

bye

Zionga0Oct 10, 20141 votes

The problem is that crit is random. If i play toplane and go for a trade, i want to be able to ppredict the outcome as good as possible. [...] As a toplane main, i hate the crit on Atmas

And then you remember Tryndamere this guy exists.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20141 votes

don'T tell me anyone enjoys dieing to tryn at lvl 2 cause he got 2-3 crits in a row....

Zionga0Oct 11, 20141 votes

The point is, Atma is far from the worst offender in the crits department.

Sire HippingtonOct 11, 20142 votes

The point is, crit is flawed by RNG, especially in low values, Atmas is an item with low crit values that usually is used without aditional crit(or only 10% from trinity), and therefor it is flawed. Pointing out that there are worse things doesn'T make Atmas better

ZulgainesOct 10, 20142 votes

The problem is that crit is random. If i play toplane and go for a trade, i want to be able to ppredict the outcome as good as possible. Low amounts of critchnce are bad for that, u can't rely on having a crit in a trade(which also is a problem with trinity force, or more crit in generall) Having a potential 730 g wasted cause u don'T crit in a fight is bad. Facing an enemy that gains way more value from an item than he should because he gets a lucky crit also sucks.

I'd rather see a rework on crit, getting rid on RNG, befor changeing crit items. And a Atmas that gives 20ad rather than 15% crit ontop off the armor and %health into ad, it would become alot more popular. Or if it just had a better health scaleing or more armor.... As a toplane main, i hate the crit on Atmas!

I don't know if it still functions as thus, but crit chance isn't totally RNG in LoL. The more attacks you make without critting the more likely you are to crit on the next attack.

It's why that one early crit mastery was changed and seen as OP.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20141 votes

It still is total RNG. The odds to crit are higher if u didn'T crit a while, and lower if u recently got a crit, but if u crit on a single hit is always determind by RNG, and while the odds are very low for critting 3 time in a row with 25%crit, it IS still possible. same for not criting. If u had 9 hit's without crit, chances are high u will crit next time, but that only means the odds are better, not that u are bound to crit, it IS still random.

ZulgainesOct 10, 20142 votes

It still is total RNG. The odds to crit are higher if u didn'T crit a while, and lower if u recently got a crit, but if u crit on a single hit is always determind by RNG, and while the odds are very low for critting 3 time in a row with 25%crit, it IS still possible. same for not criting. If u had 9 hit's without crit, chances are high u will crit next time, but that only means the odds are better, not that u are bound to crit, it IS still random.

A 99% chance is still random. You could hit that 1% four times in a row. It IS possible. The point of the sticky probability mechanic in LoL is to help balance the RNG of crit chance.

In other words it means lower levels of crit are more cost efficient than higher levels of crit because you get an artificially increased average number of crits due to the Increasing return effect of not critting.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20141 votes

not really, the gain/decrease off critchance evens out. If u have 10% crit, u start woth a lower chance on the first hit, like 3%(just random number here), and then go up each hit till u reach 100% or more or till u crit(well, with 100% u will crit..) The numbers for the start chance and the increase are choosen so that it evens out at 10% in average, meaning on a huge sample size like 1000hits, u will have 10% crits(100 in that case).

that means lower critchance is not more costefficient than higher.

Aspie NunuOct 9, 20143 votes

Remember when health as a stat was easier to get and item 3005 scaled 2% rather than 1.5%?

WoonStruckOct 9, 20142 votes

Remember when health as a stat was easier to get and scaled 2% rather than 1.5%?

Actually, health is generally higher now than in S1 and S2 when tanks were about resists. However, the random health on items WAS slightly higher.

Also, its not that you don't get enough AD out of the health->AD ratio, its that so many items are worth so much gold and do so much more in comparison that its not worth getting anymore, especially since Trinity has been gutted to a state where only champions that can abuse the sheen proc will want it, meaning the crit isn't high enough to be a good stat. Its like buying 20 MR on a bruiser; you aren't really getting good use out of the stat, but that doesn't mean its unwanted entirely.

Aspie NunuOct 9, 20142 votes

I thought item 3083 gave 1200 health in s2. And yeah when an item is bad in comparison to other items that generally means it's a weak item. Increasing the AD it gives would make it more viable.

Hypochondria9Oct 10, 20141 votes

You use to have to kill minions to stack it, but it capped at like 1300.

WoonStruckOct 9, 20143 votes

Remember when health as a stat was easier to get and scaled 2% rather than 1.5%?

Actually, health is easier to get now. S1 and S2 were about resists.

Also, its not that you don't get enough AD out of the health->AD ratio, its that so many items are worth so much gold and do so much more in comparison that its not worth getting anymore, especially since Trinity has been gutted to a state where only champions that can abuse the sheen proc will want it, meaning the crit isn't high enough to be a good stat. Its like buying 20 MR on a bruiser; you aren't really getting good use out of the stat, but that doesn't mean its unwanted entirely.

Long story short, it needs a late-game gold value so it can be buffed to have a late-game equivalent in stats. Either that, or some utility for bruisers to stop getting perma-kited with, since ADCs won't EVER want the item unless it'll be cost-inefficient on them, which is A-Okay in my book.

Alloni LionwardOct 10, 20142 votes

Very few bruisers actually use crit, but I do like the fact that some can crit. Garen, Shyvanna, Trundle, Renekton (assuming his W can use it) all work well with critical strike and get to use some niche items. Atmas impaler works well on all of these champions, for example. I don't think all bruisers should have critical chance, but I like the fact that some of them can; adds more flavor

Cloud PotatoOct 10, 20142 votes

Crit is a fine stat but it's hard to build on a melee champion. Many damage oriented melee champions opt for cheap, cost efficient damage items because the inherent risk of being melee means you can't afford to save up for big items unless you scale particularly well with them (Yasuo and Tryndamere for example, although even then IE isn't always a priority buy on them). This mostly cuts out Infinity Edge, which is certainly strong enough to justify its cost, but the bad build path really sucks.

Not getting an IE hurts the other Crit items' efficiency, but not badly enough to make them bad choices. The problem here is that you can't stack Crit very well, meaning that it's not a reliable source of damage. Add the fact that many melee champions don't get an opportunity to basic attack for extended periods of time and Crit doesn't look very good for damage output. Attack Speed isn't purchased much either, for similar reasons. AD and APen are just better since while they won't give you as much damage basic attacking than if you were to buy a mix of every stat, you'll typically be dealing damage with your abilities far more often.

336KMlmYm9Oct 10, 20142 votes

It's not that Crit doesn't do anything for bruisers, it's that the less reliant you are on your AAs to do damage the less useful it is. ADCs get the vast majority of their damage from AAs, and so so crit is very potent on them. Bruisers get a large portion of their damage from their abilities, of which crit contributes nothing at all. The also get damage from AAs, but because the gold cost of crit naturally had to be determined off the value it provides to it's main users crit, is effectively less efficient on bruisers.

Similarly, crit is a damage multiplier, so the more you're stacking AD/AS the more valuable crit becomes. Bruisers can't generally afford to go whole hog into offensive stats, as then they'd be MADCs and not Bruisers. As such Crit's value is further reduced. Instead the tend to prefer to put their damage investments more heavily weighted towards AD, which benefits both their AAs and abilities and always provides a reliable damage boost.

So Crit is helpful, just not as much as it's priced to be, and crit items tend to be less desirable.

SmokingPuffinOct 10, 20142 votes

Mechanically, crit will always be less good on bruisers than ADCs. Multiplicative scaling is better when you have more ways to multiply.

That means that if you want a crit item to ever be good for bruisers, you're gonna need to make it either melee only (so ADCs can't buy) or have defensive stats (so ADCs don't want to buy).

junglerboy16Oct 11, 20142 votes

That's where Atma's was, except the flaw is that any item with crit in it will usually either be favorable to nobody (Atma's, Executioner's calling) or extremely favorable to ADCs (IE, Stattic Shiv, PD). It is extremely hard to balance an item with ADC friendly stats towards bruisers unless it is made melee only (See Ravenous Hydra, what an ADC wouldn't do for a damage sustain AND AOE item! As such it has to be melee only, and ADCs are left with Runaan's instead)

ZulgainesOct 10, 20142 votes

The variable is critting. Not critting increases the chance for the next crit, critting resets the chance.

Increasing returns, that makes lower crit chance more cost efficient. The limit of 6 items is what makes this true in practice.

Aspie NunuOct 10, 20142 votes

I thought that if you were critting above your crit chance it would lower your chance for the next crit too, balancing it out. So like if you have 50% crit chance and you get a crit on the first hit, it lowers your chance for the next one, then if the next one isn't a crit it increases it to back to 50%. If you were to not crit again it would increase to let's say 75%.

ZulgainesOct 10, 20141 votes

I thought that if you were critting above your crit chance it would lower your chance for the next crit too, balancing it out. So like if you have 50% crit chance and you get a crit on the first hit, it lowers your chance for the next one, then if the next one isn't a crit it increases it to back to 50%. If you were to not crit again it would increase to let's say 75%.

Higher chance after non-crits is the only thing to be confirmed, but if it goes both ways then it would be more like... about 20% of your attacks are supposed crit, instead of a 20% chance each attack. As before, it's all about removing as much luck from the RNG as possible. It'd be like flipping a coin 30 times, in reality you might get 25 heads, 5 tails. But in LoL you should always get something close to 15-15.

If the system goes one way, low crit values get a buff, if it goes both ways luck is mitigated even further as a factor and it's just another stat. Not particularly worthless or overpowered. But in situations like Garen where his spin can minicrit a random 15% from Ghostblade for example would give him a fairly reliable power boost to his E and then a champion like Wu who relies heavily on auto attacks(It's half his kit) makes great use of even that small amount of crit chance as well, armor down, speed steroids, and bam. It all works together, even at low values.

junglerboy16Oct 11, 20141 votes

It is nothing so complex. Every time you attack, it is like it roles a set of dice: if you role a crit, you get bonus damage. The more crit chance you have, the more sides of the dice will have crit on them; NOTHING tracks how often you crit, you can get crits 5+ times in a row with only one crit rune, and it does not effect your crit chance for later attacks in any way.

Sire HippingtonOct 11, 20141 votes

it actually does use an psoidorandom algorythm for the crit chance. IF u have a 20% critchance, u start on ur first hi with a lower than 20% chance, and for each hit u do, the chance increases till u crit, which will atleast after reaching 100% happen. While it does not prevent multiple crits in a row, or multiple non-crits, it makes the chances for multiple crits lower while still remaining at the 20% in average. However, it crit still stays an randome event that can'T really be predicted if u go for a trade, especially at low crit numbers

PatMcGroynOct 10, 20141 votes

I like to get crit on bruisers when I can. I'm a big fan of Tri force + Ghostblade on Darius, because the mobility is so important on him, and it really does help to build some damage, because his abilities all scale with bonus AD.

I also normally get Ghostblade & Atma's on Garen. Tri Force + Atmas also seems like it would be good on the new Sion, although I haven't tried it out.

Report Team GGOct 10, 20141 votes

crit lacks stat efficiency. its about twice as expensive as attack speed which would mean it's better than attack speed @ 100% bonus attack speed as far as doing more damage goes.

which is why it's good on adcs only....cause they're the only ones who get 100%+ attack speed.

@ 100% bonus attack speed you have 200% total attack speed. meaning 1% attack speed increases your damage by 0.5%. while crit gives 1% bonus damage per point of crit it also suffers from the drawback of being twice as expensive.

and iirc onhits cant crit

BlazingSalvoOct 10, 20141 votes

Not to mention attack speed is wasted 100% of the time you're not attacking. :^) Which is relevant when, say, you're channeling a spell (Sion Q), mid animation (Jarvan E,Q,R), or just plane out of range (at 1000 range Varus Q, Ezreal Q can connect but not crit, while crit and attack speed are entirely wasted.)

Flat AD and Armor Pen are almost never wasted, while crit and attack speed are easily wasted. And you can't crit towers.

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20141 votes

The reason crit itemization sucks for bruisers is because, if they had proper itemization for crits, they would end up replacing marksmen and the current MADCs. You'd see Jarvan, Wukong, Jayce, Renekton, Darius...hell, new Sion would be un-fucking-stoppable if they had bruiser-specific crit itemization.

Entirely invalidating at least 20 champions just to let bruisers crit more is...not a good idea.

BlazingSalvoOct 10, 20142 votes

Except most MADCS have methods of reengage and invulnerability. Half of them are resourceless and all of them have methods of fighting you and reducing counterplay. And almost all of them require autoattack damage and have crit interactions except Fiora.

The bruisers you listed have long animations or channels that eliminate your ability to DPS with attack speed or crit - a Renekton, Wukong, Jayce, etc. are spending half their time comboing spells without even getting a chance to autoattack (disregarding Jayce ranged W).

Meanwhile, literally all the MADCs do is autoattack.

The example you gave - Sion - is just false. Sion is kitable. No sticking method or means of invulnerability = no DPS. Every second Sion spends channeling W or casting other spells is a second he's not autoattacking (and wasting attack speed as a stat). In a perfect world he builds 0% attack speed and just tries to channel Q as hard as he can between every autoattack timer window.

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20141 votes

Except most MADCS have methods of reengage and invulnerability. Half of them are resourceless and all of them have methods of fighting you and reducing counterplay. And almost all of them require autoattack damage and have crit interactions except Fiora.

The bruisers you listed have long animations or channels that eliminate your ability to DPS with attack speed or crit - a Renekton, Wukong, Jayce, etc. are spending half their time comboing spells without even getting a chance to autoattack (disregarding Jayce ranged W).

Meanwhile, literally all the MADCs do is autoattack.

Wukong has one spell that interrupts using basic attacks, his R, which is designed for team fight AoE DPS and a knockup. His E is a gap closer with an AS steroid, his Q is an attack reset with Armor Shred and bonus damage, and his W is not something he regularly uses in combat (and it doesn't interrupt him)

With Jayce, half of his abilities don't interrupt his attacks: Hammer form W, Cannon form W and E, and either form's R (yes, I will count his R, because it grants him bonus damage on his next attack). His Q in either form is meant to hit an escaping target (either closing the gap in Hammer form or firing a parting shot in Cannon form), and his Hammer E is an escape tool + anti-tank burst.

Renekton players always use Q between attacks, use his E to close the gap...the only spell that interrupts using basic attacks for damage is his W, which is a multi-attack that resets his attack timer. I guess the half-second casting time of his R could also count.

As a person who actually goes and plays these goddamn bruisers, each one of them bases a lot of their damage on basic attacks. The moment their rotation ends, it's all basic attacks. The only difference between these bruisers and most MADCs is that the bruisers have AD-scaling spells that aren't just attack resets, gap closers and steroids. Jayce has Lightning Field and Thundering Blow. Wukong has Decoy and Cyclone. Renekton has Cull the Meek. None of these invalidate the fact that they rely on basic attacks

The example you gave - Sion - is just false. Sion is kitable. No sticking method or means of invulnerability = no DPS. Every second Sion spends channeling W or casting other spells is a second he's not autoattacking (and wasting attack speed as a stat). In a perfect world he builds 0% attack speed and just tries to channel Q as hard as he can between every autoattack timer window.

"It doesn't work because you can kite him."

Implying that you can't kite other melee ADCs in any way, shape or form.

I haven't even gotten a chance to play the new Sion, and I know you've misunderstood his kit.

BlazingSalvoOct 10, 20141 votes

l0l Go ahead and build crit on Renekton and Sion. I'm sure they're better autoattack DPS champs than Yasuo and Master Yi.

JustMyBassCannonOct 11, 20141 votes

l0l Go ahead and build crit on Renekton and Sion. I'm sure they're better autoattack DPS champs than Yasuo and Master Yi.

Fucking imbecile.

I said that the reason Riot does not make Crit itemization for bruisers is because, if Crit itemization was designed for bruiser builds, they would take over League of Legends.

I'm not saying that Crit, right now, could work for a bruiser. I'm saying that it's intentional design. If Crit did have viable bruiser build paths, it would literally be League of Bruisers.

BlazingSalvoOct 11, 20141 votes

In a perfect world, tanky crit itemization means tanky marksmen or tankier ADs like Yi or Fiora, not higher pickrates of kitable bruisers.

JustMyBassCannonOct 11, 20141 votes

In a perfect world, tanky crit itemization means tanky marksmen or tankier ADs like Yi or Fiora, not higher pickrates of kitable bruisers.

Marksmen would mostly not use the designed-for-bruisers Crit items unless they had the same amount of AD and/or AS as the normal Marksman items, because their defense mechanics are kiting and Lifesteal, not resistances. They might consider picking up one as a 4th or 5th slot item, depending on the enemy team composition if their team isn't protecting them properly.

Yi, Fiora, Yasuo, Tryndamere, etc. would have access to defensive Crit items, and would use them more than Marksmen would. That said, Crit is not a laning phase stat for the majority of League's champions; most carries don't start taking Crit until after they have some damage for it to actually multiply their DPS instead of randomly increase one attack's damage. I could see Yasuo, maybe Tryndamere picking up one with defense based on their lane opponent.

If Riot were to design Bruiser items with Crit, Bruisers would have the DPS multiplier that they specifically intended for carries, meaning Bruisers could carry late game instead.

I don't know a simpler way to say it; Bruisers would carry the game if Bruisers had Crit. They have an easier laning phase than Marksmen and the melee carries.

TUfekAeySiOct 10, 20141 votes

TF + Atma's alone is pretty glassy on bruisers, that and Youmuu's means you have two non-boots slots, which just isn't really gonna happen. I think you're underestimating just how hard bruisers get shafted by the damage ranged ADCs and AD assassins put out at the minute.

Your point isn't a bad one (you don't need balls to walls crit for it to be a useful damage source) but the problem goes a lot deeper than just people's perceptions.

Critmaster GarenOct 10, 20141 votes

tell me about it.

Zeus JukemOct 10, 20141 votes

That IE phoenix udyr

Zionga0Oct 11, 20141 votes

Please. By that logic Avarice shouldn't exist, crit on Zeal shouldn't exist, crit on Trinity shouldn't exist. Pretty much all crit items save for IE and PD shouldn't exist. But they still do, somehow.