There is no circle jerk going on with Graves

Darth Sidiouss·Mar 12, 2017·93 votes·3,654 views

People are just sick and tired of his ass and want nerfs.

72 Comments

dunder killMar 12, 201721 votes

Jhin fourth then.

Troll for TrumpMar 12, 201720 votes

Sick of Yasuo LeeSin and Riven .

Once a ton of people hate the champs, they just get their opinions ignored, because it's "circlejerk"

LeetriMar 12, 201719 votes

It's called a circlejerk because people obsess over hating them even though they're mostly fine balance-wise, some people just find them annoying to play against. It could be a thread about Varus nerfs and people will still make it about Lee Sin.

Troll for TrumpMar 12, 20174 votes

That just means the hate is so great that they think people obsess over it. It's not just one person; there may be multiple complaints about yasuo spread over different threads, done by different people.

There's a ton of hate for those champs, because they're annoying and obnoxious to play against. It doesn't matter or not if they're balanced, they're still annoying, regardless of their state of balance, which is why people hate them so much.

And Riot hardly ever listens to the complaints, so it's reasonable that they be voiced more.

Lee Sin hasn't recieved nerfs in a while. Yasuo got nerfed, but of course, he got compensation buffs. The buffs were probably meant to make him not gutted as hard. But why not the same for other champs? Why don't they get compensated for all the hard nerfs? Why does yasuo have to always be in the spotlight and viable?

I don't think Riven has been complained as much as of late, but it's the same thing.

Riot keeps trying to make those champs constantly viable in every meta, without giving other champs the same treatment.

NuparuMar 12, 20175 votes

Well, if they're statistically fine balance wise but everyone still hates playing against them, that means either they have Akali syndrome (no one will like playing against her if she's remotely good regardless of how actually balanced she is) or, well, Riven syndrome (where the champion is designed so that when balanced, it takes 100% skill to make something happen, but when you reach the skill threshold per matchup, she takes control of it reliably and efficiently.)

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20172 votes

And the solutions to those are either a gutting (like Poppy, pre-rework Akali, Kassadin), or a rework.

Those champs shouldn't exist.

The Riven syndrome champs don't give you any say against them. You don't win lane or the game vs them based on how good you are or how you can play around them; it's based around how good the riven is.

Unhealthy champs need to be gutted until they can be reworked.

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20173 votes

{quoted}

And the solutions to those are either a gutting (like Poppy, pre-rework Akali, Kassadin), or a rework.

Those champs shouldn't exist.

The Riven syndrome champs don't give you any say against them. You don't win lane or the game vs them based on how good you are or how you can play around them; it's based around how good the riven is.

Unhealthy champs need to be gutted until they can be reworked.

That's not true, it's just not.

A good Quinn or Jayce won't ever lose to Riven. A good Renekton will close out the game before Riven can outscale him. A good Fiora will outduel her.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20172 votes

That's not true, it's just not.

A good riven will never lose to a quinn or jayce, or renek or Fiora, etc.

What I don't like about Riven is that there isn't really clear-cut to counter her, that's not something EXTREMELY generic like "play conservatively" or "build armor(which doesn't work against current non bruiser builds)"

A lot of the older champions fall into the same boat. In the past, there was the Renekton bar, and he since been kept pretty unviable.

Quinn has been made so she has an extremely weak lvl 6, as the power budget went into roaming. This is similar to how Talon will usually have weaker lane presence since a chunk of his power budget went into him being focused on roaming.

Fiora's a living minigame

Jayce, among many other transform champions, is based on each form having weaknesses/strengths. You don't really see that on him, and most unupdated transform champs share that problem.

Riot has stopped making transform champs because they've realized how much of a balancing nightmare they are.

NuparuMar 13, 20173 votes

Riven loses reliably to Quinn, Jayce, Renekton, and Fiora of equal skill levels.

Most skill-based characters do have a small pool of hard counters, but a lot of their other counters end up being skill-based and not really true hard counters like Pantheon.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20171 votes

I'm not talking about counters as in between champs, but better ways to counter them in-game. Something generic, and non-specific to champs.

NuparuMar 13, 20171 votes

But the entire point of a skirmisher is to have more versatility and ability to duel than other classes.

Besides, most of them do have counters. It's just that Lethality is so ridiculous at the moment that it doesn't really matter what you pick into them.

Troll for TrumpMar 14, 20171 votes

But the entire point of a skirmisher is to have more versatility and ability to duel than other classes.

Yeah, the entire class of skirmishers are problems.

Look at Riot's list of skirmishers

Fiora Riven MasterYi Tryndamere Jax Ekko

Yeah, all of them are pretty unhealthy, unless they're gutted or reworked.

Of that listing, only Riven really builds lethality.

And lethality isn't busted.. dmg as a whole is.

Mira Arya EntheMar 13, 20171 votes

A good riven will never lose to a quinn or jayce, or renek or Fiora, etc.

Yes they will, Adrian Riven, Viper, The Shy, BoxBox all have and do lose to those.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20172 votes

And I'm pretty sure a fair number of _____ have lost to them too

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's not true, it's just not.

A good riven will never lose to a quinn or jayce, or renek or Fiora, etc.

What I don't like about Riven is that there isn't really clear-cut to counter her, that's not something EXTREMELY generic like "play conservatively" or "build armor(which doesn't work against current non bruiser builds)"

A lot of the older champions fall into the same boat. In the past, there was the Renekton bar, and he since been kept pretty unviable.

Quinn has been made so she has an extremely weak lvl 6, as the power budget went into roaming. This is similar to how Talon will usually have weaker lane presence since a chunk of his power budget went into him being focused on roaming.

Fiora's a living minigame

Jayce, among many other transform champions, is based on each form having weaknesses/strengths. You don't really see that on him, and most unupdated transform champs share that problem.

Riot has stopped making transform champs because they've realized how much of a balancing nightmare they are.

/r/rivenmains

Ask the best.

Quinn's early is fine, she's ranged which already gives her an edge. Sure Jayce is stronger, but that's because he's got no roaming. Quinn is still fine, however.

Not in teamfights - there's she's a dead minigame.

Jayce has very few weaknesses in each form - his weakness, is that when he Transforms, he loses access to half his abilities for ~6 seconds.

Mira Arya EntheMar 13, 20174 votes

Except Riven is not unhealthy, and anybody who thinks so hasn't actually watched high tier laning phases entirely, only some montages so they can yell how bullshit she is.

This bullshit lie people spout about not having any agency vs Riven comes from people who have no understanding of when powerspikes happen, how to control waves, what counters what and how teamplay works. There is a reason the only people who play Riven in high tier are one tricks, which drives up her win rate. Because as Viper said when he quite Riven and moved to Fiora, Camille and Jayce. It takes far too much effort to make Riven as effective as champions who take half the skill.

Riven has many laning counters who bully her, such as Renekton, Fiora, Jayce, Kennen, Irelia just to name a few. And many matchups where if she doesn't win hardcore her enemy will still be more relevant late game, like just about every tank, Maokai, Poppy and Nautilus to name a couple. And yes, this is in the higher level of play vs the best Riven players. They don't just win vs Riven they bully her, in lane, out of farm and even exp range on some of them.

Unhealthy champions are ones with non-synergistic kits, and/or ones who are binary and either are completely worthless due to number tuning or too busted due to number tuning. Champions like Garen, Mordekaiser, Udyr.

Healthy champions have options that let them have versatility in play, and can be shut down by superior play. Riven certainly has options, and whether that feeding noob Riven on your team or when Adrian gets countered and ganked in lane, she can be shut down harder than most champions in the game.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20172 votes

But this game isn't Dota, and is also balanced around soloQ.

Rather, it's largely balanced around the majority, and the majority of players aren't diamond.

And the majority of players hate Riven. The only circlejerky champ that's appeared in LCS frequently is Lee Sin, and he's falling off there for the reasons you mentioned w/ Riven.

If you base it around high elo, and buff Riven, then you're shitting on all the below diamond playerbase.

plat's a mixed bag tbh.

Mira Arya EntheMar 13, 20174 votes

Except Riven performs worse in low ELO than high ELO, there goes your entire argument...

Down from 54% win rate in Diamond to 45% in bronze. Also Riot balances for Plat+ and LCS, not the majority who are silver or lower.

yay nibbersMar 13, 20174 votes

Yasuo main here. What compesation buffs are we talking about here? The one where Yasuo now has to build almost 400 AD from items to match his old E damage? The one that's still a nerf because nobody builds that much AD, and even if they did they won't have it until 30-40 minutes into the game?

This is what people mean when they say people obsess over these champs and circlejerk. The whiners never think about the champs they hate, the state they're in, what changes have or haven't been made to them or even how to deal with them. Maybe they'd be less annoying if people would learn how to play against them instead of bitching about them on the Boards.

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Windy Ronin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wwPpo76i,comment-id=0006000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-13T00:09:07.010+0000)

Yasuo main here. What compesation buffs are we talking about here? The one where Yasuo now has to build almost 400 AD from items to match his old E damage? The one that's still a nerf because nobody builds that much AD, and even if they did they won't have it until 30-40 minutes into the game?

This is what people mean when they say people obsess over these champs and circlejerk. The whiners never think about the champs they hate, the state they're in, what changes have or haven't been made to them or even how to deal with them. Maybe they'd be less annoying if people would learn how to play against them instead of bitching about them on the Boards.

Hey, dude, I wanna ask you something.

Do you think mid lane Yasuo is a problem?

I kind of do, because all Yasuo really needs to do is Wind Wall at the right time. That's because it's incredibly easy for him to Q once on the minion wave, because unlike top laners, mid laners generally can't engage on him and zone him from the minions as hard. Then, he E+Q's forward, E's forward again or walks into E range of the enemy, E+third Q, auto, ult, and by then they're practically dead, at least a flash burnt.

Compared to top lane Yas, where most of the time, he needs to kite his enemy around minions until he gets his third Q, then hit his third Q (most top laners have a dash which might be able to be used to dodge it), then ult, and then he'll barely win the resulting duel? He's also very liable to being engaged on before he gets into range of the minions, and also has a very hard time fighting tanks early game. Top lane Yasuo takes a lot more skill, and requires really good Yasuo mechanics to do well, while mid lane Yasuo is mostly just knowing how to E+Q and having good reactions for Wind Wall.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20173 votes

Mid lane Yasuo is more fastpaced, and you are punished for mistakes a lot harder.

And no, not all top laners have a dash. Most top laners DON'T have a dash. Most top laners are melee, so you don't get zoned by ranged champs, because they aren't there. You aren't obligated to use Q to cs so you don't fall behind in creeps like you do in mid.

With mobility, most of the time you can just spam e e e e e EQ e e e e ee e e eee away.

In top lane you have more mobility and range than most things. You just prance around, farm from range easily(without any effective means of being punished), and wait until you inevitably outscale them, or until the jgler comes.

That's assuming it's a poor matchup. If it's a good matchup, you can bully them and still outscale them.

The only way you can beat Yas 1v1 is if you do burst dmg, have some tankiness, and have mobility. And preferably some cc.

He can basically shit on all the commonly played champs. The counter champs are still won or lost depending on the Yasuo, rather than the player. A decent Darius, for instance, can beat a bad Yasuo. A good Darius can beat a decent yasuo and curbstomp a bad one. But a good yasuo will beat a good darius

oops

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Mid lane Yasuo is more fastpaced, and you are punished for mistakes a lot harder.

And no, not all top laners have a dash. Most top laners DON'T have a dash. Most top laners are melee, so you don't get zoned by ranged champs, because they aren't there. You aren't obligated to use Q to cs so you don't fall behind in creeps like you do in mid.

With mobility, most of the time you can just spam e e e e e EQ e e e e ee e e eee away.

In top lane you have more mobility and range than most things. You just prance around, farm from range easily(without any effective means of being punished), and wait until you inevitably outscale them, or until the jgler comes.

That's assuming it's a poor matchup. If it's a good matchup, you can bully them and still outscale them.

The only way you can beat Yas 1v1 is if you do burst dmg, have some tankiness, and have mobility. And preferably some cc.

He can basically shit on all the commonly played champs. The counter champs are still won or lost depending on the Yasuo, rather than the player. A decent Darius, for instance, can beat a bad Yasuo. A good Darius can beat a decent yasuo and curbstomp a bad one. But a good yasuo will beat a good darius

oops

But you aren't, because mid lane mages don't do that much damage early game. Also, Wind Wall blocks their autos.

That's simply not true... most juggernauts don't have a dash, but most tanks do.

That's not how it works dude.

No, but you don't have enough damage or tank stats to actually fight most things, especially not in their minions (and you need to be in their minions in order to have mobility). You can be easily punished by a Maokai pressing W on you, then slapping you in the face while you do very little damage to him.

Your level 1-2 is stronger than most, but lvl 3 up you usually get outscaled hard. Yas doesn't benefit as much from levels as most tanks and fighters, it seems.

Yas has few good match ups, however... most champions simply out damage him.

Or DPS. Also, it's not like most fighters don't have those things. Wu's got all of them. Xin also has all of them. Hell, even Garen has all of them once he gets his Sunfire Cape.

That's simply not true... Fiora will fuck Yas most of the time - same with Riven. Garen will lose to Yas until he gets Sunfires, and then he'll run at Yas with Q and simply out-fight him, and keep him away from minions while regenning with his passive so he doesn't get poked down too much. Xin and similar is a skill match up, but obviously that's dependent on Yas because XIn's not gonna do much besides E+W+auto+Q+autos (or however his combo is). Yas needs to kite him through his minions, which is most times very difficult because Xin will engage on him when he's not near the minions, stack up 3 Q's, then hit the knock up on Xin, ult, and fight him. Pre 6 he needs to stay inside his minions and fight smartly, and poke. Late game it depends whether he's squishy enough to be oneshot by XIn, but since Xin isn't full damage most of the time he'll usually be fine if he has a Q stack or kites correctly. Same with all champions similar to Xin.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20171 votes

But you aren't, because mid lane mages don't do that much damage early game. Also, Wind Wall blocks their autos.

Wind wall isn't up 24/7, and that depends on the mage. Most mages can do a fair amount early game. They won't oneshot combo you, but a considerable chunk of your hp.

That's simply not true... most juggernauts don't have a dash, but most tanks do.

Implying all top laners are tanks?

That's not how it works dude.

It is, if you've played Yas before.

No, but you don't have enough damage or tank stats to actually fight most things, especially not in their minions (and you need to be in their minions in order to have mobility). You can be easily punished by a Maokai pressing W on you, then slapping you in the face while you do very little damage to him.

In top lane you have more mobility and range than most things. You just prance around, farm from range easily(without any effective means of being punished), and wait until you inevitably outscale them, or until the jgler comes.

The former applies here

Your level 1-2 is stronger than most, but lvl 3 up you usually get outscaled hard. Yas doesn't benefit as much from levels as most tanks and fighters, it seems.

Yes and no. Lvl 3 is strong in mid-lane, but not top lane. Level 1-2 can often decide the course of the entire laning phase. He does benefit from levels less, but the game isn't all about levels. He outscales the tanks hard with items. Juggernauts are the only ones who don't really have issues with him until actual lategame.

Yas has few good match ups, however... most champions simply out damage him.

He can just dodge most of the dmg through some part of his kit. The thing is, if you have a good yas, they will shit on a good (insert). Because Yas just has a higher skill ceiling. If you pick yas, and you face off against someone of equal skill level, you have an advantage just for picking yasuo.

Or DPS. Also, it's not like most fighters don't have those things. Wu's got all of them. Xin also has all of them. Hell, even Garen has all of them once he gets his Sunfire Cape.

Ok, first of all, Wu's dps is bad. He's basically an assassin. Yasuo combines moderate/good dps + tankiness+sustain+mobility to make you win trades. If there were only two champions, and nothing else in the environment, they could win, but that won't happen in lane.

That's simply not true... Fiora will fuck Yas most of the time - same with Riven. Garen will lose to Yas until he gets Sunfires, and then he'll run at Yas with Q and simply out-fight him, and keep him away from minions while regenning with his passive so he doesn't get poked down too much. Xin and similar is a skill match up, but obviously that's dependent on Yas because XIn's not gonna do much besides E+W+auto+Q+autos (or however his combo is). Yas needs to kite him through his minions, which is most times very difficult because Xin will engage on him when he's not near the minions, stack up 3 Q's, then hit the knock up on Xin, ult, and fight him. Pre 6 he needs to stay inside his minions and fight smartly, and poke. Late game it depends whether he's squishy enough to be oneshot by XIn, but since Xin isn't full damage most of the time he'll usually be fine if he has a Q stack or kites correctly. Same with all champions similar to Xin.

Fiora vs yas is at 51% for Fiora.. Riven vs yas is at 49.92% for Riven. No idea where you got Garen from as a "common pick." Garen has a 50.65% WR vs Yasuo. None of these are anything really flashy. Yas shouldn't be taking dmg from Garen either, especially since he rushed a sunfire's cape. It'll probably be a farm lane until Yasuo outscales Garen. When was Xin top common?

There's basically no data on Xin top online..

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wind wall isn't up 24/7, and that depends on the mage. Most mages can do a fair amount early game. They won't oneshot combo you, but a considerable chunk of your hp.

You only need to Wind Wall when going in, they only have 3 abilities, after all.

Implying all top laners are tanks?

As if most fighters/bruisers don't have gapclosers as well.

It is, if you've played Yas before.

But it isn't, though.

The former applies here

Nope.

Yes and no. Lvl 3 is strong in mid-lane, but not top lane. Level 1-2 can often decide the course of the entire laning phase. He does benefit from levels less, but the game isn't all about levels. He outscales the tanks hard with items. Juggernauts are the only ones who don't really have issues with him until actual lategame.

That's exactly what I said dude. Problem is, most tanks severely outdamage him early game. He can't deal with early armor stacking because his armor pen relies on crits and ult.

He can just dodge most of the dmg through some part of his kit. The thing is, if you have a good yas, they will shit on a good (insert). Because Yas just has a higher skill ceiling. If you pick yas, and you face off against someone of equal skill level, you have an advantage just for picking yasuo.

Ok, like how? His Wind Wall is useless, his E is either useless because it's telegraphed as fuck or their stuff is point+click/big AoE anyway.

Ok, first of all, Wu's dps is bad. He's basically an assassin. Yasuo combines moderate/good dps + tankiness+sustain+mobility to make you win trades. If there were only two champions, and nothing else in the environment, they could win, but that won't happen in lane.

He's not tanky though. I have no idea where you got that from.

Fiora vs yas is at 51% for Fiora.. Riven vs yas is at 49.92% for Riven. No idea where you got Garen from as a "common pick." Garen has a 50.65% WR vs Yasuo. None of these are anything really flashy. Yas shouldn't be taking dmg from Garen either, especially since he rushed a sunfire's cape. It'll probably be a farm lane until Yasuo outscales Garen. When was Xin top common?

Winning the game isn't about winning the lane... this is top lane, remember? It means literally nothing on the outcome of the game.

Fiora is a hard counter to Yas, ask any Yas or Fiora main. Same with Riven, as long as their good. Garen simply fucks Yas because of his juggernaut playstyle, and because he can actually catch Yas because Yas's mobility revolves around enemy minions. I'm not talking about common picks, I'm talking from experience. Farm lane is best case scenario for Yasuo - most likely he'll be cowering under tower and getting 0 CS because Garen is freezing.

There's basically no data on Xin top online..

Then play the match up.

Troll for TrumpMar 14, 20171 votes

You only need to Wind Wall when going in, they only have 3 abilities, after all. Need to save it for when they go in

As if most fighters/bruisers don't have gapclosers as well.

They really don't. Nothing major enough that can keep pace with Yasuo.

That's exactly what I said dude. Problem is, most tanks severely outdamage him early game. He can't deal with early armor stacking because his armor pen relies on crits and ult.

They don't stack armor at 1-3. If he can't kill the enemy because they built armor, they can't kill him either, because they built dmg. If you try to poke him, he sustains himself, because Warlord's. Yas is fine with a even farming lane; he can play safe, farm from range, sustain, have more dps than you, and outscale you.

Ok, like how? His Wind Wall is useless, his E is either useless because it's telegraphed as fuck or their stuff is point+click/big AoE anyway.

Because he can just spam it and play mindgames with you. Oh, you think he's going to E onto that miinion so you aim it where he lands, but he dashes again. Ok, so you predict he'll dash twice and aim at that 2nd minion, but he dashed once or three times. It's based on the Yas, not you. Unless there aren't any minions, all skillshots or delayed abilities are shots in the dark.

He's not tanky though. I have no idea where you got that from.

He is, in the fights he picks. He will get blown up in teamfights, but he gets the passive shield, lifesteal from warlord's/usually one healing item, and dmg reduc from PD.

It's the same as Graves. He basically is unkillable in whatever fights he picks; he just heals off of the ones that build tank and don't have enough dmg, and he can blow up the ones that are squishy without tankiness. The best way to deal with both is having a mix of tank and dmg, which is the juggernaut.

Winning the game isn't about winning the lane... this is top lane, remember? It means literally nothing on the outcome of the game.

Fiora is a hard counter to Yas, ask any Yas or Fiora main. Same with Riven, as long as their good. Garen simply fucks Yas because of his juggernaut playstyle, and because he can actually catch Yas because Yas's mobility revolves around enemy minions. I'm not talking about common picks, I'm talking from experience. Farm lane is best case scenario for Yasuo - most likely he'll be cowering under tower and getting 0 CS because Garen is freezing.

And... that argument is now pointless, because you're throwing away quantitative data, and using experience. If it's a farm lane, Yas won't get 0 cs. Garen can't hurt Yas, and Yas can't hurt him. Yas is fine with that.

FIora doesn't really counter Yas. Riven probably does. I don't know why she actually has a <50% winrate. If it's because of the game dragging on, Riven honestly is better in teamfights.

Then play the match up.

rofl

Asayake 5150glowMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted} They really don't. Nothing major enough that can keep pace with Yasuo.

That's why the only way Yasuo wins after level 4 or so is by kiting. Which is dangerous as hell because minions will kill him.

They don't stack armor at 1-3. If he can't kill the enemy because they built armor, they can't kill him either, because they built dmg. If you try to poke him, he sustains himself, because Warlord's. Yas is fine with a even farming lane; he can play safe, farm from range, sustain, have more dps than you, and outscale you.

Nope, but they do stack armor at lvl 5+. Tanks generally go for a Sunfire rush, after all. Oh, and that's not true at all. Did you completely miss all the QQ about full tanks doing too much damage? Sunfires does a lot, too. You don't need to poke him. Early game, Yasuo has less dps than you. If you don't believe me, then there's nothing for me to say- the match up all depends whether or not Yasuo can win a flat out 1v1. Which I may not be the best judge of, because most Yasuo's I've faced run Warlords and thus don't do as much damage as a Yasuo with Fervor would.

Because he can just spam it and play mindgames with you. Oh, you think he's going to E onto that miinion so you aim it where he lands, but he dashes again. Ok, so you predict he'll dash twice and aim at that 2nd minion, but he dashed once or three times. It's based on the Yas, not you. Unless there aren't any minions, all skillshots or delayed abilities are shots in the dark.

His E is a fairly slow dash. You can use your abilities while he's dashing. It's also a certain length. There's no need to predict.

He is, in the fights he picks. He will get blown up in teamfights, but he gets the passive shield, lifesteal from warlord's/usually one healing item, and dmg reduc from PD.

That's mid-late game. I'm talking early game when all he's got is a Zeal or BF sword, and Warlords. Hell, now Warlords got ruined for his early as well.

It's the same as Graves. He basically is unkillable in whatever fights he picks; he just heals off of the ones that build tank and don't have enough dmg, and he can blow up the ones that are squishy without tankiness. The best way to deal with both is having a mix of tank and dmg, which is the juggernaut.

Except that's only late game because Yasuo doesn't build armor pen of any sort. Mid game, he needs to get his ult off for any chance of fighting a medium damage tank such as Nautilus. And that is pretty damn difficult. Also, late game Yas flat out outdamages most juggernauts. Burst is the way to go, 100%. Burst and CC.

And... that argument is now pointless, because you're throwing away quantitative data, and using experience. If it's a farm lane, Yas won't get 0 cs. Garen can't hurt Yas, and Yas can't hurt him. Yas is fine with that. It's not a farm lane, that's what I'm saying. Garen will zone Yas from the minions and freeze it. Yas can try to hurt him, but if he does, he'll eat a Decisive Strike and a faceful of Judgemeent, and probably die. FIora doesn't really counter Yas. Riven probably does. I don't know why she actually has a <50% winrate. If it's because of the game dragging on, Riven honestly is better in teamfights.

Yes, she does. Fiora is too tanky for Yasuo to burst without ulting, so he's reliant on hitting that. Fiora's Q is amazing for dodging Steel Tempest's, repositioning when Yasuo E's, and juking tornadoes. Riposte can also be used for blocking Tornados, although that's a mind game. Although Riposte will never hit Yasuo because of his Wind Wall, with good reactions, Yasuo will never get an ult off on Fiora, and well, the Grand Duelist with everything vs Yasuo with only Q, autos, and E... Not to mention that Fiora can literally nearly oneshot Yasuo with heer burst combo if even slightly ahead. Riven's also far better in a 1v1. Yasuo needs to outplay her for any chance of winning the duel.

rofl

Whatever.

Troll for TrumpMar 15, 20171 votes

That's why the only way Yasuo wins after level 4 or so is by kiting. Which is dangerous as hell because minions will kill him.

Yasuo skill problem, not anything you control.

Nope, but they do stack armor at lvl 5+. Tanks generally go for a Sunfire rush, after all. Oh, and that's not true at all. Did you completely miss all the QQ about full tanks doing too much damage? Sunfires does a lot, too. You don't need to poke him. Early game, Yasuo has less dps than you. If you don't believe me, then there's nothing for me to say- the match up all depends whether or not Yasuo can win a flat out 1v1. Which I may not be the best judge of, because most Yasuo's I've faced run Warlords and thus don't do as much damage as a Yasuo with Fervor would.

You were talking about armor stacking at 1-3. "Did you completely miss all the QQ..." That's the past. Meaning it's been ostly fixed.

Wrong. Early game yas will win trades. If you actually read what I wrote, you'd understand why. It's not just because of dps; although he does have that, mobility, wind wall, and his passive decide how long the trades are, when they'll occur, etc. Most of the time, when you land a skillshhot or delayed ability, it's purely because their yasuo is bad. Never because of your skill, you just happened to hit him and he just happened to not dash.

His E is a fairly slow dash. You can use your abilities while he's dashing. It's also a certain length. There's no need to predict.

Yes there is. If you aren't even predicting at all, that means you're aiming where he was before he dashed. So, yeah. You aren't hitting that.

He uses E multiple times. It's not just one minion in the lane. He dashes in, then dashes out. Against melee, he spams Q to push the wave, and you use your ability to clear the wave. He then goes in.

Go in when Yas's Q is down? Not likely, he'll dash away, or, see you coming, watch you get minion blocked, and just walk away easily.

That's mid-late game. I'm talking early game when all he's got is a Zeal or BF sword, and Warlords. Hell, now Warlords got ruined for his early as well.

Not quite. Warlord's healing is still healing, allowing him to live longer than he should.

Except that's only late game because Yasuo doesn't build armor pen of any sort. Mid game, he needs to get his ult off for any chance of fighting a medium damage tank such as Nautilus. And that is pretty damn difficult. Also, late game Yas flat out outdamages most juggernauts. Burst is the way to go, 100%. Burst and CC.

It's difficult if he's the only one with a knockup, which shouldn't be happening.

Yas does not out damage most juggernauts, until the very very lategame where everyone's 6 items. Until then, he doesn't do enough. Burst is bad, because you're reliant on landing abilities on a hypermobile semitanky skirmisher with wind wall. Most burst isn't melee, but the ones that are melee bursters either get REALLY screwed over by windwall, or are squishy themselves and get blown up by yas because they won't have armor.

Yes, she does. Fiora is too tanky for Yasuo to burst without ulting, so he's reliant on hitting that. Fiora's Q is amazing for dodging Steel Tempest's, repositioning when Yasuo E's, and juking tornadoes. Riposte can also be used for blocking Tornados, although that's a mind game. Although Riposte will never hit Yasuo because of his Wind Wall, with good reactions, Yasuo will never get an ult off on Fiora, and well, the Grand Duelist with everything vs Yasuo with only Q, autos, and E... Not to mention that Fiora can literally nearly oneshot Yasuo with heer burst combo if even slightly ahead. Riven's also far better in a 1v1. Yasuo needs to outplay her for any chance of winning the duel.

Fiora isn't too tanky early. Once you do get to later on, Yas has enough dmg reduc/healing to sustain her fights.

If you're using Q to dodge steel tempest, you aren't using it to proc the vital, meaning the CD isn't being cut in half, and, 99% of the time, you will lose the trade because of that.

Fiora's Q isn't something you spam like Yasuo's Q. You have to be precise with using it to land vitals.

Riposte blocking isn't a mindgame except for the ones where he jumps directly on you. The projectile from ranged Q is easily riposte'd. Although doing that keeps you still for so long he can get out before the animation is even finished.

Yes, Yasuo can beat the watered down Fiora with Q autos and E early game. And, if yasuo is slightly ahead, Fiora becomes a useless sack of potatoes.

Riven should be better than Yas 1v1. Riven should be better at teamfights. I'm not arguing against that, I agree with it. The <50% winrate indicates that this notion isn't truly accurate. There are many possible reasons why, but, still. You cannot confidently call Riven a Yasuo counter.

Asayake 5150glowMar 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo skill problem, not anything you control.

Aye, but if he hasn't got that skill, he's easy meat,

You were talking about armor stacking at 1-3. "Did you completely miss all the QQ..." That's the past. Meaning it's been ostly fixed.

Erh... not sure where you got that idea - I said Yasuo would win lane until after level 3.

Wrong. Early game yas will win trades. If you actually read what I wrote, you'd understand why. It's not just because of dps; although he does have that, mobility, wind wall, and his passive decide how long the trades are, when they'll occur, etc. Most of the time, when you land a skillshhot or delayed ability, it's purely because their yasuo is bad. Never because of your skill, you just happened to hit him and he just happened to not dash.

Wind Wall does nothing
His mobility merely just makes him take more damage from the minions he's dashing through most of the time.
Or you could decide when the engages on by... engaging on him? You don't have to play passive and scared and let him take ideal trades.
Or you saw the, while not telegraphed, set distance and fairly slow dash happen? You can use any not-delayed skillshot on him during his dash at the place which he'll arive

Yes there is. If you aren't even predicting at all, that means you're aiming where he was before he dashed. So, yeah. You aren't hitting that.

Why the hell would you aim where he was before he dashed? His dash is a set distance - you know exactly where he'll end it.

He uses E multiple times. It's not just one minion in the lane. He dashes in, then dashes out. Against melee, he spams Q to push the wave, and you use your ability to clear the wave. He then goes in.

Or maybe you could, you know, play around his mobility around minions and reposition yourself so he can't fuck you like that? If he's spamming Q to push the wave, why would you waste your abilities to push back? Just back off and respect that Yasuo is stronger than you levels 1-2. Miss a few CS if it means not taking 300 damage. After that, you should be able to destroy any Yasuo who spams Q's to push the wave - Yasuo's mobility, kiting, and reliable knock ups rely on there being minions for him to dash to and Q. If he clears the entire wave, he can't kite you, and thus you'll outdamage him as almost every tank, juggernaut, or fighter who isn't weak early.

Go in when Yas's Q is down? Not likely, he'll dash away, or, see you coming, watch you get minion blocked, and just walk away easily.

That's where you're wrong.

You see, Yasuo cannot dash away. He can only dash to minions, or you. Your minions are in front of him, and if he dashed to them, he'd be dashing into you. If he dashes to you and I'm assuming you're not behind him for some reason, he also won't be dashing away. By 'Q is down', I probably meant when his third Q is down (when he has 0 stacks). Getting hit by that usually loses you the trade. Plus, you got a gap closer to avoid minion block.

Not quite. Warlord's healing is still healing, allowing him to live longer than he should.

It's now 1% at level 1. It's shit in lane.

It's difficult if he's the only one with a knockup, which shouldn't be happening.

That's exactly what happens in laning phase. Because top lane is a 1v1 unless a jungler comes.

Yas does not out damage most juggernauts, until the very very lategame where everyone's 6 items. Until then, he doesn't do enough. Burst is bad, because you're reliant on landing abilities on a hypermobile semitanky skirmisher with wind wall. Most burst isn't melee, but the ones that are melee bursters either get REALLY screwed over by windwall, or are squishy themselves and get blown up by yas because they won't have armor.

Exactly - Yasuo doesn't outdamage most juggernauts. Hell, even an early game Nasus would win if he juked 1 Q and if Yas stood in the Spirit Fire. Ok, Nasus can beat a lot of champions if they stand in his Spirit Fire, even early game. But you get the point - early game Nasus is the weakest juggernaut.

Fiora isn't too tanky early. Once you do get to later on, Yas has enough dmg reduc/healing to sustain her fights.

No, early game is more of a skill match up. Later on, sustain is not enough to stop yourself from being bursted for 70% of your health in an instant. The other 30% follows fairly quickly, because of the crit and second Q.

If you're using Q to dodge steel tempest, you aren't using it to proc the vital, meaning the CD isn't being cut in half, and, 99% of the time, you will lose the trade because of that.

Clearly you don't play FIora - you only need to hit a target with Q to cut the CD by 60%. Also, why wouldn't I be using it to proc the Vital as well? The Vital is to his side, or behind him, so unless he throws his Q to the side (which wouldn't hit you if you decided not to Q), then you would be juking his Q and also proccing the Vital.

Mid-late game, it's not about trades. Fiora can easily 100-0 Yasuo because Yasuo has no dissengage. Skill decides who dies first - but it's heavily in Fiora's favor.

Fiora's Q isn't something you spam like Yasuo's Q. You have to be precise with using it to land vitals.

Those Vitals are huge, are you kidding me? Hell, Fiora's Q is much less spammable than Yasuos - unless you're against a tank, you'll still do most of the damage even if you don't hit a Vital. Yasuo's Q can be easily dodged by mobile targets, or even just those who know how to juke (early game, the cast time goes down late game). Dodging Yasuo's Q is literally 70% of his counterplay. The other 30% is not being kited, but being kited doesn't matter if he can't land his third Q on you and ult. Hell, I've dodged Yas's E+3rdQ by walking into him as Vel'Koz.

Riposte blocking isn't a mindgame except for the ones where he jumps directly on you. The projectile from ranged Q is easily riposte'd. Although doing that keeps you still for so long he can get out before the animation is even finished.

Yeah, and he should always be trying to jump on you to bait out your Riposte because otherwise he stands no chance.

Plus, didn't I just tell you - Yasuo can't dissengage? Even if you're minions are behind him, your Q CD reducing by 60% on hits (I'm assuming his minions are also behind him, if yours are) mean's you'll easily catch him. Then you get ~5 seconds before he gets another third Q, and he is almost harmless in those 5 seconds.

Yes, Yasuo can beat the watered down Fiora with Q autos and E early game. And, if yasuo is slightly ahead, Fiora becomes a useless sack of potatoes.

Only early game Nope, nope, and nope. As long as Yasuo can't kill Fiora with a couple auto's and a single Q, Fiora will heavily outdamage him post level 6 due to actually having an ult.

Riven should be better than Yas 1v1. Riven should be better at teamfights. I'm not arguing against that, I agree with it. The <50% winrate indicates that this notion isn't truly accurate. There are many possible reasons why, but, still. You cannot confidently call Riven a Yasuo counter.

But I can, because I main Riven. Ask /r/RIvenmains if you disagree - there's Diamonds, Masters, and the odd Challenger over there. Even Adrian visits occasionally.

Dshield start Tabi rush goes a long, long way against Yasuo. If you don't do that, you'll have a much harder time against him.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20173 votes

This is what people mean when they say people obsess over these champs and circlejerk. The whiners never think about the champs they hate, the state they're in, what changes have or haven't been made to them or even how to deal with them. Maybe they'd be less annoying if people would learn how to play against them instead of bitching about them on the Boards.

"Once a ton of people hate the champs, they just get their opinions ignored, because it's "circlejerk""

This right here is an example of what I said earlier. Yes, I'd already thought of that. Did you read what I wrote earlier?

Yasuo got nerfed, but of course, he got compensation buffs. The buffs were probably meant to make him not gutted as hard.

He got nerfed, but he still got compensation buffs. Most other champs that were in the position Yas was in would just get the base dmg nerf, and nothing else.

It's how they almost never change a champ that people keep asking for change on. They rarely touch Yasuo, and when they do, they add compensation buffs.

This is what people mean when they say people obsess over these champs and circlejerk. The whiners never think about the champs they hate, the state they're in, what changes have or haven't been made to them or even how to deal with them. Maybe they'd be less annoying if people would learn how to play against them instead of bitching about them on the Boards.

Anti-circlejerk circlejerk, right here.

People know how to play against Yasuo, the methods don't work well.

That's one of the major reasons why he's hated. You lose or win vs Yas based on how good he is, not on how good you are.

NuparuMar 13, 20171 votes

The methods work extremely well, what the fuck?

Like, Yasuo is the least concerning of the Duelists/Skirmishers that everyone complains about. He has clear options to be dealt with (Ninja Tabi are insanely good early + doran shield to completely negate his early damage, then armor if you're a tank like randuins or equal damage if you're a skirmisher like Riven or simply normal mage items if you're a mage that he doesn't counter) and has clear cut moments of strength (ult actively granting armor pen and his shield is up) and weakness (windwall is down, no minions to dash to...)

Troll for TrumpMar 14, 20171 votes

Not really. He's the most concerning because, besides riven, he has the highest carry potential.

Build armor is something generic, and nothing unique. He doesn't need the ult until lategame, and it's cooldown is so low it's rarely down. His shield is always up because he won't try anything remotely risky without it. And many champs do not have the option to go in on a champ when they're playing defensive. Mostly, they have to walk up to them, and Yas can just move away then.

No minions to dash to... in lane?

The only time he has no minions is if he gets caught in the jg, which is HIS mistake, and not something you can really force

Or, he's shoving the lane, and your jgler comes to help. Again, that's not something you do, that's the jgler. You won't be able to initiate it because he can see you walking up to him and will just walk away(doesn't need to dash)

Asayake 5150glowMar 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That just means the hate is so great that they think people obsess over it. It's not just one person; there may be multiple complaints about yasuo spread over different threads, done by different people.

There's a ton of hate for those champs, because they're annoying and obnoxious to play against. It doesn't matter or not if they're balanced, they're still annoying, regardless of their state of balance, which is why people hate them so much.

And Riot hardly ever listens to the complaints, so it's reasonable that they be voiced more.

Lee Sin hasn't recieved nerfs in a while. Yasuo got nerfed, but of course, he got compensation buffs. The buffs were probably meant to make him not gutted as hard. But why not the same for other champs? Why don't they get compensated for all the hard nerfs? Why does yasuo have to always be in the spotlight and viable?

I don't think Riven has been complained as much as of late, but it's the same thing.

Riot keeps trying to make those champs constantly viable in every meta, without giving other champs the same treatment.

Wait what were the compensation buffs?

BIH DiamondMar 13, 20171 votes

How is Lee annoying to play against? He's usually a free win below plat. I rather play against a Lee every game rather than cancerous shit like Zac/WW that takes 0 skill and just jumps into 5 people like an idiot

Troll for TrumpMar 14, 20171 votes

I don't personally hate Lee, and do like playing him(not a main and haven't played him in a while), but he was always complained about a lot, especially in earlier seasons. It's been happening since release, and, even when he's not doing hot, a lot of people hate dealing with his mobility.

Imperial JapanMar 12, 20171 votes

Jup

Fashion MageMar 12, 20175 votes

Isn't the definition of circlejerk a bunch of people blowing off each other's views, thus resulting in the minority's views to be disregarded regardless if they're right or wrong?

Troll for TrumpMar 12, 20173 votes

Yeah, and now there's the "anti-circlejerk" circlejerk, where people dismiss the complaints as circlejerk in a circlejerk-ish mannerism.

Gregor GysiMar 12, 20171 votes

You are right and this is an "anti anti-circlejerk circlejerk".

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20171 votes

Yeah, but there's no one really voicing any anti anti-circlejerk circlejerk. If it were popular, than you could call it circlejerk, but it's not.

The most popular ones are just regular circlejerk(please nerf X) and anti-circlejerk(can we stop complaining about Aatrox and jumping on the bandwagon etc etc).

If it did become circlejerk, then there'd be anti anti anti-circlejerk circlejerk and then anti^3 anti-circlejerk circlejerk. Basically till infinite.

But they aren't circlejerks, until more people have the same mentality.

Gregor GysiMar 13, 20171 votes

Yea this post has 80+ upvotes so that's quite something.

Troll for TrumpMar 13, 20171 votes

80+ is nothing compared to the number of circlejerk and anti-circlejerk threads that are up every day

1.6k upvotes 1.5 k upvotes

Two Threads[ 1 and 2 ] that ask for the 3 refunds per season, with 5.4k and 2.7k upvotes, with a third one that has 1.3k.

Too lazy to search for the anti-circlejerk ones, but you get the idea. 80 isn't a lot

Bottom LanerMar 12, 201716 votes

Jhin first then.

Iron WuMar 12, 201715 votes

Jhin first then.

Mira Arya EntheMar 12, 201715 votes

Jhin first then.

nice tableMar 12, 201712 votes

Jhin fifth then. C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!

SaewinMar 12, 20175 votes

four downvotes.

nice tableMar 12, 20175 votes

but four downvotes is actually 5 :^)

SkorchMar 12, 20178 votes

I agree Graves is an issue, but i see an awful lot of one line posts about "Dis OP" and thats it, i feel like that is kind of a circlejerk.

Again im not denying hes not a problem. But a LARGE problem on this sight is the number of people making posts just to agree. If you make 5 Graves posts that get ~40 upvotes all around mid on front page. That speaks the same if not less than a single highly detailed graves post on the front page at the top with 300-400 upvotes. But how do you combat upvote farming, other than just making a good post yourself?

ElikainMar 12, 20175 votes

Upvote farming is a big issue for me as well. Because i don't really mind if everyone comes here and shares their opinion on Graves, but i'd rather that this done in a megathread about Graves that starts with some legitimate concerns about his play rate and popularity. It's way easier for us and Riot to participate in those threads if everything is organized in one place.

Some people just want to get attention and don't really care about the issues. Latching on to the currently popular topic and riling up the crowd without saying anything of value is always the easiest way to achieve this.