what is his weakness his kit is just overloaded af
All that shit combined and you have a god tier jungler. He can get away with just about anything in right the hands. Seriously compare what he can do to other junglers hes in his own lane. I dont bother to play him i will never buy him even if hes good just because i hate this champion that much.
RlP K0BE32 votesI just dont understand how it's ok for a champion to have the ability to peel for themselves (his R) and still have 2 other abilities available to close/open gaps
Spoofghoul34 votes
hi i peel for myself and have invisibility on my dash
oh and you can't counterbuild my damage like you can for lee
3TWarrior5 votesshe also has some of the lowest range for ranged characters and with the instant-kill meta, her brand of sustained high damage against single targets is not enough
of course, her disengage is very silly with the knockback range of her E
Fisher No Chains22 votesExcuse me, where did you see the "lowest range"? 550 is THE average range for ranged champions.
We only have Cait, Varus, Jinx's Fishbones, Mid/Late Tristana, Kog's W and Twitch with ult who have higher range, and for 1/2 of them it's situational.
her brand of sustained high damage against single targets is not enough
Where have you been for the last 3 months? :(
Elohaven5 votesYou also forget that MF's Q,E and ultimate actually gives her more range than Vayne as well.
Wait, that's a lot of ADCs. So yes, Vayne's range is low.
Fisher No Chains3 votesAren't we talking about attack range though? A lot of abilities have a higher range than the actual champion's range, so I don't see your point here.
Elohaven1 votesI thought we were talking about abilities since we were talking about her E, tumble(Q), ult, and Lee Sin's ult.
If you include abilities as well, Vayne's abilities - the range on them are low as well. Her E has a ridiculous knockback, but it also has a short cast range.
Her Q is dependent on her autoattack range. Her W is a passive. Her ult is a steroid.
So Vayne does not get as much range or coverage as many other ADCs, making her very vulnerable to harass. Other ADCs have more range from abilities as well, so Vayne is very weak in that regard.
Fisher No Chains7 votesShe has a dash on a ridiculous cd, uncounterable stealth and a stupid burst for an adc, too. Every marksman has strengths and weaknesses, so we can't really use range as a comparison for both.
In Vayne's case yes, her lack of long-range abilities is a weakness, but she also has a lot of tools to succeed despite her range handicap.
Onerios2 votesEvery other adc has some other way of threatening damage further out. Take for example sivir, who has a shorter attack range then vayne, her q allows her to provide threat at a significantly longer distance, bounces from her w give some situational damage extension, or graves who has a decent range on his q, w, and ult even though his auto attack range is low. On the other hand vayne only has threat inside her auto attack range, so if there is something zoning her back even slightly she has no impact. That's what people mean when they say that vayne has low range, not how long her auto attack range literally is.
At least that is what they should be meaning to say. If someone is making the argument that vayne has poor auto attack range that's just plain wrong.
3TWarrior1 votesunfortunately, I meant auto attack range itself as there are very few marksman to match or lower auto attack range than vayne without a functional method of replacing that damage
though I suppose that means I was referring to both auto attack range and ability range, right and wrong
Paroe2 votesunfortunately, I meant auto attack range itself as there are very few marksman to match or lower auto attack range than vayne without a functional method of replacing that damage
though I suppose that means I was referring to both auto attack range and ability range, right and wrong
i think the only champions with lower range that arent considered extended melee are Kayle, lucian, teemo, and Urgot. 550 is the standard range, and most marksman abilitiles (barring the ones mentioned above) dont really leave their basic attack range all to very much. Maybe an additional hundred range on a skillshot, but thats it.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesAs much as I love a good Vayne circle jerk, she's not nearly as bad as Lee Sin or even Lucian in regards to Mobility creep. She can't even dash through walls. Riot has even hotfixed the game in scenarios where she could.
My Waifu Vanilla3 votesHi I have peel on my ultimate that also does a high amount of magic damage while also having a gap closer that slows, does magic damage, and resets on kill/assist!
God
is so overpowered.
Sexy Jack Rabbit6 votesYour point would have been relevant had you said it in Season 5. Tristana is awful now.
Demens Astrum3 votes(c) best bronze analytics of the year. Same thing, you just haven't seen a good ones. She is just not popular right now, that's all.
Sexy Jack Rabbit6 votesNo lol. She's literally C Tier if not worse. There is no reason to pick Tristana over a lot of other adcs. She is currently out-classed in every regard.
I dunno why you think attacking my rank instantly makes your opinion right. Not too mention you're only level 14.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesTristana hasn't received a real buff or nerf in the past 2+ years. The only changes she's had were changes to her QWE interactions, but no direct buffs/nerfs.
Trestani1 votesShe just got a duration buff on her Q, what are you even going on about?
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesWhich didn't affect her gameplay at all. The duration buff was mainly added (most likely) to offset the fact her Q has a longer CD compared to before since hitting targets with E doesn't lower the CD anymore.
The fact remains almost every change Tristana has received hardly any straight buffs/nerfs since every change she has gotten (besides the recent Q buff) has been a mixture of buffs/nerfs in same patch (W does more base damage, but doesn't get increased by E stacks/Q and E cd down but don't lower each other's cd anymore/etc.) So the original reply of "she's garbage now" holds no weight since she hasn't really been changed.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesFrom patch 5.5 - 7.3 Tristana has seen over 10 Nerfs/Buffs and Adjustments to her kit. She has seen A LOT Of balancing, a majority of which were nerfs due to how insanely Overtuned her kit was after her rework.
Meta's change, champions are released, updated and buffed. You're right, she hasn't really changed much, but she individually does not need to change in order for her to become weak. The game can change around her while she remains stagnant, and as result becoming weak, out-classed, out-dated and not a good pick.
Dracocrash1 votesyou haven't gotten his point. He's acting like OP, listing all the strenghts of a champion, without listing their weaknesses.
Backup4now3 votesLee Sin does not have weaknesses, so of course the OP did not list any.
Dracocrash1 votesI will list some of lee sin's weaknesses then, with statistical or argument proof.
Falls of late game : as seen by his win rate % vs game length graph (http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle)
Unreliable damage without his ultimate: His Q is a skillshot and can be dodged. His E damage is not too high.
Long cooldown on free dash: If there is no target present, even with wards, his dash has a 14s cooldown.
No hard cc in his basic skillset : He only has a slow, and no other hard cc aside from his ultimate.
Backup4now2 votesFalling off late game is a valid argument. However, he only drops below 50% at the 35 minute mark. Good luck exploiting that these days.
Unreliable damage is not a weakness, it's a lack of a strength. There's a big difference between the two. That, and he can make his q be undodgeable with ult or w, he can make his ult undodgeable with w, and his e damage might not be a Viegar Ult but it still adds up. It's not nothing, that's for sure. It's not even unreliable.
14s isn't even a long cooldown. Once you get cdr, it's barely higher than Ezreal's max cdr E cooldown.
Not having hard cc is not a weakness, it's a lack of a strength. He doesn't need it, either, as his kit allows him to control the pace of the fight, as well as when the fight occurs, without it.
Dolasaur21 votesforbidden by nature
He does have multiple dashes where he has apparently 0 vertical momentum despite being midair. He's totally defying gravity. Agreed that he's defying gravity (nature).
Kirius Dark19 votesDont forget his free attack speed buff. IMO it should only be activated when he hits a champion or jungle monster, not be able to free spam his abilities for a permanent 40% attack speed buff to melt towers.
Zed requires his shadow and champ to hit an enemy champ to recover energy Shen requires his abilities to hit champs or monsters to recover energy Akali requires her Q to hit a target then auto it to recover energy Kennen requires his abilities to hit enemies to recover energy
Lee Sin is the only one who is able to abuse his energy regen and free passive damage modifier against turrets
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesI'm not sure if using three assassins, and a tank, is the considerably the same as comparing a fighter. Assassins have that limiter so they can't just be Spammy McSpamsters, so that they're forced to interact in lane, and Shen has his energy limited, but has a huge pool of energy, and get's it back from just with Q and E (and Q extra damage doesn't work on towers anyways)
Also, I don't see how Lee having his kit, is considered abuse? Vi has her passive, Jax passive, Jarvan passive, Aatrox passive(s), Kled passive, Riven passive, are they all "Abusing" their passive too, by simply using them? "I'm abusing Sion's passive when I die, then kill my enemy." It really feels you're just using it for the effect.
Edit: Not talking about Lee's Balance, simply how it's wrong to compare two people due to similar resource. Jax and Ahri have mana, are they to be compared in the same degree?
Muzét6 votesHis second role is "Assassin" so it's no big deal to compare him to Akali and Zed. Specially when he has way more mobility than both of them. He's the only one that can regen without any issue energy. As the precedent post said: he can it whatever he wants wards, minions... even plants.
Shen has a huge pool BECAUSE it was better to handle the numbers with it. So the number has been tweaked according to the energy pool. You can compare two champions when you want to point out something relevant like this case. Jax & Ahri are clearly different. You could compare Ahri to LeBlanc for example. Or Jax to Irelia. They're similar. Just like Lee Sin and Zed/Akali.
Riot should nerf his ratios or his base (-150 only on ult isn't enough with those ratios), his bonus AS on passive (which isn't legitimate at all: getting 40% straight from the beginning of the game) or his mobility cd. You want to make flashy R? Pay for it. 14s isn't enough [8,4/6,3s with 40/45% CDR] It should be higher.
WolfBV11 votesHe isn't resourceless.
Edit: What are his 4 escapes? I can only think of 3.
Woodakoodashooda3 votesPssst,...people don't like it when you defend a champion with a high pick rate despite his abysmal win rate.
Paroe20 votes[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TIPYP46d,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-03-06T20:27:45.973+0000)
Pssst,...people don't like it when you defend a champion with a high pick rate despite his abysmal win rate.
30% pick rate with 48% win rate is not "abysmal" - its abnormally high.
Dextix LT2 votesEspecially when considering he is one of the "harder" champions to play.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesI don't get something. People complain about Lee being "Not that hard", so if that is the case, a 48% winrate with a large playerbase shouldn't be that bad. But then people say that 48% is still too much for a "Hard to play" champion, so which one is it??
I get there are different people on the boards, but this has been a pretty common thing I've seen.
Paroe5 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TIPYP46d,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-06T23:35:39.889+0000)
I don't get something. People complain about Lee being "Not that hard", so if that is the case, a 48% winrate with a large playerbase shouldn't be that bad. But then people say that 48% is still too much for a "Hard to play" champion, so which one is it??
I get there are different people on the boards, but this has been a pretty common thing I've seen.
Its not.... that. Its that lee sin has such a huge variance that his win rate should be lower. You see lee sin at 10% pickrate in lower ELOs and it goes up to 35% in some regions in upper ELOs.
maintaining a 48% win rate (a "fair" win rate) despite being played very often in all tiers of ranked is a sign of a huge problem. It means that hes easy to use in the lower ELOs, and that hes very strong in the upper ELOs. A case of "easy to pick up, easy to master" so to speak.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesAren't most winrate statistics, based on higher elo's for a reason though? If Yi has a high ass winrate in High Elo, he's certainly going to have a high winrate in lower, yet Lee is rather different. His winrate is low in lower elos, yet higher in High Elo, yet his high elo stats still are in the 48%?
I don't get it, and I'm sure as hell not a good enough mathematician to bother tying the numbers together. But accordingly, he still fits into the spectrum of "hard to play" champions, specifically looking at High Elo. We don't count Low Elo for a reason.
Paroe4 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TIPYP46d,comment-id=000500000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-06T23:55:09.757+0000)
Aren't most winrate statistics, based on higher elo's for a reason though? If Yi has a high ass winrate in High Elo, he's certainly going to have a high winrate in lower, yet Lee is rather different. His winrate is low in lower elos, yet higher in High Elo, yet his high elo stats still are in the 48%?
I don't get it, and I'm sure as hell not a good enough mathematician to bother tying the numbers together. But accordingly, he still fits into the spectrum of "hard to play" champions, specifically looking at High Elo. We don't count Low Elo for a reason.
Its still a 30% pick rate. In upper ELOs its upside 51% win rate. You count all ELOs unless otherwise specified.
Gregor Gysi5 votesPickrate =/= how good people are in average with a certain champions. Avg. Games played is much more useful in that regard.
Lee players with 80 games have a <56% winrate in plat+.
Ivern players with 10 games have a <60% winrate in plat +.
Graves players with 20 games have a <56% winrate in plat+.
Shaco 56% at 10, Heca 56% at 10 you get the idea.
There are so many junglers who perform better when played by inexperienced players than very experienced Lee players. Please complain about something that is actually dominating.
Krystle1 votes[deleted]
Velzard of Koz4 votesI think by fourth he meant the slow which can be used as disengage, however the four escape thing is indeed exaggorated
3TWarrior3 votesward hop(or ally hop if he has no wards available), Q to a monster/minion, ultimate for disengage
then they might have included flash
most champions do not have more than 2 and 3 if they use flash and even then champions with multiple engage or disengage tools are generally viewed as toxic
Ekko, Riven, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
Thilmer8 votesI personally feel every champion that doesn't use mana is broken by definition, the most broken ones been the "I use skills for free because yes". 
Fisher No Chains6 votes"I know Lee Sin is broken but if I nerf him too many people will complain" -Morello"
Mid 2014 iirc.
Nothing has changed yet.
Hexs Fortune6 votes
10 bans means you'll never see these guys again
EndlessCycle4 votesThe spit in the face is that he has the highest base movement speed in the game, with all of his gapclosers.
Mizuki Zahra2 votesI thought the same then I bought him to play him to learn how to counter him better lol by playing him I know what can be annoying to him and how to juke him better than before, but ya dang I was just passing by mid and enemy died in 2 seconds lol
deadlychuck7 votesIronically the ways by which you counter him, are often deemed unacceptable by riot, when it comes to other champions.
