"Sona's harassment is uncounterable"

Ulquiorra995·Jan 27, 2015·41 votes·5,570 views

Sona's Q range - 850, AA range - 550 (note that her harassment is crap without empowered AA's)

Leona's Zenith Blade - 875 Nami's bubble - 875, Ebb and Flow - 725 Jinx' lv1 rocket attack - 600 Zyra's Grasping Roots - 1100 Cait's Q - 1300, AA - 650 Corki's Q - 825 Vayne's tumble (300 units) + AA - 550 Graves' Q - 950 Sivir's Q - 1250 Kog's AA with lv1 W - 630 Varus' Q- 925-1387, E 925 Karma's tether - 675 Lulu's Q - 925, W and E - 700 Zilean's bomb - 700 Draven's E - 1050

Including things that don't pass through minions, but spell instant death for Sona due to how squishy and defenseless she is: Thresh's hook - 1100 Blitz's hook - 925 Morg's binding - 1175

Yeah, it's totally oppressive and uncounterable outside of staying out of range. Not like you have your own abilities and attacks that outrange and outdamage her if she gets close enough.

EDIT: How comes that I never see people complaining about undodgeable Sona's Q complain about ranged top laners? Seeing that, unlike in bot lane, melee toplaners more often than not don't have a ranged ability to retaliate against that Vayne or Quinn who just AA them for free damage.

118 Comments

Leti the YetiJan 27, 201531 votes

http://puu.sh/eZjSV/a98387ce91.png here's a little something I spread around erry now and then made it photoshop in like 30 seconds :D

SEKAIJan 27, 201511 votes

Poor Sona.

item 3070 Amumu

TarynJan 27, 20154 votes

I'm still dying from last time please spare me. xD

DJ SiamakJan 27, 201510 votes

Now how many of those ones did you list are skillshots compared to Sona?

Moulin RougeJan 27, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-27T12:02:56.921+0000)

Now how many of those ones did you list are skillshots compared to Sona?

Except in most cases, Sona can be extremely punished for attempting to harass.

DJ SiamakJan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Except in most cases, Sona can be extremely punished for attempting to harass.

Do you know how to stand near minions?

Moulin RougeJan 27, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T12:13:36.971+0000)

Do you know how to stand near minions?

Do you know that most of those ss go through minions? All but the most punishing ss (blitz grab, thresh hook, Morgana snare) go through minions.

And that's because if those 3 hit, its imminent death or a flash.

ZephyrDrakeJan 27, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T12:13:36.971+0000)

Do you know how to stand near minions?

do you know how easily predictable a Sona harass is?

Rinky DinkyJan 27, 201510 votes

Did you know that right clicking on Sona causes her to die in 3 hits?

Circuit BearJan 28, 20151 votes

I don't even...

550 auto range. Edit: I apparently forgot the ranges when I stopped playing for a while.

So if I walk towards her when she tries to auto. the range is.. under 500.... I think a melee's base auto range is technically like.. 150. So if she is within 500.. and can't outrun me... what are the odds of me landing a skill shot when she stops to auto me and I move into her since autos require you to stay still for a short period and my movespeed beats hers anyway

I wonder what happens when she auto's someone, surely minions don't get agro off that so that when I cc her she won't take a f-ton of damage due to the fact her stats are terrible.

cshakesJan 28, 20151 votes

550 is average for a ranged champion. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range Graves, pow-pow Jinx and Quinn have 525 range. Sivir, Lucian and Koggles have 500 range.

Circuit BearJan 28, 20152 votes

Confirmed, I suck.

Thank you for correcting me.

My argument slightly invalidated by this.

Janna WindgaleJan 27, 20157 votes

Sona is way too squishy early game, aswell as mid and late game and riot should fix this problem for her.

ZephyrDrakeJan 27, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aurora Saelena,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-27T12:30:13.561+0000)

Sona is way too squishy early game, aswell as mid and late game and riot should fix this problem for her.

nah, they'll just nerf her damage across all stages of the game again and make her more vulnerable than she already is instead of actually fixing her W and E having lackluster auras

Miku Lv99Jan 27, 20156 votes

Sona harassment can be defeated with a lot of bot lanes. When she moves forward to harass, move back. Make her move so that she is equidistant from both of your team members. Then when she tries to Q, you jump all over her and completely blow her up. Because of the threat of this any time she can attempt to harass, she should kinda get zoned out of most her harass against competent opponents that have threatening abilities. She has to get away with a lot of these where she can be beaten in order for her to really win.

IMO Thresh, Blitz, Leona, and even Braum have way more oppressive laning phases. The constant threat that zones the other team out of doing a lot of things is much more oppressive than the threat of some poke.

It Is I EmotoJan 27, 20155 votes

I feel bad for all those adc mains who recieve those 40 magic damage.. but its reduced by 20% thanks to their base mr and probably run even more mr means 30% reduction... 32 unavoidable magic damage, wowwww thats so much, not even an adc auto attack does more..... #BetterNerfSona........Again!

Now let push that aside, How do even people feel so oppressed by her Q? like I'd prefer to get some magic damage instead of being pulled by blitz, hooked by thresh, or catched up by leona. Like, it does not do anything, just do some autos on a minion and voila, you have your hp back! whats so hard on this`? You can even punish sona for going into your range with an auto that does more damage than an Sona Q

Fashion MageJan 27, 20155 votes

I much prefer to get Q'd+Powerchord'd+AA'd by Sona than stunlock'd (and typically bursted 100-0) by Leona at a longer range.

balbraakselJan 27, 20154 votes

Lulu's Q has that long range? I never realized that.

Pika310Jan 28, 20153 votes

Considering it shoots out of Pix and her E has 700, it's reasonable to say Lulu's Q has 1625 range or longer if they walk away.

JØJłJan 27, 20154 votes

Tbh, I feel more annoyed laning against a Soraka than a Sona. #Betternerfsona

Subject 5Jan 28, 20154 votes

Everybody opposing the standpoint either bring up champion combinations or defend reasonings behind Sona getting nerfed but not another champion. First of all, if a champion is being nerfed for champion combination (which is not true, lmao?) Karma would not even exist with Caitlyn being viable, Annie . . . should i keep going?

Also, Sona has uncontested poke? You do realize Zilean is capable of hiding in a bush and planting a bomb that blows up without having any form of retaliation right? "Don't bring Zesty zill into this, he ain't viable" what makes you think a professionally played champion is not viable? Are you on crystal meth or should i ask Urgot to perform brain surgery on me?

Instead of beating around the bush why not just look at her kit? The worst heal in the game with one of the highest mana cost? The worst move speed steroid to even exist in the game that i even know of, poke is being reduced to not even being necessary of a skill after 5 minutes in lane and her mana costs are so high it is like tearing your own arm off to replace it for your adc who took two auto attacks. The problem is NOT that she is squishy or uncounterable, it is just that everybody including non supports do her job better. If Sona was picked for her healing, move speed and poke why in the hell do we pick Sona? Nidalee is literally 100% better in that category, the literal only thing stopping that pick is Sona and her ultimate.

HandheldBrandonJan 29, 20151 votes

Zilean literally has nothing else but his bomb.

Nothing.

The rest of his skills are utility skills and unless Zilean has a ton of ap early his bombs do far less damage than Sona poke.

Honestly all it takes is sona to have just AP runes and suddenly shes poking your carry down for 30 percent of their health at a time. People always complain about it but Sona is as annoying to deal with as she is beneficial.

ZephyrDrakeJan 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Zilean literally has nothing else but his bomb.

Nothing.

The rest of his skills are utility skills and unless Zilean has a ton of ap early his bombs do far less damage than Sona poke.

Honestly all it takes is sona to have just AP runes and suddenly shes poking your carry down for 30 percent of their health at a time. People always complain about it but Sona is as annoying to deal with as she is beneficial.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 90 / 145 / 200 / 260 / 320 (+ 90% AP)

MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP) ON-HIT MAGIC DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 20% AP) (+ 10 / 20 / 40)

i really want to know how Zilean does less poke than Sona... specially when he always drops double bombs in your face

HandheldBrandonJan 29, 20151 votes

Funny you seem to have forgotten something.

Power Chord

Power Chord After casting 3 basic abilities, Sona's next basic attack will deal 13 / 20 / 27 / 35 / 43 / 52 / 62 / 72 / 82 / 92 / 102 / 112 / 122 / 132 / 147 / 162 / 177 / 192 (6 + 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 15 at each level) (+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage, with an additional effect depending on the last basic ability cast. [show]

Ability Details

Hymn of Valor RANGE: 850 COST: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 MANA COOLDOWN: 8 Hymn of Valor

ACTIVE: Sona sends out bolts of sound that deal magic damage to the two nearest enemies within 850-range, prioritizing champions.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP) AURA: Sona and allied champions tagged with Hymn of Valor's aura deal bonus magic damage on their next basic attack within 3 seconds.

ON-HIT MAGIC DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 20% AP) (+ 10 / 20 / 40) Power Chord.png POWER CHORD - STACCATO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord deals 40% bonus damage.

You failed to mention that Also gets a 40 percent damage boost increase on her powerchord when she uses hymn of valor.

Zilean also has 17 armor early game and only 10 more health than Sona.

Zileans harass also costs far more mana being 70 mana at level 1 plus 50 mana if he uses rewind.Zileans level 1 Q costs more mana than a max level Sona Q which leaves Sona more opportunities to poke and she can do it considerably more mount of times and she doesnt have to blow 2 large cooldown spells to do it.

Sona also heals her allies and buffs their armor and magic resist.

Zilean speeds them up. Thats it. Oh and at level 6 he can ult.

But so can sona and she can ult an entire enemy team and stun them. Sona>Zilean every time. Did i mention Sona has more range?

Pika310Jan 29, 20153 votes

Did i mention Sona has more range?

I'm not certain how 700 range is more than 700 range. Logically, I thought those 2 numbers were identical, but apparently one is somehow miraculously bigger than the other. Cardboard logic, go figure...

HandheldBrandonJan 29, 20152 votes

Not sure where you are seeing 700 range because Sona's Q has 850 range while zileans is only 700 and stops his movement for about 0.2-0.3 seconds while he applies the bomb. Sona's continues to allow her to move.

Perhaps you should invest in a pair of reading glasses?

Pika310Jan 29, 20153 votes

I can read just fine. For about the 17th time I've had to say this to non-Sona players as yourself, the Wikia and League site both have her range on Q listed incorrectly.

It ate a secret nerf of -50 in patch 4.13 and another of -100 in patch 4.16. Since both of these nerfs were done in secret, her written numbers were left unchanged, despite being incorrect. It was increased by 150 in 4.17 to put it back to its actual range of 700, but they mistakenly increased the listed value as well. Its written value is 150 points higher than its true range, the exact same sum of the 2 nerfs that were reverted.

Pika310Jan 29, 20154 votes

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/pika310/Sona%20Meme%203_zpsrywr1md5.jpg

BeatzBoyFTWJan 27, 20152 votes

Meanwhile, all Sona does is go near and hit Q for free damage, of course, her actions would only make my Soraka heal faster.

Pika310Jan 27, 201515 votes

Meanwhile, all Nami does is go near and hit W for free damage.

Meanwhile, all Lulu does is go near and hit E+Q for free damage.

Meanwhile, all Janna does is go near and hit W for free damage.

Meanwhile, all Annie does is go near and hit Q for free damage.

Meanwhile, all Zilean does is go near and hit Q+W+Q for free damage.

Notice a pattern yet? Mathematically I only needed to do 3, but consider the extra 2 my gift.

Ulquiorra995Jan 27, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile, all Sona does is go near and hit Q for free damage, of course, her actions would only make my heal faster.

Yes, that 40/Q lv damage really chunks your HP. Unless she gets into AA range to pull of decent damage. But guess what? Not only most of botlane picks can retaliate with abilities at that range, they can also use their own AA's. AA's, you know, that thing you don't need to aim? Like Sona's Q?

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20157 votes

Dude Riot stopped listening to player input a long time ago regarding Sona.

Ulquiorra995Jan 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Dude Riot stopped listening to player input a long time ago regarding Sona.

While it seems Riot only accepts player backlash when it's revolving around a certain monk, one can only hope that boards being flooded with Sona threads will get into their thick skulls someday.

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20155 votes

Well lets put this into perspective Riot has secret data to determine whether or not a champion requires a nerf and unknown formulas to calculate how to balance a champion. Now due to this information who do you think they are going to listen to player input or data, in which most players have no access to.

Circuit BearJan 28, 20154 votes

This is exactly why I gave up on League ever being fun again. All of my roles are now forcing me into characters I hate.

Knight SoIaire Jan 27, 20151 votes

what riot aims at and ppl dont get is that sonas abilities are just press key to get an effect oriented so she cant be allowed to be strong

what riot fails and comunity is backlashing at is the fact that riot fixes this by numerical nerfs making no sence, they should change her to actualy involwe some skill besides pressing a button

my personal fawourite option would be to remake her passive into a skillshot that is fired on the next spell she casts
this way she can actualy miss her harras and riot gets something to actualy ballance her besides her numbers

Ulquiorra995Jan 27, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-27T13:54:44.299+0000)

what riot aims at and ppl dont get is that sonas abilities are just press key to get an effect oriented so she cant be allowed to be strong

what riot fails and comunity is backlashing at is the fact that riot fixes this by numerical nerfs making no sence, they should change her to actualy involwe some skill besides pressing a button

Because pressing a button and left-clicking an enemy as Zilean, Nami, Annie or Lulu requires so much more skill than pressing a button on Sona.

Knight SoIaire Jan 27, 20151 votes

zilean is older than sona if im right so he represents the same problem nami ? she needs to consider load things to use that one skill effectively, sona has to just stand close to her target and she aims only her ult (namis ebb and flow requires skill to get the bouncess off, otherwise it isnt as potent as comparable skills)

annie is another old champ lulu ? she has point and click cc and i agree that it could be a skillshot , thou aiming her q's is realy tricky when pix starts moving around the guy its atached to

but let e point out you either copare sona to champs who represent the same problems or you compare her to champions who have only one skill representing the same problem as 90% of sonas kit not to mention that other guys at least have to click a target while sona is all automatic

ZephyrDrakeJan 27, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T14:57:39.898+0000)

zilean is older than sona if im right so he represents the same problem nami ? she needs to consider load things to use that one skill effectively, sona has to just stand close to her target and she aims only her ult (namis ebb and flow requires skill to get the bouncess off, otherwise it isnt as potent as comparable skills)

annie is another old champ lulu ? she has point and click cc and i agree that it could be a skillshot , thou aiming her q's is realy tricky when pix starts moving around the guy its atached to

but let e point out you either copare sona to champs who represent the same problems or you compare her to champions who have only one skill representing the same problem as 90% of sonas kit not to mention that other guys at least have to click a target while sona is all automatic

and she also has stupidly low bases in each of those skills when compared to other champs and has little to no cc and very limited utility. Sorry but if all Sona does in lane is harass with Q and not use her enhanced auto's nor her PC empowered auto's then you are facing a Sona that does laughable damage and by the time she ever gets you low enough for your life to be at risk you will most likely be backing anyways. If Sona does go and tries to auto you to use her empowered autos then you can easily just return the harass, most likely chunking her down even more than she ever could (depending on the champion of course)

Ulquiorra995Jan 27, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T14:57:39.898+0000)

zilean is older than sona if im right so he represents the same problem nami ? she needs to consider load things to use that one skill effectively, sona has to just stand close to her target and she aims only her ult (namis ebb and flow requires skill to get the bouncess off, otherwise it isnt as potent as comparable skills)

annie is another old champ lulu ? she has point and click cc and i agree that it could be a skillshot , thou aiming her q's is realy tricky when pix starts moving around the guy its atached to

but let e point out you either copare sona to champs who represent the same problems or you compare her to champions who have only one skill representing the same problem as 90% of sonas kit not to mention that other guys at least have to click a target while sona is all automatic

Sure, her abilities don't have much thought to them. But that does not mean she's not involving skill, especially in a game full of kill oriented supports and junglers.

Slightly mess up your positioning? Dead. Fail to manage your mana with insane costs on W? You are useless. Get hit by a CC? Dead or recalling with flash/ult probably down. Use your "uncounterable harass"? Opened up for retaliation. Try to tag as much people with auras? Grouped up for AoE enemies.

A champion does not need to be all skill shots to be fun or somewhat challenging to play. Or are you saying Nami being straight up a better Sona is OK because Nami has to aim one of her skills?

Btw considering 'load of things she need to use that one skill effectively', that one skill outdoes both Sona's Q in terms of damage and her W in terms of sustain. Let that sink in.

Knight SoIaire Jan 27, 20151 votes

she's not involving skill, especially in a game full of kill oriented supports and junglers.

she is weak statwise so others win with her at a normal fight
but if we would give her similar dmg and health to other guys she would win 90% of encounters because she can juke all day without thinking about aiming

Slightly mess up your positioning? Dead. Fail to manage your mana with insane costs on W? You are useless. Get hit by a CC? Dead or recalling with flash/ult probably down. Use your "uncounterable harass"? Opened up for retaliation. Try to tag as much people with auras? Grouped up for AoE enemies.

A champion does not need to be all skill shots to be fun or somewhat challenging to play.

im speaking ballance here you speak about the satisfaction from playing

if sona doesnt have to aim it means that her stats need to be gutted or she is op since enemies cant stop her from doing her stuff (counterplay needs to go beyond counterpicks)

especially in a game full of kill oriented supports and junglers.

as i said in this post already counterplay needs to go beyond counterpick

Btw considering 'load of things she need to use that one skill effectively', that one skill outdoes both Sona's Q in terms of damage and her W in terms of sustain. Let that sink in.

with all the bounces ? sure but for that to occur she needs to use it in a very fawourable spot

AbyssphereJan 27, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvTpZtZH,comment-id=00040000000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-27T17:02:50.146+0000)

im speaking ballance here you speak about the satisfaction from playing

if sona doesnt have to aim it means that her stats need to be gutted or she is op since enemies cant stop her from doing her stuff

How is listing a bunch of her weaknesses not speaking about balance? He goes into detail on all of the ways Sona can mess up and get horribly punished and your response is "if sona doesnt have to aim".

There are a lot of ways to stop her doing anything, and also ways that the Sona player needs to express skill, some of which were listed in the post you quoted, and you ignore it all to say "sona doesn't have to aim". Wow.

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20154 votes

Hagane No Arashi is trolling I mean look at how he spells certain words. Please dont feed the trolls.

Rinky DinkyJan 27, 201510 votes

You do realize that if all spells in a game are skillshots, this thing called mobility becomes really broken right?

There HAS to be point and click abilities.

Knight SoIaire Jan 27, 20151 votes

You do realize that if all spells in a game are skillshots, this thing called mobility becomes really broken right? There HAS to be point and click abilities.

again just like the other gu who replied to my post im speaking ballance wise

when we speak about skillshots vs mobility there is a big number of handles riot can pull to adjust their ballance

when we speak point and click then all that riot can do iss to gut your damage because nobody will dodge it

MY MAIN POINT IS THE THEORY BEHIND RIOTS BALANCE AND WHY PPL HATE THAT riot wants to prevent sona from being a ryze in his best days where he just clicked you and you couldnt stop him while he didnt realy do anything hard and you couldnt do anything to stop him

but riot cant ballance sona just by cutting numbers, just like ryze she will bounce from not worth to play to actualy better than anything else

so i find it better to make part of her kit a skillshot or something that engages her mechanicaly

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20155 votes

How can she bounce? Sona does no dmg and has health lower than a freaking creep. Ryze is capable of bouncing due to the compensations that Riot has made. Sona isn't capable of bouncing due to Riot not providing compensations for her nerfs.

Knight SoIaire Jan 27, 20151 votes

thats what i meant by "bouncing" either shes up or she goes op

atm riot is in the phase of gut it till it dies

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20155 votes

Very well based on your definition of bouncing what makes you think Riot will let her go up. A Rioter has once said that he hates sona.

TarynJan 27, 20154 votes

If only every auto attack in the game was a skill shot, then this whole "Sona's harass takes no skill" argument would actually hold water.

Demonsolder21Jan 27, 20152 votes

My point exactly. The term skill needs to be defined in accordance to the genre MOBA.