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LeBroken needs some counterplay added

Ulquiorra995··138 votes·6,549 views

Overpowered or not, there is no denying that she is one of most frustrating champions to play against - she needs either her numbers nerfed to the ground (famous Riot modus operandi) or to take some big changes to her kit.

1.) Make her Q a skillshot. Plain and simple. Allows players to dodge the burst. 2.) Make her W have a return delay. Allows a window of opportunity to punish her. 3.) Make her W return immediately disabled by hard CC. Similar to number 2, but with lower window of opportunity and higher payoff if you react accordingly.

Gameplay pattern of dash in/burst with point and click spells and near-instant ground AoE/blink out before anyone can react is far from healthy - champions were given full reworks for much less. Players MUST get an opportunity to either dodge it or be given a sizeable window to fight back. I just want to have some fun in this game, goddammit.

We can ban her in ranked, true, but in half of more of normals there will always be a douchebag wanting to 'have fun' at the expense of fun of other 5 people. Normals, you know. Stuff that most of the people play. Place where people want to have fun and test new stuff.

116 Comments

Celosar36 votes

I think the reason I'm okay with LB is that she can only do it to one person at a time. Not saying a super fed LB can't chunk the hell out of your team with double distortion but then again that's fed.

I personally think Katarina's ability to wipe people from the face of the earth is far more toxic since with a low ping she can literally get a triple+ in under a second.

On topic, I agree. Her kit is NOT fun to lane against. Granted I think doing some custom games with a buddy can help you learn how to counter her. I just wait for her to W, since my ping is too high to respond DURING distortion, then harass the hell out of her knowing I'm safe for like 8 seconds.

Ancestor00721 votes

But Katarina is very easy to abuse early. Just a few matchups that destroy her in lane: Ahri Long range tons of damage poke? Neh, you ain't farming safely. Annie A stun every 4 abilities? And big burst? Well, ur fucked. Azir You ain't coming near me. Chogath Tanky, Aoe silence, sustain and cc? Good luck m8. You'll need it. Diana You just lose 95 % of the time. Bigger burst, cc, gap closer, poke, shield. The perfect counter. Leblanc She hits level 2 first? Gl. Lissandra Have fun with this. CC, disengage, good poke and that fucking ult. Malzahar Fast wave clear, ult is very strong. Tanky. See you sucker. Xerath Long range, stun, slow. 2 combos=dead Zed Who doesn't like to lose half health in a WQ combo Ziggs The same as Xerath, but more anoying. And he eats bombs. That's dangerous. You could get a stomach ache

bluegolisano3 votes

Zerath is more like a sniper. don't give him something like Halo CE style Active Camoflauge.

PandahHeart4 votes

{quoted}

But Katarina is very easy to abuse early. Just a few matchups that destroy her in lane: Ahri Long range tons of damage poke? Neh, you ain't farming safely. Annie A stun every 4 abilities? And big burst? Well, ur fucked. Azir You ain't coming near me. Chogath Tanky, Aoe silence, sustain and cc? Good luck m8. You'll need it. Diana You just lose 95 % of the time. Bigger burst, cc, gap closer, poke, shield. The perfect counter. Leblanc She hits level 2 first? Gl. Lissandra Have fun with this. CC, disengage, good poke and that fucking ult. Malzahar Fast wave clear, ult is very strong. Tanky. See you sucker. Xerath Long range, stun, slow. 2 combos=dead Zed Who doesn't like to lose half health in a WQ combo Ziggs The same as Xerath, but more anoying. And he eats bombs. That's dangerous. You could get a stomachacke(pretty sure i spelled that wrong)

Plus: Ahri Also has spell vamp. Anivia Very underrated. If you get hit by a Q or stand on her ult then you're going to lose half of your health. Plus can block Sion's ult. Brand Get melted. Cassiopeia If you have no mobility and you get hit by poison then you're going to get chunked. Galio Oh, you picked an AP champion. Heimerdinger Pushes waves quickly. Can hide behind turrets. Also has a stun. Kayle Has a heal, a wave clear and an untouchable ult. Morgana Stun lasts of days. Lulu Strong shield, slow, polymorph and knock up with additional health. Nidalee Get hit by a spear and you'll be assassinated. Swain Snare and heals against enemy champions. Teemo Shrooms. Blind. Poison. More shoorms. Veigar Can nearly destroy any AP with just an ult. Yasuo Late game crit.

A lot of champions are not fun to play against. I do not find it hard to play against her. Try her out and learn when you can go in and kill her.

OperationDEEZ15 votes

Viktor Obliterate!

Nuclear Panda7 votes

Every time I say "stomachache" I try to put a pause in between "stomach" and "ache" cuz it sounds weird when I say "stomach-cake"

Aych Pii2 votes

Being counterable doesn't make her not toxic. Moreover, none of that stops bot lane double kills. You can dominate her in lane all you want as just about any mid, you can never trust bot lane not to feed her. And I say that as someone who plays adc and support more frequently than mid.

Icestar11864 votes

Ping mia whenever she goes into the fog of war. Also ward the river.

Aych Pii2 votes

If only that was all it took. As a bot laner I've had mid laners forget to do this countless times, and as a mid laner people tend to just not notice. I'm not exactly diamond or anything, but...

Ancestor0076 votes

So its not Kata being broken, its your team not paying attention

Shifune7 votes

I'm comfortable with Leblanc because I know how to play against her. I run movespeed quints on champions that have a skill that also boosts their movespeed. So even if Leblanc lands her Q, I can put myself out of range of her W. Champions that I frequently beat Leblanc with are Orianna, Karma, and Lulu. With Lulu you can just polymorph her after she lands Q and walk away or throw pix on her after the polymorph and Q. Trade successfully won. It's so funny. People keep saying that you can't react with Leblanc. I call BS.

Alorasence2 votes

Katarina is going to be changed because of a drooling mass of people who are somehow unable to crowd control her....

She's squishy and offers no utility for her team.

Quit wasting your cc on champions that aren't her.

Facy4 votes

Lucky most hard CCs are instant like Kats dmg.... oh wait

toxıc sIut2 votes

It's a 2.5 second channel. Even if your reaction time is shit you can still manage to CC her before it's even half over.

Or just, you know, pick someone with near-immediate CC you dingle Ahri Annie Chogath TwistedFate Malzahar Azir Ziggs Viktor all have silences/stuns/whatevers that stop her ult

CGJung4 votes

{quoted}

I think the reason I'm okay with LB is that she can only do it to one person at a time. Not saying a super fed LB can't chunk the hell out of your team with double distortion but then again that's fed.

I personally think Katarina's ability to wipe people from the face of the earth is far more toxic since with a low ping she can literally get a triple+ in under a second.

On topic, I agree. Her kit is NOT fun to lane against. Granted I think doing some custom games with a buddy can help you learn how to counter her. I just wait for her to W, since my ping is too high to respond DURING distortion, then harass the hell out of her knowing I'm safe for like 8 seconds.

I Agree with this guy. I don't think Leblanc is toxic because she is a one target assassin with fairly long cooldowns. She can kill one person very fast and that's it. Katarina is far more toxic since her passive allows her to turn one kill into an ace and get fed easily, even if she was behind in lane.

48983507DEL12 votes

{quoted}

I think the reason I'm okay with LB is that she can only do it to one person at a time. Not saying a super fed LB can't chunk the hell out of your team with double distortion but then again that's fed.

I personally think Katarina's ability to wipe people from the face of the earth is far more toxic since with a low ping she can literally get a triple+ in under a second.

On topic, I agree. Her kit is NOT fun to lane against. Granted I think doing some custom games with a buddy can help you learn how to counter her. I just wait for her to W, since my ping is too high to respond DURING distortion, then harass the hell out of her knowing I'm safe for like 8 seconds.

I normally play either Annie or Zed against her, and they work marvelously against her.

With Annie, survive till 6 by farming with Q. Once you hit six, your full burst does more damage than hers because she probably won't be able to hit an E on you. Wait for her to jump on you, activating E before she does (it's fairly obvious to tell since you can farm out of her range), then use your Q to make sure the stun lands before using R+W+Ignite. She wil die or be forced to flash. You also outscale her, so once you get items you can easily 1 burst her while she will have to deal with your HP or mr, since I reccomend either rushing RoA or Abyssal Scepter. If you get behind, Banshee's Veil is wonderful, since Annie only needs 4 AP items to still do loads upon loads of damage.

With Zed, you need to survive till you hit lvl 3. Just farm with Q. After this, you can easily trade with her by waiting for her to engage on you, then tossing your shadow (W) where she used her distortion (W). Activate your E, since she will either take the damage from being right next to you or next to your shadow, then Q to get more damage. If she is low after a trade or two, reactive W to get next to her and auto-attack, procing your passive and probably procing hers. Ignite her and she will be forced to flash or die. If you get behind, just roam to other lanes and splitpush, since you will be able to 1 burst her in due time.

Slowtogo7 votes

I think the reason I'm okay with LB is that she can only do it to one person at a time.

item 3070 Veigar item 3070

Athenes Lulu2 votes

There are billions of ways to stop Katarina (especially during her ult), and she is not that hard to catch. She can't 100-0 you 1200+ range away.

When she's alone, free of wards, minions, or teammates, her escape becomes shitty.

NateKiller18 votes

I agree. She has to make a mistake for you to punish her. It's a toxic kit.

But If we're talking frustrating levels, then Teemo needs a look too. #nerfteemo

WillHealForHonor4 votes

all u guys upvote on nerf teemo.. the worst champ in the game lol :P

Remlap122313 votes

Nobody remembers Yorick Mori.

Rustling Bush5 votes

{quoted}

I agree. She has to make a mistake for you to punish her. It's a toxic kit.

But If we're talking frustrating levels, then Teemo needs a look too. #nerfteemo

teemo can't do much outside of lane or in team fights, thats what it means to be a lane bully. however lb can burst and jump back to safety, thats toxic.

Jasiwel7 votes

Out of the group, I'd say #3 is the best solution. It'll give the player a "GOTCHA BITCH" feeling, while also making LeBlanc a better choice for CC-less champions. In other words, people will be less inclined to pick her into Xerath/Viktor/etc.

Penta Penguin7 votes

Isn't beating LeBlancs and Zeds entry-level mid laner shit?

DJ Hatsune Miku7 votes

The main issue with this is only one ability (Sans ulted Q) is targeted. QR doesn't do a ton of damage even when fed so she has to hit W or E to kill someone which are skill shots. Not to mention the whole argument about LeBlanc involves her being fed. It's not exactly hard to deal with her or avoid feeding her if you follow these simple tips.

  1. Respect the burst - No seriously. Don't be a jerk, don't try to play forward vs her and give her easy damage.
  2. Pick accordingly - If LB is unbanned and you don't play her, especially if you're lower elo, you can expect someone to pick her cause word on the street is she's OP. Cho'gath, Heimer, and pretty much every champ with good wave clear or tankiness very much ruins her day. My go to pick is cho since W completely ruins her day, R gets you tanky as heck, and Q+E help you shove LB to turret which forces her to level W to not miss tons of gold and lowers her overall burst. If you pick before her just play champs that don't suck at pushing or play something with long range. I have had a lot of Lux picks get LB played vs her and I just hang back and play safe and she doesn't get anywhere.
  3. Build accordingly - If you're a mage go RoA over tear or chalice, bruisery thing go abyssal, or ad go hexdrinker. It's not hard.
  4. Don't be a dick - Kinda like point one but it needs to be reiterated. Don't think you can bully her around, don't play mad aggressive and eat minion damage+q poke, and don't push endlessly and not ward. Ping missings, play safe, and force her to earn her gold the hard way, last hitting. Too many players think to win league games you need to be 15-0 by 10 minutes and play so, so needlessly aggressive that they're extremely punishable and then wonder why they're getting 'camped' or 'how lucky LB is she got away with 10%' or 'lag' or whatever the excuse of the game is.

These aren't going to make you win every game vs LB but you can't win all the time. The removal of her silence made her SOOO much more easy to fight and honestly if you think she's bad now she's not even remotely as oppressive and obnoxious as she once was. At least now you can turn around and try to cc/do your own combo while she does hers, back then you literally had to sit there and wait for LB to let you play before you could even push a button.

Also people can play w/e they want in normals. I play Yorick in normals. I play Panth in normals. Saying someone is a jerk for playing LB in normals is a really loaded statement. Maybe they're learning her for ranked or just like playing her. You don't get to dictate what is fun for other players and even if you don't like it they're entitled to their opinions. League is a game of strategy, even if you don't like playing vs someone you can use the experience to get better as well as try out new ways to deal with LB because normals don't have as much consequence. Every strategy has a counter, develop yours vs LB by playing against her more.

She's in a fine spot and is a result of a perceived power spike despite her actual power not being as high as everyone says. Lux can 100-0 you from across a lane as well as chunk an entire team in teamfights. Malz can point and click murder someone, Swain is a huge bully and gets really tanky, and Cassi is a turret of absurd dps. Why don't we see these champs more?

FafliX1 votes

Or just play Quinn. Quinn is THE LB hard counter, because she can just E right as LB Ws. Her E will then interrupt LBs W. And since Quinn deals even more damage early than LB, you will just get her to ~30% HP the first time she tries to combo you.

DJ Hatsune Miku1 votes

The main problem of Quinn vs LB is that Quinn isn't an amazing pusher and is a squishy carry. It also leaves you with a double adc comp which can be slightly lacking. You may be able to duel LB early as Quinn but Cho not only shuts her down at all stages he also completely ruins her ability to combo your own carries with his long duration silence. Cho is a nightmarish brick wall of beef LB never wants to be near.

FafliX1 votes

Well of cause. Cho pretty much destorys every assassin. I stiill think Quinn is really strong against her even later on, since you could just peel for her other carries as well. And you usually don´t build her like an ADC, at least I don´t. I get 2-3 defensive items every game, I play her more like a bruiser/anti-carry. Quinn´s lategame is really underrated. She is just as strong as an Irelia later on.

Troy2426216 votes

TL;DR: my ultimate point here: LeBlanc is powerful, difficult to react to and has a heavily skewed risk to rewards proportion. What makes this infuriating is that her counterplay just isn't rewarding. If you react properly, she still isn't heavily punished as frequently as she should be.

Long Version

I'd vote for number three. yeah LB has counterplay but it's horribly unrewarding and is way harder to perform than it is for LB to do her combo. This results in two things: Unequal effort and unequal reward.

Unequal effort is frustrating because LeBlanc puts in little effort to take nearly have of your health bar in one .6 sec combo, but you have to have extremely good reflexes to react. To be specific, the average human requires .2 sec to recognize a threat, let alone react. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it harder than what LB has to do? Without question.

Unequal reward is what makes this a problem. Can unequal effort be okay? Yes, it actually can, depending on the rewards. We saw the low risk and high reward proportions for LeBlanc's combo, but how about her counterplay? It essentially amounts to "Okay, you're not deleted instantly, but you're low on health. Now you get to back before my low CDs are up again to finish you off."

Solution number 3 is good, because it reminds me of a certain other AP mid assassin that rustles jimmies and snowballs like mad. Katarina. Annoying? Yeah. Hard to use? Nope, just hard to master. Easy to react to? Mehhh, depends on how the Kat player plays. However, one thing is certain. If you react to Katarina properly, SHE BECOMES VERY VULNERABLE. She probably used Shunpo to go in, and with no reset, that leaves her with very little options to escape with and you just stopped her primary source of damage. If she doesn't die, she sure as Hell isn't going to win the engagement. With LeBlanc, she'll just immediately teleport back out.

Señor Karthus6 votes

Galio

Ulquiorra9955 votes

True, Galio counters LB. As he does with most of the AP champs. But should I pick Galio every game outside of ranked where I can ban her, just because there is a chance enemy has a LeBlanc? And it's a hefty chance, since out of 10 games (speaking from experience in normals) midlane will probably be LB, LB, Zed, LB, some other character, Zed, Zed, LB, other character, LB or something like that.

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

Of the last 10 normal games i played, the enemy midlaners were Heimerdinger, Ahri, Ziggs, Cassio, Nidalee, Azir, Veigar, Xerath, Talon, Kat. I have to go 17 games back to have an enemy Zed. I have to go 25+ to get see an enemy Leblanc.

your experience in normals, even if exaggerated, is unusual.

Blainezy6 votes

Her passive cool down needs to be increased to way more than one minute. Maybe at least 2.

Kieferr5 votes

Hey, remember back when she had a silence? And now 11 months later since that was removed suddenly u complain she's op when she's been the same since that patch. Maybe u just suck at the game. Nothing else

Ulquiorra99516 votes

sigh You didn't even bother reading the first sentence I wrote, did you?

OP or not, it won't change the fact that she is one of the most frustrating things to play against. I would gladly have her buffed in other areas if it means I actually get a real chance to punish her if she fucks up or generally react to her combo.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

he might have worded it poorly, but his argument makes sense.

When she had the silence, you COULD NOT react (Q-R-W got her in and out safely with no chance of any CC catching her). Now that the silence is removed, you can actually CC her in the middle of her combo.

Buffing her is a whole other problem. Her AP ratios are pretty high but mostly single target damage. If you buff her damage in exchange for nerfing her mobility, that means you can kill her multiple times in lane but she can still 1 shot you. As of now, a Leblanc that cant assasinate isnt very useful to her team - this type of change would open her assassination window, even when behind.

and to your original post, i dont know how good Option 3 would be. it would be the most strategically diverse change, but i find that if i distorted in and got hit by hard CC, im pretty much dead anyway.

Spacefight0r5 votes

Secret to beating LeBlanc: Push the wave. Make her use her W for wave clear or lose farm.

Reazale2 votes

I will make sure to do it as Veigar and see how it fare pushing the lane against a leblanc.

FafliX1 votes

A little tip: Don´t pick Veigar into LB and don´t pick Veigar if you don´t know your lane opponent.

Icestar11862 votes

Yeah, Veigar only does well if you know the matchup and can farm safely.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

Also, fix that chain hitbox, I don't care if it's nerfed or not, I want to know if I successfully evaded her chain (that stretches all the way across the Pacific).

Otherwise, good summed thread.

LoLKiru4 votes

A good place to start would be simply adding a return delay on her distortion. Then seeing how she is from there (In my opinion its bad to nerf so many things at once, otherwise you run the risk of pulling a Riot and overnerfing someone).

It would make it significantly easier to fight her in lane (since the window to trade with her would become much wider).

While we're at it fix the hitbox on her E, sometimes it connects when it should miss, and then others it misses when it should connect.

Zirzon4 votes

What if we made her W travel speed slightly slower? This would allow for a greater window for counterplay, and give an opportunity to dodge.

AquariusGine4 votes

I wish they would change Katarina as well.. beat her in lane 0-3 and she proceeds to hard carry game

Ancestor0072 votes

Suggestion: Hard cc. At least 30 % of the champion pool has a form of hard cc. She is very squishy, so she is dead once she gets cc-ed

Grim R3aper3 votes

remember when she had a silence

SantanaTheSlick 3 votes

she needs actual mana costs

Akesgeroth3 votes

Yesterday, I saw a post where someone said that the reason Leblanc and Zed are broken is their ability to teleport back to safety effortlessly after blowing their full damage combo on someone. I'm inclined to agree.

Hell, killing Zed is a nightmare unless you can CC him from start to finish. He pops his shadow in one direction and walks in the other, what do you do? Chase him? He teleports to his shadow and gets away. Stay at his shadow? You just let him walk away. There's two of you so you can cover both? Odds are once you're separated he can kill one of you and walk away. Three? Same, he'll just go for the loner.

You need at least four people to stop a running Zed, and that's on top of his absurd burst. Leblanc has similar issues with her clone added on top tp confuse you.

Kapppaccino2 votes

I always thought what if we made it so she takes 15% bonus damage while her w portal is up. So she w's back sooner ( meaning longer time it's on CD) and if she doesn't, you can burst her. Same with zed and his shadows.

JnxxMrJamak2 votes

LB isn't even that bad.. S2 morgana was the worst.

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