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"Pulls" in general are unhealthy and need sufficient counterplay.

Tentakill Myself··11 votes·1,213 views

Blitzcrank Thresh Nautilus - These champions are all problematic and have ruled the support META based on how trivial they are. If any one of them lands a Q, all of their abilities are then Guarenteed to hit the enemy champion, while also screwing up the enemies positioning AND giving your team an easy pick, even if it is the first Q you have landed the entire game. Some may say "Buy a Banshees omg ez counter" but any spell cast on you will detonate banshees for 35 seconds, and it will not even begin to refresh until you leave combat.

Picture this. You have a support Blitzcrank on your team. He feeds 3 kills to the enemy ADC and misses 10 rocket grabs. Your adc is really behind in farm and lost lane. BUT WAIT! Blitzcrank somehow manages to miraculously land a rocket grab, pulling the enemy ADC and permanently CCing them with high base damages to satiate the hunger of your ADC.

Riot, this type of gameplay is extremely unhealthy. You're granting people wins based on how many times they spammed a grab and landed it. Besides banshees and high mobility, there is no form of counterplay to these tedious spells. You CAN QSS a Thresh hook, but he can still pull himself to you I believe and fling you back.

These champions should have more punishment for not landing a vital skillshot. Please Riot, I'm tired of having games turned around by a lucky grab.

16 Comments

Gordo San4 votes

High risk, high reward.

All those champs are punished when they miss their skillshots. It just depends on what ELO you are playing at. But good players will immediately play more aggressive knowing that those spells are down.

And if you let any pull lose you the game, then you lost the game. It doesn't matter how they won, when they did it, how many times they missed.

You put yourself in a position to lose, and you need to own that.

Too Ton2 votes

It's LOW risk high reward for me..... going up against them is PAINFUL. Who cares if they miss? Thresh hook is like 10 seconds late game. . . . ridiculous. Blitz is longer cooldown but if it hits more devastating. Naut has more than just his hook.

Gordo San4 votes

I still do not see the issue.

All those skills can be blocked, and you can just hide in the minion wave.

And yes 10 seconds late game is very reasonable considering thresh is a support champ. It's not like he is hooking you and solo-ing you to death.

All those hooks still require appropriate follow-up by their team, and that is what the game is about.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gordo San,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqttH1KV,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T10:54:18.256+0000)

All those skills can be blocked, and you can just hide in the minion wave.

"just pink ward the spears", "just CC them"?

really? still going with this logic here?

Gordo San4 votes

Those are some pretty bad comparisons. :p

Hiding in a minion wave is nothing like "just pink ward the spears", "just CC them"?

It takes no mechanics at all to sit in the middle of your wave or have creeps in between you and the pull.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

this argument is soooo bad

its in fact low risk high reward

the thing is that thresh.blitz canb miss 1k hooks and its fine

but if they luck out and get one good hook ... they get the game serwed to them

thats why its a problem ... becuase nor blitz nor thresh dont pay much for it ... they can just spam away till it happens to be a good one ... just like nidaele doesnt aim her spears .. she tosse them in a general direciton till she lands a lucky one and destroys your adc ... and winns the next teamifght

those skills have mostly possitive impact and no downside ... and there are cases where those skills can win a game

so those champions shouldnt support the playstyle of "spam the hook and wait till you get lucky"

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gordo San,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqttH1KV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-04T10:35:49.882+0000)

High risk, high reward.

All those champs are punished when they miss their skillshots. It just depends on what ELO you are playing at. But good players will immediately play more aggressive knowing that those spells are down.

And if you let any pull lose you the game, then you lost the game. It doesn't matter how they won, when they did it, how many times they missed.

You put yourself in a position to lose, and you need to own that.

There is no risk, stop acting like these champions are sitting ducks when they miss their Q. Pros miss hooks all the time and don't get severely punished because the rest of the champion's kit is also good. Naut has plenty of cc ignoring Q, Thresh has a lot of utility and other forms of CC ignoring his Q, and Blitz still has a knock up and an aoe disrupt if you ignore his Q. All 3 of these champions are also tanky with decent damage in addition to what ever else their kit provides. You abuse these champions, so I'm sure you're well aware of how useful they are even after missing.

Gordo San1 votes

You abuse these champions, so I'm sure you're well aware of how useful they are even after missing.

I play these champs, so i see the weakness. I also play Jiinx (the champ with no escapes) and face these pull champs a lot.

And TBH i still do not see the issue. There are 3 champs, and they can go on your side or the enemy side.

So you say blitz kit is op, but is it more/less op then thresh or naut?

Pulls are not gamebreaking -you can dodge them, and/or they can simply miss. -they can hit minons/monsters. -There are spell shields.

So many champions have escapes/disengage built into them, so it's only fair to have other champions have engage built into them.

There is no risk, stop acting like these champions are sitting ducks when they miss their Q.

They are not sitting ducks. But there is more counter-play knowing that the skill is down.

For Blitzcrank , he only has knock-up punch and silence. Both of them he needs to be close up to cast. This forces him to use W, which slows him down after.

For Thresh as soon as he misses Q, his engage is gone. Unless he walks up to you (like above) to flay you into ult

For Nautilus, once his Q is down, his escape is also down. So he either forces an engage with ult (which has travel time), and if he does, you know he cannot hook + auto you to cc train.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i like to call them "free initiates".

Rıots Bad Client1 votes

I remember I was amumu, I intentionally got pulled by the enemy blitz crank.

I mean, if blitz or naut pulls a tank, its a huge mistake on them possibly costing them a fight.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I remember I was amumu, I intentionally got pulled by the enemy blitz crank.

I mean, if blitz or naut pulls a tank, its a huge mistake on them possibly costing them a fight.

i deliberately try to body block pulls with heavy bruisers and heavy cc tanks.

there is your risk. because pulling one of those guys into your team is not a pleasant experience for them.

Lugg1 votes

Minion shield. There is your counterplay.

John JJ Schmidt1 votes

Keeping the wave between you and them is always the primary solution, but that will inevitably fail, and you'll have to save your carry. I don't have time to list everything for every support, so we'll focus my favorites: Thresh, Braum and Janna.

Blitz lands a Rocket Grab on your carry: Thresh: Lantern your ADC back out, Death Sentence and Flay if they try to keep chasing. Braum: Stand Behind Me + Unbreakable to block the burst, Winter's Bite on the way out. Janna: Eye of the Storm your carry, Howling Gale and Zephyr their carry.

Thresh lands a Death Sentence on your carry: Braum: Winter's Bite as he pulls in, then Stand Behind Me + Unbreakable to prevent the followup Flay, as well as the burst from their carry, from hitting your carry. Janna: If you are fast enough, your Howling Gale will hit Thresh before his Death Sentence even lands, interrupting him and killing it mid-flight. If you aren't fast enough, you can Howling Gale Thresh mid-pull and that will interrupt him and stop his pull. Then Eye of the Storm your carry, Zephyr Thresh, and harass him back out of range.

Nautilus lands a Dredge Line on your carry: Thresh: Flay him or Death Sentence him as he is pulling to your carry to interrupt his pull and prevent his Riptide followup. Braum: Once again, Stand Behind Me + Unbreakable. This will prevent the Riptide, as well as any burst from their carry, from hitting your carry. Janna: Once again, you can interrupt with Howling Gale, preventing him from ever reaching your carry, leaving him outside of Riptide range. Eye of the Storm your carry, Zephyr Nautilus and harass him back out of range.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Mordekaiser thanks for the gap closer

Mongoose1 votes

OP just got rekt by a blitz

Der Lindwurm1 votes

What about at high level play? I'm noticing that hookers are EXTREMELY strong in low level play where landing other kinds of support CC can stop enemies from getting away when they're low or during ganks (Morgana Q, Braum or Nami R, Leona E then Q, etc.) but hooks are a pretty much guaranteed 100-0 any time they land on a bot laner early on since they not only reposition but CC for an extended period of time with an easy combo. They are unbeatable as a way to peel and there is pretty much no risk at all since they can be used at very long range.

They can be dealt with if you and your lane mate are good at using your wave and applying pressure, but still, hookers can punish the slightest mistake in positioning infinitely harder than a Morgana Q or Lulu W. They're more powerful than a lot of ults.

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