Tanks do as much damage as carries.

God Went MIA·Jan 6, 2016·23 votes·15,091 views

Tanks should be tanks, and that should be their job. They should be designed to function as the front line, peeling FOR the carries, not being the carry. Right now tanks like darius, garen, and so many more build over 4k HP and still 3 hit squishies, or in darius' case kill one then kill them all. Tanks right now are unkillable, fine, let them be, but for the love of god why does a 5k HP garen have 500 movement speed and do 70k damage in a game after going even in lane.

51 Comments

SerevasJan 6, 201613 votes

Darius and Garen aren't tanks. They were originally bruisers that later got changes into "juggernauts"

The reason that they're able to do that kind of damage is because people don't understand their weaknesses. They get kited all to hell and can't do anything about it. All you need is slows, not even hard CC and to kite backwards, they don't touch you, and instead take damage while accomplishing nothing.

Psi21Jan 6, 20163 votes

And there are bruisers who have gap closers. And those without gap closers have hooks or in the case of Garen a ghost like ability on their judgement to prevent creep blocking which we all hate now.

SerevasJan 6, 20163 votes

Okay, you have Bruisers, and you have Juggernauts. They're two different topics.

Bruisers look like Irelia or the old Jax . Renekton is a bruiser.

Juggernauts are Darius Garen Skarner Illaoi Mordekaiser If you want to count Garen's speed boost as a gap closer be my guest, but I'd say you need to redefine what you consider gap closers. Juggernauts are actually defined by having a lack of gap closers and mobility. Garen is the only one that defies this slightly with his movement speed, but outside of that good luck.

Those who don't have gap closers have hooks. Blitzcrank Thresh Nautilus Are not what I would call bruisers. I can only assume you mean Darius' pull, which is actually necessary for the champion to function because if he gets slowed he's not doing any damage. at least if he's in range he can pull people to him. It's why Illaoi pulls champions to her, Garen gets to run quick to try and catch someone, Skarner gets a speed bump and a slow. They're necessary tools to prevent the champion from being entirely useless against slows, even though they're still rendered nearly useless by them against a competent team.

Psi21Jan 6, 20164 votes

Skarner has movement Crystalline Exoskeleton. And Illaoi and Darius have hook like abilities.

and Morde after his nerf and terrible rework is R.I.P. (and a lot of ppl are happy about that.)

SerevasJan 6, 20166 votes

Did you even bother reading my post? I specifically stated those things in my post, and explained why they exist.

Why is Lulu considered the greatest counter to juggernauts? Speed up allies, slow down opponents, shield any damage that might happen, prevent any actual kill.

It literally just takes slows to render them useless.

TalisidDec 2, 20161 votes

Nautilus is a tank though. His damage is relatively laughable but he has probably the most multi-target CC and Peel ability in the entire game. He's like a textbook Tank (or "Vaunguard" if you want to use the newfangled role terms). Same with Thresh . They're job is to lock down targets to be killed or to protect their carries.

Blitz is just Blitz. Even under the new class system he's 'unclassified'.

CrossetteJan 6, 20169 votes

juggernauts

Oh, you mean the class of champions that build one damage item, then go full tank and still three-shot people as noted in the OP?

Nobody liked that set of reworks.

Critmaster GarenJan 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Oh, you mean the class of champions that build one damage item, then go full tank and still three-shot people as noted in the OP?

Nobody liked that set of reworks.

i see you rather like to get 3 shot by an assassin or a vi whos ulting into you from across the lane.

now whats more fair to fight, a champ you can see walking up to you and gives you a time to escape and avoid him, or one who kills you before you know what happened?

CrossetteJan 6, 20163 votes

How about I side with the killable ones?

No but really, I honestly preferred fighting juggernauts for a while until I started playing tanks. Then I realized that puny assassins have nothing on me. Zac

iHerringJan 6, 20164 votes

I'd like to see the assassin or Vi that 3 shots people by building 5/6 tank items.

Critmaster GarenJan 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to see the assassin or Vi that 3 shots people by building 5/6 tank items.

not tank items, but bruiser items.

item 1001 item 3078 item 3053 item 3742 item 3748 item 3022

ult damage (rank3 - 450 + 1.4 Bonus ad), then 400 - 500 damage Hydra active + 300 damage from steraks empowered sheen passive on triforce + 100 damage from a charged dead mans + 250 (?) attack damage = above 1k damage from the first hit after her ult, then auto attack resets from excessive force.

most squishy Champions have between 1800 to 2k health lategame.

not sure if you can fully 3 shot a squishy with the ult/auto attack/excessive force chain, but youll definitely get Close enough to finish the guy off with a q. youre welcome.

SerevasJan 6, 20165 votes

Like them or not, they're not tanks. They also usually build in having light resistances and heavy hp.

item 3071 item 3742 item 3053 item 3065 item 3242 then whatever you need more 9/10 it's not going to be high defensive stat items as the hp is more beneficial.

I sure do wish there was some form of damage to deal with hp stacking champions. Kind of like % max hp damage, shame no champions have that. Ekko Fiora Garen Gnar Gragas Jayce Kalista KogMaw Maokai Mordekaiser Shyvana Singed TahmKench Trundle Varus Vayne Zac Poppy Sejuani Malzahar Zed

Even a % of their current HP would help burn them down. DrMundo Elise Evelynn Kindred XinZhao item 3153 item 3151

Maybe you could use their HP against them LeeSin

Sure would suck if it was a % of their missing HP, higher the pool to take from the higher the damage ends up being Ekko Elise Fizz Garen Jinx LeeSin Morgana Riven Volibear

I forgot, there's lots of ways to deal with HP stacking, which is what their builds are 90% of the time unless you picked a single damage type against them. To prevent the 3 shotting you could also not opt to put your carries on the front line, but that's just a thought.

CrossetteJan 6, 20164 votes

The thing is, Darius builds tons of HP because it makes his Q ridiculously powerful (even more so)

I don't ever see Garen stacking HP. It's almost always item 3071 into situational tank items, such as item 3742 , item 3110 and item 3102

Edit: Why the hell is item 3110 here

SerevasJan 6, 20162 votes

Why would you ever build Banshee's Veil on Garen over Spirit Visage? item 3065

The typical Garen build I've seen has always been item 3071 item 3742 item 3065 Then moving into situational choices, often containing item 3068 item 3143 item 3083 item 3075 item 3748 item 3053

I've never seen frozen heart as half the huge chunk of mana is wasted and you'd be far better served with either Randuin's or Thornmail. The 20% CDR isn't very valuable as you typically waste 10% when you build Spirit Visage. If you're really hurting for the extra 10% CDR, you can opt to build item 3190 item 3142 item 3158 , but Garen's CDs aren't really that problematic to require an extra 10%.

Buffing your passive with higher HP numbers is huge for Garen, it's why he stacks the HP in the first place. Furthermore to not take spirit visage on Garen is really dumb since the passive amplifies his passive even further than just hp would in the first place.

CrossetteJan 6, 20163 votes

Wait, I'm tired as all hell and about to go to bed.

I don't know why I listed frozen heart... Maybe I'm going off of memory and only thinking of some guy I faced recently?

Also, situational is a massive keyword there in reference to Veil.

AmonTheFallenNov 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Like them or not, they're not tanks. They also usually build in having light resistances and heavy hp.

then whatever you need more 9/10 it's not going to be high defensive stat items as the hp is more beneficial.

I sure do wish there was some form of damage to deal with hp stacking champions. Kind of like % max hp damage, shame no champions have that.

Even a % of their current HP would help burn them down.

Maybe you could use their HP against them

Sure would suck if it was a % of their missing HP, higher the pool to take from the higher the damage ends up being

I forgot, there's lots of ways to deal with HP stacking, which is what their builds are 90% of the time unless you picked a single damage type against them. To prevent the 3 shotting you could also not opt to put your carries on the front line, but that's just a thought.

Then you realize that tank have the HP also with MR and armor and the % isnt all that massive and their regen absolutly covers it. % current doesnt kill them just bring them low and then they kill you. With Lee you can anticipate and bait Lee to kick you and not the carry and you just won the fight. As much as you were sarcastic was your post stupid.

EschetonNov 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Then you realize that tank have the HP also with MR and armor and the % isnt all that massive and their regen absolutly covers it. % current doesnt kill them just bring them low and then they kill you. With Lee you can anticipate and bait Lee to kick you and not the carry and you just won the fight. As much as you were sarcastic was your post stupid.

Mate, you are replying to a 2 year old post. Where did you even find it?

SerevasNov 21, 20171 votes

Serevas (NA) - 2 years ago

Are you seriously that desperate to trash talk that you grave dig a 2 year old post, not 2 months, literally 2 years ago. The amount of digging to find this post that you must have done is insane. Go outside dude the world is waiting.

PennsJan 6, 20168 votes

You should be careful with the word "tank" kek

panD3MONiumJan 6, 20166 votes

They are bruisers, not actual tanks. Tanks like Bruam and Alistar take more damage and offer more peel. "Juggernauts" like Garen and Darius gets poked down easily early game and late game Garen snared or slowed can die easily. Its only when he gets away and heals from his passive is why noobs have trouble with him. Darius is simple. He strives in a team fight and his Q heals him making him seem he has more health than he actually has. Darius has no mobility or escapes so just poke him and down and if your low just stay out of the fight because if he gets his ult off on you your only hurting your team.

5050BSJan 6, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=AP BlackAngel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wpKZt24c,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-06T21:30:43.970+0000)

They are bruisers, not actual tanks. Tanks like Bruam and Alistar take more damage and offer more peel. "Juggernauts" like Garen and Darius gets poked down easily early game and late game Garen snared or slowed can die easily. Its only when he gets away and heals from his passive is why noobs have trouble with him. Darius is simple. He strives in a team fight and his Q heals him making him seem he has more health than he actually has. Darius has no mobility or escapes so just poke him and down and if your low just stay out of the fight because if he gets his ult off on you your only hurting your team.

He is talking about champs like Amumu Braum Chogath DrMundo Malphite Nasus Renekton Sejuani Shyvana Sion TahmKench Trundle Udyr Volibear That only need to build Def items and will win

Mecha MaIphiteJan 6, 20162 votes

most of those are still bruisers

insaiyanbaccaJan 6, 20164 votes

cho mundo nasus renek shyv sion trundle voli and udyr are all bruisers m8, and amumu is more of an aoe damage tank. and tahm's damage is retarded.the only real argumeants you have here are tahm malph braum and sej, and sej's clear is really crappy malphite only really does damage early game unless full ap. braum doesn't do very much damage he wins through his cc and immense defensive potential. and tahm honestly imo is to strong so the only strong argument here is really tahm, and sej kinda.

WoonStruckApr 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

cho mundo nasus renek shyv sion trundle voli and udyr are all bruisers m8, and amumu is more of an aoe damage tank. and tahm's damage is retarded.the only real argumeants you have here are tahm malph braum and sej, and sej's clear is really crappy malphite only really does damage early game unless full ap. braum doesn't do very much damage he wins through his cc and immense defensive potential. and tahm honestly imo is to strong so the only strong argument here is really tahm, and sej kinda.

Honestly, I'd compare Amu and Sej, though. Their goals are pretty similar, and Sej's only effective difference are a few more slows in exchange for the % damage Amu offers.

Sir YamazukiJan 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

He is talking about champs like That only need to build Def items and will win

No, he's talking about champs like Garen and Darius, which he specifically mentioned in his post, which I guess you didn't even bother reading.

Buttered ButterJan 14, 20166 votes

To hell with the down voters, I agree. Tanks are WAY over the line currently. There is no reason why a tank should EVER be 2nd in damage overall. EVER EVER EVER.

Riot's new items have UNbalanced the game. Next season will be super un-fun if they don't do something.

TiniNinjaJan 29, 20165 votes

{quoted}

To hell with the down voters, I agree. Tanks are WAY over the line currently. There is no reason why a tank should EVER be 2nd in damage overall. EVER EVER EVER.

Riot's new items have UNbalanced the game. Next season will be super un-fun if they don't do something.

I totally agree. The Juggernaut update with the items was ridiculous. Hell, even before the update, Spectre's Cowl was pretty aggravating. Now it's like any brain-dead, autistic kid can play these tanks like a pro. Just look at how Worlds played out (C9 Balls insta locking Darus EVERY SINGLE GAME).

Juggernauts, Bruisers, tanks call it whatever you want. Anything with 5k HP and god like resistances, with 500+ MS is a goddamn TANK. These guys have zero counter play and the so called "weakness" of being kitted does next to nothing.

RenailleJan 6, 20165 votes

Then they'd be useless and nobody would have a reason to focus them until everyone else is dead because they present 0 threat. A tank that can only take damage just isn't useful.

Darius and co are not tanks. They are damage dealers who have to build tank items to be useful because they are melee and they'd get blown up otherwise.

ErockandrollJan 6, 20164 votes

How do you measure more damage? Cause most of the time I would assert that doing more damage than the ADC is false, on at least two metrics.

First metric, are you comparing their health bar to your ADC's? Cause to simply put, ADCs can't duel. They are too squishy to duel a Juggernaut that is stacking health and armor. However, that's not an objective measurement of damage. And objective measurement would be how quickly either one can kill the same target with the same defenses.

Second metric, is the total end game damage, And this metric is scewd because many Juggernauts (especially Garen) Are AoE. But a Juggernaut is simply not going to have the same level of Single target damage as an ADC.

Psi21Jan 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How do you measure more damage? Cause most of the time I would assert that doing more damage than the ADC is false, on at least two metrics.

First metric, are you comparing their health bar to your ADC's? Cause to simply put, ADCs can't duel. They are too squishy to duel a Juggernaut that is stacking health and armor. However, that's not an objective measurement of damage. And objective measurement would be how quickly either one can kill the same target with the same defenses.

Second metric, is the total end game damage, And this metric is scewd because many Juggernauts (especially Garen) Are AoE. But a Juggernaut is simply not going to have the same level of Single target damage as an ADC.

Garen can shine even when an ADC Melee should with nearly the same gear.

http://imgur.com/gkC7JsY

WoonStruckApr 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Garen can shine even when an ADC Melee should with nearly the same gear.

http://imgur.com/gkC7JsY

A lot of Garen's damage is execute damage...if you'd pay attention, you'd notice just about anyone with an execute seems to deal absurd amounts of damage in the post-game stats.

Also, garen was put in a game where he'd excel.

The only character with mobility there is Ez, and he didn't get IBG. I'd expect any Garen, no matter how novice, to do well.

As far as melee carries go, its pretty apparent that the Yasuo isn't very good, considering build, and the Tryn's goal obviously wasn't damage.

Psi21Apr 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A lot of Garen's damage is execute damage...if you'd pay attention, you'd notice just about anyone with an execute seems to deal absurd amounts of damage in the post-game stats.

Also, garen was put in a game where he'd excel.

The only character with mobility there is Ez, and he didn't get IBG. I'd expect any Garen, no matter how novice, to do well.

As far as melee carries go, its pretty apparent that the Yasuo isn't very good, considering build, and the Tryn's goal obviously wasn't damage.

wooosh right over your head. The point was that Garen with tank items did more damage than a AD melee whoses kit centers around damaging abilities. IE .... Garen was doing way too much damage compared to Tryn who also built tank items. And most tanks do too much damage for the role they should be playing... which is .... T - A - N - K

Execute abilities... well no worries we have other tanks with that ability too. Go Cho. The game is stupid broken with the balancing team giving way too much weighted power to tank champions. Often with the most CC, great damaging abilities and best passive stat increases. Proof is in the pudding as they had to increase ADC item power to bandaid their Tankish Frankenstein monsters.

(oh by the way... way to necro)

WoonStruckApr 6, 20164 votes

{quoted}

wooosh right over your head. The point was that Garen with tank items did more damage than a AD melee whoses kit centers around damaging abilities. IE .... Garen was doing way too much damage compared to Tryn who also built tank items. And most tanks do too much damage for the role they should be playing... which is .... T - A - N - K

Execute abilities... well no worries we have other tanks with that ability too. Go Cho. The game is stupid broken with the balancing team giving way too much weighted power to tank champions. Often with the most CC, great damaging abilities and best passive stat increases. Proof is in the pudding as they had to increase ADC item power to bandaid their Tankish Frankenstein monsters.

(oh by the way... way to necro)

Tryn is all about scaling his auto attacks. He bought absolutely no items that scaled his auto attacks. He has base damage on ONE ability. Why the hell would you expect him to out-damage someone who has base damage on 3 abilities, and a huge execute as one of them?

Also, Garen isn't a tank. Being 'tanky' =/= 'tank' as far as gaming goes. Juggernauts are essentially melee carries that rely on HP and damage. Meanwhile ADCs, such as tryn, rely on steroids and scaling their auto attacks. Garen doing damage is exactly what's intended.

Cho doesn't have execute damage, he has flat true damage.

They didn't have to increase ADC item power, btw. They did that to give diversity, not power. They just added power for absolutely no reason because they have a hard-on for ADCs.

napkins40Sep 27, 20164 votes

Darius can build spirit visage into sunfire, get solo killed twice early game, miss fifty minions, and still 1v2 anyone immobile. With no effort whatsoever. If he's good (if you can call a darius player that) he will never miss the heal for his q and will just be unstoppable.

Maximum MordeJan 6, 20163 votes

This is not a tank.

http://www.military-today.com/apc/type_96_apc.jpg

This is a tank.

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m1a2_abrams_l5.jpg

Can you spot the difference?

Psi21Jan 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wpKZt24c,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-01-06T21:39:34.891+0000)

This is not a tank.

http://www.military-today.com/apc/type_96_apc.jpg

This is a tank.

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m1a2_abrams_l5.jpg

Can you spot the difference?

Is that first picture an APC or a bruiser?

ErockandrollJan 6, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Is that first picture an APC or a bruiser?

The first armored Vehicle looks like a troop transport.

So it would be Tahm Kench.

Critmaster GarenJan 6, 20163 votes

op. i think the basic issue youre not understanding here is, that Garen Darius Illaoi Mordekaiser Skarner are carries.

their weak point is that they can only operate in melee range, and that they have comparably weak mobility tools to get there. they usually need actual tanks and supports to set them up and be able to get into a fight, as they have almost no ability to engage on their own. even less than most bruisers like Jax or for example. if you dont get into arms length of them theyre entirely ineffective. so in return theyre geared for high base damage to be able to build much more tanky than their mobile counterparts.

for example Riven Yasuo Fiora this is the type of champion they should be compared to. now imagine these guys squishy as they are with only mediocre speed boosts, if any mobility tool at all. they would absolutely suck.

so instead of putting their power budget into mobility, they just put it into defense.

ZechiasDec 2, 20163 votes

Yep, the hybridization of tank items with dps items ruined the game. Riot you're fucking retarded.

EschetonDec 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yep, the hybridization of tank items with dps items ruined the game. Riot you're fucking retarded.

Why are you necromancing a dead thread that was rubbish in the first place?

Colgate GatorJan 6, 20162 votes

One could say..."Where's your God now?"

... :D

Psi21Apr 6, 20162 votes

Tryn's ult gives great sustain and damage and a steriod.... so try again. And remember neither Garen or Tryn had damage items. Simply put tanks..bruisers...Jugs...what ever you want to call them are stupid broken in damage. If you are a true tank.... nothing wrong with doing just the damage Braum dishes out in a game.

Here is another example you little nasty troll.

http://imgur.com/a/p8Rdl

See both pictures in the above link use the right arrow to thumb to the second picture.

Zac shouldn't have a 19/8/16 kill ratio

And shouldn't be doing as much damage as Karthus when he is build full tank.

Seriously... it is like no one gets it... tanks are doing way too much damage.

FızzJan 6, 20161 votes

why 2 posts?

Psi21Jan 6, 20161 votes

Riot too has on occasion called Bruiser's interchangeable to tanks.

See ZenonTheStoic explanation: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4194717

"Warwick can go either way, but if we want life steal to be a meaningful mechanic on his new kit, I firmly believe he belongs in the former camp: tanks."

Ask yourself do you think Warwick is a tank or a bruiser?

If you said both but it determines how he builds. Well then you just admitted Bruiser's are interchangeable with the name tanks.

We call Cho a tank. But he has a 1:1 Ratio ability, AoE damage and True damage Ult. Would you argue he can build AP Bruiser or is he only a tank?

Big LincolnJan 6, 20164 votes

Cho can build literally anything and do well

WoonStruckApr 6, 20161 votes

Sorry to tell you, but EVERYONE does too much damage right now.

Its not just tanks. Tanks hardly feel tanky this season unless they get a huge lead or the entire team is lopsided as far as damage type goes.

Damage in general needs nerfs, not just on tanks.

Urf Mode Is LifeSep 27, 20161 votes

lol if you have problems with garen 1 of 2 things are going on

you are playing draft / ranked and didnt counter pick because youre a snob who only plays 1-2 champs
youre playing blind pick in which case why are you crying?