Riven with Courage of Colossus IS NOT OK.

God Went MIA·Nov 29, 2016·58 votes·4,931 views

In case any of you haven't played against it yet, Riven with courage of colossus gets 3x the shields she was balanced to have. It is no longer possible to outrade riven in 90% of match ups, since she has double the shield now once she goes in, and can get out before the shield is gone. She ends up having a health of about 2900 with normal build, and then a constant shield from her E, and triple or more that with the mastery

Her win rates have spiked as well as her play rate, which is very bad considering she is supposed to be balanced based on difficult mechanics.

I have no idea why I even felt I had to back up my statement, because it's obvious to any objective observer that this mastery is broken on riven and not working the way riot intended. This needs to be fixed ASAP

98 Comments

dominusxNov 29, 201635 votes

when i was saying Colosus is gonna be a broken mastery everybody said YOU DONT KNOW ITS STILL EARLY hurr durr like it's hard to make the most basic of math to see it's gonna be cancer on bruisers.

AstôlfoNov 29, 201619 votes

Riven is perfectly fine. CotC isn't. Hence, CotC is getting PBE nerfs, not Riven.

statelesskillerNov 29, 20162 votes

however riven does need some work on that damn fast combo it got even faster after that AA cancel change. even after they fixed it alot of riven say that fast combo is faster then before

AstôlfoNov 29, 20162 votes

No, she is fine. She was balanced after they fixed the AA change's unintended effects.

statelesskillerNov 29, 20161 votes

they made her fast combo (which was already oppressive) even faster and thus MORE oppressive. before there was a brief moment between her stun and her 3rd q that you could react and get out of her range. but now with how much faster the fast combo is you DONT have that small window of opportunity

AstôlfoNov 29, 20163 votes

Her combo is already clearly telegraphed and easily counterable/interruptible. And any credible sources proving said speed increase?

statelesskillerNov 29, 20162 votes

it doesnt matter how clearly telegraphed it is when you get qewaaqaaq she can simply gap close a massive amount of distance almost instantly by animation cancelling

as for sources, i only have what a few riven mains have said, and my own personal experience

before with the usual riven bs of eqwaa you are now stunned for .75 seconds before this meant that right before her 3rd q landed you could get out of with a dash or some such

HOWEVER. after they fixed the thing animation canceling for her was STILL improved because of how easy it is to now cancel AA animations this shaved crucial percents of a second to be able to then qaa and then 3rd q you without you having the ability to dodge it.

one credible source i can give is champion .gg which shows that after patch 6.20 (where the bug was introduced and then fixed post haste because it was broke as FUUUUUQQQQQQ) it shows a steady increase of win rate up to patch 6.23. now many factors can attribute to win rate however i am happy to think that as people got used to the new animation they got better with the combo and faster. and because there was less counterplay to the riven fast combo because you where simply stunned to long and the combo was to fast it allowed her to simply win more.

find a good riven and see for yourself look at the fast combo in patch 6.19 and then in patch 6.21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40GwynGw3fo

the 2nd example is the one we are looking at here. it looks pretty normal right? takes right about 2 seconds to perform the full combo. which means that you are only stunned for alittle under half the time.

however the combo im talking about is the classic eqw where you animation cancel your way right up into there face and stun them so lets look at how long after the 2nd q it takes to actually smash them and hurt them. thats right it took about a entire second to perform just a qaa3rdq

giving you a grand total of .25 of a second to react to her which by the way she just unloaded her entire metaphorical nut onto you (and her passive is total BS) if you do not get out of the knockup in that time frame you wont have the chance to trade back as well as you might want (she literally wins trades by defaults if they are good enough)

however now in my experience you dont even GET that .25 of a second. it feels now like you dont get any time to counterplay her. i cant find any videos clearly demonstrating it, but alot of rivens just tell me "yeah its faster" and in my experience i have to agree

for a solid demosntration i got absolutely THROTTLED by a riven because my udyr pulled a bad gank, she is a good riven, oh look she got a free kill? now she can just straight up murder me because #balanced. but thats not the point. the point is that i USED to have the ability to vlad W before her 3rd q would hit in that scenario. however now i dont have that. multiple times yesterday when i fought that riven as vlad i simply couldnt no matter how hard i tried because the combo is that much shorter

thats firsthand experience from me take it as you wil

Bushy ÞussyNov 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

it doesnt matter how clearly telegraphed it is when you get qewaaqaaq she can simply gap close a massive amount of distance almost instantly by animation cancelling

as for sources, i only have what a few riven mains have said, and my own personal experience

before with the usual riven bs of eqwaa you are now stunned for .75 seconds before this meant that right before her 3rd q landed you could get out of with a dash or some such

HOWEVER. after they fixed the thing animation canceling for her was STILL improved because of how easy it is to now cancel AA animations this shaved crucial percents of a second to be able to then qaa and then 3rd q you without you having the ability to dodge it.

one credible source i can give is champion .gg which shows that after patch 6.20 (where the bug was introduced and then fixed post haste because it was broke as FUUUUUQQQQQQ) it shows a steady increase of win rate up to patch 6.23. now many factors can attribute to win rate however i am happy to think that as people got used to the new animation they got better with the combo and faster. and because there was less counterplay to the riven fast combo because you where simply stunned to long and the combo was to fast it allowed her to simply win more.

find a good riven and see for yourself look at the fast combo in patch 6.19 and then in patch 6.21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40GwynGw3fo

your information is out dated. They removed the "super fast combo". It's exactly the same now and has been for a while. I main Riven, and here is the discussion on it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/58x73h/wheres_the_red_post_about_the_fast_q/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/58awbl/patch_621_bug_megathread/d93b88x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/58a57r/riven_q_like_in_619_again/

The Sword SaintNov 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rìøt DonaldTrump,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzLVFFiX,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-30T06:11:01.431+0000)

your information is out dated. They removed the "super fast combo". It's exactly the same now and has been for a while. I main Riven, and here is the discussion on it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/58x73h/wheres_the_red_post_about_the_fast_q/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/58awbl/patch_621_bug_megathread/d93b88x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivenmains/comments/58a57r/riven_q_like_in_619_again/

Yep, this whole 'riven fast combo increase' thing is very out of date at this point and lasted less than a single patch as it was hotfixed multiple times on the same patch that the AA changes went out until it was back to normal.

UltîmaNov 29, 201612 votes

Riven holds a 58.43% Win Rate across 931 Games with CotC... yep, that's pretty much certified broken.

IA9hRfpP5qNov 29, 201610 votes

Riven has never been ok. She is not OP , she's unfun and toxic to play against.

AttackOnTeemosNov 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Whitney Houston,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzLVFFiX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-29T13:00:39.033+0000)

Riven has never been ok. She is not OP , she's unfun and toxic to play against.

Teemo Can she bunny hope on my shrooms please. My blind dart makes her ultimate windslash miss btw.

MLDzXnRRRNov 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Can she bunny hope on my shrooms please. My blind dart makes her ultimate windslash miss btw.

This sounds like a bug.

TheorcheroNov 29, 20168 votes

{quoted}

This sounds like a bug.

That does not need to be fixed.

SirHeavyScrotumNov 30, 20162 votes

I agree with this. Even when Riven is bad, I hate laning vs her. I wish they would rework her already but that probably won't ever happen.

Bushy ÞussyNov 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Whitney Houston,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzLVFFiX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-29T13:00:39.033+0000)

Riven has never been ok. She is not OP , she's unfun and toxic to play against.

all champions that i dont use but have to play against are toxic/unfun

those champions r not okay!

ForgiveColourNov 29, 20165 votes

Tank mains will tell you to nerf Riven not the mastery LUL

RalanrNov 29, 20165 votes

Dude, we tank mains know the mastery is busted and deserves the nerf it's getting. Chill.

CarameI FrappeNov 29, 20164 votes

It's the keystone, not the champion trust me.

If you give Colossus to champions like Renekton Nautilus Nasus , ect. it's downright disgusting. While I love it because it makes my mains like Leona & Poppy able to survive team fights now and dive properly, Bruisers and other champions are abusing the keystone.

It's like when mid laners abused item 3092 before Riot nerfed / changed it. I remember when Thunderlords (when first introduced) was absolutely terrifying and made champions deal far more damage than necessary at early levels. Riven's not the issue, it's the keystone allowing strong champions to become broken.

Also didn't want to point this out but Colossus on Sejuani is freaken broken. You can literally tank over 1000 damage if you CC with your ult, stacking Colossus's bonus armor tribute and go ham to your heart's content. It almost makes me think back to when she was strong with Cinderhulk only it's brief moments in a team fight lol.

Asayake 5150glowNov 29, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Caramel Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzLVFFiX,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-11-29T19:36:22.057+0000)

It's the keystone, not the champion trust me.

If you give Colossus to champions like , ect. it's downright disgusting. While I love it because it makes my mains like & able to survive team fights now and dive properly, Bruisers and other champions are abusing the keystone.

It's like when mid laners abused before Riot nerfed / changed it. I remember when Thunderlords (when first introduced) was absolutely terrifying and made champions deal far more damage than necessary at early levels. Riven's not the issue, it's the keystone allowing strong champions to become broken.

Also didn't want to point this out but Colossus on is freaken broken. You can literally tank over 1000 damage if you CC with your ult, stacking Colossus's bonus armor tribute and go ham to your heart's content. It almost makes me think back to when she was strong with Cinderhulk only it's brief moments in a team fight lol.

... Nasus

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

CarameI FrappeNov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

I've seen a few have it, and go APish ... not sure if it triggers the keystone but when they do Wither it hurts plus they're incredibly tanky too. I coud be wrong but it's from my experience.

RalanrNov 29, 20165 votes

It doesn't trigger the keystone. They are literally wasting it.

Asayake 5150glowNov 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Caramel Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzLVFFiX,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2016-11-29T20:01:24.928+0000)

I've seen a few have it, and go APish ... not sure if it triggers the keystone but when they do Wither it hurts plus they're incredibly tanky too. I coud be wrong but it's from my experience.

It doesn't tho...

Only way for them to proc it is hitting a red plant while an enemy stands on it.

They'd be much better off going grasp.

Guyy FieriNov 29, 20165 votes

You realize Nasus has no hard Cc right....

CowseedNov 29, 20163 votes

Winrate dropped and play rate also dropped according to champion.gg . I don't get what you are trying to pull but it better not be an asspull because that is a god damn lie. I know that it's an unbalanced mastery but falsifying statistics... shame on you.

http://champion.gg/champion/Riven/Top

Jad51Nov 30, 20163 votes

I love playing Riven, and I haven't thought about using this new KeyStone yet. Though from the looks of the comments and the post here it seems there is two problems that might need to be sorted.

1: The keystone itself. Most champions that can use this Keystone (in my own opinion) seem to be using this and are having massive shields on top of shields. Though I think the keystone is something that most people wanted, as well since people with CC are meant to go and dive in and risk dying early without a shield.

2: Riven. Riven has seen some nerfs and recently, some buffs. CDR on her ult was lowered not too long ago, as well as the famous "AA Break" which increased the speed of her combo. Maybe a couple CDR nerfs could help since with 45% her e is somewhere along 3-4 seconds (don't quote me).

Though instead of just attacking one champion, try looking at others abusing this keystone as well. Thanks for reading.

R18Nov 30, 20163 votes

She is strong with courage, that's definite, but you can't say that she's oppressive when you main Darius, who has a 56% winrate with courage compared to Riven's 54%.

Neeko N DimeNov 29, 20161 votes

I lane vs riven the same way I would pantheon. Cs and avoid dying until lvl 7 or so. Only champs I feel comfortable trading or all in pre 6 vs riven is Irelia or gnar. Colossus will be nerfed next patch though so hang in there xd Oh and with respect to difficult mechs... there aren't any. U do your combo and shield away or shield in for cs. Riven is an easy champ to play. The good rivens are the ones that know her limitations in team fights and laning just like any champ

SwaggyMcGhee420Nov 29, 201612 votes

You know animation canceling raises her skill ceiling significantly right?

PlanetWarwickNov 29, 20162 votes

Honestly doesn't make a diff unless you come out of fog

SwaggyMcGhee420Nov 30, 20161 votes

It does make a difference, at all stages of the game. There's no way you'll kill anyone in less than 3 seconds without canceling your animations. In lane, a doublecast can help you burst someone down when they're low before they get away.

PlanetWarwickNov 30, 20161 votes

no look you can catch up to any carry in lane, its about getting the cc mainly if they flash, well that 0.2 seconds doesn't really matter does it

also, i'm talking about CANCELLING and not doublecasting

SwaggyMcGhee420Nov 30, 20161 votes

Doublecasting is cancelling, and that's why you go in with e, then auto and w+q to get the cc from w, and lots of damage very quickly from the auto and q. If you're fed enough, it's not going to matter, but if you're not 12/0 coming out of laning phase and their support isn't garbage, it's not going to be that easy to kill their carry.

PlanetWarwickNov 30, 20161 votes

No that's not cancelling, it's just insputting multiple commands in a single ping to the server which makes it seem like a cancel but in reality it's running at perfect ping level ability/animation chains

SwaggyMcGhee420Nov 30, 20161 votes

It literally cancels your w animation.

PlanetWarwickDec 1, 20161 votes

It doesn't actually "cancel the animation" The w animation has a set timer, say x seconds. Then after the animation theres a cooldown animation, y seconds. Normally when you cast w, it takes x+y seconds. However, if you quickcast it, it takes only x seconds since it has another command inputted to perform before using the y seconds animation

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 1, 20161 votes

Except the "y" timer goes off at the same time as the "y" timer of the q/r does. You can also most and begin autos after your q/r animation ends.

PlanetWarwickDec 1, 20161 votes

yeah you can because the y timer is the same timer as used when moving as an adc between autoattacks cancelling is only when you remove an animation completely, like a q between 2 casts or the r firstcast

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 2, 20161 votes

If you just press w, you can't move or start an auto for the entirety of the cast time. If you doublecast it, you instantly cast w and q, then are able to move and begin auto attacks as soon as the q animation ends.

VesemirNov 29, 20163 votes

Same with Fiora. Animation cancelling is everything. Not as hard as Riven's though

Asayake 5150glowNov 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Same with Fiora. Animation cancelling is everything. Not as hard as Riven's though

I'd rather compare it to Lucian.

SirHeavyScrotumNov 30, 20162 votes

I'm pretty sure the only animation canceling you can do with Lucian is he EW, it basically takes the cast time off his W.

Asayake 5150glowNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure the only animation canceling you can do with Lucian is he EW, it basically takes the cast time off his W.

You Q cancel with Lucian the same way you fast Q with Riven.

Some animation canceling is about getting rid of the extra useless animation rather than the cast time.

VexingRavenNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You know animation canceling raises her skill ceiling significantly right?

But doesn't lower the skill floor. So she's still good at low elos and really good at high elos. Why is that even an argument? "X champion should reward you for having skill by Y champion shouldn't"? Ok, fine, I could accept that if she actually punished you for not being good with her. Unfortunately her kit is the exact opposite and makes it easily possible to negate mistakes just by having a dash and shield.

SwaggyMcGhee420Nov 30, 20161 votes

If you lose to a Riven just spamming all her skills without cancelling animations or weaving in autos, which I've seen many do in low elo, you just don't know what you're doing. All you have to do to beat her is just get an early wardens or chain vest, then outtrade her when she spams all her abilities. She's really easy to punish unless she's leagues better than you, if you know how to play the matchup.

VexingRavenDec 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you lose to a Riven just spamming all her skills without cancelling animations or weaving in autos, which I've seen many do in low elo, you just don't know what you're doing. All you have to do to beat her is just get an early wardens or chain vest, then outtrade her when she spams all her abilities. She's really easy to punish unless she's leagues better than you, if you know how to play the matchup.

How do you outtrade somebody who can CC you twice while you does her damage, then dash out of your range again, and has a shield?

SwaggyMcGhee420Dec 1, 20161 votes

You play aggressive for 10 seconds after if she combos you.

LaçezNov 30, 20161 votes

This always happens, keystones, builds, item passives are made for a specific group, which is in most cases for tanks and I for one am fed up of it. The basis of courage of colossus was designed for tanky, divers that are equipped with hard cc (usually on a low cooldown) that provides a lot utility compared to that of damage, e.g Nautilus, Shen and much more. It even compliments the mastery that gives 10% + 2 armour when taking damage from an enemy champion. On the other hand, just like Assassins abusing the tank builds that have low relative costs compared to other builds; any champion such as Riven that utilises spammable hard CC with ridiculous mobility and can still build damage to compliment their ratios is game breaking and unhealthy. Riven can deal all her damage without retaliation in most cases but now this gives her the ability to go balls deep and not give two shits about it, the same goes for Yasuo as they already both have shields and or a bloody windwall. Yasuo also has insane mobility with his e giving him dashes equal to that of the amount of enemy minions in a lane with double crit and a knockup to trigger the colossus. I find it hard to believe that Riot would just let this slip through into preseason without really thinking of the strengths it would give to champions such as Riven. They need to find a way of making sure that this keystone can be used well in a healthy state for the game while still giving people options to choose it if they wish. This way it doesn't feel restricting, but rather you are able to weigh up the costs of choosing this keystone for a champ it wasn't designed for (if you choose to do so) and to sacrifice maybe it's full potential if you choose full damage (which would result in a much weaker shield), as (and I'm sure a lot of you would agree) banning certain champions from using for e.g. a keystone would feel unfair and as though the game is making choices for you.

I guess a balance change for colossus would be to have the shield scale from 20-150 (based on level), have the %max health that is converted into a shield lowered to 2% from 7%, but to add 10% of bonus health per nearby enemy champion (from items / passives e.g Chogath 's ult / Runes) converted into a shield for the same duration of 4 seconds. This way colossus won't overwhelming in the early game and would allow room for normal trading. If champions (e.g Riven) decide to build damage they would lose a large and useful portion of the keystone's effectiveness from the bonus health they should be building to work with the Keystone, however building health would allow you to provide utility and be tanky at a cost of damage, this way you can choose between playstyles and keep the game balanced.

I'll give an example of how it'll work with Riven at full build with two scenarios (level 18 with 5 nearby enemy champions, ignoring runes both 2000 hp [+items that may grant health]) --> 150 + (2% x target's health) + no. nearby enemy champs(10% x bonus health) Scenario 1.

Riven (somewhat full damage with colossus) item 3142 item 3074 item 3036 item 3158 item 3812 item 3031 It would still grant a shield but since none of that items grant health Riven would receive 150 + (2% x 2000) + 5(%10 x 0) granting a shield for 4 seconds of only 190, which is negligible if not useless late game and a waste of a Keystone. Scenario 2.

(Stacking health + a bit of damage) Triggering colossus would grant a shield = 150 + (2% x 2000) +5(10% x 2550) = 1465 shield - A significantly greater shield than that of full damage Riven, where in this case this build only grants +85 AD, still sacrificing a large portion of damage to compliment the Keystone, again keeping the early game fair and able to allow fair fights.

Obviously I can't test this out and figures may need adjusting but regardless it is a good place to start and it would work for a lot of the champions in a similar situation such as Riven's...

The Sword SaintNov 30, 20162 votes

Wtf are these garbage riven builds. Infinity edge? Huge hp stacking?

These are extremly shitty. Not being rude but please don't make suggestions for balance if you don't have even a basic understanding of how a champions item builds or kit work, or even items in general in league.

LaçezDec 1, 20161 votes

The idea wasn't for the optimum Riven build for full damage or even a tank based build, but rather to just showcase the difference in how each build affects the Keystone. Obviously no one would really build this in a game for Riven, it just shows the changes it has to Colossus and that was it. If you just look at the calculations and actually read through it, you would see what I mean...