Huge Taliyah changes, almost a rework, on the PBE.

Snowman Arc··3 votes·7,845 views

So, Riot decides to go through with some Taliyah changes which are gonna almost completely overhaul her.

Current changes grant her +15 base MS and more HP, 40% MS from the passive which is on a 2 second combat lock out instead of 5. So far, these are huge buffs, it will help her with mobility, escaping and chasing immensely.

The big changes are on her Q. The CD is down early, same at max rank. Worked Ground Q no longer costs mana (actually refunds 100% of the mana spent) but is now a single target ability, and that's huge. I'll come back to this in a bit.

Other changes are: Her W is now a 12 second CD instead of a 16-11 scaling, which is great, it really helps her early game. Also, early game E is nerfed by 20 damage, going back to the same damage at max rank. Also, her ult's wall only stays up for 5 seconds now at all ranks, which is also quite important for late game siege scenarios. Early game isn't as impactful though. So, her W is far stronger now with the reduced CD, seeing how it's maxed last as well. Her E damage nerf isn't as big, since it's maxed second. Her passive change is quite strong.

But let's come back to her Q and explain why it's a huge change, basically making her a new champion. Taliyah's strength is her early waveclear and lane pressure, that allows her to have priority. Now, if Q will be single target, it takes all that away. She's no longer a wave clear machine and someone has to wonder, how is she gonna wave clear now? I mean, she's not an assassin to be lacking wave clear. She's a control mage, and all control mages have some sort of good AoE spell to wave clear. Viktor, Lux, Ahri, Orianna, Syndra. What will Taliyah have now? Her E won't be effective waveclear, same as her W. Her Q is what defines Taliyah, and taking that away makes her a completely new champion, and I have to wonder how effective she will be. After all, if she can't use that early pressure to waveclear and roam, then what is her role in a team?

19 Comments

DW Diana4 votes

So they've removed the splash damage from her q completely?

Zane Zephyr1 votes

yep

Threaded Volley (Q) Cooldown lowered from 11/9/7/5/3 to 9/7.5/6/4.5/3 Worked ground cast mana refund increased from 50% to 100% [Removed] Taliyah no longer gains movement speed on Worked Ground. [Removed] Threaded Volley no longer deals AOE damage. [Changed Effect] Minions no longer take reduced damage from additional rocks. Tooltip updated: "Hurls 5 rocks in a direction, each dealing 70/95/120/145/170 (+45% AP) magic damage. Subsequent hits on the same champion deal 60% reduced damage. Creates Worked Ground for 120 seconds. Casting Threaded Volley on Worked Ground only hurls one rock but refunds 100% of its mana cost.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

Looks like a lot of nerfs to me. It's not a rework though.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Well, it's probably gonna play her entire play style, which almost seems like a rework.

LilBadWitch2 votes

These changes look like a win for the average solo-Q Taliyah, and a nerf to pro-play / super-high elo Taliyah. I think that's a positive.

Aerial Queen Liz1 votes

If worked ground Q refunds mana and has a low cooldown, I wouldn't say her waveclear will suck...but yeah, nothing compared to her old waveclear. This means pushing the wave is harder for her, but roaming is faster and easier afterwards.

Snowman Arc1 votes

It will suck. She basically gets 1/3 of her previous damage when hitting any minion line, and even less if she W's them back together. It will only maybe be ok when the Q cd is 3 seconds at max rank where she can maybe spam it. Sure, her roaming might be slightly improved, but I really wonder how she will do vs other strong wave clearers in mid lane.

Aerial Queen Liz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wnywATA2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-18T09:13:35.846+0000)

It will suck. She basically gets 1/3 of her previous damage when hitting any minion line, and even less if she W's them back together. It will only maybe be ok when the Q cd is 3 seconds at max rank where she can maybe spam it. Sure, her roaming might be slightly improved, but I really wonder how she will do vs other strong wave clearers in mid lane.

Riot really wants to nerf waveclear on mages apparently, they'll keep going till Talon and Zed will have the best waveclear of all champs LOL

Dysnomia1 votes

The way they are "fixing" this game makes me to give a second go to DOTA2.

MooooooooreDakka1 votes

You're missing that they removed the reduced damage on successive hits against minions, hitting 3 minions with all 5 rocks is 780% damage on live vs 500% on pbe or 520% vs 500% on 2 minions.

Snowman Arc1 votes

You still need to cast a non-worked ground Q 3 times to clear 3 minions. You need 6 for the whole wave. There's not enough space in lane to do that, and it's gonna take way too long waiting for the cooldowns as well.

MooooooooreDakka1 votes

If it does more damage than the minion has health then any excess shots are probably either going to hit another melee minion or one of the ranged minions behind the minion you were hitting.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Oh yeah, I completely missed that. This way, it will probably work out better then. I guess we're gonna wait and see.

nm10101 votes

how is she gonna wave clear now?

E max used to be viable, I imagine that will come back if these changes go through.

Edit: You missed a part

[Changed Effect] Minions no longer take reduced damage from additional rocks.

She can push fine.

Double edit: They removed the reduced damage on q vs monsters as well, her jungle farming + dragon/baron taking got even better lol.

Teridax681 votes

I'm not a Taliyah main, but in my opinion, Taliyah's identity as a waveclear mage came mostly after her release, when originally she was intended to be a choke point-focused control mage. She has a fair amount of CC and zone control, yet that kinda took a back seat when people realized she was really good at just clearing waves, roaming to another lane, and clearing there as well. More generally, having great waveclear and roaming tends to break the rules of competitive mid lane, because most champions there usually only get to pick one or the other, and having both creates an insane amount of pressure at all times. If Taliyah were particularly lacking in some other aspect, such as damage or CC, then it could be more justifiable, but as it stands she has both of those as well. Effectively, Taliyah has a bit of everything in good amounts, which is why she's been a competitive mainstay. In this respect, it might be good to make her one of the few mages who isn't good at waveclear, particularly since it would establish clearer tradeoffs when picking her against another control mage, particularly since no other champion in that subset roams as well as she does.

FridgesArePpl21 votes

Seems like a buff for 99% of players and a nerf in pro/challenger play. Makes sense to me.

Radiation xD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wnywATA2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-18T09:05:29.760+0000)

So, Riot decides to go through with some Taliyah changes which are gonna almost completely overhaul her.

Current changes grant her +15 base MS and more HP, 40% MS from the passive which is on a 2 second combat lock out instead of 5. So far, these are huge buffs, it will help her with mobility, escaping and chasing immensely.

The big changes are on her Q. The CD is down early, same at max rank. Worked Ground Q no longer costs mana (actually refunds 100% of the mana spent) but is now a single target ability, and that's huge. I'll come back to this in a bit.

Other changes are: Her W is now a 12 second CD instead of a 16-11 scaling, which is great, it really helps her early game. Also, early game E is nerfed by 20 damage, going back to the same damage at max rank. Also, her ult's wall only stays up for 5 seconds now at all ranks, which is also quite important for late game siege scenarios. Early game isn't as impactful though. So, her W is far stronger now with the reduced CD, seeing how it's maxed last as well. Her E damage nerf isn't as big, since it's maxed second. Her passive change is quite strong.

But let's come back to her Q and explain why it's a huge change, basically making her a new champion. Taliyah's strength is her early waveclear and lane pressure, that allows her to have priority. Now, if Q will be single target, it takes all that away. She's no longer a wave clear machine and someone has to wonder, how is she gonna wave clear now? I mean, she's not an assassin to be lacking wave clear. She's a control mage, and all control mages have some sort of good AoE spell to wave clear. Viktor, Lux, Ahri, Orianna, Syndra. What will Taliyah have now? Her E won't be effective waveclear, same as her W. Her Q is what defines Taliyah, and taking that away makes her a completely new champion, and I have to wonder how effective she will be. After all, if she can't use that early pressure to waveclear and roam, then what is her role in a team?

Honestly, as a Taliyah main, this is kind of annoying to read. I've searched for this rework after I heard about it, and realized it was somewhat of a nerf to the champion, as she won't get lane priority as easily. Her Q being a single target, she can abuse early without worrying about mana, and instead of pushing the wave, allow it to push to her, and deny CS, since her Q isn't receiving damage reduction.

PointBlankPeriod1 votes

Right now taliyah can hyperclear all she wants and with the Q change she will only be able to do this without worked ground, taking away a bit of her intense early pressure and roaming. She will still have good waveclear to roam but she won't be able to abuse that

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