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Do you know what will be more toxic than Zed in patch 8.11?

Snowman Arc··58 votes·16,314 views

A Zed that will be buying Sterak's Gage. Since the item will now grant bonus AD, all of Zed's abilities will be getting increased damage by it, while also making him extremely tanky. Seeing how he will only be staying in the middle of the focus for 2-3 seconds, it's basically certain that with a Sterak's Gage, he will never be bursted down to death, making his already quite safe all ins even safer.

What really makes me shake is what happens if this item will push Zed into a more tanky, yet still heavy damage direction. We have seen some iterations of tank Zeds in the past, but what about a build that involves a Titanic Hydra with Black Cleaver and Sterak's Gage? At the moment, Zed is already over killing his squishy targets in a 1v1 scenario, so sacrificing some damage in order to get tankier shouldn't really an issue.

I do believe that Riot doesn't take this whole Sterak's Gage change seriously, and it's a huge change. A lot of AD assassins have bonus AD scalings, and making such a big change to this item can have huge implications.

Alongside Zed, Jarvan can now abuse this item as well, to make him tanky while buffing his ability damage. KhaZix wil be a terror, Lee gets buffed, along with Nocturne, Pantheon, Renekton and Talon. All these champions have very big bonus AD ratios and now they will essentially get a new item that will grant them a lot of bonus AD, while also making them extremely tanky.

I can't imagine how oppressive it will be to play against any of those champions, when they will have a Duskblade, Cleaver, Sterak's and GA. Like, tons of damage, tons of tankiness and a lot of CDR. I hope this doesn't break the game.

Meanwhile, Triforce users....

63 Comments

Ifneth25 votes

You would think, but the numbers and slots don’t work out. First, let’s consider the standard Zed build.

item 3142 item 3111 item 3147 item 3071 item 3026 item 3156

It gives him lethality, shred, AD, HP, Armor, Magic Resistance, a Revive, and the Lifeline and Lifegrip passives. For Sterak’s Gage to become meta on Zed, it would have to replace one of the items in this build and offer something better.

Your argument is that Zed could replace some of his damage with tankiness, still kill his targets, and escape safely. That makes Duskblade or Ghostblade the item to replace, since Zed wouldn’t want to lose the HP, resistances, or passives offered by his non-lethality items.

However, those two items are usually bought early, and replacing one would mean reducing his snowball. But let’s say that’s alright because he does too much damage. The problem is that Lifeline from Sterak’s Gage doesn’t stack with that of Maw of Malmortius, reducing his slot and gold efficiency.

But the problems don’t stop there. Sterak’s Gage doesn’t offer Zed enough of the stats he wants. At level 1, it would grant 32 AD. At level 18, long after Zed would have fallen off, if would grant 62 AD. That’s only 7 more AD than a Ghostblade or Duskblade offers right away. It also offers no cooldown reduction, leaving Zed with 30% rather than 40% CDR from items. Finally, Zed doesn’t build much bonus health. The Lifeline shield would be ~300 from the item itself and ~700 if he also built Cleaver. It’s not much once you consider that he would have to take a lot of damage, without getting killed later anyway, to even make use of the passive for which he paid and to which he devoted a slot.

So no, I doubt that GB + SG + TH will be the new meta for Zed.

AnubissWarior3 votes

replace boots, tenacity is useless anyway, and you get mr from maw

Ifneth5 votes

Say what you will about Tenacity, but losing 40 MS on a champion that has to chase his enemies would be noticeable. He’d have to surprise them and use his gap closer, or else they would just stand back and poke him down.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Why not ditch maw later on, or ghostblade, and grab sterak instead of either?

If i recall right then most Zed players usually just buy hexdrinker and leave it until its their final item left, at that point sterak will be more useful than it.

Ifneth1 votes

You would think so, but by full build the squishies would have enough armor for Zed to need his Lethality to kill them quickly enough to escape their teammates.

Maybe in some crazy-late game teamfighting build, he could replace Ghostblade and Duskblade with Sterak’s and Lord Dominik’s Regards.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

You would think so, but by full build the squishies would have enough armor for Zed to need his Lethality to kill them quickly enough to escape their teammates.

Maybe in some crazy-late game teamfighting build, he could replace Ghostblade and Duskblade with Sterak’s and Lord Dominik’s Regards.

So....replace the maw? It doesnt give lethality.

Ifneth1 votes

But then he’s got no MR, and the mage will be doing true damage to him.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

But then he’s got no MR, and the mage will be doing true damage to him.

Get merc threads for boots and it wont happen......actually it wont ever happen if the mage doesnt go a build that uses both morello and void staff and sorc boots.

As long as he also gets black cleaver that build is highly efficient.

Ifneth1 votes

Morello and Sorc boots is pretty much standard for Luden’s mages, and so is Void Staff later. Moreover, there’s a big difference between having 40 base + 25 bonus MR and 40 base + 70 bonus MR.

You also won’t have access to the shield until you finish Sterak’s, rather than just Hexdrinker, which you won’t build until late game because of its base AD passive. Maybe, situationally, it would be better to swap Maw for Sterak’s late. But that’s not what this thread was about.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Morello and Sorc boots is pretty much standard for Luden’s mages, and so is Void Staff later. Moreover, there’s a big difference between having 40 base + 25 bonus MR and 40 base + 70 bonus MR.

Mages wont have their mana item+morello+sorc boots until around 18-20 minutes even if they do well so the chance of them getting over zed and doing true damage on him is slime to none....

You also won’t have access to the shield until you finish Sterak’s, rather than just Hexdrinker, which you won’t build until late game because of its base AD passive. Maybe, situationally, it would be better to swap Maw for Sterak’s late. But that’s not what this thread was about.

What OP was saying was that he was worried about the possibility of a semi diver Zed with the damage/burst of the usual Zed.

And its a very real possibility.

And what i suggested in the first place was to swap maw for sterak, you can just build hexdrinker first as usual if you wish and only sell it later for sterak when you´d usually buy maw and it wouldnt be a problem.

Ifneth1 votes

But by the time Zed sells his Hexdrinker for Gage, the mage would have all their penetration items built. Also, that means being without a shield for a long time or having to wait until he has enough gold to buy the whole thing.

Regardless, the swap would trade MR for HP and the Lifegrip passive for a thicker, all-damage shield. How would that small increase to survivability in the 6+ item late game make him into a bursty diver like, say, Diana?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

But by the time Zed sells his Hexdrinker for Gage, the mage would have all their penetration items built. Also, that means being without a shield for a long time or having to wait until he has enough gold to buy the whole thing.

Regardless, the swap would trade MR for HP and the Lifegrip passive for a thicker, all-damage shield. How would that small increase to survivability in the 6+ item late game make him into a bursty diver like, say, Diana?

Diana is kinda a joke as far as divers go, she usually goes glass cannon and her shield absorbs 1 hit before it breaks, even with high AP for do mind that at that point in a game everyone will have some to a lot of damage.

And so what if the mages reach their sorc boots+morello+void staff? As long as he also grabs merc threads it wont be a problem or make much of a difference. ' It ends up being a difference of him having like 14 mr vs 34 which is amounts to a difference of 10% damage taken which so far into a game wont really affect anyone much, the bonus health and the bigger barrier gained makes up for the difference.

Added bonus point for new sterak going to give bonus AD.

Then top things of with a spear of Shojin and you are basically insanely hard to kill as long as that item doesn't get nerfed hard as hell pre launch.....which hasn't really happened a lot at all in recent time for similar cases.

So lets say that zed if not having to get maw early can go like duskblade, merc threads, black cleaver, spear of shojin, steraks gage, and then either GA or a lord dom as it will give more armor pen compared to now.

Not only does he end up having a lot of bonus health while keeping high AD, he also ends up with high CDR, tenacity, sterak barrier and the damage reduction from the spear.

Along with the usual duskblade benefit, sure he might need more time to do the same job but i think he´ll be able to afford it and more.

Ifneth1 votes

The problem I still see is how Zed does Zed things without early double lethality. His win condition is getting so fed, so early that he can one-combo squishies under tower and escape before taking too much damage.

Being able to survive a little longer in a fight won’t help him unless he can use that time to do something. It can’t be assassinating another squishy, since his living shadow and death mark cooldowns are too long. Instead, Zed would have to escape just as soon, only now with somewhat more health.

The difference Zed cares about is the difference between a squishy who died and one who barely escaped—not whether he can tank one more skill-shot while sieging a turret. The assumption that he will always have more than enough damage is only true when he’s fed.

It’s not that I don’t see your point about Zed locking a lead in by getting fed really early and then buying Sterak’s and Spear to be able to dive the backline. But then why not take Black Cleaver and Guardian Angel for more guaranteed offensive and defensive passives than Spear and Sterak’s and no trade-off to his build?

Theorex2 votes

So it would replace Maw.

Maw gives 45 mr, 10% cdr, 50AD. + 20AD, 10% spellvamp, 10% lifesteal for lifeline + a 345 magic shield.

Steraks at level 18 gives 60 AD. A 645 HP shield. + 30% tenacity.

If we consider that zed is going to always try to one shot someone while he is at full hp.

60AD > 50AD.

45 mr + 370 magic shield. Varies in how effective it is. But it can vary from a 700 shield down to a 500 shield. Just depends.

I think both are now effective items on him.

I wouldn't say that Steraks is out of the picture. I think it would be good against a low AP yield team where he has completely dumpstered the APC.

Ifneth1 votes

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The thread was arguing that Zed was gonna become a bruiser with Sterak’s Gage. I don’t doubt that it could be a situationally better final item against, say, an AD comp as you essentially suggest, but the purpose of assassins is to kill mages and then marksmen. Maw is just better for that.

Hexdrinker + Treads offer 70 MR and a juicy shield that synergizes with Nullifying Orb, and they can be bought early, when Zed is still mostly fighting the mage. The combination protects against poke later. Getting Lifegrip in addition to Lifeline is a straightforward upgrade, too.

Theorex1 votes

The problem is still the same with every assassin. Once that gets triggered its normally a GTFO sign. Its very rare for people to stay in a fight unless the enemy is stupid low.

But Assassins are all in and all out. They aren't fighters, skirmishers, bruisers, tanks, etc. They are assassins. They get blown up very quickly. So Lifeline is almost never used effectively.

Ifneth1 votes

But you’d rather have Lifeline+MR than not, right? I guess it depends on whether you need a bigger shield and to block physical damage or not.

Sleepcoma3 votes

would have to replace maw since the passives on steraks and maw don't stack

Ifneth1 votes

Yep!

Hibeki1 votes

A zed with teo items can kill anyone in the game. His ult proc doing premitigated damage is why sterakes gage would be fine.

Instead of annihilating someone with WEQ electrocute, he will just mostly annihilate them instead and the ult proc will kill them

Ifneth1 votes

But then he needs ult to kill, meaning that he either all-ins the mage and gets melted while they Zhonya’s, or all-in’s the marksman and gets one-shot by the mage. If the marksman has Guardian Angel, then that’s the teamfight over.

Hibeki1 votes

If an assassin can achieve an easy kill on a non underfed target while also not being fed without ult, they are fucking broken. If you get a carries GA mid fight you win anyway, they have no adc for 3 seconds while you still do

Bishasaurus Flex13 votes

Am I the only Mage Main that likes Zed? He makes me hot in the pants.

Khristophoros6 votes

Yes. You are. XD

FutureCreator11 votes

I'm sure other masochists exist, try going to a BDSM forum or something.

Malicious Metal2 votes

As a Mordekaiser main I love facing Zed.

HeimerLmao1 votes

As a Heimer main I agree completely.

ZackTheWaffleMan3 votes

As a Vlad main, I never face Zed because I play top like a real man.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

as a karthus main, jungling and supporting are my least favorite things to do simply because my team goes apesh** when i even suggest it. so i stick to healthier alternatives like jhin support and teemo jungle.

Bishasaurus Flex2 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KP5Mz3HE,comment-id=00010002000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-22T17:20:15.145+0000)

as a karthus main, jungling and supporting are my least favorite things to do simply because my team goes apesh** when i even suggest it. so i stick to healthier alternatives like jhin support and teemo jungle.

Ahhh Another Karthus main.

Greetings my friend.

Theorex1 votes

As a Ryze main, I always face Zed with my Barrier and shield. Like Real men.

Ryusaether1 votes

As a Darius main, I laneswap with pussy midlaners to destroy Zed.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Never really had a problem laning vs Zed, I only have problems when I play anything else and Zed just crushes my games.

ProfDrDeath6 votes

Good thing Sterak's will not change in 8.11, then.

For that patch, I'd be WAY more scared of Lord Dominik's on assassins. 70.8 Armor reduced to 0 with 3 items?

I am 122 votes

Sterak's on zed isn't going to be too good since you build item 3142 item 3111 item 3147 item 3071 item 3026 item 3812 or item 3142 item 3111 item 3147 item 3071 item 3031 item 3046

Stars Shaper2 votes

Sterak's Gage + Dragon-whatever-Spear + GA = unkillable ADs

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KP5Mz3HE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-05-22T12:32:23.450+0000)

Sterak's Gage + Dragon-whatever-Spear + GA = unkillable ADs

Spear only works in melee range and on several opponents about.....so unless you team dive that poor marksman that spear wont do anything x)

Stars Shaper1 votes

I wasn't referring ADCs though, just most of the AD based champions xD

Thefrostyviking3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KP5Mz3HE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-05-22T13:52:53.503+0000)

I wasn't referring ADCs though, just most of the AD based champions xD

Oh.

Right.

Carry on.....its actually quite probable then.

big boi edri2 votes

item 3142 item 3147 item 1001 item 3036 item 3071

These items will probably be core, if he picks up item 3053 it would be for a final item. At that point in the game though he really needs it because he's falling off hard. I dont see a huge issue.

If you've got an ADC he's trying to pick with item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3072 item 3047 item 3026 he's not going to do anything anyways. Especially if there is a Janna Lulu Alistar Braum TahmKench Nami Soraka Sona Thresh .... or really just anyone who can disengage him before he goes full ham on the ADC. So long as the Tabi, GA, BT keep you from being 1 shotted, most supports can handle the rest.

Leonerdo1 votes

Personally, I'm more worried about LeeSin.

Lee Sin already builds Sterak's Gage as his third item quite regularly. And he has bonus AD ratios out the wazoo -- up to 480% in his full combo. So I'm expecting, at least, for Sterak's to become Lee Sin's go-to second item (after the jungle enchant of-course). And it's possible, similar to what you said about tank Zed, that we could end up seeing a lot of Cinderhulk+Sterak's+Black Cleaver Lee Sin that is both unkillable (because of Lee Sin's mobilty) and still does enough damage to carry games. He won't be able to one-shot people with that build, but he will be a god in chaotic skirmishes where he can setup his allies or chase down and finish off 50% HP targets, all with the safety of 1500 bonus HP. (Tank Ekko comes to mind.)

However, while all that sounds super frustrating in theory, Lee Sin is currently pretty weak, so I don't know if this buff will be enough to make him overbearing again. It's the kind of change where Lee Sin will definitely benefit, and if he were currently balanced or strong, then he would certainly need compensation nerfs alongside the item change. But right now he's not strong, and he can use the buffs.

I just hope that when I said "unkillable" that it was just an exaggeration.

GrReaper961 votes

Erm no cause hed rather buy item 3156? The passives dont stacks

DeusVult1 votes

Come the new patch Zed won't be building steraks. Zed only has 120 base AD at level 18, meaning that even when he is max level, he would only get 60AD. So he would spend 3200g on what is essentially 450 health. No zed is going to do that.

The changes that Zed will be looking forward to however are the changes to item 3035 item 3026 and the new item, Spear of Shojin.

Depending on matchup, Zed will replace Maw with spear, or just go early hexdrinker and sell it later for spear. GA cost is going down. And LW items will now apply to total armor, meaning that item 3036 item 3142 item 3147 will bring a champ from ~70 armor to zero. I believe it gets higher if Zed applies stacks of BC.

Danjeng1 votes

Sterak's Gage is still gold efficient on Zed.

450 health = 1200 G 60 AD = 2100 G

3300 G value. That gives more AD than BC or any lethality item.

KlydeFrog1 votes

No mean while ill just play zilean and laugh at the futile attempts to kill me

VoraciousX1 votes

Zed's AD is 63-120.8. This means with Sterak's he'll gain 31.5 AD from the item at level 1, while at level 18 he'll gain 60.4. He won't be sacrificing Yoummu's, Duskblade, or Cleaver, the passive is shared with Maw, so he can't pick up Maw if he gets it. This means he'd either have to sacrifice GA or Edge of Night for it, while also in that same sacrifice deciding if he wants to build it or Maw. I'm not saying it might not be good on him, but there are other items he might value more, and without building Maw he's likely not gonna be having any MR, and if anything, Spear of Shojin would likely be more useful on him than Sterak's if you wanna go for a more defensive build.

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