Phreak: "Typical ADCs are not required; remember when Jhin was the best champion at a time?"

Snowman Arc··73 votes·18,709 views

During his patch 8.9 rundown, in regards to the upcoming ones as well, Phreak mentioned at some stage that it seems like ADCs will indeed not be needed. In fact, he mentioned that there have been compositions where an ADC wasn't picked and teams were successful. He referred to the meta were Jhin was the most competitive ADC and one of the most successful, and described him as more of a mage-caster than an ADC, so this point was that a traditional ADC, like Cait or Trist are not required to find success.

To which point, I'm calling bullshit. Jhin is very close to an ADC. Not the super high attack speed ones, but he is an ADC. His early game consists of him getting his strong AAs off, especially the 4th one. His mid-game can represent something of a mage, to be fair, as he relies more on his abilities (W cc, ulti etc), but late game, he becomes an ADC again. Insanely strong AAs with an OK attack speed to be consistent. He has very high consistent DPS, an insane AD steroid as well. Therefore, no, there was never a time in modern League of Legends, where team comps without an ADC were successful. People tried it with Ziggs, it was played during some stage early in season 7, but people quickly realized that it was trash and only worked inside soloQ.

Like it or not, an ADC will always be required , even with the changes in 8.10 and 8.11. Their late game damage output cannot be matched by any other class in the game, which works as sort of insurance. If one team has one ADC and the other does not, then the best way to secure a victory is just drag the game to late and win by default.

I'm not saying that non-ADC comps can't win, I'm just saying that over time, they won't be successful. Cheese comps can always happen, but they rely so much on execution. If, for example, the Ziggs bot didn't execute the strategy well (hard shove, take towers), then it was becoming less and less important, compared to an ADC. Slowly, but surely, people will adapt to it, they will learn ways to counterplay that strat, and it will then just fade away.

Unless there's a huge overhaul in terms of mages' damage late game to even be close to that of ADCs, then ADCs will always be useful. It's no wonder why Azir is one of the best mid laners for years now, and that's because of his safety early game and his ADC-esque damage late game.

83 Comments

Disembark47 votes

He is talking about the time in early season 7 when Jhin would almost never auto attack. He would build almost full lethality and pretty much only use W and ult in 80% of teamfights.

This is the same time when Ziggs bot lane was meta. He was actually good in pro-play until the BorK changes (which let every ADC build bork efficiently - and killed Ziggs bot because he couldn't poke them down effectively anymore)

Currently Jhin builds crit and is more auto-based (because a lot of his base damages etc got nerfed since).

There are also reasons typical mages cannot function as a bot lane carry.

Mage has a lot of reliance on levels AND gold. They rely much more heavily on base damages on their abilities, and items kind of grow their strength - but are only half of it. Whereas an ADC can be underleveled, but as long he has the gold for his items - he will be pretty much be just as effective as if he was a lot higher leveled.

Riot would probably have to create a new mage champion specifically for bot lane. They would need shit base damages, but really good AP scaling.

Masala Chai15 votes

This is also the time that Lethality Varus was still a thing, and it was a thing in botlane too.

HàrrowR5 votes

Not sure why they decided to nerf their abilities in favor of strong AA damage,at least the abilities could miss or be blocked and would do less damage to tanks

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Half healthing squishies from a screen away

HàrrowR1 votes

Varus maybe,but not Jhin

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Jhin was doing it from further away with his ulti, and he didnt stop at half health.

Playing something immobile into him was almost the same as intentionally feeding back then.

HàrrowR1 votes

But its his ult,Ziggs can blast 50% of the squishy hp with his ult half a map away,i get that Varus had like 4 sec cd on his Q that could do that but Jhin ult could be blocked and it has a nice cooldown

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Ziggs needs AP to do that much, old Jhin needed like 1 lethality item to 100-0 another marksman as long as he landed the entire ulti.

Or, he could trade with them normally down to 50% and kill them in 2-3 shots from it instead.

Ziggs? Guy was annoying and hard to kill sure but he didnt become a problem until like 3 items which is why to my memory he never got nerfed, unlike Jhin did, repeatedly.

TwitchInMyPants4 votes

{quoted}

He is talking about the time in early season 7 when Jhin would almost never auto attack. He would build almost full lethality and pretty much only use W and ult in 80% of teamfights.

This is the same time when Ziggs bot lane was meta. He was actually good in pro-play until the BorK changes (which let every ADC build bork efficiently - and killed Ziggs bot because he couldn't poke them down effectively anymore)

Currently Jhin builds crit and is more auto-based (because a lot of his base damages etc got nerfed since).

There are also reasons typical mages cannot function as a bot lane carry.

Mage has a lot of reliance on levels AND gold. They rely much more heavily on base damages on their abilities, and items kind of grow their strength - but are only half of it. Whereas an ADC can be underleveled, but as long he has the gold for his items - he will be pretty much be just as effective as if he was a lot higher leveled.

Riot would probably have to create a new mage champion specifically for bot lane. They would need shit base damages, but really good AP scaling.

Yeah I mean the issue with that is its relevant mainly to the question of killing towers and the only real difference between Crit and Lethality is that Crit gives you Rapidfire Cannon. Rapidfire is definitely superior for sieging, but your attack speed is effectively the same even if you can wind up with a little more AD. In situations where you need to push though, the pen and raw AD of lethality will have similar impact to sitting on crit when dealing with a tower. Given the 1.0 damage ratio on towers vs the 0.5 (now 0.6) ratio mages deal with, even Lethality Jhin doesn't have a push pattern similar to a mage.

Ziggs is a wild exception given he has an on-hit proc that actually works on towers and an execute. No other mage has that kind of thing. Jhin can crit towers, tons of ADCs have tower on-hits, and someone like Jhin also does more per auto even compared to a Ziggs. If Ziggs was the example used for "ADCs are not mandatory for taking down turrets" there'd probably be more validity, but Jhin gets to use every advantage a normal ADC except you have less attack speed.

BestPudgeNA13 votes

{quoted}

He is talking about the time in early season 7 when Jhin would almost never auto attack. He would build almost full lethality and pretty much only use W and ult in 80% of teamfights.

This is the same time when Ziggs bot lane was meta. He was actually good in pro-play until the BorK changes (which let every ADC build bork efficiently - and killed Ziggs bot because he couldn't poke them down effectively anymore)

Jayce was the number one top laner, Corki was the number 1 Mid, Graves was the number one JG and MF was one of the most picked sups at this time. Teams rarely picked Jhin as the solo marksman in comps during this time you talking about a meta where ever role had an AA attack based carry as a meta that "marksman" weren't required. Even if you throw out MF as just a R+E bot you're still talking about marksman being not needed in the meta where 4 roles highest presence champ was a marksman...

Moreover teamfights basically didn't exist everything was skirmishes and split pushers was how most games were won. So Jhin being the marksman that could get to a skirmish the quickest and help his team out due to the long range of his ulti was the top pick. Phreak was using this as evidence for being able to "win a late 5 v 5 teamfight without marksman" to which i would call bullshit.

Disembark4 votes

Marksmen are almost always required - especially since pro players play heavily around baron (and ADCs are by far the best baron takers).

BestPudgeNA7 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are almost always required

Yes and Phreak was saying they aren't required. Which is wrong. He said teams could pick Cass bot right now.

Disembark1 votes

Playing Cass bot doesn’t mean you have 0 ADC though? You could play Cass bot and have Graves jungle.

BestPudgeNA4 votes

{quoted}

Playing Cass bot doesn’t mean you have 0 ADC though? You could play Cass bot and have Graves jungle.

No he said you could play Cass bot without a Marksman type, he said you "might need physical damage somewhere, But go play some Darius and you're fine"

LEL

Edit: The scary part was he basically said the Playtest/Balance team are the ones that made him think this was true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA8MjOpHuN8&t=934s relevant part Start around 14min mark

ShaolinToilet2 votes

Mf is a shit support in solo q

DlXON2 votes

{quoted}

Mf is a shit support in solo q

She was incredibly strong in solo q early this season and during lethality s7

Shinjusuke9 votes

She was strong, as she always was, because she's a counter to support Zyra.

That's why she was picked. That's the reason good players picked her.

A bunch of people suddenly playing MF Support without having a damn clue why she was being played as Support other than "wait I can play an ADC and pretend I'm supporting?!" was the reason she got popular, not because she was this "incredibly strong" support.

She was a counterpick, and a very good counterpick. Playing her when she wasn't a counterpick was just plain stupid, unless you were better than the enemy botlane, which applies to all champions in any role and has nothing to do with that champion's viability. Superior skill wins, it doesn't validate a champion for a role they are frankly not ideal for outside of specific scenarios.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

He is talking about the time in early season 7 when Jhin would almost never auto attack. He would build almost full lethality and pretty much only use W and ult in 80% of teamfights.

This is the same time when Ziggs bot lane was meta. He was actually good in pro-play until the BorK changes (which let every ADC build bork efficiently - and killed Ziggs bot because he couldn't poke them down effectively anymore)

Currently Jhin builds crit and is more auto-based (because a lot of his base damages etc got nerfed since).

There are also reasons typical mages cannot function as a bot lane carry.

Mage has a lot of reliance on levels AND gold. They rely much more heavily on base damages on their abilities, and items kind of grow their strength - but are only half of it. Whereas an ADC can be underleveled, but as long he has the gold for his items - he will be pretty much be just as effective as if he was a lot higher leveled.

Riot would probably have to create a new mage champion specifically for bot lane. They would need shit base damages, but really good AP scaling.

Azir seems like a good contender imo.

ProfDrDeath5 votes

In his Live state? No, not at all.

Live Azir is one of the most XP-dependent mages, due to to scaling cooldowns on all abilities but the passive, good utility scaling per rank on W, E and R and his soldiers' base damage being tied to his champion level.

A good contender for a bot lane mage, imo, would be Veigar - W only gets more damage per rank, E works quite well already at low ranks, and he has a mechanic that gives him damage scaling that is not dependent on level-ups. More importantly, his Phenomenal Evil stacking works on hitting champions with abilities - and two champions against you give double chance to hit something.

SKB Bad Bunny13 votes

Every role has a standard function in a team and while there are several options for most lanes, it cant be denied that whatever you choose, you need the consistent damage dealer in a team no matter what. The role of the damage dealer is key since its what allows you to take down enemies. Assassins and mages can do this too but ADCs are the only role that is completely consistent in terms of damage, they have no cooldown on their damage and are the most reliable anti-tanks. Having a game without an ADC doesnt really make sense, why would you not pick a role that does consistent damage with the only limitation being the range of the champion and how squishy it is?

Probably the only way to get ADCs out of the games is making other roles do what ADCs do but better, or simply having a meta where ADCs get denied so hard that they are not worth picking. As you mentioned above, that happened during season 7, the games were so fast paced that ADCs didnt have the time to scale, thus being replaced with hard pushers in the bot lane. Even when ADCs where picked, it was with a high damage support to apply the damage that the marksman doesnt have early on.

fatherdarius3 votes

What I would like to see MORE of (and keep in mind I'm a casual player, and rarely play ranked) is:

A) Having a consistent damage dealer is ideal and so most teams have at least one ADC, but also B) Having the ADC go 'bot lane' is not necessarily the most effective tactic available.

It's simply because I like variety.

Sure, sometimes in a pre-made I can get a buddy to play a Sion/Yorick (or Yasuo/Alistar) bot lane with me, and it's super fun - but it's not super effective.

I guess what I'm saying is I wish bot-lane-adc/support wasn't QUITE so influential.

Wasn't there a time before Season 3 when ADC's like to solo mid?

Ah well, nothing wrong with the game per se, I just like it when summoners switch it up.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

B) Having the ADC go 'bot lane' is not necessarily the most effective tactic available.

The problem with that is, ADCs are the least negatively affected by having to share XP. As such, they are the class of champion that is uniquely suited to go into a shared lane where they get all the gold.

If you want more in-depth explanation, look at my post history. There, this elaborated on in more detail several times.

HàrrowR2 votes

"The problem with that is, ADCs are the least negatively affected by having to share XP. As such, they are the class of champion that is uniquely suited to go into a shared lane where they get all the gold."

Its crazy how many people forget this is a game,people make this game and change it how they see fit,XP is not a limiting factor,you could literally just make a new support item that puts a mark on your bot lane partner which gives him bonus XP over time or for every creep killed or something,so if the XP is the only limiting factor i think they could manage to think of something

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont want adcs out of games i want them to do what you say Consistent damage from a safe range. But not have a safe excape and cc on all of them hard or soft because while soft cc doesnt stop ranged characters with equal range it does stop melees hard. They also cant be doing comparable burst to any other classes. Adcs are supposed to have consistent damage but they arent supposed to be the best at that either due to their Safe range Bruisers who fullfill the same neiche are supposed to be the best consistent damage dealers but just arent Consistent in output due to kiting and needing to be in melee range.

VICHEL CHAOS13 votes

Fantastic job at taking things out of context without sufficient explanation to twist their meaning. You either did that in order to manipulate his words out of him or genuinely didn't understand the concept that he was addressing out of sheer ignorance.

Anyways, because you did not bother explaining (or didn't understand yourself) what he was saying, he was identifying the reasons for which adcs were needed in team compositions and how to make it so that they are not needed anymore. He referenced 2 particular hypothesis that were making adcs madatory in compositions:

1- Late game teamfights cannot be won without an adc. 2-Adcs are mandatory for taking out turrets.

He addressed Jhin as part of the analysis that had been taking in order to prove the first one of those wrong. His argument was that a standard adc was not necessary to win late game teamfights and referenced Jhin as a period in which team compositions would not pick another carry in spite that Jhin behaves very differently from the rest of carries, saying his play pattern was closer to the likes of a caster than an adc. And he is right. His dps is far from consistent, he works in bursts like casters tend to do and relies on his cooldowns (reload time can be counted as such) for downtime. And hell, his attack speed is low enough to be counted as a cooldown too, quite some casters have abilities that fire off faster than Jhin fires off basic attacks and even if you dont count his attack speed as such his sheer reload time make his damage far from consistent. His point was that a constant stream of heavily consistent high dps was not necessary to win a teamfight, and he is right to cite Jhin as an example because he does not provide a such stream of damage. Hence, historically it wasn't needed and hence it is not the reason that adcs are strictly mandatory in a composition, because in the past there have been compositions which could win teamfights without the late game consistent damage stream that all other adcs provide.

Goodbye and have a good day.

BestPudgeNA5 votes

[{quoted}](name=VICHEL CHAOS,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ax8ILNdm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-03T12:43:07.014+0000)

He addressed Jhin as part of the analysis that had been taking in order to prove the first one of those wrong. His argument was that a standard adc was not necessary to win late game teamfights and referenced Jhin as a period in which team compositions would not pick another carry in spite that Jhin behaves very differently from the rest of carries,

You're talking about a meta when teams didn't teamfight and all 5 roles had a marksman as a top pick in the pros. As the meta when ADC weren't required to win late game teamfights.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Even Ziggs who has seen bot wins teamfights HARD despite not being an adc. A 3 item bullseye ult does 75%+ of a squishies health and he has consistent damage in Q. The only thing he doesn't bring is baron damage, but he also denies baron while he is EVER alive especially with how baron works now.

ShadWooo1 votes

Why you even bother talking to meta slaves? They are so deep into the meta that you will never ever convince them. Marksman + support in team is probably the biggest dogma in whole lol and also reason why Riot was forced to buff adcs hard with Stormrazor to bring them back - they were forced to do this by community and mainly e-sports gaming houses who refused to draft their best players around that time (which is something riot couldn't overlook as e-sport is their main income).

I played double supports in botlane occassionaly and it worked like a charm if you had one of these champions in team: irelia, jax, yi (but dependant on enemy picks), gnar, urgot, camille or marksman mid/jungle. Basically fighters who deal just the same damage that marksman can do but with offtank build so with two supports they can survive whole teamfight and also slaughter tanks. I played mage+support or double mages but that didn't work so well because mages are not doing damage, especially this season, most mages do 0 damage to anyone with mercury + 1 mr item even if they go full mrpen.

Either way, anytime you lose with such pick you hear "no adc no win" or "you can't win without adc **ing troll" or simiar complains.

Yes sure. There are often some limitations with these kind of picks. With double support it takes too long to do baron. With mage in bot enemy tanks are unkíllable, but these limitations can be covered by other lane picks or even pick you want to take for this lane. Brand is a support with high dps for dragnon/baron, heimer, cassio, azir is a mage that has high dps on baron.

Right now I play a lot of talon botlane. Had funny situation where we had late game teamfight in mid closer to their side. Their frontline (3ppls) engages mine frontlane (4 ppls) I am flanking and jump from wall to reach their backline. In that moment, e´both enemy marksman and mage uses flash towards their base and I separate them from team. At that moment when I am unable to reach anymore them I start looking what I can do with enemy frontline only to see that my frontlane which had 1 ppl advantage is already slaughered. So I ran and tried splitpush tower before they take free baron. We lost and it was because "no adc"... It always is... Top loses 3 towers and inhib and enemy got objective controll because of that, but if we lose its because "no adc", meta slave logic.

remakoro9 votes

They are trying to make it look like ADC are meant to kill tanks, towers and provide waveclear. Jhin are quite shitty at all those things compared to other ADCs. But in reality its just as you said. Its late game tool to secure victory.

SKB Bad Bunny18 votes

{quoted}

They are trying to make it look like ADC are meant to kill tanks, towers and provide waveclear. Jhin are quite shitty at all those things compared to other ADCs. But in reality its just as you said. Its late game tool to secure victory.

If you think Jhin is bad at wave clear, have fun watching him push the lane like a god and killing casters in the late game with a Q. Also his damage to turrets got buffed since the last auto crits the tower, he doesnt take them down like Tristana but lets be honest his tower damage is not that bad. And about the tank thing, maybe chipping down on a tank is not easy for Jhin but have a tank with 50% HP or less take a Jhin 4th shot to the face and ask how it feels :D

remakoro4 votes

Look at sivir killing casters and melee minions with one Q + 1 buffed AA. Or at cait. In the time he casts his Q and it reaches anyone many champions can completely obliterate the wave.

Yea he is capable of waveclear. But there is hardly any ADC worse at that than him. And those better are MUCH better.

To be honest i think i can take towers better as Sona than as Jhin. Even casters aint laggin that far behind Jhin at tower breaking.

His forth shot makes him able to deal decent amount of dmg to tanks... But nothing outragerous. Especially considering his AS and that bonus dmg comes as physical. Compare that to Kaisa for example. Her passive deals the same amount of missing HP dmg. Takes her only 1 more AA to proc it, she is capable of building AS and item 3124 for it and that dmg is magical. So even though you got urself armor in order not to die from AA it becomes completely useless vs her passive. Without it he would be completely unable to deal with tanks.

SKB Bad Bunny12 votes

{quoted}

Look at sivir killing casters and melee minions with one Q + 1 buffed AA. Or at cait. In the time he casts his Q and it reaches anyone many champions can completely obliterate the wave.

Yea he is capable of waveclear. But there is hardly any ADC worse at that than him. And those better are MUCH better.

Cait is on par with Jhin at clearing, Kog Maw is worse, Twitch is worse, MF is worse, Vayne is worse, Lucian is worse (assuming you dont ult the wave), Kalista is worse, Kai'Sa is worse, Draven is worse. This basically leaves Jhin with only champs like Xayah, Trist, Sivir being better at clear.

saltran5 votes

Cait has worse waveclear as the game goes on, her Q is a really bad skill at mid-late game, that's why it's usually played with 3 ranks on Q for laning fase and then you max the traps.

TranscendVirtual1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SKB Bad Bunny,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ax8ILNdm,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T11:18:49.574+0000)

Cait is on par with Jhin at clearing, Kog Maw is worse, Twitch is worse, MF is worse, Vayne is worse, Lucian is worse (assuming you dont ult the wave), Kalista is worse, Kai'Sa is worse, Draven is worse. This basically leaves Jhin with only champs like Xayah, Trist, Sivir being better at clear.

Kai'sa isnt bad at clears, your delusional

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I mean if you want to stand in the middle of a creep wave while being Seiged to clear it with Q. Go ahead. The wave will die. But so will you.

Snowman Arc2 votes

Sivir is by far #1 at pushing, which is why I main her. Next comes Jinx and Cait. You must factor in range. Having to use his Q on the backline can be potentially dangerous, and his AAs are not good enough to waveclear. Tristana isn't the best wave clearer either, because she must AA at least 2 times before she can take out some minions.

Honestly, anyone can be good with a statikk shiv. But Jhin feels almost the same as Kogmaw or something.

Rainfall9 votes

First when talking about jhin you need to divide him into 2 categories LCS Jhin who is an ult bot for ganks to slow down enemies and guarantee kills and RANKED JHIN which is a proper adc. All the item changes are buffs to jhin and he will definetely see more play especially in the LCS but that has nothing to do with him being "mage like".

JabaTheHat4 votes

He was talking about when Jihn was building 3 lethality items(literally and specifically Ghostblade + Duskblade + Edge of Night) and just ulting in teamfights, not right now when he is building crit items and autoing alot. There is a massive difference in how much consistent auto damage(especially to high defense targets) those two different builds can do.

You're wrong. You didn't understand the context of his argument and put another wrong one in its place to make yourself sound right.

But of course this is the Boards. You're getting upvoted because you SOUND like you know what you're talking about and you're complaining, even though you're just spreading false information and they don't realize it.

Snowman Arc2 votes

First of all, I didn't complain anywhere. I stated how Phreak said something which I essentially proved wrong. I know the context, which is why I made the post. I know it was full Lethality, when Lethality was actually OP, and which is why Jhin got gutted for it. He was abusing it so much and there was almost 0 counterplay to it. Teams that were executing the Jhin comp well were almost always winning. And that was bad, because there was no counterplay to it and rightfully so got nerfed. That was a game state that the comp didn't have the traditional ADC as the biggest source of damage, but the game plan was hard mid-game snowball and outpacing, while also having quite a lot of damage in other areas. Graves was the #1 jungler, who was also quite tanky at the time, if you can remember, while also having insane damage (before the nerfs). Jayce was also the #1 top laner, because he also got gutted in his mana costs. There was so much damage on other sides of the map, even support consisted of Zyra and MF quite a lot, so much so that the late game ADC damage were spread out over the team, while also keeping some tankiness, in the form of pseudo-tank Graves, for example.

Again, that was a meta that indeed didn't require a traditional ADC to work, but it was also a meta where Lethality was overtuned, Jhin was even more overtuned because of it, and team comps were specifically designed to take advantage of it, and also were taking into account other carry champions in other roles to make up for the lost late-game damage from Jhin.

If ADCs are to not be needed, something like this must happen again, which again, is a huge overhaul. Top lane carries need to be viable again, as do the jungle carries and that needs to be done over the safety and consistency of tanks. Therefore, you need damage buffs on carry champions, tankiness nerfs on tanks etc. It's a huge work that needs to be done, if you want ADC to not be needed. The thing is, at the Jhin meta, the non-ADC comp only worked with Jhin, because he was THE EXCEPTION.

JabaTheHat1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ax8ILNdm,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2018-05-03T22:09:37.963+0000)

First of all, I didn't complain anywhere. I stated how Phreak said something which I essentially proved wrong. I know the context, which is why I made the post. I know it was full Lethality, when Lethality was actually OP, and which is why Jhin got gutted for it. He was abusing it so much and there was almost 0 counterplay to it. Teams that were executing the Jhin comp well were almost always winning. And that was bad, because there was no counterplay to it and rightfully so got nerfed. That was a game state that the comp didn't have the traditional ADC as the biggest source of damage, but the game plan was hard mid-game snowball and outpacing, while also having quite a lot of damage in other areas. Graves was the #1 jungler, who was also quite tanky at the time, if you can remember, while also having insane damage (before the nerfs). Jayce was also the #1 top laner, because he also got gutted in his mana costs. There was so much damage on other sides of the map, even support consisted of Zyra and MF quite a lot, so much so that the late game ADC damage were spread out over the team, while also keeping some tankiness, in the form of pseudo-tank Graves, for example.

Again, that was a meta that indeed didn't require a traditional ADC to work, but it was also a meta where Lethality was overtuned, Jhin was even more overtuned because of it, and team comps were specifically designed to take advantage of it, and also were taking into account other carry champions in other roles to make up for the lost late-game damage from Jhin.

If ADCs are to not be needed, something like this must happen again, which again, is a huge overhaul. Top lane carries need to be viable again, as do the jungle carries and that needs to be done over the safety and consistency of tanks. Therefore, you need damage buffs on carry champions, tankiness nerfs on tanks etc. It's a huge work that needs to be done, if you want ADC to not be needed. The thing is, at the Jhin meta, the non-ADC comp only worked with Jhin, because he was THE EXCEPTION.

I mean thank you for this very reasonable and detailed response. But...

Isn't everything you said agreeing with Phreak? You explained in details why during a period of time in the past, the traditional auto attack ADC was not needed, in its placed mid game, ability focused damage champs carried instead. You gave the reasons and described the conditions under which it would work and why it did work.

I'm guessing you're saying a state like that is "not healthy" and needs to be changed? And after it gets changed the "stable, healthy" state of league needs an ADC to win? If this is what you're saying then I can see your point. If not then I'm just confused as to why you're even disagreeing with Phreak in the first place.

Slice n Dice em3 votes

who even listens to Phreak? There is a reason why he is not an analyst, there is a reason they always give him only casting role. He just spouts nonsense without thinking.

Cait Main3 votes

You seem to forget early season 7 when games were more fast paced causing ziggs to be picked. People stopped picking him because the game got slower not because it was weak. Ziggs mainly worked then because he had the strengths of ADC's of that era without the weakness of terrible build path. Its not the fact that ADC's are ever strong, its only matters that games go late and the items are good. I doubt people will just convert off of adc but the current changes look like they are gonna be a lot weaker if they build crit. The only reason I suspect we won't see a decrease in adc's bot is because first blood tower is easy to get as a marksmen.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

the "LOL Marksmen in 2017" Meme was just that..a meme

Snowman Arc3 votes

Ziggs worked because:

  1. he could shove waves insanely fast, especially if paired with a support like Zyra or Karma who were meta, and no ADC could match that
  2. ADCs were weak in general, because their itemization was expensive (+200 gold on IE and ER, zeal items were also more expensive).

Imagine more expensive ADC items, while also facing a champion that generally reduces your gold generation. That's why it felt that Ziggs was OP at bot, and why the meme ADC2k17LUL came up. Shortly after, ADC item prices were reduced, and their masteries were also buffed, so ADC became relevant again and pushed Ziggs away.

Tusutaki2 votes

Typical ADCs are not required? That sentiment would be a lot more acceptable if you switched ADCs with Mages. Its becoming more and more prevalent that tanks will soon replace Mages in the midlane and mages wont be needed. ADCs will always be relevant. Cant say the same for mages.

NekoniClaws2 votes

ADC will be required until they make a niche 'ranged AD' champion- OH WAIT. That's an ADC!!!

Literally ANY ranged AD is an ADC. And imo RANGE is important in a teamcomp.

You seen a 4 melee comp VS Illaoi? Yi? It's not PRETTY. What exactly kind of meta is everyone asking for? 5 tanks? 5 bruisers? Full mage comps? They can all be abused very easily. And that isn't just because of adcs.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

ADC is attack damage carry so it could have been applied to even melee champions like MasterYi and other "fighter/juggernauts" who are capable of doing physical DPS but with how range vs melee dynamic works champions that rely mostly on autos IF ranged will do better people are tired of "Marksmen" being dominate to the point where its too much of a risk to put a mage or melee champion bot lane since adcs are so grossly strong

Velasan2 votes

It is certainly possible to not have a typical ADC, it just isn't well supported by the current system. If they make some more changes that benefit other champions in bot there are other possible combinations that could definitely be meta.

IT3etlWEXJ1 votes

It's not the damage output that you need an ADC for. It's the turrets. Try sieging a turret late game with an all melee comp. That is the point in a game where even a snowballed team falls apart. ADC's have a monopoly on tower siege.

Snowman Arc2 votes

It's actually their damage output. Mages can take down towers really fast as well, especially the ones that build Lichbane. Sometimes, they take them down even faster.

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