Playing immobile champions just feels so powerless right now.

Snowman Arc·Jul 7, 2018·50 votes·13,561 views

So, I recently played some ranked games after a 40-day abscence, and I tried Viktor. I was doing well in lane, keeping up the pressure etc. After a point, 5v5s started happening and the enemy had Riven, Fiddlesticks, amongst other champions.

I gotta say, it felt like I was useless. I ended up doing the most damage from my team, but I felt helpless. Any time I would step up to try and use my E, I knew that I was in a big death threat from Riven jumping on me.

Of course, you will say that positioning matters, teammates helping matters, but that will get you so far. It's really hard to peel off the Fiddle ulting from FoW, or that RIven that will flash into your team and CC you. Even my Cleanse wasn't enough most of the times.

If there was a chance to outdamage the Riven before she one shots me after she jumps on me, I'd be fine, but, honestly, I couldn't. VIKTOR COULDN'T ONE SHOT SOMEONE JUMPING ON HIM LATE GAME. Yeah, Riven was just destroying me.

I don't know if I'm bad now and what not, but I just wanted to make this post about immobile champions.

55 Comments

JamareeJul 7, 201810 votes

There was literally a thread like a week ago that got like 50 upvotes talking about how broken Brand was. This place isn't consistent at all.

FlashesJul 7, 201818 votes

{quoted}

There was literally a thread like a week ago that got like 50 upvotes talking about how broken Brand was. This place isn't consistent at all.

That's because Brand can abuse the current meta of the game.

In all honestly, OP is talking about a rarity. Late game rarely happens, and that's why Riven is actually pretty weak right now. Fiddlesticks doesn't fall into the same boat, because his Terrify combined with his E's harass and his Ultimate make for a TERRIFYING enemy even pre-6. Brand reaches a stage where he's threatening at level 3, and level 6 his powerspike is massive. This is why Brand is broken at the moment.

JamareeJul 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's because Brand can abuse the current meta of the game.

In all honestly, OP is talking about a rarity. Late game rarely happens, and that's why Riven is actually pretty weak right now. Fiddlesticks doesn't fall into the same boat, because his Terrify combined with his E's harass and his Ultimate make for a TERRIFYING enemy even pre-6. Brand reaches a stage where he's threatening at level 3, and level 6 his powerspike is massive. This is why Brand is broken at the moment.

Pick one or the other, or don't make blanket statements like this.

FlashesJul 7, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Pick one or the other, or don't make blanket statements like this.

What on earth are you talking about.

Brand and Fiddlesticks are powerful because they're powerful where it counts. They can deal tons of damage pre-6 and post-6, early game and mid game, while Riven is more powerful once she hits her 4-5 item power spike.

JamareeJul 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What on earth are you talking about.

Brand and Fiddlesticks are powerful because they're powerful where it counts. They can deal tons of damage pre-6 and post-6, early game and mid game, while Riven is more powerful once she hits her 4-5 item power spike.

Then say Vitkor is weak, don't say immobile champions are weak.

NaymlissJul 7, 20188 votes

There are obviously exceptions, but as a whole his statement is accurate.

The reason brand is so strong is that HE CAN KAMIKAZE. Someone jumps on him? No prob, blow everything you have and you'll still be useful because of your AOE and burst. You fed in lane? No problem! Your passive and base damages insure you're still useful.

Edit: Obligatory the boards aren't a hive mind, different people have different opinions.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20181 votes

Most of the boards' threads are made by salty low elo players who got stomped in one game and just want to rant. You could say the same for mine, but 1) I'm not low elo and 2) I tend to think that I know what I'm talking about.

To your kamikaze statemant, reminds me of Veigar. Someone jumps on you, you just W on yourself and R, and you have high chance of going 1 for 1. Same with Syndra.

ThefrostyvikingJul 7, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Then say Vitkor is weak, don't say immobile champions are weak.

Except there are plenty of immobile champs other than Viktor who struggle like hell because mobility has become more and more abundant.

When your damage is centered around skillshots or need ramping up then someone who can jump around and in and out of your range is a nightmare to deal with.

Many marksmen are bashing their heads on a wall dealing with that, plenty of mages too.

Some supports as well, and oddballs like cho.

Z3SleeperJul 8, 20187 votes

There's 3 kinds of champions we refer to when using mobility as a disadvantage:

Immobile
Mobile
Brand

When one says "Immobile champions" they are actually saying "Immobile champions (other than Brand)".

StillHittinLicksJul 8, 20181 votes

Lol funniest comment I've seen today.

NielarkenJul 8, 20189 votes

Maybe because brand is brain dead with a overloaded kit? His passive was already tacked on damage and the "rework" just gave him more damage. All of viktors ability's have a delay with all of his bonus effects that he has to pay for. Brand just pukes his kit out and wins from stat checking,

JamareeJul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because brand is brain dead with a overloaded kit? His passive was already tacked on damage and the "rework" just gave him more damage. All of viktors ability's have a delay with all of his bonus effects that he has to pay for. Brand just pukes his kit out and wins from stat checking,

I mean if we want to ignore the fact that Vitkor has longer range, shields, and AoE stun to Brand's single target that he gets, fair enough. It is almost like Brand has nothing else going for him EXCEPT his damage or something.

NielarkenJul 8, 20184 votes

"longer range" Victor: 525 basic Brand: 550 basic Victor max range with death ray = 1025, Brands sear = 1050 Where is this longer range? Brands 3 stack passive and explosion does a total of 24-28% max hp damage im sure thats comparable to a shield that needs ap and mana to scale to even half of that. Did I forget to mention that viktor has to pay gold for his passive? Brand is the prime example of what not to do to an immobile champion. Tacked on damage just for the sake of it.

JamareeJul 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

"longer range" Victor: 525 basic Brand: 550 basic Victor max range with death ray = 1025, Brands sear = 1050 Where is this longer range?

That one is on me, I assumed that his death ray had longer range then Brand's sear.

Brands 3 stack passive and explosion does a total of 24-28% max hp damage im sure thats comparable to a shield that needs ap and mana to scale to even half of that. Did I forget to mention that viktor has to pay gold for his passive? Brand is the prime example of what not to do to an immobile champion. Tacked on damage just for the sake of it.

That isn't at all how comparisons work, you can't compare a passive to an ability, and hell, you can't even compare just one part of a kit, you have to compare them ALL, Brand gets his damage because that is ALL Brand gets, he gets no other kinds of utility, sustain, mobility, defenses or anything, so he gets a shit ton of damage, if you want to lower his damage, you HAVE to give him something else to compensate.

Fízz v2Jul 7, 20187 votes

Fiddle needs a nerf and Viktor needs a buff, that could have something to do with it

Snowman ArcJul 7, 201816 votes

I don't think that's the real problem. More like mobile champions have more damage than immobile ones, which shouldn't be the general case.

remakoroJul 7, 20184 votes

Its actually is. Fiddle is out of control and Victor is in the shitty state right now.

xxxMadLionxxxJul 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj2w0V5O,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T17:06:12.122+0000)

I don't think that's the real problem. More like mobile champions have more damage than immobile ones, which shouldn't be the general case.

No..no..no, Ad champs have more damage in general

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20181 votes

lets make viktor not be able to 100-0 a squisht with 6 items, after he punished the enemie's positioning by hitting W, used E Q R! (Because god forbid something other than assassins and brand instakill)

and then give him shield on his Q, cooldown on his ulti, and more placebo shit, instead of ACTUALLY GIVING HIM HIS DMG BACK

Beacon AcademyJul 7, 20184 votes

Equivalent Exchange

Theoretically if one has strength in one field, its because their aptitude in another field served as their weakness

Immobile mages had no mobility, sacrificing safety and roaming potential in exchange for waveclear and nuking power

A tank should have low damage, sacrificing power and waveclear in exchange for CC and extended life as a front liner

An ADC should have low base stats with higher ratios, sacrificing power early game in exchange for carry potential late game

Target abilities are powerful and will usually land, but in exchange they are short ranged abilities

Ranged abilities are powerful and have a generally long range, but in exchange they can be dodged since they are skill shots

Abilities with mobility are generally have a decent range and can be used for outplay potential, but in exchange they shouldn't deal out as much damage as a full blown ability

I feel like Riot has forgotten the basics of balancing honestly.

JamareeJul 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj2w0V5O,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-07T23:51:03.323+0000)

Equivalent Exchange

Theoretically if one has strength in one field, its because their aptitude in another field served as their weakness

Immobile mages had no mobility, sacrificing safety and roaming potential in exchange for waveclear and nuking power

A tank should have low damage, sacrificing power and waveclear in exchange for CC and extended life as a front liner

An ADC should have low base stats with higher ratios, sacrificing power early game in exchange for carry potential late game

Target abilities are powerful and will usually land, but in exchange they are short ranged abilities

Ranged abilities are powerful and have a generally long range, but in exchange they can be dodged since they are skill shots

Abilities with mobility are generally have a decent range and can be used for outplay potential, but in exchange they shouldn't deal out as much damage as a full blown ability

I feel like Riot has forgotten the basics of balancing honestly.

It used to be like that, then it was damn near demanded that tanks get damage, ADCs higher stats, mages mobility, etc etc.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20181 votes

what about assassins?

Beacon AcademyJul 9, 20181 votes

What about them?

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

whats the equivalent change on them

Beacon AcademyJul 9, 20181 votes

That would be the problem.

100-0 mentality gives them burst like their mage counterparts but with no drawbacks to their mobility.

Assassins should be about outplaying and opportunity seeking.

Not straight up killing people.

MasterDCloneJul 8, 20183 votes

You played one game after 40 days of inactivity and you had trouble winning. I'm fucking shocked. Flabbergasted. Stunned, shall i go on. Viktor is great at at counter engaging. Get some practice in, learn the meta, and then come back and delete this thread

StillHittinLicksJul 8, 20183 votes

Damn bro chill, Viktor is trash right now, look at his stats on op.gg, they're bad and have been bad for the longest. Look at the newest champ released and his mobility and damage. Not even Zed or Ahri are that mobile. Immobility is a concern right now man.

MasterDCloneJul 8, 20181 votes

it might be but if someone is gonna argue it id rather have it someone that actually plays the game not someone who's played one game.

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20182 votes

Wait a minute. Did you just call Aatrox....more mobile than Ahri? You do realize that Aatrox has not only a WORSE dash than Ahri, but his "2 dashes" are basically also on a 40 second cooldown as well right? You do realize that Ahri not ONLY has 3 dashes to Aatrox's 3 she ALSO gets a fairly substantial movement speed buff for just playing the game right? And even if we aren't talking about Aatrox and instead talking about Pyke (who is technically the "newest" champion) he has.....one versatile dash and a mediocre movement speed boost on a massive cooldown. Yes, he blinks when he hits his ult, but that MOST of the time isn't very relevant and could in some cases be a hindrance as well since you just threw a squishy champion in the middle of the enemy team.

StillHittinLicksJul 8, 20182 votes

Aatrox is not the newest champ release.. Pyke is lol...

StillHittinLicksJul 8, 20182 votes

Aatrox is not the newest champ release.. Pyke is lol. And pyke doesnt just go into a battle with the enemy team. He engages with his cc move, then stuns, or with the high mobility stealth ability he has. There's a reason players get an icon that tells you pyke is around like rengar and evelyn, because they're stealth and high speed and are about to focus someone. If the mobility was mediocre, then there would be no icon that signifies pyke is moving FAST and about to focus someone. Also, if you think pyke's mobility is mediocre, I don't know what to tell you. And pyke's ult is very relevant. Its passive gives gold to someone who assist and is an execution, that is an insane ult if you ask me.

My Waifu VanillaJul 8, 20181 votes

Pyke's W isn't very good. It rapidly decays to a minor movement speed boost and is maxed last. Also he ALWAYS has to use his E to get in. He doesn't have a way out which is the #1 reason he is almost forced to take Aftershock so he doesn't just straight up die while he is in the middle of the enemy team.

Another thing is I NEVER said his ult was irrelevant. I very clearly said the gapcloser part of his ult wasn't relevant. His ult is honestly the MAIN reason you pick him over another catcher support (which is honestly a better category for him than a subclass of assassin), but the fact that it throws you in the middle of the enemy team on use is MOST OF THE TIME not very relevant and is not "true" mobility since the only direction it can go is "in" which yet again is a problem pyke has since once in, he isn't getting out unless he leads with ulti due to his team doing all of the work and can E out afterwards.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20182 votes

What a stupid reply. I know my mechanics are not as good because I'm out of practice, but this wasn't a mechanics thread. It's about how I couldn't deal more damage as an immobile ground-skillshot champion versus extremely mobile, targeted-damage champions. How does that even relate to skill?

I know Viktor is out of meta, and that's what I'm trying to box with this thread. Viktor needs buffs, for one, for many reasons, and other champions need damage nerfs.

Compare the utility and damage of Pyke vs that of Viktor. Pyke has a hook, stealth, dash-stun, blink-execute with high ratios and damage. Viktor has zoning, and damage. Very situational CC, skillshot-based damage, no mobility.

MasterDCloneJul 8, 20181 votes

Immobile mages such viktor, ziggs, karthus etc are so reliant on landing their abilities for damage that if you don't your damage is negligible, and this all depends on your own skill and if you are out of practice then obviously you have a larger chance not to be landing you're skill shots. I play 2 champions in ranked consistently: Shaco and Karthus. I do play shaco a lot more but i'll play karthus to untilt and just get my head back in game. I know that if i miss all my q's as karthus i will get annihilated but when i land them i can outdamage most assassin's and carry. If you want viktor buffs say viktor buffs don't talk about all immobile mages because in my opinion most of them are rather balanced and i'm not gonna argue that most bruisers need nerfs currently.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20181 votes

Maybe there is some merit to being out of practice and not landing skillshots, but only to an extent. Viktor's skillshots are easy and hard to land. His E is easy to land first, but hard to hit second, and it is not up to you. Generally, being out of practice isn't reason enough to validate your comment, though. I could be playing regularly, and I'd still land my skillshots and still feel powerless whenever I get to play this type of champs.

WitchQueen AnnieJul 7, 20182 votes

Launch a W on yourself and throw down R. "Late game" Viktor's damage (if you build correctly is insane). If they jump on you to kill you but get rooted by the W your Ult should still do enough damage for the team to carry. You can throw a Zhonyas on top (just need to hit 3 consecutive buttons really fast in anticipation).

Riven doesn't have a lot of mobility without Flash. Even with it, she can't afford more than 1 Q and 1 E before completely losing 1 shot capability (with your Viktor Q shield, she needs 100% of all of her abilities to 1 shot if you activate it in time).

Fiddles shouldn't be able to get to you without baiting his own team if you are ahead.

If he Ults, just throw down your W and your Chaos Storm... kite around in it with your Q shields, throw down a laser and go Stasis if necessary. His team will jump in too and they will all get fried by your AOE.

Viktor is a Counter Engage god. He turns ennemy "good plays" and "good engages" into bad plays.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20182 votes

You do realize that even if I place W on myself, it takes 1.5 seconds for someone to get stunned by it, right? Riven can easily combo me down and kill me by that time, and if that's not enough, Fiddlesticks also jumps on me out of nowhere. You can't really ward the entire map, and you can't burst him down either because of Zhonya's.

So yeah, Viktor has great zoning, if he doesn't get instapopped by huge range engage- damage abilities. Riven with R can easily jump on Viktor and Q-W-AA-R him to death, easily. And guess what else. In a team comp where I'm the primary damage source, the enemy team is gonna neglect my other teammates and go for me and I can't really do anything about it. I played as far back as I could, but at the end of the day, I still need to get into Q range if I want to have damage threat, which means that anything that comes close to me will kill me, and that shouldn't happen.

5050BSJul 7, 20182 votes

Then you have things like Veigar's E that takes .5s? before it drops. ALL Mobile champs can get out of it EZ

Same with Swains W Morge Q Zyra E Even Lux Q and E and those are faster then others.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20181 votes

skillshot based mages in 2k18 LUL

Pandemic PunchJul 8, 20182 votes

Yep. Now imagine being an immobile tank while everyone on the enemy team has true damage.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20182 votes

I tried Shen after some time. It felt like getting slapped in the face, turning around to get slapped more, all while having hands tied behind my back. Even against Yasuo, my dodge field was just extremely useless. After 15 minutes, I just couldn't tank anything.

ShablagooJul 7, 20181 votes

So is it immobile champions or is it viktor? Can you mage mains just come out and stop this roundabout bullshit " immobile champions do no dmg" I literally saw this thread like yesterday. Yet brand can get my down to almost half my health with a point click e and a aoe w? Just say you want mage buffs, I dont think anyone would diagree, just make sure the really powerful mages dont get buffed too. SO buff things like vik, syndra, and ziggs maybe. Just say it.

Snowman ArcJul 8, 20182 votes

Yeah, buff all mages except Brand and Taliyah. Oh, Taliyah is something completely different, kinda into the Zoe realm.

Most other mages need 1)straight buffs 2)QoL buffs.

Mana problems, itemization problems, getting nuked by stealthed champion problems etc. So yeah, buff Viktor, Syndra, Orianna, Ziggs, Azir and so on.

ShablagooJul 8, 20181 votes

Dont agree with mana problems mages should be careful with there mana the wave clear was to good an tear was to much, getting nuked by stealth champions can be avoided if they itemize right and if they have a fighting chance. For the most part its because they are just straight up weak.

Again it has nothing to do with being immobile, its jsut that they are weak.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 8, 20181 votes

Thanks to that mana bullshit, manaless assassins are greater at WAVECLEARING than mages :^)

ShablagooJul 9, 20181 votes

Lol its a lie and you know it, just because you can't infinitly spam spells with no proper thought doesnt mean mages have shit wave clear now.

SithesisLordJul 9, 20181 votes

The thing is, just like Irelia, Riot nerfed the wrong parts of mana.

The problem with waveclear wasn´t Doran's Ring returning mana or mana regen on champions or mana pools of champions.

The problem with mage waveclear still exists, but since Riot nerfed the wrong things to try and sweep the problem under the rug, it goes unnoticed.

Lost Chapter made waveclearing without consequence, because you could spam, waste all your mana, but then get 20% of your max mana, which was already enhanced by 300 all back, only to continue spamming stuff.

Tear is fine as a mana item because it´s a scaling mana item. It takes time to build up and most importantly, it requires and promotes spamming to get it stacked faster. But there is a consequence. The longer you go without stacking, say, as you walk back to lane, the longer it´ll take for you to fully stack it. You´re punished for not doing what the item requires you to do to reach full power.

Lost Chapter doesn´t punish you for not using mana. Doesn´t punish you for using too much. You´ll just recover mana anyways.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 9, 20181 votes

and then you have tiamat talon clearing waves with w basic basic, or zed with a shadow behind, E the casters with shadow and melees with your normal form, Q all of them, basic basic basic the melees, etc